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Edit this section for new requests

British Isles : Users User:HighKing and User:TharkunColl

This underlying dispute is related to Troubles in a way, so I feel like the remedies there could be useful. One user (TharkunColl) adds the term "British Isles" (referring, in general, to the area on the map that is primarily of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland) to articles, and the other user (HighKing) opposes the term completely and utterly, and they've fought battle after battle for months about this issue. They both have tried various parts of dispute resolution in the past, and it hasn't stopped them. The latest war at Wikipedia:WQA#TharkunColl shows how intractable the two are in this matter, and the sheer vitriol and argumentum ad nauseum shows that things won't change unless they're made to change. Therefore, I propose the following two remedies:

A) Both TharkunColl and HighKing are placed under 1RR on any article that has to do with the area of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland and the related geographical area.

B1) In addition to A), HighKing is hereby restricted from removing the term "British Isles" or any such related term from any article. TharkunColl is hereby restructed from ADDING the term "British Isles" or any such related phrase to any article.

B2) Any new account or IP address that starts these battles up can be placed under the restrictions in remedies A and B1.

I think we have a strong case for both.. A) seems to be necessary no matter what, we've gone through edit after edit war, because these two people can NOT agree with each other.. and quite frankly, the reason I am calling for B1, is to be quite even handed, to take away the reason to edit war between the two of them SirFozzie (talk) 12:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I sincerely hope we look at this very carefully and act with judgment. Even the diffs raised by User:HighKing against User:TharkunColl at the WQA, viz. European Green Party, Cup and ring mark, Old-time music, Drovers' Road, Derry and [1] and Saint David make it appear that HighKing is using this "dispute" (which I strongly suspect to be near enough artificial) in order to damage articles. In at least 4 of these cases, it seems to me that TharkunColl's use of British Isles was necessary to an understanding of the article topic. Removing "British Isles" in those places appears to be disruptive. PR^talk 12:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(Reply to SirFozzie) HighKing has removed the term from literally dozens and dozens of articles, both under that name and under his previous account, User:Bardcom. I have added it only to about 3 or 4, though have also reverted many of his deletions - especially those that degrade the article in question by removing useful and legitimate information. The area described by the term is not restricted to the United Kingdom and [sic] Northern Ireland, but includes the whole of Ireland plus the Isle of Man, and no other term is available in the English language for this. HighKing has repeatedly refused to explain his reasons for removing the term wholesale from Wikipedia, though he claims they are non-political. ðarkuncoll 12:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes to all IMO. Completely nip the problem in the bud. Viridae ^Talk 12:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Though the final one shouldnt used used to get in the way of consensus. Hence the specification "new" Viridae ^Talk 12:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I should also add that I have attempted discussion and compromise on numerous occasions. See, for example Wikipedia talk:British_Isles_Terminology_task_force#A_proposal - and notice HighKings' refusal to even answer. Also note Talk:Alexander Thom for an example of how, when engaged in a discussion on any particular article, no amount of references are good enough for him and he continues to revert regardless. Personally, I think it's unfair that I should be penalised for attempting to put right the damage caused by his single-issue campaign. ðarkuncoll 12:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

This ArbCom case has been opened in a very one-sided non-neutral way, and I would like to ask SirFozzie to provide, with diffs, the evidence of his accusations. Stating that HighKing opposes the term completely and utterly is wrong and I vehemently strongly disagree with this assertion. It is a bald lie. I don't, and I'm working at the British Isles terminology taskforce to create guidelines to usage of this term. In addition, I supported the use of the term during a recent edit war over the river Shannon. All of my edits are being reverted and being made the subject of controversy as a tactic. I have not edit warred over the recent articles, remained civil, and followed policy. I find it disconcerting, odd, and also one-sided that the WQA opened, to discuss Tharky's behaviour on reversals and personal attacks, has been let slide - effectively his behaviour is being sanctioned and condoned. If SirFozzie is referring to edit-wars, I believe other editors should also be asked the same questions - namely User:Blue Bugle, User:MidnightBlueMan, User:LemonMonday, and the numerous anon IP addresses - perhaps a checkuser would shed some light on why this has occurred. I'm very happy to be reasonable, but these accusations against me are the result of "marketing" and false claims by other editors, not based on fact. --HighKing (talk) 12:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to add that not only does HK revert addition of the term that TharkunColl has made, and disagree with them, he also removes them from articles TharkunColl is not involved in, and seems determined to remove it from anywhere he sees it on the project. That was the bulk of his editing a few months ago, anyway. He recieved a block specifically for this in July. These proposals seem fair enough. I am pretty sure a checkuser will not find anything amiss as far as TharkunColl himself is concerned. Could it be that more than one editor disagrees with HK?:) Wikiquette board is not the place to discuss sanctions on people's behaviour IMHO, it is an early step in dispute resolution, and as I understand it is just meant to alert the person accused and other editors to a person's behaviour and let them know more formally that it is considered bad form. HK has his own conduct issues such as templating people with warnings if they question his edits. Sticky Parkin 13:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I am also feel that neither Tharkuncoll nor Highking have probably used any socks themselves, but I feel that the sheer number of different IP editors who pop up and make highly inflammatory messages on a wide range of articles' talk pages about these issues needs attention. If it were possible, I would like to see a systematic investigation of every anonymous IP editor who has made inflammatory comments to see if they have been used by registered editors hiding behind this screen of anonymity to be disruptive and abusive. I think this kind of blockable behaviour may well have happened on both sides in this dispute, and possibly involving some old well-known sockpuppeteers who have been disruptive in this area before. They are merely inflaming the entire area. However, I realise that this mass checkuser action will never happen, but I think it is important to express a gut feeling I have by stating it here. DDStretch (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to draw people's attention to the comments and exchange I have had on this matter here. I believe some of the comments are highly relevant to the issue, but it would be tedious to reproduce them here (because it would also involve reproducing a message from Highking). A large part of the problem is the use of fallacious arguments (on both sides) coupled with a biased interpretation of messages and actions that attempt to allow the real underlying issues that need resolving be ignored in favour of deficits like "fragility" in other people's reactions, or that other editors do not work to high standards of evidence or proof. Both these problems mean that unless both editors can be persuaded to change, or have change enforced upon them, disruption in my opinion is likely to be maintained and grow in intensity and scope. DDStretch (talk) 15:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I wish the articles to remain stable & I don't want to see Tharky & HK getting blocked over this issues. The 1RR solution? will save them from themselves. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Conditional Oppose as it appears Tharky & HK have reached an agreement to halt edits/reversion, while Taskforce is in progress. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

