Punk rock and Talk:Communist state: Difference between pages
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[[Talk:Communist state (archive)|Archive 1]] -- [[Talk:Communist state (archive 2)|Archive 2]] -- [[Talk:Communist state (archive 3)|Archive 3]] -- [[talk:Communist state (archive 4)|Archive 4]] -- [[Talk:Communist state (archive 5)|Archive 5]] -- [[Talk:Communist state/archive 6|Archive 6]] -- [[Talk:Communist state/archive 7|Archive 7]] -- [[Talk:Communist state/archive 8|Archive 8]] -- [[Talk:Communist state/archive 9|Archive 9]] |
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{{punkRockInfobox}} |
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'''Punk rock''' (often referred to simply as '''punk''') is a [[rock music]] genre that developed between 1974 and 1976 in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia. Rooted in [[garage rock]] and other forms of what is now known as [[protopunk]] music, punk rock bands eschewed the perceived excesses of mainstream 1970s rock. They created fast, hard-edged music, typically with short songs, stripped-down instrumentation, and often political, anti-establishment lyrics. Punk embraces a [[DIY ethic|DIY]] (do it yourself) ethic, with many bands self-producing their recordings and distributing them through informal channels. |
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== Sources == |
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By late 1976, bands such as the [[Ramones]], in New York City, and the [[Sex Pistols]] and [[The Clash]], in London, were recognized as the vanguard of a new musical movement. The following year saw punk rock spreading around the world. Punk quickly, though briefly, became a major cultural phenomenon in the United Kingdom. For the most part, punk took root in local scenes that tended to reject association with the mainstream. An associated [[punk subculture]] emerged, expressing youthful rebellion and characterized by distinctive [[Punk fashion|clothing styles]] and a variety of [[Punk ideologies|anti-authoritarian ideologies]]. |
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This article has a source problem - when POV'ed sources are used, the article will also be POV'ed. E.g. "Resolution 1481 (2006)1 Need for international condemnation of crimes of totalitarian communist regimes " - This has not been accepted yet, but still it has been sourced - why? --[[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 00:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC) |
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By the beginning of the 1980s, even faster, more aggressive styles such as [[hardcore punk|hardcore]] and [[Oi!]] had become the predominant mode of punk rock. Musicians identifying with or inspired by punk also pursued a broad range of other variations, giving rise to [[post-punk]] and the [[alternative rock]] movement. By the turn of the century, [[pop punk]] had been adopted by the mainstream, with bands such as [[Green Day]] and [[Blink-182]] bringing the genre widespread popularity. |
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==Characteristics== |
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===Philosophy=== |
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<!-- Image with inadequate rationale removed: [[Image:Ramones album cover.jpg|thumb|right|The [[Ramones]]' 1976 [[Ramones (album)|debut album]]. "The band's first four albums set the blueprint for punk, especially American punk and hardcore, for the next two decades"<ref>Erlewine, Stephen Thomas, [http://wc04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:gifwxqr5ldje~T1 "The Ramones: Biography"], ''All Music Guide''. Retrieved on October 11, 2007.</ref>]] --> |
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The first wave of punk rock aimed to be aggressively modern, distancing itself from the bombast and sentimentality of early 1970s rock.<ref name="RMB">Robb (2006), foreword by Michael Bracewell.</ref> According to [[Ramones]] drummer [[Tommy Ramone]], "In its initial form, a lot of [1960s] stuff was innovative and exciting. Unfortunately, what happens is that people who could not hold a candle to the likes of [[Jimi Hendrix|Hendrix]] started noodling away. Soon you had endless solos that went nowhere. By 1973, I knew that what was needed was some pure, stripped down, no bullshit rock 'n' roll."<ref>Ramone, Tommy, "Fight Club", ''[[UNCUT (magazine)|Uncut]]'', January 2007.</ref> [[John Holmstrom]], founding editor of ''[[Punk (magazine)|Punk]]'' magazine, recalls feeling "punk rock had to come along because the rock scene had become so tame that [acts] like [[Billy Joel]] and [[Simon and Garfunkel]] were being called rock and roll, when to me and other fans, rock and roll meant this wild and rebellious music."<ref name="MM">McLaren, Malcolm, [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5263364.stm "Punk Celebrates 30 Years of Subversion"], BBC News, August 18, 2006. Retrieved on January 17, 2006.</ref> In critic [[Robert Christgau]]'s description, "It was also a subculture that scornfully rejected the political idealism and Californian flower-power silliness of hippie myth."<ref>Christgau, Robert, [http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bkrev/mcneil-nyt.php "''Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk'', by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain" (review)], ''New York Times Book Review'', 1996. Retrieved on January 17, 2007.</ref> [[Patti Smith]], in contrast, suggests in the documentary ''25 Years of Punk'' that the hippies and the punk rockers were linked by a common anti-establishment mentality. |
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Throughout punk rock history, technical accessibility and a [[Do it yourself|DIY]] spirit have been prized. In the early days of punk rock, this ethic stood in marked contrast to what those in the scene regarded as the ostentatious musical effects and technological demands of many mainstream rock bands.<ref>See, e.g., Rodel (2004), p. 237; Bennett (2001), pp. 49–50.</ref> Musical virtuosity was often looked on with suspicion. According to Holmstrom, punk rock was "rock and roll by people who didn't have very much skills as musicians but still felt the need to express themselves through music".<ref name="MM"/> In December 1976, the English [[fanzine]] ''Sideburns'' famously published an illustration of three chords, captioned "This is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band."<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 280–281. Several sources incorrectly ascribe the illustration to the leading fanzine of the London punk scene, ''[[Sniffin' Glue]]'' (e.g., Wells [2004], p. 5; Sabin [1999], p. 111). Savage reproduces the original image, and the ''Sideburns'' attribution is clearly correct.</ref> The title of a 1980 single by New York punk band [[The Stimulators (US band)|The Stimulators]], "Loud Fast Rules!", inscribed a catchphrase for punk's basic musical approach.<ref>Blush (2001), pp. 173, 175. See also [http://www.kbdrecords.com/2006/09/21/the-stimulators-loud-fast-rules-7/ The Stimulators—Loud Fast Rules 7″] Killed By Death Records (September 21, 2006).</ref> |
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== POV == |
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Some of British punk rock's leading figures made a show of rejecting not only contemporary mainstream rock and the broader culture it was associated with, but their own most celebrated predecessors: "No [[Elvis Presley|Elvis]], [[Beatles]] or the [[Rolling Stones]] in 1977", declared [[The Clash]] song "1977".<ref>Harris (2004), p. 202.</ref> The previous year, when the punk rock revolution began in Great Britain, was to be both a musical and a cultural "Year Zero".<ref name = "Reynolds p4">Reynolds (2005), p. 4.</ref> Even as nostalgia was discarded, many in the scene adopted a [[nihilism|nihilistic]] attitude summed up by the [[Sex Pistols]] slogan "No Future";<ref name="RMB"/> in the later words of one observer, amid the unemployment and social unrest in 1977, "punk's nihilistic swagger was the most thrilling thing in England."<ref>Jeffries, Stuart. "A Right Royal Knees-Up". ''The Guardian''. July 20, 2007.</ref> While "self-imposed [[social alienation|alienation]]" was common among "drunk punks" and "gutter punks", there was always a tension between their nihilistic outlook and the "radical leftist utopianism"<ref>Washburne, Christopher, and Maiken Derno. ''Bad Music''. Routledge, 2004. Page 247.</ref> of bands such as [[Crass]], who found positive, liberating meaning in the movement. As a Clash associate describes singer [[Joe Strummer]]'s outlook, "Punk rock is meant to be our freedom. We're meant to be able to do what we want to do."<ref>Kosmo Vinyl, ''The Last Testament: The Making of London Calling'' (Sony Music, 2004).</ref> |
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L.S. |
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This article is dubious. Why? There are too many opinions involved, too many subjective sources (whether they're sources or not: a bad source is a bad source) and too many opinionated conclusions. I would like to ask every serious wikipedia-editer on this page start looking sceptic at both pro- as anti-POV's, and delete them when you have a mere reason. Do add it to the talk-page, so that others can react incase of injust. We were all instructed to be harsh on un-sourced and "POV-ed" articles in the wikipedia-policy mail which we received. So let us do so. --[[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 21:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC) |
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===Musical and lyrical elements=== |
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Punk rock bands often emulate the bare musical structures and arrangements of 1960s [[garage rock]].<ref>Murphy, Peter, "Shine On, The Lights Of The Bowery: The Blank Generation Revisited", ''Hot Press'', July 12, 2002; [[Barney Hoskyns|Hoskyns, Barney]], "Richard Hell: King Punk Remembers the [ ] Generation", ''[[Rock's Backpages]]'', March 2002.</ref> Typical punk rock instrumentation includes one or two electric guitars, an electric bass, and a drum kit, along with vocals. Punk rock songs tend to be shorter than those of other popular genres—on the Ramones' [[Ramones (album)|debut album]], for instance, half of the fourteen tracks are under two minutes long. Most early punk rock songs retained a traditional rock 'n' roll [[verse-chorus form]] and 4/4 [[time signature]]. However, punk rock bands in the movement's second wave and afterward have often broken from this format. In critic Steven Blush's description, "The Sex Pistols were still rock'n'roll...like the craziest version of [[Chuck Berry]]. [[Hardcore punk|Hardcore]] was a radical departure from that. It wasn't verse-chorus rock. It dispelled any notion of what songwriting is supposed to be. It's its own form."<ref name="blush">Blush, Steven, "Move Over My Chemical Romance: The Dynamic Beginnings of US Punk", ''[[UNCUT (magazine)|Uncut]]'', January 2007.</ref> |
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:I strongly disagree with your assertions of dubiousness. If anything, the article is more neutral than any other I've seen. It was overhauled by someone freakishly intelligent from a biased, uninformative propaganda page into something beautiful. It is now an article that acknowledges every viewpoint while remaining objective and unbiased. Also, the sources are not bad. unfortunately, wikipedia doesn't allow any original research (a huge problem among the intellectual community) so the knowledge and words of modern communists can't be cited until someone records them, gets people to peer review them, and publishes them, all of which are not likely to be done for a single wikipedia article. Take a look at the talk page, and you will find that the article was written to satisfy as many people as possible to the greatest extent, including those with less than common viewpoints. Further, you have not pointed out any of these "opinionated conclusions" and "subjective sources."[[User:Tealwisp|Llama]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]]) 08:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Punk rock vocals sometimes sound nasal,<ref>Wells (2004), p. 41; Reed (2005), p. 47.</ref> and lyrics are often shouted instead of sung in a conventional sense, particularly in hardcore styles.<ref name="S159">Shuker (2002), p. 159.</ref> The vocal approach is characterized by a lack of variety; shifts in pitch, volume, or intonational style are relatively infrequent—the Sex Pistols' [[Johnny Rotten]] constituting a significant exception.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 58; Reynolds (2005), p. ix.</ref> Complicated guitar solos are considered self-indulgent and unnecessary, although basic guitar breaks are common.<ref>Chong, Kevin, [http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/guitarsolos.html "The Thrill Is Gone"], Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, August 2006. Retrieved on December 17, 2006.</ref> Guitar parts tend to include highly distorted [[power chords]] or [[barre chords]], creating a characteristic sound described by Christgau as a "buzzsaw drone".<ref>Quoted in Laing (1985), p. 62.</ref> Some punk rock bands take a [[surf rock]] approach with a lighter, [[twang]]ier guitar tone. Others, such as [[Robert Quine]], lead guitarist of [[The Voidoids]], have employed a wild, "[[Gonzo journalism|gonzo]]" attack, a style that stretches back through [[The Velvet Underground]] to the 1950s recordings of [[Ike Turner]].<ref>Palmer (1992), p. 37.</ref> Bass guitar lines are often uncomplicated; the quintessential approach is a relentless, repetitive "forced rhythm",<ref>Laing (1985), p. 62.</ref> although some punk rock bass players—such as [[Mike Watt]] of [[The Minutemen (band)|The Minutemen]] and [[Firehose (band)|Firehose]]—emphasize more technical bass lines. Bassists often use a [[plectrum]] due to the rapid succession of notes, which makes [[fingerpicking]] impractical. Drums typically sound heavy and dry, and often have a minimal set-up. Compared to other forms of rock, [[syncopation]] is much less the rule.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 61–63.</ref> Hardcore drumming tends to be especially fast.<ref name="S159"/> Production tends to be minimalistic, with tracks sometimes laid down on home tape recorders<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 118–119.</ref> or simple four-track portastudios. The typical objective is to have the recording sound unmanipulated and "real", reflecting the commitment and "authenticity" of a live performance.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 53.</ref> Punk recordings thus often have a [[lo-fi]] quality, with the sound left relatively unpolished in the [[audio mastering|mastering]] process; recordings may contain dialogue between band members, false starts, and background noise. |
