Legally Blondes

Massacre of Brzostowica Mala

Massacre of Brzostowica Mala (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This article is based entirely on an unreliable source, a non-scholarly website, "Electronic Museum." The author of the source, from which the entirety of this article is taken, is Mark Paul, a fringe right wing writer whose work consists largely denialist apolegetics for anti-semitism in Poland. This poorly sourced article reads like racialistic sensationalism (e.g., "It has been established that the leader of the murderers was a local Jewish man.") It is not clear there are any reliable sources for this alleged incident extant. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 02:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. This is a bad faith nomination (see ongoing arbcom). This is a reliable source (Institute of National Remembrance). PS. Can anybody find the proper modern Belorusian name of the village? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. —_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment How exactly is this a "bad faith nomination?" Piotrus never edited this article, and to dismiss a legitimate AfD with such a vacuous claim and a violation of WP:AGF is ridiculous. As for the IPN reference, it does not establish the claims made in the article (other than the statement about the investigation being doscontinued), and hence is irrelevant. The IPN is a government agency that has been accused of bias, and is a poor source for facts in any case. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 06:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
    • IPN is a reliable source (as agreed by most scholars). That a few criticize it, is normal in academy (just think about Gross, who has attracted much more criticism...). IPN does confirm that the massacre occurred.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. This is not a reliable source by Institute of National Remembrance. Attributed source of this information is Nasz Dziennik, nationalist newspaper, a part of Rydzyk's anti-semitic Radio Maryja broadcasting group. M0RD00R (talk) 11:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Nope, IPN notes that Nasz Dziennik was the first to report on the events, and this has led to IPN invetigation.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Nope indeed. IPN notes nothing, it does not say what its position is, IPN is not a creator of this information, it is just abstract of Nasz Dziennik article, published on IPN press overview website. And IPN did not find evidence prsented by Nasz Dziennik convincing enough to continue investigation. If IPN has no information to investigate, it is not a job of Wikipedians to make investigations of obscure WWII events. WP:NOR is still a policy. M0RD00R (talk) 19:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Have you even read the referenced text? IPN cites ND citing an IPN official. It seems pretty reliable to me - if ND would be lying, one would expect IPN to note that... And we are not investigating anything, just reporting. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
        • IPN cites nothing. It just presenting an abstract of the articles where activities of IPN is mentioned. Nasz Dziennik is credited with information at least three times in this thread. I hope you understand what pisze "Nasz Dziennik" means (Nasz Dziennik writes, that is). By itself scheme you are trying to present as reliable, when Y cites X who cites Y, is an opposite of what reliable means. Citation of citation of citation is ridiculous. And when nationalist newspaper is involved in this chain, it's just ludicrous. M0RD00R (talk) 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia articles should be based on facts, not assumptions and suppositions. According to the article, there is insufficient documentation and witnesses for the Institute of National Remembrance to conduct an investigation. That strongly suggests there are insufficient sources to write an encyclopedia article. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 06:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- VG ☎ 13:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Highly charged articles of this nature need to be based on rock-solid sources, not on speculations. The last sentence in the article indicates the the absence of such sources, yet all the claims before that sentence are represented as unambiguous facts. Nsk92 (talk) 13:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Delete. I'm aware of the difficulties in finding sources for documenting some events that occurred during communism, e.g. the Katyn massacre, but we should be cautious in advancing unfinished research. This massacre at Brzostowica Mala may well have occurred, but it's too poorly sourced to be included in Wikipedia at this time. VG ☎ 15:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Please note that I have copy-edited the article; a reliable source ([1] - IPN) confirmed that a massacre has occurred, and that it was carried by pro-communist minority members on the non-communist Poles. Due to lack (death...) of all primary witnesses, IPN however was unable to verify details to the extent it would like, and has declared that there is simply no way to proceed further with the investigation. We can discuss how reliable is this website giving more details - I'd guess it's based on the newspaper account, and that should be clarified, so the readers know what details come from IPN and what from the newspapers - but there is no doubt that the massacre of ~50 people occurred then and there. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per lack of reliable sources backing up highly contentious claims. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Please see my reply above re reliable sources.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• Keep as per Piotrus. Please, don't delete articles based on reliable official sources. Cite reliable counter sources instead. greg park avenue (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. Since Piotrus keeps insisting that this [2] is reliable source, I must repeat that it isn't. It is titled PRZEGLĄD MEDIÓW (Press overview). Only thread concerning Brzostowica massacre is a brief abstract of Nasz Dziennik article. And Nasz Dziennik is credited with it at the end of the thread. Nasz Dziennik is nowhere near to be a realiable source. It is a nationalist newspaper closely associated with anti-Semitic Radio Maryja. Only reliable fact that we know from this thread is that IPN did not find evidence convincing and stopped investigation, everything else is interpretation by a nationalist newspaper, which can not be trusted. M0RD00R (talk) 19:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Replied [3].