If anyone is in any doubt about how WP:LAME this warring is, have a look at the history of Glowworm from September 30 onwards. I would add User:MidnightBlueMan and User:62.40.36.14 (which I've just blocked again per WP:DUCK) to HighKing and TharkunColl. There are probably a few more as well. Actually, thinking about it, just indefblocking anyone who adds or removes BI repeatedly without a good reason would be a good way of fixing the problem. Black Kite 15:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like that automatic block idea for veteran IP accounts, on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of IPs about, though. Some, like the mobile phone IP that I've blocked above, are easy to deal with, but others, like the Eircom dynamic addresses from Ireland and the BT Broadband dynamic addresses from the UK, are impossible to deal with permanently as the collateral damage from rangeblocks would be too big. Black Kite 15:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Before adding my comments, a couple of more general points - 1) Is this the right place for this proposed action? Reading the guff at the top of the page it seems as though it isn't, but maybe I've misunderstood. Is there a sanction already in place against HighKing and TharkunColl? 2) GoodDay, will you stop banging on about IPs at every opportunity. It just deflects contributors from the point at issue, as has happened here, yet again (see above). Take up your arguments elsewhere. So, regarding the subject of this "enforcement"; It's simple. HighKing is a tireless deletor of British Isles. The reasons he's given for removing it are many and varied. So far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong - TharkunColl hardly ever inserts the term; just one or two examples recently. I don't insert the term, I only revert HighKing's deletions when he has no justification for the deletion (nearly all of the time). I am quite happy to abide by a sanction preventing the addition and deletion of BI right across the encyclopedia, apart from where there's a clear, agreed error. I'd put money on it that TharkunColl would do likewise, and all other editors would as well; apart from HighKing. He will not agree to any compromise; he reserves the right to delete British Isles wherever, and whenever, he thinks fit, and it seems that no amount of persuasion will change him. Why then, is the "enforcement" directed at HighKing AND TharkunColl? In consideration of British Isles addition and deletion, and not about civility or any other side issue, only HighKing has a case to answer. Other editors are merely reacting to his continuing antagonistic edits. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the main sentiment that this is not the place to handle this issue, but I also believe that something must be done sooner rather than later. To that end, perhaps an Arbitration forum is the correct place to have a proper analysis done on edits and conduct. The recent examination and overturning of Sarah777's block gives me hope. MBM's attempt to paint Tharky in the glowing colours of sainthood, complete with halo, is comedic value at it's finest. You get a "You Made Me Laugh" barnstar! (ask me and I'll grant it, I wouldn't want it to be interpreted as a taunt if I just put it on your Talk page) Seriously though, it seems that editors are more concerned with making stuff up than with looking at the truth. How many times today have I seen editors (usually British editors) refer to me a "tireless" and my edits as being wrong - yet if you check my edit history and the articles in question, it shows that my edits are reasonable. In fact, measured against any yardstick you'd care to put up, even by the draft WP:BISLES, my edits are reasonable, as is my conduct (more than reasonable). It appears to me that some editors regard any tampering with the term British Isles as a form of vandalism. And yet, still, no comments on Tharky's behaviour. Or the fact that MidnightBlueMan is continuing to revert articles. --HighKing (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It may interest admins to check back a few months to find the time that - on a previous occasion - the term "British Isles" was removed from a bunch of places that it didn't belong (i.e. it was incorrect) and it was serially reverted by TharkunColl and similar editors. I can't comment on HighKing's edits. I haven't followed them. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to cite some actual evidence. On no occasion have I restored British Isles to an article where it was incorrect. ðarkuncoll 19:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Although I have always been loath to make official complants about anyone - I value freedom of speech too much for that - this has now gone too far. I would like to inform HighKing that I've just done precisely that at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#British_Isles_and_User:HighKing. ðarkuncoll 19:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

'Freedom of speech' or getting your own way? --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman has reverted the section, stating quite correctly, that a discussion is going on here, and it smacked of forum shopping. SirFozzie (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

So I'm not even allowed to complain now, am I? Well this is what I said, anyway: For months and months now, both under the name User:HighKing and User:Bardcom, this editor has been systematically removing the term British Isles from as many articles as possible, and is virtually a single-issue account. Any reversions are greeted with cries of vandalism, plus a large number of spurious and time-consuming official complaints. He says take it to talk, but as this example will show Talk:Alexander Thom no amount of references are good enough for him, and he will continue to revert regardless. And when people tire of discussing it with him, he accuses them of breaking the rules. I have many times tried to engage him in discussion, to suggest compromises, and to enquire after his reasons for this campaign of removal, but on no occasion has he ever acceded to such requests. In my opinion his campaign is a form of serious vandalism, because by removing this information the articles - many dozen at least so far - have been degraded, sometimes ridiculously so. Furthermore, those of us who have been trying to revert him have ourselves been accused of edit warring. Those who revert serial vandals don't usually get this sort of treatment. ðarkuncoll 19:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Support 1RR on these editors, and maybe on the dispute over BI in general. I am confused about one thing, User:HighKing is User:Bardcom? If that is true, why are we allowing it? I had no idea I was in a debate with the same editor when I was discussing the Alexander Thom removal of BI by HighKing (who denied having any political motivation). Doug Weller (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed my username, and I do not have any political motivation. Funny how everyone tries to pin that one on me :-) Would it make you feel better perhaps, if you thought of me as a rabid republican British-hating ginger-haired irish-dancing Louis Walsh lookalike? BTW, I'm still waiting for your response on the Alexander Thom ... --HighKing (talk) 20:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