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::I thank you for your reaction (seem not to get so many??)! Yes, the sources have been updated and fixed (see Calz's "preserved for ages" part about Genocide), but there were alot of "dubious" sources before. Yet, I find it strange that we use a European Resolution (which has not been accepted -yet- !) taht wants to condemn Commmunist regimes. Shouldn't we wait e.g. until the Resolution is actually taken? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 09:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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[[Image:Clash 21051980 12 800.jpg|left|thumb|[[The Clash]], performing in 1980]] |
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Punk rock lyrics are typically frank and confrontational; compared to other popular music genres, they frequently comment on social and political issues.<ref>Sabin (1999), pp. 4, 226; Dalton, Stephen, "Revolution Rock", ''Vox'', June 1993. See also Laing (1985), pp. 27–32, for a statistical comparison of lyrical themes.</ref> Trend-setting songs such as The Clash's "[[Career Opportunities]]" and [[Chelsea (band)|Chelsea's]] "Right to Work" deal with unemployment and the grim realities of urban life.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 31.</ref> Especially in early British punk, a central goal was to outrage and shock the mainstream.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 81, 125.</ref> The Sex Pistols classics "[[Anarchy in the U.K.]]" and "[[God Save the Queen (Sex Pistols song)|God Save the Queen]]" openly disparage the British political system and social mores. There is also a characteristic strain of anti-sentimental depictions of relationships and sex, exemplified by "Love Comes in Spurts", written by [[Richard Hell]] and recorded by him with The Voidoids. [[Anomie]], variously expressed in the poetic terms of Hell's "Blank Generation" and the bluntness of the Ramones' "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue", is a common theme. Identifying punk with such topics aligns with the view expressed by ''[[RE/Search|Search and Destroy]]'' founder [[V. Vale]]: "Punk was a total cultural revolt. It was a hardcore confrontation with the black side of history and culture, right-wing imagery, sexual taboos, a delving into it that had never been done before by any generation in such a thorough way."<ref>Quoted in Savage (1991), p. 440. See also Laing (1985), pp. 27–32.</ref> However, many punk rock lyrics deal in more traditional rock 'n' roll themes of courtship, heartbreak, and hanging out; the approach ranges from the deadpan, aggressive simplicity of Ramones standards such as "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend"<ref>{{cite web|author=Segal, David|title=Punk's Pioneer|work=Washington Post|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=digest&contentId=A25121-2001Apr16|date=2001-04-17|accessdate=2007-10-23}}</ref> to the more unambiguously sincere style of many later pop punk groups. |
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:::You seem not to have much problem with the article at this point, so would you protest to a removal of the NPOV flag?[[User:Tealwisp|Llama]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]]) 20:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC) |
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===Visual and other elements=== |
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[[Image:punks.jpg|right|thumb|UK punks, circa 1986]] |
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The classic punk rock look among male U.S. musicians harkens back to the T-shirt, motorcycle jacket, and jeans ensemble favored by American [[Greaser (subculture)|greasers]] of the 1950s associated with the [[rockabilly]] scene and by British [[rockers]] of the 1960s. The cover of the Ramones' 1976 debut album, featuring a shot of the band by ''Punk'' photographer Roberta Bayley, set forth the basic elements of a style that was soon widely emulated by rock musicians both punk and nonpunk.<ref>Bessman (1993), pp. 48, 50; Miles, Scott, and Morgan (2005), p. 136.</ref> Richard Hell's more androgynous, ragamuffin look—and reputed invention of the [[safety pin#Culture|safety-pin aesthetic]]—was a major influence on Sex Pistols impresario [[Malcolm McLaren]] and, in turn, British punk style.<ref name="RHV">{{cite web|author=Grant, Steven, Fleischmann, Mark; Sprague, David; Robbins, Ira |title=Richard Hell & the Voidoids|author=Isler, Scott; Robbins, Ira |work=[[Trouser Press]]|url=http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=richard_hell_and_the_voidoids|accessdate=2007-10-23}}</ref><ref>Colegrave and Sullivan (2005), p. 78.</ref> Early female punk musicians displayed styles ranging from [[Siouxsie Sioux]]'s bondage gear to Patti Smith's "straight-from-the-gutter androgyny".<ref name="Strohm">Strohm (2004), p. 188.</ref> The former proved much more influential on female fan styles.<ref>See, e.g., Laing (1985), "Picture Section", p. 18.</ref> Over time, tattoos, [[Body piercing|piercings]], and metal-studded and -spiked accessories became increasingly common elements of [[punk fashion]] among both musicians and fans. The typical male punk haircut was originally short and choppy; the [[Mohawk hairstyle|Mohawk]] later emerged as a characteristic style.<ref>Wojcik (1995), pp. 16–19; Laing (1985), p. 109.</ref> Those in hardcore scenes often adopt a [[skinhead]] look. |
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== Genocide?? == |
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The characteristic stage performance style of male punk musicians does not deviate significantly from the macho postures classically associated with rock music.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 89, 97–98, 125.</ref> Female punk musicians broke more clearly from earlier styles. Scholar John Strohm suggests that they did so by creating personas of a type conventionally seen as masculine: "They adopted a tough, unladylike pose that borrowed more from the macho swagger of sixties garage bands than from the calculated bad-girl image of bands like [[The Runaways]]."<ref name="Strohm"/> Scholar Dave Laing describes how bassist [[Gaye Advert]] adopted fashion elements associated with male musicians only to generate a stage persona readily consumed as "sexy".<ref>Laing (1985), p. 92, 88.</ref> Laing focuses on more innovative and challenging performance styles, seen in the various erotically destabilizing approaches of Siouxsie Sioux, [[The Slits]]' [[Ari Up]], and [[X-Ray Spex]]'s [[Poly Styrene]].<ref>Laing (1985), p. 89, 92–93.</ref> |
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What is this nonsense about communist states and Genocide? This article should be about the idea of an communist state, not of the failure of some. And if so; then write it in a subsection. Let's not start about the "Capitalism and Iraq thing" shall we..? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 19:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:What nonsense? Your [[genocide denial]] because the [[WP:RS|sources provided]] were not pro-communist sources? I've reverted your edit and placed a warning on your talk page for removal of sourced content. Get out of your little communist fantasyland and join the real worl, in which communists are the biggest killers, before editing again. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 21:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC) |
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...Whoa, whoa! Don't get so upset! Just ask him for his proof. I may be new here, but I still think that there should be some civility here. (And how do you sign these comments?) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.208.60.88|128.208.60.88]] ([[User talk:128.208.60.88|talk]]) 05:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::Argy, please read the Wikipedia guide-lines, about sources. Also, maybe something about objectivity? There's no need for you to attack my person at all and I find it very much childish that [b]you changed my original comment[/b] - I did not write down "genocide state" but "communist state". I will go to a moderator if you continue this. Don't feel offended - you might think that the best skippers are standing on the shore - but, indeed, talk. This is is a talk page. Please do ask for my proof. Untill than: the article is restored --[[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 21:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC) |
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The lack of emphatic syncopation led [[punk dance]] to "deviant" forms. The characteristic style was originally the [[Pogo (dance)|pogo]].<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 34, 61, 63, 89–91.</ref> [[Sid Vicious]], before he became the Sex Pistols' bassist, is credited with initiating the pogo in Britain as an attendee at one of their concerts.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 90.</ref> [[Moshing]] is typical at hardcore shows. The lack of conventional dance rhythms was a central factor in limiting punk's mainstream commercial impact.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 34.</ref> |
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:::I did not change your original comment. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 23:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Breaking down the distance between performer and audience is central to the punk ethic.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 82.</ref> Fan participation at concerts is thus important; during the movement's first heyday, it was often provoked in an adversarial manner—apparently perverse, but appropriately "punk". First-wave British punk bands such as the Pistols and [[The Damned]] insulted and otherwise goaded the audience into intense reactions. Laing has identified three primary forms of audience physical response to goading: can throwing, stage invasion, and spitting or "gobbing".<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 84–85.</ref> In the hardcore realm, stage invasion is often a prelude to [[stage diving]]. In addition to the numerous fans who have started or joined punk bands, audience members also become important participants via the scene's many amateur periodicals—in England, according to Laing, punk "was the first musical genre to spawn [[fanzine]]s in any significant numbers".<ref>Laing (1985), p. 14.</ref> |
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:You state: ''This article should be about the idea of an communist state, not of the failure of some.''. That's incorrect. This article is about the theory '''and practice''' of Communist states. That includes the failures of Communism, which include, as a very significant feature of many Communist states, genocide. As many beleive that genocide is not an accidental feature of Communism, and there is thorough, reliable, and significant documentation of deliberate Communist genocide, it is entirely appropriate to mention that in the lead of the article. Trying to remove any mention of genocide, or to confine it to a sub-section, is as blatantly POV as not mentioning anti-semitism in the lead of the article on [[Nazism]]. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 23:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC) |
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==Pre-history== |
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===Garage rock and mod=== |
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:''For more details on these topics, see [[Garage rock]] and [[Mod (lifestyle)]].'' |