--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong keep. The webpage of the Institute of National Rememberance is a valid source and those involved know it perfectly well. Tymek (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong delete. Per all arguments above. If information by nationalist newspaper, gets published as an abstract on press overview website by IPN, this does not make information any more reliable, because the source of this information still is nationalist newspaper, and not IPN itself. Delete per WP:NOR and WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 19:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. —_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Not easy. The google translation of the IPN source - which seems to be an RS - is not clear enough to understand whether (or how much) the IPN or prosecutor Dariusz Olszewski agrees it definitely happened. No matter the source of the initial allegation or article, that is the crux of the matter. It also refers to a letter to the editor by Olszewski. If someone can find this, this could give additional understanding.John Z (talk) 20:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
• Update. Found official IPN report from 2003, confirming most of the facts (Poles were massacred by pro-communist militia) at [4] (big Polish lang pdf file download). I've also removed most of the speculatory information from the disputed website.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh? That link points to a picture of two people sitting at a table... VG ☎ 22:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the number of confirmed dead and the amount of coverage this war crime received (half a page in a 350 page report), I still don't think a separate Wikipedia article is warranted. With the risk of sounding callous, it doesn't seem to be any more notable than many other killings perpetrated by communists and their sympathizers when they took power. I'm sure it can be mentioned elsewhere, e.g. in Communist crime. VG ☎ 01:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. The Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) is a highly politicized Polish government organization whose objectivity has been questioned on a number of occasions (see here, for example). It is a far less reliable source than an academic source would be (the IPN is perhaps on par with, a U.S. Justice Department report), and given it's controversiality, probably not a reliable source at all for a murky, controversial historic episode. Do we base historical articles on prosecutors reports coming out of a politically charged environment? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Be serious, how's an article in something called "haaretz.com" a reliable criticism of an academic institution? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
    • The "something called "haaretz.com" is a leading newspaper, as opposed to the anti semitic one cited in the article. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
      • See, Jan Grabowski. “Rewriting the History of Polish-Jewish Relations from a Nationalist Perspective: The Recent Publications of the Institute of National Remembrance”, Yad Vashem Studies, v. 36 (1), June 2008. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Haaretz is a leftist Israeli daily. Hardly a reliable source except for the local news and their own op-ed. Al-Jazeera would be an antidote to keep the balance in the region, but I wouldn't rely on it either. Actually, the media in Israel cover all spectrum - from ultra right to ultra left with all between. My opinion is, if The New York Times which follows it closely didn't bother to take notice of this, it's no news at all. greg park avenue (talk) 03:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Please leave your opinion of the Institute to yourself. It is a government-sponsored institution, which consists of professional historians, doctors and professors. And a note to user Mordoor - do not delete it, or you will be reported.Tymek (talk) 00:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Reply I've already left you a WP:CIVIL warning for your truly uncivil and onnoxious demand that I not express my opinions on a page where...editors give opinions! And my "opinions" were sourced to Haaretz and Professor Jan Grabowski. And I suggest you retract your uncivil threat to Mordoor, before I report you. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 02:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh you can report me. Surely you can express your opinion about the Institute, but not here. We are not talking about criticism of the Institute, but about this real and heinous massacre. Or perhaps there is a direct link between criticism of the Institute and the massacre itself. Then it is clear. Tymek (talk) 02:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

One person's terrorist is another person freedom fighter, indeed. IPN makes mistakes, of course, but it also investigates many issues which some hoped would be forever buried under communist censorship and ruffles many feathers. This makes it, for some, a very annoying entity indeed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

So you agree that the IPN is a controversial source. And I'm sure you are not inimating that critics such as Dariusz Libionka and Jan Grabowski were hoping certain issues "would be forever buried under communist censorship." Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 03:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - notable for being a massacre; verifiable for being documented in reliable sources. Biruitorul ^Talk 01:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
• Request. Could editors post translations of the IPN discussion on the article's talk page? Novickas (talk) 16:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)