He changed his name after he was blocked by User:William M. Connolley for "vandalism" for removing instances of the term British Isles. Make of that what you will. However we're all allowed to change our name within reason/policy at WP:CHU. Sticky Parkin 19:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

So just how would 1RR work then? HK takes out BI, TK puts it back, HK takes it out again - BLOCKED. Or perhaps, MBM inserts BI, HK takes it out, MBM puts it back - BLOCKED. If that's how it's supposed to work - it isn't going to work. Much as I don't like what HK is doing, the scenario I've just described is unfair. MidnightBlue (Talk) 20:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be best, that you didn't get involved with a HK/TC edit dispute. It would be seen as though you were taking advantage of one of the editors 1RR restriction. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What we have here is a dispute about a naming convention. I suggest somebody creates a subpage to the relevant page, perhaps Talk:British Isles/Usage and then everybody goes there to discuss when to use this term in Wikipedia. To me, an American of East European heritage, I cannot see the reason for all the fuss, but I can understand that this must mean a lot to those who are British or Irish. Rather than playing ping pong with a bunch of articles, why don't we go get a consensus as to how this term should be used? Jehochman ^Talk 20:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We've got one, British Isles naming dispute & a Taskforce on British Isles usage, in progress. GoodDay (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct. We've got a task force WP:BISLES which I've signed up as a participant from the start. The draft so far is at BIDRAFT2 and comments are invited at BIDRAFT1. I would readily accept the guidelines and recommendations made by this task force, but I also worry that the taskforce has been bogged down in the past by arguments and stonewalling by a few editors, and I am concerned that the intention of some editors would be to ensure that the task force never finished... --HighKing (talk) 20:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

At risk of stating the obvious: there is no reason to change British Isles usage in existing articles until such time as the task force completes its work. Why make temporary changes that won't stick, and will only encourage edit warring? If anybody is stonewalling the discussion, please report them at the appropriate venue and somebody will deal with it. What would be good is if everyone here agreed not to take provocative actions, such as changing Great Britain and Ireland to British Isles, or vice versa. If some other editor unknowingly steps on that land mine, I think anybody can revert them, and point them to the taskforce discussion. Does that sound like a plan? Jehochman ^Talk 21:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to agree voluntarily not to add the term to an existing article, if HK agrees not to remove it from any existing article. ðarkuncoll 21:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to wait until the taskforce completes it's work and I also voluntarily agree not to edit any article that results in the removal of the term British Isles. --HighKing (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Well now, that's what I like to read. If you both feel ya's don't need to be restricted (1RR), I may just remove my support for it (the 1RR). GoodDay (talk) 21:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ya see guys, If HK paved half my road green & Tharky paved the other half blue? It'll be great, 'cause my entire road is paved. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

e/c - I'm not sure if this is resolving itself, but I'm going to add it as I've written it, and I wan't to defent HighKing regarding Wikialerts etc:

I'm going to offer my experience of each editor and make a couple of points on the background of this. I think all this is borne out of frustrations elsewhere.

A few months back now, HighKing, when he was Bardcom, went through articles that used British Isles and removed many cases of the term - some of which did go too far, and others were, in my opinion (and the opinion of other users 'pro' the term, such as User:CarterBar) - a genuine service to Wikipedia: the term was indeed over-used in a number of people's opinions. Unfortunately, HK didn't initially 'get' the strong reaction against him making his changes on such an 'ordered' level, no-doubt as he saw himself as doing a simple service. He was far too defensive about his actions for a while, objecting too strongly to people's protestations. When a user called Crispness started to 'back up' his edits on the revert table, things got complicated, and a few people started thinking in terms of a taskforce. Around this time HighKing stepped back, and has supported the ensuing BI taskforce (WP:BITASK) 100%. The taskforce is currently at a lull, and I'm sure the recent edit flurries are frustration with this. It seems that HighKing is testing the drafted guideline out (I think he has a right to at least try this), but Tharkuncoll sees the entire guideline as 'censoring' his notion of free speech.

In my interaction with Tharkuncoll, he seems to want to use the term whenever he sees fit, and have no form of guideline at all. It is very frustrating to argue with him as he used terms like 'censorship' and 'freedom', which I personally find a cynical convenience, and very weakly argued on the occasions he does argue it. IMO, we simple need some sensible guidelines, and Wikipedia is full of these: it is not an total anarchy where people can do what they want.

In my eyes HighKing has (thus-far) been the strongest contributor to the proposed WP:BITASK guidelines as they stand (excluding myself, as I broadly structured the proposal we currently have). DDStretch contributed significantly to begin with, and around 5 others have contributed to some degree. It has to be said Thurkuncoll 'backed out' of the taskforce before contributing at all, and steadfastly refuses to do so. But HightKing has been the most consistent and enthusiastic of the contributors - he has been continually positive, and has contributed a number of textual additions. Tharkuncoll has made no contibution at all, and has completely blanked various questions to him surrounding details of the guideline on perhaps a dozen occasions now - he is not easy to deal with at all, as he simply ignores what he doesn't want to address.