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In the early and mid-1960s, garage rock bands that came to be recognized as punk rock's progenitors began springing up in many different locations around North America. [[The Kingsmen]], a garage band from Portland, Oregon, had a breakout hit with their 1963 cover of "[[Louie, Louie]]", cited as "punk rock's defining [[Urtext edition|ur-text]]".<ref>Sabin (1999), p. 157.</ref> The minimalist sound of many garage rock bands was influenced by the harder-edged wing of the [[British Invasion]]. [[The Kinks]]' hit singles of 1964, "[[You Really Got Me]]" and "[[All Day and All of the Night]]", have been described as "predecessors of the whole three-chord genre—the Ramones' 1978 'I Don't Want You,' for instance, was pure Kinks-by-proxy".<ref>Harrington (2002), p. 165.</ref> In 1965, [[The Who]] quickly progressed from its debut single, "[[I Can't Explain]]", a virtual Kinks clone, to "[[My Generation (The Who song)|My Generation]]". Though it had little impact on the American charts, The Who's mod anthem presaged a more cerebral mix of musical ferocity and rebellious posture that characterized much early British punk rock: John Reed describes The Clash's emergence as a "tight ball of energy with both an image and rhetoric reminiscent of a young [[Pete Townshend]]—speed obsession, pop-art clothing, art school ambition".<ref>Reed (2005), p. 49.</ref> The Who and fellow mods [[The Small Faces]] were among the few rock elders acknowledged by the Sex Pistols.<ref>Fletcher (2000), p. 497.</ref> By 1966, mod was already in decline. U.S. garage rock began to lose steam within a couple of years, but the aggressive musical approach and outsider attitude of "garage [[psychedelic rock|psych]]" bands like [[The Seeds]] were picked up and emphasized by groups that were later seen as the crucial figures of protopunk. |
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::Come now, Angry you, that's not how we play the game - the urge to destroy that which we cannot tolerate is as unbecoming on you as is was on Stalin or Pol Pot. I, for my part, may rest easy in the knowledge that my ''magnificent'' sense of humor (and legitimate criticism of your source material) is <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Communist_state&oldid=191092768 preserved for the ages]</span>, but don't let our little lover's spat cause you to delete the commentary of innocent bystanders - they didn't bother you that much two days ago...[[User:Calzero|Calzero]] ([[User talk:Calzero|talk]]) 02:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC) |
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===Protopunk=== |
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:::For all your flippancy, you don't actually say much. In particular, for all your derision, you never once explain what is wrong with Rummel's compilations, or why they should not be taken seriously. As you haven't actually contributed anything of use to this article, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously anymore. |
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{{Details|Protopunk}} |
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In 1969, debut albums by two [[Michigan]]-based bands appeared that are commonly regarded as the central protopunk records. In January, Detroit's [[MC5]] released ''[[Kick Out the Jams]]''. "Musically the group is intentionally crude and aggressively raw", wrote critic [[Lester Bangs]] in ''[[Rolling Stone]]'': |
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<blockquote> |
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Most of the songs are barely distinguishable from each other in their primitive two-chord structures. You've heard all this before from such notables as the Seeds, [[Blue Cheer]], [[? & the Mysterians|Question Mark and the Mysterians]], and the Kingsmen. The difference here ... is in the hype, the thick overlay of teenage-revolution and total-energy-thing which conceals these scrapyard vistas of clichés and ugly noise. ... "I Want You Right Now" sounds exactly (down to the lyrics) like a song called "I Want You" by [[the Troggs]], a British group who came on with a similar sex-and-raw-sound image a couple of years ago (remember "[[Wild Thing (The Troggs song)|Wild Thing]]"?)<ref>[http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/mc5/albums/album/105316/review/5941601/kick_out_the_jams MC5: ''Kick Out the Jams''] review by Lester Bangs, ''[[Rolling Stone]]'', April 5, 1969. Retrieved on January 16, 2007.</ref> |
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</blockquote>[[Image:Iggy pop davis b&w 1.jpg|thumb|right|[[Iggy Pop]], the "godfather of punk"]] |
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That August, [[The Stooges]], from [[Ann Arbor, Michigan|Ann Arbor]], premiered with a [[The Stooges (album)|self-titled album]]. According to critic [[Greil Marcus]], the band, led by singer [[Iggy Pop]], created "the sound of [[Chuck Berry]]'s Airmobile—after thieves stripped it for parts".<ref>Marcus (1979), p. 294.</ref> The album was produced by [[John Cale]], a former member of New York's experimental rock group [[The Velvet Underground]]. Having earned a "reputation as the first underground rock band", VU inspired, directly or indirectly, many of those involved in the creation of punk rock.<ref>Taylor (2003), p. 49.</ref> |
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I will again delete the statement about Genocide. Why? Because Genocide means "whiping (read: trying to whipe out)" people - based on etnical reasons (Holocaust). Yes, this did occur in the USSR when Stalin's anti-seministic thoughts broke out. But did this happen in Cuba? Did this happen in North-Korea? Did this happen anywhere else (Tibet disputable though!)? Genocide - based on etnical (or religous) reasons? No. It is wrong to characterize this with "the Communist States". You're reasoning Argy is totally wrong. It is wrong to think that just because the Supermarket is selling eggs, that it also lays them! |
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In the early 1970s, the [[New York Dolls]] updated the original wildness of 1950s rock 'n' roll in a fashion that later became known as [[glam punk]].<ref>Harrington (2002), p. 538.</ref> The New York duo [[Suicide (band)|Suicide]] played spare, experimental music with a confrontational stage act inspired by that of The Stooges. At the Coventry club in the New York City borough of [[Queens]], [[The Dictators]] used rock as a vehicle for wise-ass attitude and humor.<ref>Bessman (1993), pp. 9–10.</ref> In Boston, [[The Modern Lovers]], led by Velvet Underground devotee [[Jonathan Richman]], gained attention with a minimalistic style. In 1974, an updated garage rock scene began to coalesce around the newly opened [[The Rathskeller|Rathskeller]] club in [[Kenmore Square]]. Among the leading acts were the [[Real Kids]], founded by former Modern Lover [[John Felice]]; [[Willie Alexander|Willie Alexander and the Boom Boom Band]], whose frontman had been a member of the Velvet Underground for a few months in 1971; and [[Mickey Clean and the Mezz]].<ref>Andersen and Jenkins (2001), p. 12. {{cite web | last =Vaughan| first = Robin| title = Reality Bites| work = Boston Phoenix| url = http://bostonphoenix.com/boston/music/cellars/documents/02927794.htm|date = June 6–12, 2003| accessdate =}} {{cite web | last =Harvard| first = Joe| title = Mickey Clean and the Mezz| work = Boston Rock Storybook | url = http://www.rockinboston.com/themezz.htm| accessdate =}} {{cite web | last =Robbins | first = Ira| title = Wille Alexander| work = Trouser Press Guide | url = http://trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=willie_alexander_and_the_boom_boom_band| accessdate = 2007-11-27}}</ref> In Ohio, a small but very influential underground rock scene emerged, led by [[Devo]] in [[Akron, Ohio|Akron]] and [[Kent, Ohio|Kent]] and Cleveland's [[Electric Eels (band)|The Electric Eels]], [[Mirrors (band)|Mirrors]], and [[Rocket from the Tombs]]. In 1975, Rocket from the Tombs split into [[Pere Ubu]] and [[The Dead Boys|Frankenstein]]. The Electric Eels and Mirrors both broke up, and [[The Styrenes (band)|The Styrenes]] emerged from the fallout.<ref>Klimek, Jamie, [http://www.jilmar.com/mirrors/story.html "Mirrors"], ''Jilmar Music''; Jäger, Rolf, [http://www.rent-a-dog.com/english/catalogue/styrenes.html "Styrenes—A Brief History"], ''Rent a Dog''. Both retrieved on November 27, 2007.</ref> |
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Yes, I give: revolution mostly is paired with mass-murders - but that's apple. We're talking about peares. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 20:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:The extermination of the kulaks is a genocide, as is every other Communist attempt to wipe out members of the productive classes '''and their families and relatives'''. [[Genocide]] is defined as ''any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such''. However, as the "in part" is arguable, I'm going to restore the text, replacing "genocide" with "mass murder". <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 21:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC) |
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a part so americans/capitalist genocide iraqeni, vietnamites, japanese, germans, italians, redskins and many others?--[[User:Francomemoria|Francomemoria]] ([[User talk:Francomemoria|talk]]) 00:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Britain's [[The Deviants (band)|Deviants]], in the late 1960s, played in a range of psychedelic styles with a satiric, anarchic edge and a penchant for [[Situationist International|situationist]]-style spectacle presaging the Sex Pistols by almost a decade.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.thanatosoft.freeserve.co.uk/supermarketfiles/strangedays.htm|title=Interview with Mick Farren|Publisher = ''Strange Days'' (Japan)|first=Toshikazu|last=Ohtaka|co-author=Akagawa, Yukiko |accessdate=2008-01-10|quote=Soundwise, we wanted to be incredibly loud and violent! That says it all. The hippies wanted to be nice and gentle, but our style was the opposite of that peaceful, natural attitude.}}</ref> In 1970, the act evolved into the [[Pink Fairies]], which carried on in a similar vein.<ref>Unterberger (1998), pp. 86–91.</ref> With his [[The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars|Ziggy Stardust]] persona, [[David Bowie]] made artifice and exaggeration central—elements, again, that were picked up by the Pistols and certain other punk acts.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 24–26.</ref> The [[Doctors of Madness]] built on Bowie's presentation concepts, while moving musically in the direction that would become identified with punk. Bands in London's [[Pub rock (UK)|pub rock]] scene stripped the music back to its basics, playing hard, R&B-influenced rock 'n' roll. By 1974, the scene's top act, [[Dr. Feelgood (band)|Dr. Feelgood]], was paving the way for others such as [[The Stranglers]] and [[Cock Sparrer]] that would play a role in the punk explosion. Among the pub rock bands that formed that year was [[The 101ers|The 101'ers]], whose lead singer would soon adopt the name [[Joe Strummer]].<ref>Robb (2006), p. 51.</ref> |
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:Ah, yes Argy - finaly logic is starting to take over - but not quite. A Communist State does not mean that the State is Communist - it can also be mean that a Communist-party is ruling it (see paragraph below). Mass murder does not occur in those states. Yes, mass murders did occur, but these were more because of Social-economic instability, than by Communism. You still seem very reluctant to understand where this article is about. We already have a dozen pages on wiki concerning mass-murders, you can link them - however, don't characterize the article with them!--[[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 00:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Bands anticipating the forthcoming movement were appearing as far afield as [[Düsseldorf]], West Germany, where "punk before punk" band [[Neu!|NEU!]] formed in 1971, building on the [[Krautrock]] tradition of groups such as [[Can (band)|Can]].<ref name="trouser2">{{cite web | last =Neate| first = Wilson| title = NEU! | work = Trouser Press | url = http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=neu | accessdate = 2007-01-11}}</ref> In Japan, the anti-establishment [[Zunō Keisatsu]] (Brain Police) mixed garage psych and folk. The combo regularly faced censorship challenges, their live act at least once including onstage masturbation.<ref>Anderson (2002), p. 588.</ref> A new generation of Australian garage rock bands, inspired mainly by The Stooges and MC5, was coming even closer to the sound that would soon be called "punk": In [[Brisbane]], [[The Saints (band)|The Saints]] also recalled the raw live sound of the British [[Pretty Things]], who had made a notorious tour of Australia and New Zealand in 1965.<ref>Unterberger (2000), p. 18.</ref> [[Radio Birdman]], cofounded by Detroit expatriate [[Deniz Tek]] in 1974, was playing gigs to a small but fanatical following in [[Sydney]]. |
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"Communist states are also known for mas murder of their citizens, sometimes amounting to millions of deaths." - I'm sorry Argy, but this still isn't acceptable. You're kind of generalizing. Do you chop down all the trees when one leave falls on your head?... <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 00:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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===Origin of the term ''punk''=== |
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:You have to demonstrate the falsity of the statement, which is impossible, as Communist states ''do'' kill very large numbers of their citizens. I've replaced the statement. Leave it in unless you can show that the facts are incorrect, or that the wording is biased. Stating facts which make Communists look bad isn't bias. Read the bit in [[WP:NPOV]] about Hitler - this is the same sort of situation. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 23:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Prior to the mid-1970s, ''[[Wiktionary:Punk|punk]]'', a centuries-old word of obscure [[etymology]], was commonly used to describe "a young male hustler, a gangster, a hoodlum, or a ruffian".<ref>Leblanc (1999), p. 35.</ref> As [[Legs McNeil]] explains, "On TV, if you watched cop shows, ''[[Kojak]]'', ''[[Baretta]]'', when the cops finally catch the mass murderer, they'd say, 'you dirty Punk.' It was what your teachers would call you. It meant that you were the lowest."<ref>Quoted in Leblanc (1999), p. 35.</ref> The first known use of the phrase "punk rock" appeared in the ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' on March 22, 1970, attributed to [[Ed Sanders]], cofounder of New York's anarcho-prankster band [[The Fugs]]. Sanders was quoted describing a solo album of his as "punk rock—redneck sentimentality".<ref>Shapiro (2006), p. 492.</ref> In the December 1970 issue of ''[[Creem]]'', Lester Bangs, mocking more mainstream rock musicians, made ironic reference to Iggy Pop as "that Stooge punk".<ref>Bangs, Lester, [http://www.creemmagazine.com/_site/BeatGoesOn/IggyPop/OfPopAndPiesPt001.html "Of Pop and Pies and Fun"], ''Creem'', December 1970. Retrieved on November 29, 2007.</ref> Suicide's [[Alan Vega]] credits this usage with inspiring his duo to bill its gigs as a "punk mass" for the next couple of years.<ref>Nobahkt (2004), p. 38.</ref> |
