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they seldom had any to sell...

I'm not sure about that; my great uncle was a well known breeder between around 1920 and the commercial end around 1940ish? and somewhere we still have all the breed society yearbooks from this period. I'll look into this. Tom 21:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Upgrade on article

Article "feels" a bit too short and of too few sources to go GA yet, particularly compared to our other examples. I'd look to ways to expand it a little bit. The breed registries may be of use. Montanabw^(talk) 00:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allright, I'll take a look at some more online sources (including the breed registries) tomorrow and see if I can find some new information to add. I've tapped out all of my book sources and those from my local library, so if you have anything more in your (much more extensive) personal library of horse books, feel free to add. Honestly, a lot of what I'm finding is just repeats of this information...there doesn't seem to be a lot out there on this breed. But, as I said, I will look tomorrow and see if I can't find a gem someplace. Dana boomer (talk) 01:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found and added some more info (as well as correcting an oops I had made, saying the wrong breed registry shut down for 15 years!). Do you still think it's too short? I'm starting to run out of tidbits to add into the article... It's really not that much shorter than the Haflinger (horse) article... Dana boomer (talk) 18:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look it over. Maybe Richard has some UK tidbits to add also. I don't think I have much on this breed other than my general encyclopedia of the horse books, myself, most of my material is on light breeds. Montanabw^(talk) 22:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These may be sources that only repeat what you have, but check out http://www.suffolkpunchtrust.org/suffolk-punch/ and http://www.easterndrafthorse.com/History/drafthorseinamerica.htm Both have sections with some details that may be useful.

I also did a search in Flickr for more images, finding those that are cc-licensed and can be uploaded into wikimedia commons, That search is at this link.http://flickr.com/search/?q=suffolk+horse&l=comm&ct=0&mt=photos I'll try to upload a few of the ones that appear to be specifically of Suffolk Punches -- there are actually several great photos there! Montanabw^(talk) 23:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One more thought: As I did a little bit of wordsmithing, i thought, "how did they first get to America, seeing as how there are so many of them here?" If you can find anything on that, it would be a good addition to the article. I also wonder if the government of the UK still allows any to be exported or if they are somehow protected. Hope the new photos worked, feel free to trot over to commons and swap them for others if you like. Montanabw^(talk) 00:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Things are looking good, and I love the new photos. Very nice work, especially the lead one. I'll do some more work on the article, probably tomorrow afternoon/evening, and try to get some more information on the transfer from Britain to the US in. Thanks for the websites with the new information, I'll look at those first. Dana boomer (talk) 02:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

British English?

Is this article a case for translation? It's about a breed with very strong ties to England, and to my (British) eye it looks very odd to have an article about a native British horse written with "draft", "easy keeper" etc. No ax(e) to grind – generally I'd be perfectly happy to stick with whichever version is established – and I'd expect an article on, say, Quarter Horse to be in American. See WP:ENGVAR for WP guidance. I'd be happy to do the hono(u)rs if others agree. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's Dana's call as far as I am concerned. No biggie to me either way. You do have a point. By the way, do you have any material you can add? Montanabw^(talk) 22:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine with me if you want to change it. No-one else really seemed to care about this article when I was re-writing it, so I wrote it in the English which is the most comfortable to me, which happens to be American English. To be honest, I'm Americanized enough that I could't see what spellings should be British if you had a gun to my head, so if you want to change it to British spelling go ahead, but be warned that, although I won't change it back, I won't be of any help getting it that way! You probably are right, though, that a breed that is as British as this one should probably be in the British spelling. Dana boomer (talk) 02:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, will do – I'll check a couple of books too and see if I can find anything which (that...) ought to go in. Richard New Forest (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yeah, definitely British English I'd say. It's a pain for us Yank editors, but it really is best. (I have to do it all the time with bishops... I'm almost to the point I type "favour" instead of "favor" now...) Ealdgyth - Talk 01:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adding images

Found a Flickr tool that allowed me to upload a bunch of stuff from Flickr to Commons. You may see some things you want to use that are better than the image that's there so far. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Suffolk_Punch for the latest. (Still adding as I write this). Montanabw^(talk) 23:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use in drays etc

Thought people might like to see the quote from the ref I have (Hall & Clutton-Brock, p 233):

The Suffolk was also firmly associated with large arable farms on relatively light land, and with being kept in horse yards rather than stables.