Tarkuncoll says that he has only inserted the term completely afresh on a few occasions, but his clearly calculated insertion of it at the River Shannon (the major Irish river) was a significant act for everyone involved - and was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and even Tharkuncoll signed up for the subsequent BITASK taskforce. As another BI-inserting act, he then immediately released an 'Islands of the British Isles' Template as his self-designated 'first act' of the taskforce, making it awkward for us from the very outset. So regarding Tharkuncoll's propensity to use the term, my argument is that if HighKing edits in a way that removes the term, and Thurkuncoll replaces it without actually improving HK's change in any way - then that IS an act of adding the term. I would add to this that HighKing is editing according the drafted proposed guidelines at the taskforce, while Tharkuncoll is typically doing as he sees fit.

So for me it's not a case of 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'. Tharkuncoll is very much 'pro' the term, and wishes to see it on Wikipedia to a far greater extent than HighKing wished to remove it. HighKing is trying to follow some rules, Tharkuncoll has shown (me at a least) a number of times that he simply doesn't care who he upsets, and will play the 'freedom' card to justify himself like the most cynical of right-wing tub-thumpers IMO - John Lennon he is not. On the whole I am for using the term (and class myself as a 'British' editor), but extremism on both sides simply makes life impossible. In my eyes Tharkuncoll is one of the extremists, HighKing isn't.

I think a real problem here is that people are loathe to get involved simply because Tharkcuncoll alone is so hard to deal with. He has a real-life friend called StickyParkin who often appears as an apologist for him, but he stands by himeself as far as I'm concerned.

Another reason I feel that so few people are getting directly involved in some of these recent burst of edits (apart from general worrying about edit wars), is that people could be generally waiting to see what happens at WP:BITASK. Some people want a BI guideline that uses only 'Ireland' (and not 'Republic of Ireland') for the Irish state. This 'Ireland' issue is the why the BITASK guideline is at a current lull. An Irish disambiguation taskforce (WP:IDTF) was consequently made to try and find a conclusion over Ireleand disambiguation, which had a flurry of interest at the time across all the main Irish spaces. Unfortunately WP:IDTF is at a lull now too, as some users want Brown Haired Girl to chair the difficult opening debate, and she isn't answering her email and seems to have switched Wikipedia off at present. So it is extremely frustrating times for all of us who believe in these taskforces and guidelines. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to endorse this summary by Matt Lewis. It seems quite accurate in the estimation of the relevant degrees of willingness on the part of HighKing and TharkunColl to engage with the community on the British Isles Taskforce. I still think there are problems in both of their actions, and in some, but not all, of the actions of their supporters. I particularly want to say that in my experience StickyParkin has not demonstrated any problem behaviour in these areas. DDStretch (talk) 22:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Breach of sanctions

The Thunderer has reverted here and here this is in breach of the 1RR sanctions on this article. Also he states here that he wants the article protected which is a device he has used previously when somethig in the article he doesn't like. BigDunc^Talk 11:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

At first look, I do agree wtih the core request. Thunderer has reverted twice withing the span of 17 minutes. I have blocked him 24 hours (he was specifically warned previously that he was skating on thin ice with regards to multiple reverts of different material previously). I have reminded him of the proper way to handle things, IE, seek a neutral administrator. SirFozzie (talk) 11:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

While I consider Thunderer's last edit a breech of the 1RR, this is the first block under the new sanctions. As this is in breech of AE, in my opinion his last edit should be reverted, and Thunderer unblocked. This is a learning curve, and I still do not understand about "Multiple single reverts" being not "strictly against the working of the 1RR." I'd like that explained to me. Any text added should be discussed on the talk page first, likewise content removal. Since every edit I made was reverted, with the introduction of AE sanctions, to re-add it was pointless IMO. If I had of re-added would I have been in breech of 1RR? As you can see, I have to get my head around the 1RR and no doubth Thunderer also. I would suggest unblock and they self revert, and lets move on? --Domer48_'fenian' 13:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Just some friendly advice to the editors who are under 1RR. There's a way to avoid accidently breaching? one shouldn't revert at all, but rather use the respective talkpages. GoodDay (talk) 14:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

User: Eupator with regards to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2's decisions

This user has been engaged in persistant and continuous wholesale reverts in a Turkey related entry (Hemshin peoples), taking the entry back to an ancient version (of more than a year ago). The following are notable about this user’s approach:

1) (Directly quoting from my recent appeal to admin Khoikhoi who has not yet responded)

"User Eupator has again engaged in a wholesale revert taking the “Hemshin peoples” entry back to an ancient version for the fifth time on October 7th Wholesale Revert 5.

Just to remind you about Eupator’s attitude, this user has not done a single contribution to the entry and the relevant discussions… He/she has appeared through a wholesale revert taking the entry back to an ancient version (of about a year ago) on July 4th, 2008 Wholesale Revert 1. He/she has then repeated this action on July 5th Wholesale Revert 2, August 3rd Wholesale Revert 3, September 11th Wholesale Revert 4, These reverts have basically taken away an entire section plus a big amount of fully referenced material. This user never presents what he/she objects in the version he/she persistantly erases. In response to Eupator’s reverts, I have asked for his/her arguments on the talk page, to no avail.

This user was joined by 3 others who took turns making such wholesale reverts. (Here is a link where you might see one of my appeals to you earlier about the developlment of the Hemshin peoples entry, in case you want to refresh your memory).

Following your protection of the entry in its ancient version and pursuant to your advice I have also asked for mediation which was blocked by Eupator and users who have the similar attitude (Rejection Report).

If you recall, in our last exchange with you, you had told me that you would talk to these users . In fact in the time period between September 12th and Oct. 7th, no such wholesale reverts were made. Well, now Eupator is back with the same attitude.