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[[Image:Patti Smith Copenhagen 1976.jpg|thumb|right|[[Patti Smith]], performing in 1976]] |
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[[Dave Marsh]] was the first music critic to employ the term ''punk rock''—in the May 1971 issue of ''Creem'', he described [[? and the Mysterians]] as giving a "landmark exposition of punk rock".<ref>Shapiro (2006), p. 492. Note that Taylor (2003) misidentifies the year of publication as 1970 (p. 16) as does Scott Woods in the introduction to his interview with Marsh: [http://www.rockcritics.com/interview/davemarsh.html "A Meaty, Beaty, Big, and Bouncy Interview with Dave Marsh"]. rockcritics.com. Retrieved on December 26, 2006.</ref> In June 1972, the fanzine ''Flash'' included a "Punk Top Ten" of 1960s albums.<ref>Taylor (2003), p. 16.</ref> That year, [[Lenny Kaye]] used the term in the liner notes of the anthology album ''[[Nuggets: Original Artyfacts from the First Psychedelic Era, 1965-1968|Nuggets]]'' to refer to 1960s garage rock bands such as [[The Standells]], [[The Sonics]], and The Seeds.<ref name="letitrock">Houghton, Mick, "White Punks on Coke", ''Let It Rock''. December 1975.</ref> The fanzine ''[[Who Put the Bomp|Bomp!]]'' also used ''punk'' in this sense.<ref name "sav131">Savage (1991), p. 131.</ref> In May 1973, [[Billy Altman]] launched the short-lived ''punk magazine''.<ref>Laing (1985), p. 13; [http://www.punkmagazine.com/stuff/morestuff/listening_party7.html "Punk Magazine Listening Party # 7"], ''Punk Magazine'', July 20, 2001. Retrieved on March 4, 2008.</ref> Bassist Jeff Jensen of Boston's Real Kids reports of a 1974 show, "A reviewer for one of the free entertainment magazines of the time caught the act and gave us a great review, calling us a 'punk band.' ... [W]e all sort of looked at each other and said, 'What's punk?'"<ref>Harvard, Joe, [http://www.rockinboston.com/realkids.htm "Real Kids"], ''Boston Rock Storybook''. Retrieved on November 27, 2007.</ref> |
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:: No offence, but I did, now please reply my to arguments, you have been avoiding them all the time. It kind of makes me tired. You did not even reply to Calzo. Come on now! And, why would a statement have to be stated if it's falsity can not be proved? | Have you again deleted somebody's comment? Calzo's page is not available any more...hmmm... --[[Special:Contributions/83.84.138.101|83.84.138.101]] ([[User talk:83.84.138.101|talk]]) 19:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC) |
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By 1975, ''punk'' was being used to describe acts as diverse as the [[Patti Smith|Patti Smith Group]]—with lead guitarist Lenny Kaye—the [[Bay City Rollers]], and [[Bruce Springsteen]].<ref name "sav131"/> As the scene at New York's [[CBGB]] club attracted notice, a name was sought for the developing sound. Club owner [[Hilly Kristal]] called the movement "street rock"; John Holmstrom credits ''[[The Aquarian Weekly|Aquarian]]'' magazine with using ''punk'' "to describe what was going on at CBGBs".<ref>Savage (1991), pp. 130–131.</ref> Holmstrom, McNeil, and Ged Dunn's magazine ''[[Punk (magazine)|Punk]]'', which debuted at the end of 1975, was crucial in codifying the term.<ref>Taylor (2003), pp. 16–17.</ref> "It was pretty obvious that the word was getting very popular", Holmstrom later remarked. "We figured we'd take the name before anyone else claimed it. We wanted to get rid of the bullshit, strip it down to rock 'n' roll. We wanted the fun and liveliness back."<ref name "sav131"/> |
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==So not all communist states are communist states?== |
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==Early history== |
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"Communist states may have several legal political parties, but the Communist Party is constitutionally guaranteed a dominant role in government." |
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===New York City=== |
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If a state has a communist party governing it, is it not a communist state even if other parties would be able to take the communist party's place in the government?-- [[Special:Contributions/213.67.208.186|213.67.208.186]] ([[User talk:213.67.208.186|talk]]) 22:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Other parties were not able to take over, because in all cases the minor parties did not ''compete'' with the CP for power, they worked ''with'' it. There is only one historical example of a socialist (not communist) state where parties actively competed with one another within the united front. —[[User:Sesel|Sesel]] ([[User talk:Sesel|talk]]) 23:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC) |
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The origins of New York's punk rock scene can be traced back to such sources as late 1960s [[trash culture]] and an early 1970s [[underground rock]] movement centered around the Mercer Arts Center in [[Greenwich Village]], where the New York Dolls performed.<ref>Savage (1991), pp. 86–90, 59–60.</ref> In early 1974, a new scene began to develop around the [[CBGB]] club, also in [[lower Manhattan]]. At its core was [[Television (band)|Television]], described by critic John Walker as "the ultimate garage band with pretensions".<ref name="W">Walker (1991), p. 662.</ref> Their influences ranged from garage [[Psychedelic rock|psych]] pioneer [[Roky Erickson]] to jazz innovator [[John Coltrane]]. The band's bassist/singer, [[Richard Hell]], created a look with cropped, ragged hair, ripped T-shirts, and black leather jackets credited as the basis for punk rock visual style.<ref name="S89">Savage (1992), p. 89.</ref> In April 1974, [[Patti Smith]], a member of the Mercer Arts Center crowd and a friend of Hell's, came to CBGB for the first time to see the band perform.<ref>Bockris and Bayley (1999), p. 102.</ref> A veteran of independent theater and performance poetry, Smith was developing an intellectual, feminist take on rock 'n' roll. On June 5, she recorded the single "[[Hey Joe]]"/"[[Piss Factory]]", featuring Television guitarist [[Tom Verlaine]]; released on her own Mer Records label, it heralded the scene's [[do it yourself]] (DIY) ethic and has often been cited as the first punk rock record.<ref>{{cite web|title=Patti Smith—Biography|publisher=Arista Records|url=http://www.arista.com/psmith/smithbio.html|accessdate=2007-10-23}} Savage (1991), p. 91; Pareles and Romanowski (1983), p. 511; Bockris and Bayley (1999), p. 106.</ref> By August, Smith and Television were gigging together at another downtown New York club, [[Max's Kansas City]].<ref name="S89"/> |
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==Sattelite state / client state== |
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Out in [[Forest Hills, Queens]], several miles from lower Manhattan, the members of a newly formed band adopted a common surname. Drawing on sources ranging from the Stooges to [[The Beatles]] and [[The Beach Boys]] to [[Herman's Hermits]] and 1960s [[girl group]]s, the [[Ramones]] condensed rock 'n' roll to its primal level: "'1-2-3-4!' bass-player [[Dee Dee Ramone]] shouted at the start of every song, as if the group could barely master the rudiments of rhythm."<ref>Savage (1991), pp. 90–91.</ref> The band played its first gig at CBGB on August 16, 1974. Another new act, [[Blondie (band)|Blondie]], also debuted at the club that month. By the end of the year, the Ramones had performed seventy-four shows, each about seventeen minutes long.<ref>Bessman (1993), p. 27.</ref> "When I first saw the Ramones", critic Mary Harron later remembered, "I couldn't believe people were doing this. The dumb brattiness."<ref>Savage (1991), pp. 132–133.</ref> The Dictators, with a similar "playing dumb" concept, were recording their debut album. ''[[The Dictators Go Girl Crazy!]]'' came out in March 1975, mixing absurdist originals such as "Master Race Rock" and loud, straight-faced covers of cheese pop like [[Sonny & Cher]]'s "[[I Got You Babe]]".<ref>{{cite web|author=Deming, Mark|title="''The Dictators Go Girl Crazy!''" (review)|publisher=Allmusic|url=http://wm10.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:gvfixql5ldje|accessdate=2007-12-27}}</ref> |
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It seems to me as a classic POV to refer to those in the soviet sphere of influence as "sattelite state" (negative connotations) and to those in the american sphere of influence as "client state" (neutral connotations). Other Opinions ?-- <span style="background-color: White">[[User:ExplicitImplicity|<span style="color:black">ExpImp</span>]]<sup>[[User Talk:ExplicitImplicity|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/ExplicitImplicity|<span style="color:red">con</span>]]</sup></span> 23:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC) |
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That spring, Smith and Television shared a two-month-long weekend residency at CBGB that brought major attention to the club.<ref>Bockris and Bayley (1999), p. 119.</ref> The Television sets included Richard Hell's "Blank Generation", which became the scene's emblematic anthem.<ref>Savage (1992) claims that "Blank Generation" was written around this time (p. 90). However, the Richard Hell anthology album ''Spurts'' includes a live Television recording of the song that he dates "spring 1974."</ref> Soon after, Hell left Television and founded a band featuring a more stripped-down sound, [[The Heartbreakers]], with former New York Dolls [[Johnny Thunders]] and [[Jerry Nolan]]. The pairing of Hell and Thunders, in one critical assessment, "inject[ed] a poetic intelligence into mindless self-destruction".<ref name="RHV"/> In August, Television—with Fred Smith, former Blondie bassist, replacing Hell—recorded a single, "Little Johnny Jewel", for the tiny Ork label. In the words of John Walker, the record was "a turning point for the whole New York scene" if not quite for the punk rock sound itself—Hell's departure had left the band "significantly reduced in fringe aggression".<ref name="W"/> |
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:The term client state is not used within the current form of this article. --([[User:Ptah, the El Daoud|Ptah, the El Daoud]] 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)) |
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[[Image:CBGB club facade.jpg|thumb|left|Facade of legendary music club [[CBGB]], New York]] |
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Other bands were becoming regulars at CBGB, such as [[Mink DeVille]] and [[Talking Heads]], which moved down from Rhode Island. More closely associated with Max's Kansas City were Suicide and the band led by drag queen [[Jayne County|Wayne County]], another Mercer Arts Center alumna. The first album to come out of this downtown scene was released in November 1975: Smith's debut, ''[[Horses (album)|Horses]]'', produced by John Cale for the major [[Arista Records|Arista]] label.<ref>Walsh (2006), p. 27.</ref> The inaugural issue of ''Punk'' appeared in December.<ref>Savage (1991), p. 132.</ref> The new magazine tied together earlier artists such as Velvet Underground lead singer [[Lou Reed]], the Stooges, and the New York Dolls with the editors' favorite band, The Dictators, and the array of new acts centered around CBGB and Max's.<ref>Walsh (2006), pp. 15, 24; for ''Punk'', Wayne County, and punk homosexuality, see McNeil and McCain (2006), pp. 272–275; Savage (1992), p. 139; for CBGB's closing in 2006, see, e.g., Damian Fowler, [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6054042.stm "Legendary punk club CBGB closes"], [[BBC News]], October 16, 2006. Retrieved on December 11, 2006.</ref> That winter, Pere Ubu came in from Cleveland and played at both spots.<ref>Savage (1992), p. 137.</ref> |
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::It is classic POV to call American allies "client states", when most were not taking direct orders from Washington, the way the Soviet sattelites were. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 21:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC) |