In the boom years for heavy horses, before 1914, about a third of all the Suffolks registered were exported, and like the other heavy horses, a great many were sold for town use. Suffolks tended to be used as "vanners", harnessed singly or in pairs for haulage of light goods. The Shire was more favoured as a dray horse and this is why the brewery turn-outs today are almost exclusively Shires.

Incidentally, nowadays they can run pretty big – the first horses I ever had a go driving were a pair of Suffolk geldings, one of which is 18 hh. Wouldn't have described them as having an "energetic" gait, though they did cover the ground. That particular pair have apparently been used for an omnibus which weighs 3.5 t all up, so when we drove them in a wagonette with 8 passengers they didn't appear to notice the weight at all. It was a bit of a pub crawl, actually, but to avoid drinking and driving we got my then 12-year-old daughter to drive home... Richard New Forest (talk) 22:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! A pub crawl with horses! You therefore will appreciate this:Designated driver

But seriously, if you can see a way to work a little of that in, particularly the bit on exports, I like the info. So they were developed to plow light soil fast, not heavy clay soils?? Oh, and maybe explain the difference between a vanner and a dray... that is something I don't know a lot about, anyway. And as for speed, not sure what the USA "models" are like, but certainly the US sources describe them as smaller and energetic, sort of like bulky chestnut Percherons or something. Could this be because even more recent sources are still quoting Marguerite Henry, who wrote about them in the 1970s, or because we are putting a different breeding focus on them here? And is this an issue for the article itself, I wonder? (Full disclosure, I have never actually seen one of these, just the usual Belgians, Shires and Clydesdales, etc.) Montanabw^(talk) 22:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA pre-review

OK, most of my initial concerns have been addressed. So what else do we need before going to the GA gauntlet? My thoughts:

Fix Richard's ref to Hall so it's consistent with the other refs.
Review lead to be sure everything there is referenced elsewhere in the article, etc.
Wee bit of expansion on when Suffolks came to USA and when USA Suffolk society formed, seeing as how we mention when it temporarily went defunct
If the UK Suffolk breed registry is the oldest English breed society, (thus impliedly predating the Jockey Club??) when did it form? (Not clear from text, which mentions Britannica and individual horses only) Richard, can you help us with that one??
Why was the bit on "heavy clay soils" tossed, given that it was referenced? (Richard, was Dana's source wrong on this? Certainly possible, but...)

I may think of more later. That's all for now. Montanabw^(talk) 22:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have some tidbits in one of my books on historic and endangered livestock breeds, that I'll try to add in tomorrow. My eyes are shot from a day of wikignome work on bishops. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and technically, the British Jockey Club isn't a breed registry. Weatherford's owns the General Stud Book, (dating to 1790s) and I think the JC is around then, but I'm not sure that strictly speaking, either of those entities is a "breed registry"... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allright, I think I've done everything Montana mentioned. The new ref is fixed, and the lead should be good. I've done some expansion on breed registries and distribution dates in the history section, see if this works for you. If my source was wrong on the heavy clay soils part then I have no problem with this info being tossed...thank you for the correction, Richard. I still need to work my way through the two websites that you linked to above, Montana, and I probably won't get to that until tomorrow evening. Thank you all for all of your help, and if anyone has more sources/information for this article, please feel free to toss it in. Dana boomer (talk) 01:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

Putting this here in case it wants to be integrated into the body...

The Suffolk Punch bears a strong resemblance to the old Jutland horse, and may owe that to the Viking horses brought over in the early Middle Ages, when parts of England were settled by Danish settlers, whose horses may have contributed to the native horses. Other influences may have been Dutch and Flemish horses brought over by contractors working on dykes and land reclamation in the 16th and 17th centuries in Broadland district.<ref name=HistoricBreeds>Dohner ''Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and Poultry Breeds'' p. 349-352</ref>

Some more from this work will be worked in. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]