This is now without doubt a clear and persistant violation of wikipedia rules and policies and I ask your help in this issue. This user now needs to be warned seriously on his/her talk page and/or be blocked from editing the entry considered. Thanks for your help."

2) This user has removed my warning to him/her on his/her talk page asking him/her to stop such wholesale reverts (diff).omer182 (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a non issue as far as this report is concerned. Omer182 is an SPA that has been owning an article for over a year now, refusing to accept the simple fact that his additons have no consensus whatsoever. See the relevant discussion. He has ignored our concerns constantly, never directly addressing them and when doing so (with user Meowy fruitlessy) never actually compromising. Recently another spa account showed up supporting Omer, User:Cihsai. I'm sure that everyone will agree that the odds of there being two spa's with the same pov on one obscure article are slim to none.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Every new user starts somewhere. It is not against policy to be a single purpose account. Do you have evidence that the user is running an invalid alternate account? If not, assume good faith and explain your view on the content dispute and use dispute resolution as needed. Jehochman ^Talk 01:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Omer182 is not a new user, he has been editing that article and no other article for over a year, nor do his edits there suggest anything in common with that of a new user. The whole matter has gone well beyond the capabilities of neutral editors to sort out. The Hemshin Peoples article is a disaster. Nobody can usefully edit there thanks to Omer having taking possession of it.

As background, back in July I wrote in the article's talk page Talk:Hemshin_peoples#Edit_war:

Omer182 has taken "ownership" of this article in order to POV war his opinion – an opinion that is not supported by any sources. He has, through a process of reverting or removing anything that he has not personally written and by actively distorting sources and altering text written by other editors, created an article that is not only extremely misleading but is almost unreadable.

Omer182's edits appear to have the end goal of muddying the waters mostly in order to create the impression that the Hemshini are not Armenian in origin, and that claims of their Armenian and Christian origin are disputed and unproven.

He initially went about this by trying to POV fork the article. He argued on this page for removing two of the three recognized Hemshinli groups from the article and moving them to separate entries: the Christian Armenian-speaking "northern Hemshinli" and the Muslim Armenian-speaking eastern or "Hopa Hemshinli". This was presumably because the Armenian origin of those two groups would be obvious to everyone. That initial attempt failed, and he has subsequently been engaged in rewriting the article to suit his POV and editing out any other editors' contributions. Any editor adding new material will find, often within hours, that Omer182 has reverted the article to a previous version, that version invariably being Omer182's version.

Omer182 has persistently removed fully referenced material from the article. He does not discuss beforehand his edits (most of which are reverts) to remove referenced material, and he does not justify their removal when asked. On a number of occasions he has said that he will, quote, "consider the additional information suggested" after removing the material from the actual article - an example of him behaving as if he owned the article.

The methodology of Omer182's edits is to discredit or marginalise mainstream academic opinions about the Hemshin peoples. He does this by using four primary methods.
1/ He will use weasel-words in his text
2/ He will exclude all material that strongly disagrees with his POV.
3/ He will deliberately falsify or cherry-pick source material in order to manipulate the source to suit his POV.
4/ He uses sentence stuffing: making accepted facts appear vague or uncertain by disguising them within overly convoluted and unreadable sentences.

As a result of edit warring the page got protected and after discussion it was agreed a way out could be to revert the entry to a "pre-Omer" version and then discuss what changes should be made. Personally, it meant losing a lot of material that I had contributed, but as a solution it seemed to make sense. That "pre-Omer" version is the version Eupator has recently been reverting to. Omer has been reverting to the "Omer version". As for the discussion, thanks to endless nit-picking by Omer, it never got beyond making proposed changes to the article's introduction section and the process became a grinding war of attrition that no decent editor should be made to go through. I left to go on a long holiday, both literally and as a break from the article. I think that the only solution is to restrict Omer from editing the article for a period of time, say two months, in order to let the article advance to a decent state of development. Meowy 16:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

With regard to Meowy's above appeal, please note the following:

1) This page is not for content discussion. I have opened the topic to report on some user conduct which I do not think is in coherence with the remedies of the relevant arbitration.

2) My answers to the claims that Meowy has quoted above can be found under the link Meowy has provided. Further, the linked section was created by the admin whom I had invited to help in creating a reasonable discussion environment. His brief comments can also be found there.

3) Meowy mentions a consensus that surfaced after a discussion on the need to take the entry back to it's "pre-Omer" version. There is no such discussion/consensus on the talk page of the article. Is it possible to have clarification on this?Omer182 (talk) 20:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

User:John Nevard with regards to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland's decisions

This account, which was a self-identified alternate account [2], has been invested on editing a number of articles covered under the above named Arbitration case, including Short (finance), and Overstock.com. I made an attempt to warn him of the Arbitration Committee's directive that all editors must edit these articles under their main account, and he rebuffed it. [3]. User:Lar attempted to discuss the fact that John Nevard had previously self-identified the account as an alternate account, and John Nevard rebuffed that as well, see: [4].