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Early in 1976, Hell left The Heartbreakers; he soon formed a new group that would become known as [[The Voidoids]], "one of the most harshly uncompromising bands" on the scene.<ref>Pareles and Romanowski (1983), p. 249.</ref> That April, the Ramones' debut album was released by [[Sire Records]]; the first single was "[[Blitzkrieg Bop]]", opening with the rally cry "Hey! Ho! Let's go!" According to a later description, "Like all cultural watersheds, ''[[Ramones (album)|Ramones]]'' was embraced by a discerning few and slagged off as a bad joke by the uncomprehending majority."<ref name="trouser3"> {{cite web|title=Ramones|author=Isler, Scott; Robbins, Ira|work=Trouser Press|url=http://trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=ramones|accessdate=2007-10-23}}</ref> At the instigation of Ramones lead singer [[Joey Ramone]], the members of Cleveland's Frankenstein moved east to join the New York scene. Reconstituted as the [[Dead Boys]], they played their first CBGB gig in late July.<ref>Adams (2002), p. 369; McNeil and McCain (2006), pp. 233–234.</ref> In August, Ork put out an [[Extended play#The 7" EP in punk rock|EP]] recorded by Hell with his new band that included the first released version of "Blank Generation".<ref>{{cite web|title=Richard Hell—Another World/Blank Generation/You Gotta Lose|publisher=Discogs|url=http://www.discogs.com/release/984363|accessdate=2007-10-23}} Buckley (2003), p. 485.</ref> |
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:::most where not taking direct orders from Washington? So all the dictatorships in south america didnt take direct orders from Washington?? thats a Lie! <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/200.117.7.6|200.117.7.6]] ([[User talk:200.117.7.6|talk]]) 22:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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The term ''punk'' initially referred to the scene in general, more than the sound itself—the early New York punk bands represented a broad variety of influences. Among them, the Ramones, The Heartbreakers, Richard Hell and The Voidoids, and the Dead Boys were establishing a distinct musical style; even where they diverged most clearly, in lyrical approach—the Ramones' apparent guilelessness at one extreme, Hell's conscious craft at the other—there was an abrasive attitude in common. Their shared attributes of minimalism and speed, however, had not yet come to define punk rock.<ref>Walsh (2006), p. 8.</ref> |
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== List of Defunct Communist states == |
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===Other U.S. cities=== |
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In 1975, [[Suicide Commandos]] formed in Minneapolis—one of the first U.S. bands outside of New York to play in the Ramones-style harder-louder-faster mode that would define punk rock.<ref>Unterberger (1999), p. 319.</ref> As the punk movement expanded rapidly in the United Kingdom in 1976, a few bands with similar tastes and attitude appeared around the United States. The first West Coast punk scenes emerged in San Francisco, with the bands [[Crime (band)|Crime]] and [[The Nuns]],<ref>Unterberger (1999), p. 426.</ref> and Seattle, where the [[Telepaths (band)|Telepaths]], [[Meyce]], and [[The Screamers#History|The Tupperwares]] played a groundbreaking show on May 1.<ref>Humphrey, Clark. [http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=2374 "Rock Music—Seattle"]. HistoryLink.org, May 4, 2000. Retrieved on November 26, 2007.</ref> Rock critic [[Richard Meltzer]] cofounded [[VOM (punk rock band)|VOM]] (short for "vomit") in Los Angeles. In Washington, D.C., raucous roots-rockers [[The Razz]] helped along a nascent punk scene featuring [[Overkill (D.C. band)|Overkill]], the [[Slickee Boys]], and [[The Look (punk rock band)|The Look]]. Around the turn of the year, [[White Boy]] began giving notoriously crazed performances.<ref>Andersen and Jenkins (2001), pp. 2–13.</ref> In Boston, the scene at the Rathskeller—affectionately known as the Rat—was also turning toward punk, though the defining sound retained a distinct [[garage rock]] orientation. Among the city's first new acts to be identified with punk rock was [[DMZ (band)|DMZ]].<ref>{{cite web | last =Robbins| first = Ira| title = DMZ | work = Trouser Press | url = http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=dmz| accessdate =2007-12-01}} Donnelly, Ben, [http://www.dustedmagazine.com/reviews/143 "DMZ"], ''Dusted''. Both retrieved on November 29, 2007.</ref> In Bloomington, Indiana, [[The Gizmos]] played in a jokey, raunchy, Dictators-inspired style later referred to as "frat punk".<ref>{{cite web | last =Lovell| first = Paul| title = Interview with Kenne Gizmo | work = Boston Groupie News | url =http://www.bostongroupienews.com/BGNGizmoInterview.htm|year =1978| accessdate =2007-12-28}} {{cite web | last =Eddy| first = Chuck| title = Eddytor's Dozen | work = Village Voice | url =http://www.killerskiss.com/press/EddytorsDozen.htm|date =2005-07-15| accessdate =2007-12-28}}</ref> |
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I think the chart listing defunct Communist states should be restored as it's quite useful, particularly as it also lists ruling parties, and as all the states listed are mentioned in the body of the article (if it's not original research to mention them in the text, it shouldn't be to list them in a chart). [[User:General Idea|General Idea]] 01:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC) |
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Like their garage rock predecessors, these local scenes were facilitated by enthusiastic impresarios who operated nightclubs or organized concerts in venues such as schools, garages, or warehouses, advertised via inexpensively printed flyers and fanzines. In some cases, punk's do it yourself ethic reflected an aversion to commercial success, as well as a desire to maintain creative and financial autonomy.<ref>Ross, Alex. "[http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/05/kurt_cobain.html Generation Exit: Kurt Cobain]". ''The New Yorker'', April 1994. Retrieved January 2, 2007.</ref> As Joe Harvard, a participant in the Boston scene, describes, it was often a simple necessity—the absence of a local recording industry and well-distributed music magazines left little recourse but DIY.<ref>Harvard, Joe, [http://www.rockinboston.com/boomboom.htm "Willie "Loco" Alexander and the Boom Boom Band"], ''Boston Rock Storybook''. Retrieved November 27, 2007.</ref> |
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:The table was a hub of original research: there were no sources to suggest that historians refer to those former states as "communist states." Also, this article is about a formal constitutional structure known as a communist state, not about particular countries or regimes and their histories. -- [[User:WGee|WGee]] 07:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC) |
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===Australia=== |
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At the same time, a similar music-based subculture was beginning to take shape in various parts of Australia. A scene was developing around Radio Birdman and its main performance venue, the Oxford Tavern (later the Oxford Funhouse), located in Sydney's [[Darlinghurst]] suburb. In December 1975, the group won the ''RAM (Rock Australia Magazine)''/Levi's Punk Band Thriller competition.<ref>Buckley (2003), p. 3; McFarlane (1999), p. 507.</ref> By 1976, The Saints were hiring Brisbane [[Hall (concept)#Public halls|local hall]]s to use as venues, or playing in "Club 76", their shared house in the inner suburb of [[Brisbane central business district#Petrie Terrace|Petrie Terrace]]. The band soon discovered that musicians were exploring similar paths in other parts of the world. [[Ed Kuepper]], coleader of The Saints, later recalled: |
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One thing I remember having had a really depressing effect on me was the first Ramones album. When I heard it [in 1976], I mean it was a great record ... but I hated it because I knew we’d been doing this sort of stuff for years. There was even a [[chord progression]] on that album that we used ... and I thought, "Fuck. We’re going to be labeled as influenced by the Ramones", when nothing could have been further from the truth.<ref name="ABC">{{cite web | author= Australian Broadcasting Corporation | date= October 2, 2003| title="Misfits and Malcontents" | work=abc.net.au| url=http://www.abc.net.au/arts/music/stories/s780315.htm | accessmonthday= November 1 | accessyear=2006}}</ref> |
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::How is it original research if it just charts information that's already listed in the article? [[User:General Idea|General Idea]] 01:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
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On the other side of Australia, in [[Perth, Western Australia|Perth]], germinal punk rock act the [[The Manikins|Cheap Nasties]], featuring singer-guitarist [[Kim Salmon]], formed in August.<ref>McFarlane (1999), p. 548.</ref> In September, The Saints became the first punk rock band outside the U.S. to release a recording, the single "[[(I'm) Stranded (song)|(I'm) Stranded]]". As with Patti Smith's debut, the band self-financed, packaged, and distributed the single.<ref>{{cite web | author= Beaumont, Lucy | date=[[2007-08-17]] | title=<nowiki>"Great Australian Albums [TV review]" </nowiki> | work= The Age | url=http://www.theage.com.au/news/tv-reviews/great-australian-albums/2007/08/17/1186857752215.html | accessdate=2007-09-22}} {{cite web | author= Gook, Ben | date=[[2007-08-16]] | title=<nowiki>"Great Australian Albums The Saints – (I'm) Stranded [DVD review]" </nowiki> | work=Mess+Noise | url=http://www.messandnoise.com/releases/5734 | accessdate=2007-09-22}}</ref> "(I'm) Stranded" had limited impact at home, but the British music press recognized it as a groundbreaking record.<ref>Stafford (2006), pp. 57–76.</ref> At the insistence of their superiors in the UK, [[EMI]] Australia signed The Saints. Meanwhile, Radio Birdman came out with a self-financed EP, ''[[Burn My Eye]]'', in October.<ref name="M507">McFarlane (1999), p. 507.</ref> ''[[Trouser Press]]'' critic Ian McCaleb later described the record as the "archetype for the musical explosion that was about to occur".<ref>McCaleb (1991), p. 529.</ref> |
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:::I don't see a list of defunct communist states in the article, and it wouldn't matter if there was one either because there were no sources (see [[WP:V]]). -- [[User:WGee|WGee]] 05:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
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===United Kingdom=== |
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After a brief period unofficially managing the New York Dolls, Englishman [[Malcolm McLaren]] returned to London in May 1975, inspired by the new scene he had witnessed at CBGB. He opened [[SEX (boutique)|Sex]], a clothing store specializing in outrageous "anti-fashion".<ref>[http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thesexpistols/biography "The Sex Pistols"], ''Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock 'n' Roll'' (2001). Retrieved on September 11, 2006; Robb (2006), pp. 83–87; Savage (1992), pp. 99–103.</ref> Among those who frequented the shop were members of a band called The Swankers. In August, the group was seeking a new lead singer. Another Sex habitué, [[Johnny Rotten]], auditioned for and won the job; McLaren became the band's manager. Adopting a new name, the group played its first gig as the [[Sex Pistols]] on November 5, 1975, at [[Central Saint Martins College of Art and Design|St. Martin's School of Art]]<ref>Colegrave and Sullivan (2005), p. 19.</ref> and soon attracted a small but ardent following.<ref>"[http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/bromley.htm The Bromley Contingent]", punk77.co.uk. Retrieved on December 3, 2006.</ref> In February 1976, the band received its first significant press coverage; guitarist [[Steve Jones (musician)|Steve Jones]] declared that the Pistols were not so much into music as they were "chaos".<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 151–152. The quote has been variously ascribed to McLaren (e.g., Laing [1985], pp. 97, 127) and Rotten (e.g., [http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A791336 "Punk Music in Britain"], BBC, October 7, 2002), but Savage directly cites the ''[[NME|New Musical Express]]'' issue in which the quote originally appeared. As no contemporary evidence has been put forward in contradiction, the Jones attribution is clearly correct.</ref> The band often provoked its crowds into near-riots. Rotten announced to one audience, "Bet you don't hate us as much as we hate you!"<ref>Quoted in Friedlander and Miller (2006), p. 252.</ref> McLaren envisioned the Pistols as central players in a new youth movement, "hard and tough".<ref>Quoted in Savage (1992), p. 163.</ref> As described by critic Jon Savage, the band members "embodied an attitude into which McLaren fed a new set of references: late-sixties radical politics, sexual fetish material, pop history, ... youth sociology".<ref>Savage (1992), p. 163.</ref> |
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:::General Idea, the chart was a hub for original research because it encouraged editors to list terms associated with various events that did not refer to entities widely recognized by historians and political scientists as "states," such as the "[[Soviet Republic of Naissaar]]," the "[[Limerick Soviet]]," and the "[[Azerbaijan People's Government]]." It also encouraged editors to frequntly add regimes such as Nicaragua under the Sandinstas and Granada before the 1983 U.S. invasion, which had not clearly established constitutional structures formalizing single party Communist leadership. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 06:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