So, per: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Mantanmoreland#Editors_instructed (I've copied the section that directly applies here)

1) Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to naked short selling, Overstock.com, Patrick M. Byrne, Gary Weiss, or closely related pages or discussions on any page is directed:

(A) To edit on these from only a single user account, which shall be the user's sole or main account

Passed 11 to 0 at 21:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This may need CheckUser involvement to determine if the John Nevard account IS the sole or main account in use here, but until such time as that has been confirmed by either a checkuser or ArbCom member, I am formally asking that User:John Nevard be topic banned from articles covered under the Mantanmoreland ArbCom case. SirFozzie (talk) 06:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

User:John Nevard contacted me by email (as this edit summary indicated would happen) and asserted that the "real name" account referred to in [5] was no longer in use, had not been for some time, and that JN was now the sole account being used, and thus was not in violation of the multiple account restriction. I carried out a CU investigation but I want to consult with at least one other CU about what the results indicate before I'm willing to discuss it further than to say I was puzzled by it. A topic ban may not be warranted, although JN's bedside manner isn't the greatest. ++Lar: t/c 10:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar reached similar views as I have. In light of Mantanmoreland's past I would not like to definitively rule out anything, and I would suggest close watching of the articles (nothing new there)... but overall at present the evidence tentatively (and subject to change if needed) tends to support that John Nevard is probably a separate person. To underline, technical tools are not "magic pixie dust"; watchful eyeballs are one of the best safeguards of quality. I would like to also check with Lar any extra matters he may be aware of as he has looked into it further.

I also concur with Lar in a second area. As JN is surely aware by his edits, the whole Overstock/naked shorting area is high profile and has been the focus of considerable disruption on Wikipedia. If you continue editing this area, please be very careful to ensure you do so to a high standard of editing quality, and focus on the content, not removal of matters concerning Mantanmoreland. To be direct, this does not show good judgement in such an area. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Nod. That removal is perhaps not directly the subject of an ArbCom sanction but it's terrifically bad form to remove a notice of something that way, and also rather bad form to repeatedly be snarky about it in responses, as JN was. John Nevard may not, in the end, fall afoul of this particular restriction but he's sailing close to the wind, in my view, to ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase. Which is not a good spot to be in if your goal is reasonable edits that stand review by your peers. ++Lar: t/c 15:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar, there is no indication that John Nevard is close to "ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase"; unless, of course, by "our userbase" you mean the userbase of a certain off-wikipedia attack site that seems obsessed with him, among others. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I mean a significant fraction of the editors of Wikipedia. I make no reference to anything else. I hope that clarifies matters. ++Lar: t/c 04:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As Will points out, it's probably best not to speculate that an editor in good standing, who has no history of problematic edits, might "end up" being viewed in some pejorative way. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

And, as FT2 points out, statements like, "an editor...who has not history of problematic edits" with regard to Nevard are false. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Since FT2 never "points [that] out", it is actually your statement that is false. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that coming into a discussion with BADSITES attacks is not useful, and can also be considered "(at least) mildy disruptive and tendentious" by a significant part of Wikipedia as well, Jayjg. SirFozzie (talk) 01:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And I suggest that injecting the spurious "BADSITES" meme into the conversation is not useful, and can also be considered "(at least) mildy disruptive and tendentious" by a significant part of Wikipedia as well, SirFozzie. Anyway, isn't that Dtobias's job? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... how dare anybody bring up the BADSITES meme without getting my permission first... I WP:OWN it! *Dan T.* (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Nevard user is viewed as a "disruptive and tendentious editor"? Has he been reverted frequently? From the edits of his to articles that I watch he appears to be helpful and to follow WP norms. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No there is not. But that's not what I said. What I said was a prediction, that if John Nevard continues "sailing close to the wind" he will end up being viewed that way. It was not a remark about current state. I stand behind that prediction, based on my experience. I hope that clears up matters. ++Lar: t/c 04:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying your statement. But predictions like that may not be the best way of resolving a problem. I suppose someone could predicting that I, or you, would come to be viewed as disruptive, and they could brushing aside requests for evidence since predictions aren't accusations. How could we respond? By claiming our crystal ball was clearer? By making a bet? If there is sockpuppeting here let's focus on that. If we have evidence of disruption and violations then WP:AE and WP:AI are appropriate places to discuss them. If all we have are gut predictions of future disruptions by an editor in apparently good standing (no blocks or paroles) then the appropriate places to discuss those would be, um, somewhere off-wiki. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Nod. However, as others point out, it's more than just a gut feeling... FT2 is spot on in pointing out that there are problematic comments that are clear warning signs here. You may not agree, but I find that one rather troublesome. Quibble about what it is exactly, if you like (tendntious, disruptive, or just snarky) but it's not good. Normally I don't get quite this analytic but this is a special case. Editors who edit in this area should try to be LESS snarky than average, rather than more. ++Lar: t/c 11:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say FT2's comment: To be direct, this does not show good judgement in such an area. would point to disruptive and tendentiousness, as well as his edit summaries, Will. Have you familiarized yourself with his interactions with other editors? SirFozzie (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it tendentious and disruptive to delete comments from one's own talk page? I so we need to change WP:USER to reflect that standard. (I'd endorse it, as I find it annoying, but it appears to be a common practice.) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Presumably it's the edit summary. --NE2 01:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