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[[Bernard Rhodes]], a sometime associate of McLaren's and friend of the Pistols', was similarly trying to make stars of the band [[London SS]]. Early in 1976, the group broke up, spinning off two new bands: [[The Damned]] and [[The Clash]], which was joined by [[Joe Strummer]], The 101'ers former lead singer.<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 124, 171, 172.</ref> On June 4, 1976, the Sex Pistols played Manchester's [[Free Trade Hall|Lesser Free Trade Hall]] in what came to be regarded as one of the most influential rock shows ever. Among the approximately forty audience members were the three locals who had organized the gig—they soon began performing as the [[Buzzcocks]]. Others in the small crowd went on to form [[Joy Division]], [[The Fall (band)|The Fall]], and—in the 1980s—[[The Smiths]].<ref>{{cite web | date=[[2006-06-27]]| title="Sex Pistols Gig: The Truth" | publisher= BBC | url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/05/11/110506_sex_pistols_gig_feature.shtml | accessdate=2007-12-29}}</ref> |
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Perhaps we could create a new list and minimize the threat of original research by setting up clear criteria for what counts as a "communist state". For example, the state must make references to Marxism-Leninism in its constitution - this would be particularly useful in eliminating short-lived entities because they never had the time to pass constitutions. For verifiability, we could require links to the relevant parts of the constitutions of the countries in question. -- [[User:Nikodemos|Nikodemos]] 23:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
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In July, the Ramones crossed the Atlantic for two London shows that helped spark the nascent UK punk scene, an impact that was later exaggerated by the band's members.<ref>Taylor (2003), p. 56; McNeil and McCain (2006), pp. 230–233.</ref> On July 4, they played with the [[The Flamin Groovies|Flamin' Groovies]] and [[The Stranglers]] before a crowd of 2,000 at the [[Roundhouse (venue)|Roundhouse]].<ref>Robb (2006), p. 198.</ref> That same night, The Clash debuted, opening for the Sex Pistols in [[Sheffield]]. On July 5, members of both bands attended a Ramones club gig.<ref>Taylor (2003), p. 56.</ref> The following night, The Damned played their first show, as a Pistols opening act in London. In critic [[Kurt Loder]]'s description, the Pistols purveyed a "calculated, arty nihilism, [while] the Clash were unabashed idealists, proponents of a radical left-wing social critique of a sort that reached back at least to ... [[Woody Guthrie]] in the 1940s".<ref>{{cite web | author=Loder, Kurt | date=[[2003-03-10]]| title="The Clash: Ducking Bottles, Asking Questions" | publisher= MTV.com | url=http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1470448/20030310/clash.jhtml | accessdate=2007-12-20}}</ref> The Damned built a reputation as "punk's party boys".<ref>Taylor (2004), p. 80.</ref> This London scene's first [[fanzine]] appeared a week later. Its title, ''[[Sniffin' Glue]]'', derived from a Ramones song. Its subtitle affirmed the connection with what was happening in New York: "+ Other Rock 'n' Roll Habits for Punks!"<ref>Laing (1985), p. 13; [http://www.towerblock.co.uk/this%20week%20in%201976%20july.htm "This Week in 1976"], towerblock.co.uk. Retrieved on March 4, 2008.</ref> |
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::For some reason there is a link to a Wikipedia scraping of the old chart now in the article. --[[User:RucasHost|RucasHost]] ([[User talk:RucasHost|talk]]) 19:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC) |
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Another Sex Pistols gig in Manchester on July 20, with the Buzzcocks debuting in support, gave further impetus to the scene there.<ref>Cummins, Kevin, "Closer to the Birth of a Music Legend", ''The Observer'', August 8, 2007, p. 12.</ref> In August, the self-described "First European Punk Rock Festival" was held in Mont de Marsan in the southwest of France. [[Eddie and the Hot Rods]], a London pub rock group, headlined, while the Sex Pistols were excluded for "going too far" and The Clash backed out in solidarity. The only band from the new punk movement to appear was The Damned.<ref>Savage (1992), p. 216.</ref> |
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== world communism restricted by socialist states themselves? == |
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Over the next several months, many new punk rock bands formed, often directly inspired by the Pistols.<ref>See, e.g., Marcus (1989), pp. 37, 67.</ref> In London, women were at the center of the scene—among the initial wave of bands were the female-fronted [[Siouxsie & the Banshees]] and [[X-Ray Spex]] and the all-female [[The Slits]]. [[The Adverts]] had a female bassist. Other groups included [[Subway Sect]], [[Eater]], [[UK Subs|The Subversives]], the aptly named [[London (band)|London]], and [[Chelsea (band)|Chelsea]], which soon spun off [[Generation X (band)|Generation X]]. Farther afield, [[Sham 69]] began practicing in the southeastern town of [[Hersham]]. In [[Durham]], there was [[Penetration (band)|Penetration]], with lead singer [[Pauline Murray]]. On September 20–21, the [[100 Club Punk Festival]] in London featured the four primary British groups (London's big three and the Buzzcocks), as well as Paris's female-fronted [[Stinky Toys]], arguably the first punk rock band from a non-[[Anglophone]] country. Siouxsie & the Banshees and Subway Sect debuted on the festival's first night; that same evening, Eater debuted in Manchester.<ref>{{cite web | title="Eater" | publisher= Detour Records| url=http://www.detour-records.co.uk/EATER.htm | accessdate=2007-12-29}}</ref> |
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I'm not the biggest fan of communism in the world, but could someone explain to me why, if the USSR and Maoist China, who bordered each other, both were aiming for the goal of world communism, they didn't merge into one 'state' anyway? Surely this could've eradicated and absorbed Mongolia as well? This may be a terribily basic question but what's the answer? |
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Some new bands, such as London's [[Alternative TV]] and Edinburgh's [[Rezillos]], identified with the scene even as they pursued more experimental music. Others of a comparatively traditional rock 'n' roll bent were also swept up by the movement: [[The Vibrators]], formed as a pub rock–style act in February 1976, soon adopted a punk look and sound.<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 221, 247.</ref> A few even longer-active bands including [[Surrey]] neo-mods [[The Jam]] and pub rockers The Stranglers and [[Cock Sparrer]] also became associated with the punk rock scene. Alongside the musical roots shared with their American counterparts and the calculated confrontationalism of the early Who, journalist Clinton Heylin describes how the British punks also reflected the influence of the "[[glam rock|glam]] bands who gave noise back to teenagers in the early Seventies—[[T.Rex (band)|T.Rex]], [[Slade]] and [[Roxy Music]]".<ref>Heylin (1993), p. xii.</ref> One of the groups openly acknowledging that influence were [[The Undertones]], from Derry in Northern Ireland.<ref name="trouser5">{{cite web|title=Undertones|author=Robbins, Ira|work=Trouser Press|url=http://trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=undertones|accessdate=2007-10-23}} {{cite web|title=Alive and Kicking|author=Reid, Pat|publisher=Undertones.net|work=Rhythm Magazine|month=May | year=2001|url=http://theundertones.net/r_200103.htm|accessdate=2007-10-23}}</ref> Another punk band formed to the south, Dublin's [[The Radiators From Space]]. |
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:Long story short, they battled over ideological orthodoxy, and this prevented that sort of co-operation. The rulers of the USSR and the PRC were propelled into power in the main by different class forces (the "proletariat" and the "peasantry", respectively). Besides that, there is the question of which stage of development each country was in according to Marxist theory. Both states aimed at building ''socialism'', while communism would come later. —[[User:Sesel|Sesel]] 23:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC) |
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::Okay, but is this the case with other bordering areas like North Korea and Vietnam as well? |
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:::Yes. Each country had ideological and political differences. —[[User:Sesel|Sesel]] 23:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC) |
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::Both countries were run by despots who had no intention of cooperation, bastardized Marxism and betrayed it. Stalin's theory of "socialism in one country" which Mao more or less accepted and pursued, invalidated the original idea of "world revolution". The Soviet Union and PRC were not communist, Marxist, or socialist. ([[User:Demigod Ron|Demigod Ron]] ([[User talk:Demigod Ron|talk]]) 03:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)) |
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== Geographic connectedness == |
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[[Image:AnarchyInTheUKPoster.jpg|thumb|right|The [[Sex Pistols]]' "[[Anarchy in the U.K.]]" poster—a ripped and safety-pinned [[Union Flag]]<ref>Savage (1992), p. 253.</ref>]] |
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Did you notice that with the exception of Cuba, you can travel by land between all the current Communist states without travelling over the territory of another state (from [[Laos]] through [[Vietnam]] through [[People's Republic of China|China]] through [[North Korea]]) ? I bet the same is also true before the Soviet collapse. [[User:24.113.177.5|24.113.177.5]] 00:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC) |
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In October, The Damned became the first UK punk rock band to release a single, the romance-themed "[[New Rose]]".<ref>Griffin, Jeff, "[http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/johnpeel/artists/t/thedamned/ The Damned]", BBC.co.uk. Retrieved on November 19, 2006.</ref> The Sex Pistols followed the next month with "[[Anarchy in the U.K.]]"—with its debut single the band succeeded in its goal of becoming a "national scandal".<ref>{{cite web| title=Anarchy in the U.K. | work= Rolling Stone| url=http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/6595898/anarchy_in_the_uk| date=[[2004-12-09]]| accessdate= 2007-10-22}}</ref> [[Jamie Reid]]'s "anarchy flag" poster and his other design work for the Pistols helped establish a distinctive [[Punk visual art|punk visual aesthetic]].<ref>Pardo (2004), p. 245.</ref> On December 1, an incident took place that sealed punk rock's notorious reputation: On ''Thames Today'', an early evening London TV show, Sex Pistols guitarist Steve Jones was goaded into a verbal altercation by the host, [[Bill Grundy]]. Jones called Grundy a "dirty fucker" on live television, triggering a media controversy.<ref>Lydon (1995), p. 127; Savage (1992), pp. 257–260; Barkham, Patrick, [http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1427563,00.html "Ex-Sex Pistol Wants No Future for Swearing"], ''The Guardian'' (UK), March 1, 2005. Retrieved on December 17, 2006.</ref> Two days later, the Pistols, The Clash, The Damned, and The Heartbreakers set out on the Anarchy Tour, a series of gigs throughout the UK. Many of the shows were cancelled by venue owners in response to the media outrage following the Grundy confrontation.<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 267–275; Lydon (1995), pp. 139–140.</ref> |
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:This might be worth noting in the article. the circumstance of geographic proximity is due to the fact that the USSR expanded outward and those areas that it took over or influenced were often in contact with the USSR via direct land border. Any dissent to a section on "geographic clustering" would be appreciated. I can't think of any reason why it's not worth mentioning.[[User:Tealwisp|Llama]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]]) 20:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC) |
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==Second wave== |
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By 1977, a second wave of the punk rock movement was breaking in the three countries where it had emerged, as well as in many other places. Bands from the same scenes often sounded very different from each other, reflecting the eclectic state of punk music during the era.<ref name="R211">Reynolds (2005), p. 211.</ref> While punk rock remained largely an underground phenomenon in North America, Australia, and the new spots where it was emerging, in the UK it briefly became a major sensation.<ref>[http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:204~T00 "Punk Rock"], [[Allmusic]]. Retrieved on January 7, 2007.</ref> |
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== Biased view concerning opening paragraphs == |
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===North America=== |
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The [[California punk scene]] was in full swing by early 1977. In Los Angeles, there were [[The Zeros (US band)|The Zeros]], [[The Germs]], [[The Weirdos]], [[X (U.S. band)|X]], [[The Dickies]], [[The Bags]], and the relocated Tupperwares, now dubbed [[The Screamers]].<ref>Spitz and Mullen (2001), passim.</ref> San Francisco's second wave included [[The Avengers (band)|The Avengers]], [[Negative Trend]], [[The Mutants (San Francisco)|The Mutants]], and [[The Sleepers (band)|The Sleepers]].<ref>Stark (2006), passim.</ref> [[The Dils]], from [[Carlsbad, California|Carlsbad]], moved between the two major cities.<ref>Unterberger (1999), p. 398. For examples of early California punk recordings, see [http://www.breakmyface.com/bands/dangerhouse1.html Dangerhouse Records—Part 1] BreakMyFace.com.</ref> The [[Wipers]] formed in Portland, Oregon. In Seattle, there was [[The Lewd]].<ref name="KE">Keithley (2004), pp. 31–32.</ref> Often sharing gigs with the Seattle punks were bands from across the Canadian border. A major scene developed in Vancouver, spearheaded by the [[Furies (band)|Furies]] and Victoria's all-female [[Dee Dee and the Dishrags]].<ref name="KE"/> [[The Skulls (Canadian band)|The Skulls]] spun off into [[D.O.A. (band)|D.O.A.]] and [[Subhumans (Canadian band)|The Subhumans]]. The K-Tels (later known as the [[Young Canadians]]) and [[Pointed Sticks]] were among the area's other leading punk acts.<ref>Keithley (2004), pp. 24, 35, 29–43, 45 et seq.</ref> |
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As I was reading this article, the phrasing of certain sentences within certian paragraphs struck me as very anti-communist, and straying away from pure facts. I've highlighted portions within the paragraphs where, after reading this, I've felt that revisions should be considered. |
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In eastern Canada, the Toronto protopunk band [[Dishes (band)|Dishes]] had laid the groundwork for another sizable scene,<ref>Miller, Earl. [http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-17544041_ITM "File Under Anarchy: A Brief History of Punk Rock's 30-Year Relationship with Toronto's Art Press"]. ''International Contemporary Art'', December 22, 2005. Retrieved on November 25, 2007</ref> and a September 1976 concert by the touring Ramones had catalyzed the movement. Early Ontario punk bands included [[The Diodes]], [[The Viletones]], [[The Battered Wives]], [[The Demics]], [[Forgotten Rebels]], [[Teenage Head (band)|Teenage Head]], [[The Poles (band)|The Poles]], and [[The Ugly (band)|The Ugly]]. Along with the Dishrags, Toronto's [[The Curse (band)|The Curse]] and [[B Girls (band)|B Girls]] were North America's first all-female punk acts.<ref>Worth, Liz. [http://www.exclaim.ca/articles/research.aspx?csid1=111 "A Canadian Punk Revival"]. ''Exclaim'', June 2007. Retrieved on November 27, 2007; Keithley (2004), pp. 40–41, 87, 89.</ref> In July 1977, the Viletones, Diodes, and Teenage Head headed down to New York City to play a four-day showcase at CBGB. Punk rock was already beginning to give way there to the anarchic sound of what became known as [[No Wave]], although several original punk bands continued to perform. ''[[Leave Home]]'', the Ramones' second album, had come out in January. September saw Richard Hell and The Voidoids' first full-length, ''[[Blank Generation (album)|Blank Generation]]''.<ref>Smith, Sid. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/release/fv63/ "Richard Hell and The Voidoids: ''Blank Generation''"], BBC, April 24, 2007. Retrieved on December 8, 2007.</ref> The Heartbreakers' debut, ''[[L.A.M.F.]]'', and the Dead Boys', ''[[Young, Loud and Snotty]]'', appeared in October; the Ramones' third, ''[[Rocket to Russia]]'', in November. [[The Cramps]], whose core members were from Sacramento by way of Akron, had debuted at CBGB in November 1976, opening for the Dead Boys. They were soon playing regularly at Max's Kansas City.<ref>Porter (2007), pp. 48–49; Nobahkt (2004), pp. 77–78.</ref> The [[The Misfits|Misfits]] formed in nearby New Jersey; by 1978, they had developed a style known as [[horror punk]]. |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">The primary features of a Communist state are a one-party dictatorship, totalitarian control of the economy and society, '''repression of civil liberties''', '''centralized economic planning resulting in enormous economic failures, including shortages of vital products, sometimes to the extent of famine''',[1] militarism, and '''omnipresent propaganda to cover up the systematic failures of the government. Genocide is a common occurrence in Communist states''' |
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The Ohio protopunk bands were joined by Cleveland's [[The Pagans]],<ref>Adams (2002), pp. 377–380.</ref> Akron's [[Bizarros]] and [[Rubber City Rebels]], and Kent's [[Human Switchboard]]. Bloomington, Indiana, had [[MX-80 Sound]] and Detroit had [[The Sillies]]. [[The Feederz]] formed in Arizona. Atlanta had [[The Fans (band)|The Fans]]. In North Carolina, there was Chapel Hill's [[H-Bombs]] and Raleigh's [[Th' Cigaretz]].<ref name="AC">Aaron, Charles, [http://www.spin.com/features/magazine/2007/09/0710_spiritof77/ "The Spirit of '77"], ''Spin'', September 20, 2007. Retrieved on November 27, 2007.</ref> The Chicago scene began not with a band but with a group of DJs transforming a gay bar, La Mere Vipere, into what became known as America's first punk dance club. [[Tutu and the Pirates]] and [[Silver Abuse]] were among the city's first punk bands.<ref>Raymer, Miles, [http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/sharpdarts/071122/ "Chicago Punk, Vol. 1"], ''Chicago Reader'', November 22, 2007; Austen, Jake, [http://www.timeout.com/chicago/articles/music/24456/savage-operation "Savage Operation"], ''Time Out Chicago'', November 22, 2007. Both retrieved December 18, 2007.</ref> In Boston, the scene at the Rat was joined by the [[Nervous Eaters]], [[Thrills (Boston band)|Thrills]], and [[Human Sexual Response]].<ref name="AC"/> In Washington, D.C., the [[Controls (band)|Controls]] played their first gig in spring 1977, but the city's second wave really broke the following year with acts such as [[Urban Verbs]], [[Half Japanese]], [[D'Chumps]], [[Rudements]], and [[Shirkers]].<ref>Andersen and Jenkins (2001), pp. 11–15, 23–26, 32, 35, 39, 41, 49, 59, 60, 68, 84, 91, 93 et seq.</ref> By early 1978, the D.C. jazz-fusion group Mind Power had transformed into [[Bad Brains]], one of the first bands to be identified with [[hardcore punk]].<ref name="AC"/><ref>Simmons, Todd, [http://www.thevillager.com/villager_181/thewednesdaythemusic.html "The Wednesday the Music Died"], ''The Villager'', October 18–24, 2006. Retrieved on November 27, 2007; Wells (2004), p. 15.</ref> |
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In Communist theory, after the victory of the Communists, the state "withers away"[14]. According to orthodox Marxist theoreticians, the term "Communist State" is a contradiction.[citation needed] |
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===Australia=== |
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In February 1977, EMI released The Saints' debut album, ''[[(I'm) Stranded]]'', which the band recorded in two days.<ref>McFaarlane, p. 547.</ref> The Saints had relocated to Sydney; in April, they and Radio Birdman united for a major gig at [[Paddington, New South Wales#Paddington Town Hall|Paddington Town Hall]].<ref>Cameron, Keith. [http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2129910,00.html "Come the Revolution"]. ''Guardian'', July 20, 2007. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> [[Last Words]] had also formed in the city. The following month, The Saints relocated again, to Great Britain. In June, Radio Birdman released the album ''[[Radios Appear]]'' on its own Trafalgar label.<ref name="M507"/> |
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In multi-party liberal democracies, the system of government (executive, legislative and judicial) operates independently of any political party, with each party competing for a right to control the system of government for a specific tenure. In Communist states, however, state institutions and party institutions depend on each other to function effectively. |
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[[The Victims (Perth band)|The Victims]] became a short-lived leader of the Perth scene, self-releasing the classic "[[Television Addict]]". They were joined by [[The Scientists]], [[Kim Salmon]]'s successor band to the Cheap Nasties. Among the other bands constituting Australia's second wave were the [[Hellcats]], [[Johnny Dole & The Scabs]] and [[Psychosurgeons]] (later known as the Lipstick Killers) in Sydney;<ref>Gardner, Steve. [http://www.divinerites.com/nk_radio.htm "Radio Birdman"]. ''Noise for Heroes'', summer 1990. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> [[The Leftovers (Australian band)|The Leftovers]], [[The Survivors (Australian band)|The Survivors]], and [[Razar (band)|Razar]] in Brisbane;<ref>Nichols (2003), pp. 44, 54.</ref> and [[La Femme (band)|La Femme]], [[The Negatives]], and [[The Babeez]] (later known as The News) in [[Melbourne]].<ref>Strahan, Lucinda. [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/02/1030953434428.html "The Star Who Nicked Australia's Punk Legacy"]. ''The Age'', September 3, 2002. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> Melbourne's [[art rock]]–influenced [[The Birthday Party (band)|Boys Next Door]] featured singer [[Nick Cave]], who would become one of the world's most celebrated [[post-punk]] artists. |
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What separates Communist states from other one-party systems is the fact that ruling authorities in '''a Communist state claim to be guided by Marxist-Leninist or Maoist ideology'''. For Marxist-Leninists, '''the state and the Communist Party claim to act in accordance with the wishes of the industrial working class'''; for Maoists, '''the state and party claim to act in accordance to the peasantry'''. '''Both systems claim to have implemented a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat, and both claim to be moving towards the gradual abolition of the state and the implementation of communism. These claims have been strongly disputed by opponents of the historical Communist states, including communists who do not subscribe to Marxism-Leninism and Maoism or who regard these states as bastardizations of the ideology'''.</div> |
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===United Kingdom=== |
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The Pistols' live TV skirmish with Bill Grundy was the signal moment in British punk's transformation into a major media phenomenon, even as some stores refused to stock the records and radio airplay was hard to come by.<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 260, 263–267, 277–279; Laing (1985), pp. 35, 37, 38.</ref> Press coverage of punk misbehavior grew intense: On January 4, 1977, the ''[[Evening News (London)|Evening News]]'' of London ran a front-page story on how the Sex Pistols "vomited and spat their way to an Amsterdam flight".<ref>Savage (1992), p. 286.</ref> In February 1977, the first album by a British punk band appeared: ''[[Damned Damned Damned]]'' reached number thirty-six on the UK chart. The EP ''[[Spiral Scratch (EP)|Spiral Scratch]]'', self-released by Manchester's Buzzcocks, was a benchmark for both the DIY ethic and regionalism in the country's punk movement.<ref>Savage (1992), pp. 296–298; Reynolds (2005), pp. 26–27.</ref> The Clash's [[The Clash (album)|self-titled debut album]] came out two months later and rose to number twelve; the single "[[White Riot]]" entered the top forty. In May, the Sex Pistols achieved new heights of controversy (and number two on the singles chart) with "[[God Save the Queen (Sex Pistols song)|God Save the Queen]]". The band had recently acquired a new bassist, [[Sid Vicious]], who was seen as exemplifying the punk persona.<ref>Colegrave and Sullivan (2005), p. 225.</ref> |
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Scores of new punk groups formed around the United Kingdom. Though most survived only briefly, perhaps recording a small-label single or two, others set off new trends. [[Crass]], from [[Essex]], merged a vehement, straight-ahead punk rock style with a committed anarchist mission. Sham 69, London's [[Menace (punk band)|Menace]], and the [[Angelic Upstarts]] from [[South Shields]] in the Northeast combined a similarly stripped-down sound with populist lyrics, a style that became known as [[streetpunk]]. These expressly working-class bands contrasted with others in the second wave that presaged the [[post-punk]] phenomenon. Such groups expressed punk rock's energy and aggression, while expanding its musical range with a wider variety of tempos and often more complex instrumentation. London's [[Wire (band)|Wire]] took minimalism and brevity to an extreme. London's [[Tubeway Army]], [[Belfast]]'s [[Stiff Little Fingers]], and [[Dunfermline]], Scotland's [[The Skids]] infused punk rock with elements of [[Synthpop|synth]] and [[noise music]].<ref name="rip">Reynolds (2005), pp. xvii, xviii, xxiii</ref> Liverpool's first punk group, the theatrical [[Big in Japan]], didn't last long, but it spun off several well-known post-punk acts.<ref>Savage (1991), p. 298.</ref> |
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[[Image:Wirepinkflagcover.jpg|right|thumb|The stark cover design of [[Wire (band)|Wire]]'s debut LP, ''[[Pink Flag]]'', symbolized the evolution of punk style.<ref>Reynolds (2005), pp. 171–172; Buckley (2003), p. 1179.</ref>]] |
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Alongside thirteen original songs that would define classic punk rock, The Clash's debut had included a cover of the recent Jamaican [[reggae]] hit "[[Police and Thieves]]".<ref>Shuker (2002), p. 228; Wells (2004), p. 113; Myers (2006), p. 205; {{cite web | title="Reggae 1977: When The Two 7's Clash" | work=Punk77.co.uk | url=http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/reggae.htm | accessmonthday= December 03 | accessyear=2006}}</ref> Other first wave bands such as The Slits and new entrants to the scene like [[The Ruts]] and [[The Police]] interacted with the reggae and [[ska]] subcultures, incorporating their rhythms and production styles. The punk rock phenomenon helped spark a full-fledged ska revival movement known as [[2 Tone]], centered around bands such as [[The Specials]], [[The Beat (band)|The Beat]], [[Madness (band)|Madness]], and [[The Selecter]].<ref>Hebdige (1987), p. 107.</ref> |