A rude edit summary on one's own talk page makes one uncivil, not disruptive and tendentious. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that spreading discredited "WR vs. WP" memes can be disruptive. --NE2 02:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Yes, that's right, WR is also trying to build a great encyclopedia. Good one!! Jayjg ^(talk) 02:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You're helping less than I am. --NE2 02:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC) I just realized that that could be misinterpreted; my intent is to say that you're not helping in this discussion. (Unless your idea of help is to inflame a dispute, in which case you certainly are helping.) --NE2 02:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how making a negative remark about WR in an edit summary on one's own talk page makes one a tendentious and disruptive editor. We're not allowed to make comments about other websites anymore? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come off it. The remark was negative towards Lar and Cla68, two editors in good standing. --NE2 03:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool down. I asked for evidence that the user is disruptive and tendentious and was given that diff as proof. I said that it might have been uncivil but not tendentious or uncivil, and you replied that talking about WR is disruptive. I disputed that and now you say that the original comment was uncivil, which is pretty much what I said before. Getting back to the assertion that the user is "tendentious and disruptive" - is there any evidence of that? So far all that's been offered is one uncivil edit summary. By the Giano standard, it wasn't even uncivil. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay guys, enough please. All of you. Jayjg, given the Mantanmoreland enforcement and John Nevard's early declaration that he was an alternate account, it was reasonable to make inquiries. Will Beback, it was reasonable to expect those inquiries to be responded to in a reasonable way rather than blanking with mildly rude edit summaries. Sir Fozzie, please don't rise to the bait - more light, less heat. Risker (talk) 01:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Balderdash. To begin with, this has nothing to do with the BADSITES strawman; rather, this has to do with a very specific attack site, which has taken a disliking to John Nevard, and started trying to tie him as a sockpuppet to its usual targets/victims. Rather unsurprisingly, soon after the thread about Nevard there heats up, one of the forum's regulars shows up on Nevard's Talk: page "advising" him to behave better, and soon after that another forum regular warns him, then opens up this section. The causality is clear as day, there's no point in pussyfooting around. However, the fact that that attack site is obsessed with Nevard (and no doubt working itself into a frenzy over this exchange) doesn't mean that "a significant part of Wikipedia" cares what it thinks, much less agrees with its conclusions. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, there is nothing to say that other Wikipedians hadn't noticed this dichotomy some time in the past and were simply more discreet in their inquiries. While that may seem, on the surface, to have been more diplomatic, the end result is that since there was no public discussion, John Nevard is now being discussed on a public noticeboard. Let's try to keep the heat down and focus on the fact that there is apparently nothing at this time to link John Nevard with any of the known sockpuppeteers who have been known to haunt this series of articles. To my mind, that serves to dispel the cloud that has been following John Nevard around for a while, which can only be a good thing. Risker (talk) 02:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That was the whole point of my first comment; to refute the claim that John Nevard was close to "ending up being viewed as a (at least mildly) disruptive and tendentious editor by a significant fraction of our userbase". There has never been a "cloud" following John Nevard around; rather, an insignificant attack board started advancing various idiotic theories about John Nevard, as is its wont. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, unless you have been following these articles closely (and there is no reason to expect that you would), you would likely be unaware of the concerns of those of us who have been watching them. From my perspective, I am relieved that this issue is now openly resolved. Risker (talk) 02:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Who is this "us who have been watching them" you refer to, and where were you discussing it? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

A question for clarification - was the other/prior account disclosed, and did you confirm that this account is indeed long dormant? Neither Lar's replies nor FT2s replies give me an indication either way on the first half of the question, which prevents me from reaching a conclusion on the second half. Also, I know of at least one prior checkuser request related to this Arbitration case that came up with puzzling results, so it might be worth discussing your puzzlement with the checkusers who handled that case. GRBerry 15:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
- - I am not aware of it being disclosed, it may have been but it was not disclosed to me. I asked, but did not insist. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    - Perhaps as a good-faith way of moving forward, John Nevard could disclose his previous account name to an Arbitration Committee member, privately? SirFozzie (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
- I do not see evidence of multiple account use by John Nevard within the period covered by the checkuser tables as of today. He appears to edit from a university, a business, a residence, and occasionally tor; I do not know if that is of significance. (Curiously, 3 other editors at his university appear to be sockpuppets of each other, but since they share a different residential ISP I'm ruling John Nevard out as a fourth member of the party.) I'm not sure what information John has volunteered about his location, so I will only say he is not in the U.S., which seems to rule out the kind of long-distance dial-up shenanigans discovered involving Bassetcat, and also rules out any direct relationship with JaneyRyan. Hope this helps clarify things. Thatcher 17:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  - I may be mistaken but I believe use of TOR is explicitly disallowed to be used while editing in that area. I'll consolidate my notes and consult with you, FT2 and the other CUs that have been investigating this to see if we can sort out any points of confusion. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    - That was my thoughts as well, Lar.. that TOR was, if not explicitly banned, was at least severely discouraged on these articles. SirFozzie (talk) 18:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It might be relevant is if someone else was logging in to JN's account to edit. As it happens, there are very few tor edits and none of them are related to naked short selling or other matters related to the case. The use of tor full-time would be prohibited for editors in this topic area (I think), but a large majority of JN's edits are made from non-proxy IP's, so it doesn't seem like an issue. Thatcher 18:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of Tor for this topic area is prohibited under 1B of the case remedies, but Thatcher has told us that the currently visible Tor edits aren't in the topic area, so that is moot for now. GRBerry 20:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how relevant this is to considerations here, but in my experience the principal antagonists on both sides of the fence were diligently recruiting Wikipedian volunteers to their POV on the Naked Short Selling content dispute. So there may be an issue about whether this person is proxying for a banned user. Maybe a caution at this time, with a possible request for clarification if problems continue? Durova^Charge! 19:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think proxying for a banned user is the right way to deal with this, given that there are banned users on multiple sides of this issue here. I'd use remedy 1C "To edit in accordance with all Wikipedia policies ..." as the relevant remedy here. Some of JN's highlighed edits/summaries have gone too far into WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND territory, but I haven't yet dug enough to see if that is a caution that should be issued. GRBerry 20:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

For those keeping score at home, it may be instructive to count how many comments here in this very thread veer into WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND territory. Some of the things said here would get a newcomer sanctioned, and some might not, but clearly are not the sort of things I'd be pointing to with pride had I said them. ++Lar: t/c 12:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing on this page that "would get a newcomer sanctioned", and if you were concerned about Wikipedia becoming a battleground, then you should not have volunteered in this matter to be a willing foot-soldier on behalf of a message board at war with Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That characterization of this matter is not helpful, Jayjg. Really, you should reconsider your approach. ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It was your characterization of John Nevard that was not helpful, and it is you who should reconsider your approach. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No, you're really not helping here. --NE2 02:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You are describing your own behavior, not mine. Please review Will Beback's comments to you above. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

As the author of the original decision, I'd appreciate ongoing administrator attention to this highly publicized and problematic group of articles, both with regard to enforcement of the remedies in the decision as well as enforcement of other policies including application of BLP. There are also a number of old talkpage discussions that probably ought to be archived or courtesy-blanked (I would say deleted, but we'd be accused of trying to cover up the problematic history here), if someone wants to go through these. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I have continued to monitor these articles over the last few months, and will do some talk page archiving later this evening. Risker (talk) 00:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Breach of 1RR on Troubles Article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Nothing to see here. I have already dealt with this issue and so has Rocketpocket and Thunderer was not guilty of more then one revert anyway because the edits concerned were sequential. Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

After a long a protracted discussion here, all Troubles related articles were placed under a 1RR restriction. Notification was placed on the Ulster Defence Regiment article here, though editors were aware of this decision. Since the Arbitration Enforcement closed The Thunderer, has set about reverting editors work, despite the restrictions IMO. They engaged almost immediately in a revert war here, here and here.

They subsequently went on to revert editors work here and here, types of edits which lent itself to the origional dispute. They then reverted my edit here, after I had just added this text here.

This prompted Rockpocket to post a reminder on their talk page here, and BigDunc suggested likewise and to exercise some caution with this type of editing in light of sanctions. These type of edits had given rise to the above mentioned AE.

I then made a number of sourced and referenced editions to the article here, here and here. However despite both Rockpockets and BigDunc’s advice, The Thunderer set about reverting regardless, describing the reverts as rewriting opening section and Rewriting section. It is obvious that the text was simply removed.

In addition to this they have made a number of reverts which are IMO written towards a particular POV, such as here, and here. The reason I raise these two is that Spartaz had pacifically raised this matter on the talk page here, and only today raised it again here. The introduction of unsourced text, in addition to not keeping to our policy of WP:NPOV.

Since the AE the editor has refused to assume good faith, and has on each tread made a number of comments about me. They accused me of wanting to do a hatchet job on the article, and was asked to stop. They then said I was only adding Catholic or Nationalist opinion suggesting that I should resist the temptation to put in material which is detrimental to the UDR's image, and that we shouldn't give too much weight to the controversy because that's a matter of opinion. They then suggested that they were going to have a look through the article at some point and delete a load of it. I objected of course, but as seen above they paid no mind. They then suggested I was using the article as a condemnation, and that this was my sole purpose in editing this article. Suggesting that if I "don't moderate this pro-Nationalist editing style then their going to have to involve ArbCom." They then went on to suggest I change my modus operandi and if I don't remove the information then they will take it further.

I would like to have this addressed, as I'm trying to move on to some other articles like here and here, as well as addressing vandalism on other WP:IR articles such as here and here. This editor appears to be a WP:SPA account with a clear case of WP:OWN, which is all well and good as long as they do not edit against policy, or keep making accusations. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the protection was placed with a time stamp of 20:00 by yours truly, according to the link Domer has supplied. The Thunderer/Ben W Bell issue was before it. That's not a violation. I'm looking at the rest of Domer's report for information, however, I don't believe that there is a violation of the 1 RR, unless I'm missing something. The section where he says that he's looking to delete a load from the article is not bad in context. That was all hypothetical. The point is you can fill the article with all sorts of cruft about the regiment being bad and counter it with more cruft about the regiment being good. The end result is that you finish up with an article full of cruft. If you agree with the way it's done then fine, if not I'll self revert to stop anyone getting sanctions. Sound fair? While Domer and Dunc make a point that maybe it would be better to post somewhere first what he was willing to delete, I found it quite acceptable under Bold Revert Discuss. I fully invite others to look at Domer's request/evidence, but I do not see anything actionable in my quick look at it. SirFozzie (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I have pointed to were sourced and referenced text was removed, despite ongoing discussion on the talk page. So IMO Bold Revert Discuss is not the case here. The edit summary suggests a re-write, yet clearly the text was simply removed. No mention is made of the comments directed at me at all. Now for context, I have posted information here which details this type of conduct in more detail. Would my replacing of this information which was removed be considered as part of Bold Revert Discuss?--Domer48_'fenian' 07:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer, just because something is sourced, doesn't mean it's not cruft. It depends on the context and notability. We have to watch WP:UNDUE on both sides, that's what WP:NPOV means. I think that especially because Thunderer offered to SELF-revert if there was a problem, we really must Assume Good Faith. But that is why I offered to have other editors review your section of evidence and see if they agree with me. SirFozzie (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment The reply That was all hypothetical was inresponce to something compleatly different. The text they suggested removing is not what is being discussed here, though they were asked not to. What was removed is part of an ongoing discussion. No mention is made of the introduction of unsourced and unreferenced text, despite being ask not to. If it will help illustrate what I'm saying, I can post the diff's of previous actions like what is being discussed now, and linked above. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for injunction in Pseudoscience/Homeopathy

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

See my response below. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 13:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Elonka should be banned from enforcement of Pseudoscience/Homeopathy arbitration decisions. She no longer has the trust of the community to act fairly as an administrator in this particular regard. Leave the enforcement to other administrators.

ScienceApologist (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to take that up with ArbCom. Administrators would only (maybe) have the authority to do that collectively at ANI, but the only sure bet for such an injunction (haven't we got a new name for it yet?) is ArbCom.--chaser - t 05:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Chaser is correct, SA...this isn't where a request like that needs to be made. It doesn't have anything to do with the enforcement of the remedies prescribed by ARBCOM in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy, but rather how or by whom they are enforced. Please appeal to ARBCOM or start a discussion at WP:ANI. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 13:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

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