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One portion, such as the ''"repression of civil liberties"'', seem incorrect to begin with. A communist state puts the focus on the people as a whole, with less focus on the individual, in a simplistic format - therefore, shouldn't ''individual'' replace ''civil''? Stating ''civil'' carries a heavy depiction of cruel and/or barbaric treatment. |
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June 1977 saw the release of two more charting punk records: The Vibrators' ''Pure Mania'' and the Sex Pistols' third single, "[[Pretty Vacant]]", which reached number six. In July, The Saints had a top-forty hit with "[[This Perfect Day]]". Recently arrived from Australia, the band was now considered insufficiently "cool" to qualify as punk by much of the British media, though they had been playing a similar brand of music for years.<ref>Wells (2004), p. 114.</ref> In August, The Adverts entered the top twenty with "Gary Gilmore's Eyes". The following month, the Pistols hit number eight with "[[Holidays in the Sun]]", while Generation X and The Clash reached the top forty with, respectively, "Your Generation" and "[[Complete Control]]".<ref>Savage, pp. 556, 565–570.</ref> In October, the Sex Pistols released their first and only "official" album, ''[[Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols]]''. Inspiring yet another round of controversy, it topped the British charts. In December, one of the first books about punk rock was published: ''The Boy Looked at Johnny'', by [[Julie Burchill]] and [[Tony Parsons]].<ref>The title echoes a lyric from the title track of Patti Smith's 1975 album ''Horses''</ref> Declaring the punk rock movement to be already over, it was subtitled ''The Obituary of Rock and Roll''. In January 1978, the Sex Pistols broke up while on American tour. |
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Another portion involves the last paragraph highlighted, in the portion talking about "''Both systems claim to have..."'' Once again, this seems to be using what has happened in past and current forms of communist societies as truth in what the ideology of a communist state is. |
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===Rest of the world=== |
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Meanwhile, punk rock scenes were emerging around the globe. In France, ''les punks'', a Parisian subculture of Lou Reed fans, had already been around for years.<ref>Sabin (1999), p. 12.</ref> Following the lead set by [[Stinky Toys]], [[Métal Urbain]] played its first concert in December 1976. The new punk band's brief set included a cover of the Stooges' "No Fun", also a staple of the Sex Pistols' live show.<ref>Coca Cola, Andy. [http://metalurbain.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=33 "Complete 20th-Century Gigs Phase One"]. MetalUrbain.com, April 12, 2004. Retrieved on November 27, 2007.</ref> Métal Urbain's debut single, "Panik", released in May 1977, was perhaps the first non-English-language punk rock record;<ref>[http://metalurbain.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=33 "Vinyl Discography"]. ''MetalUrbain.com''</ref> with its "near [[motorik]] beat ... gruff guitar riffs, shouted lyrics, and the occasionally swooping synth line", it is also one of the earliest examples anywhere of a style that would become identified with post-punk.<ref>Crumsho, Michael. [http://www.dustedmagazine.com/reviews/1257 "Dusted Reviews: Metal Urbain—''Anarchy in Paris!''"]. ''Dusted Magazine'', February 5, 2004. Both retrieved on May 30, 2008.</ref> Other French punk acts such as [[Oberkampf (band)|Oberkampf]] and [[Starshooter]] soon formed.<ref>OM. [http://www.francomix.com/article-French_Punk_New_Wave_1975_1985-39.html "French Punk New Wave 1975–1985"] ''Francomix'', January 20, 2005. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> |
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Now, while some of these statements are true in an anecdotal form, that shouldn't stand for an encyclopedic view of what the ideology is, since '' '''anecdotal evidence is not evidence in itself.'' ''' These paragraphs are blurring the lines between facts about the idealogy of what a communist state is, and the historical events of individual communist states. |
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In West Germany, bands primarily inspired by British punk came together in the [[Neue Deutsche Welle]] (NDW) movement. [[Ätzttussis]], the [[Nina Hagen Band]], and [[S.Y.P.H.]] featured "raucous vocals and militant posturing", according to writer Rob Burns.<ref name="B3">Burns (1995), p. 313.</ref> Before turning in a mainstream direction in the 1980s, NDW attracted a politically conscious and diverse audience, including both participants of the left-wing alternative scene and [[White power skinhead|neo-Nazi skinheads]]. These opposing factions were mutually attracted by a view of punk rock as "'against the system' politically as well as musically".<ref name="B3"/> [[Andy McCoy|Briard]] jump-started Finnish punk with its 1977 single "I Really Hate Ya"/"I Want Ya Back";<ref>[http://www.btinternet.com/~thisispunkrock/ps/fin/1/briardback.htm Briard: "I Really Hate Ya"/"I Want Ya Back" 7" (1977)] "Punk Rock from Finland"/''This Is Punk Rock''.</ref> other early Finnish punk acts included [[Eppu Normaali]] and singer [[Pelle Miljoona]]. In Yugoslavia, punk rock acts emerged in Croatia ([[Paraf]]), Slovenia ([[Pankrti]]), and Serbia ([[Pekinška patka]]). In Japan, a punk movement developed around bands playing in an art/noise style such as [[Friction (band)|Friction]], and "psych punk" acts like [[Gaseneta]] and [[Kadotani Michio]].<ref>Palmer, Robert. [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE5D61130F930A1575AC0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print "The Pop Life"]. ''The New York Times'', September 23, 1987; [http://noise.as/jpsyc "Psychedelia in Japan"]. ''Noise: NZ/Japan''. Both retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> In New Zealand, Auckland's [[Scavengers (band)|Scavengers]] and [[Suburban Reptiles]] were followed by [[The Enemy (New Zealand band)|The Enemy]] of Dunedin.<ref name="AC"/> Punk rock scenes also grew in other countries such as Belgium ([[The Kids (Belgium)|The Kids]], [[Chainsaw (rock band)|Chainsaw]]),<ref>Killings, Todd. [http://www.victimoftime.com/articles/kids-headline-chaos-tejas-fest/ "The Kids Headline Chaos In Tejas Fest"]. ''Victim of Time'', May 16, 2007. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> the Netherlands ([[The Suzannes]], [[The Ex (band)|The Ex]]),<ref>Savage (1992), p. 581; Nitwit, Tony. [http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/mrrissue05_11HollandSceneReport.pdf "Holland Scene Report"] (PDF). ''Maximum Rock'n'Roll''. Retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> Sweden ([[Ebba Grön]], [[KSMB]]),<ref>[http://www.music.com/person/ebba_gron/1/ "Ebba Grön"] Music.com; [http://www.music.com/group/ksmb/1/ "KSMB"] Music.com. Both retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> and Switzerland ([[Nasal Boys]], [[Kleenex (band)|Kleenex]]).<ref>Mumenthaler, Samuel [http://swissmusic.swissinfo.org/eng/swissmusic.html?siteSect=135&sid=1540228&cKey=1041252660000 "Swiss Pop & Rock Anthology from the Beginnings till 1985: WAVE (3)"], ''SwissMusic''; Debored, Guy. [http://www.trakmarx.com/2006_05/13_kleenex.htm "Kleenex"] ''TrakMarx'', October 2006. Both retrieved on November 27, 2007.</ref> |
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[[Special:Contributions/67.187.169.243|67.187.169.243]] ([[User talk:67.187.169.243|talk]]) 07:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC) |
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==Punk transforms== |
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By late 1978, the [[hardcore punk]] movement was emerging in [[southern California]]. A rivalry developed between adherents of the new sound and the older punk rock crowd. Hardcore, appealing to a younger, more suburban audience, was perceived by some as anti-intellectual, overly violent, and musically limited. In Los Angeles, the opposing factions were often described as "Hollywood punks" and "beach punks", referring to Hollywood's central position in the original L.A. punk rock scene and to hardcore's popularity in the shoreline communities of [[South Bay, Los Angeles|South Bay]] and [[Orange County, California|Orange County]].<ref>Blush (2001), p. 18; Reynolds (2006), p. 211; Spitz and Mullen (2001), pp. 217–232; Stark (2006), "Dissolution" (pp. 91–93); see also, [http://flipsidefanzine.com/PortalHome.html "Round-Table Discussion: Hollywood Vanguard vs. Beach Punks!"] (Flipsidezine.com article archive).</ref> |
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Sean "saint saturn" Willis |
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As hardcore became the dominant punk rock style, many bands of the older California punk rock movement split up, although X went on to mainstream success and [[The Go-Go's]], part of the Hollywood punk scene when they formed in 1978, adopted a pop sound and became major stars.<ref>Spitz and Mullen (2001), pp. 274–279.</ref> Across North America, many other first and second wave punk bands also dissolved, while younger musicians inspired by the movement explored new variations on punk. Some early punk bands transformed into hardcore acts. A few, most notably the Ramones, Richard Hell and The Voidoids, and Johnny Thunders and The Heartbreakers, continued to pursue the style they had helped create. Crossing the lines between "classic" punk, [[post-punk]], and hardcore, San Francisco's [[Flipper (band)|Flipper]] was founded in 1979 by former members of Negative Trend and The Sleepers.<ref>See also Reynolds (2005), pp. 208–211.</ref> They became "the reigning kings of American underground rock, for a few years".<ref>Dougan, John. [http://wm06.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:aifuxqe5ldje~T1 Flipper—Biography]. Allmusic. Retrieved on November 26, 2007.</ref> |
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Radio Birdman broke up in June 1978 while touring the UK,<ref name="M507"/> where the early unity between [[Bohemianism|bohemian]], middle-class punks (many with art school backgrounds) and [[working class|working-class]] punks had disintegrated.<ref>Reynolds (2005), pp. 1–2, 17; Laing (1985), p. 109; Savage (1991), p. 396.</ref> In contrast to North America, more of the bands from the original British punk movement remained active, sustaining extended careers even as their styles evolved and diverged. Meanwhile, the [[Oi!]] and [[anarcho-punk]] movements were emerging. Musically in the same aggressive vein as American hardcore, they addressed different constituencies with overlapping but distinct anti-establishment messages. As described by Dave Laing, "The model for self-proclaimed punk after 1978 derived from the Ramones via the eight-to-the-bar rhythms most characteristic of The Vibrators and Clash ... It became essential to sound one particular way to be recognized as a 'punk band' now."<ref>Laing (1985), p. 108.</ref> In February 1979, former Sex Pistols bassist Sid Vicious died of a heroin overdose in New York. If the Pistols' breakup the previous year had marked the end of the original UK punk scene and its promise of cultural transformation, for many the death of Vicious signified that it had been doomed from the start.<ref>Savage (1992), p. 530.</ref> |
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"Genocide is a common occurrence in Communist states." |
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By the turn of the decade, the punk rock movement had split deeply along cultural and musical lines, leaving a variety of derivative scenes and forms. On one side were [[New Wave (music)|New Wave]] and post-punk artists; some adopted more accessible musical styles and gained broad popularity, while some turned in more experimental, less commercial directions. On the other side, hardcore punk, Oi!, and anarcho-punk bands became closely linked with [[underground culture]]s and spun off an array of [[Genre#Subgenre|subgenres]].<ref>Reynolds (2005), p. xvii.</ref> Somewhere in between, [[pop punk]] groups created blends like that of the ideal record, as defined by [[Mekons]] cofounder Kevin Lycett: "a cross between [[ABBA|Abba]] and the Sex Pistols".<ref>Quoted in Wells (2004), p. 21.</ref> A range of other styles emerged, many of them [[Fusion (music)|fusions]] with long-established genres. Exemplifying the breadth of classic punk's legacy was The Clash album ''[[London Calling]]'', released in December 1979. Combining punk rock with reggae, ska, R&B, and rockabilly, it went on to be acclaimed as one of the best rock records ever.<ref>See, e.g., Spencer, Neil, and James Brown, [http://music.guardian.co.uk/rock/story/0,,1934098,00.html "Why the Clash Are Still Rock Titans"], ''The Observer'' (UK), October 29, 2006. Retrieved February 28, 2006.</ref> At the same time, as observed by Flipper singer Bruce Loose, the relatively restrictive hardcore scenes diminished the variety of music that could once be heard at many punk gigs.<ref name="R211"/> If early punk, like most rock scenes, was ultimately male-oriented, the hardcore and Oi! scenes were significantly more so, marked in part by the slam dancing and [[moshing]] with which they became identified.<ref>Namaste (2000), p. 87; Laing (1985), pp. 90–91.</ref> |
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This add, with many ref from 2 to 13, i'm not sure that all the source referenced cited this--[[Special:Contributions/87.6.222.51|87.6.222.51]] ([[User talk:87.6.222.51|talk]]) 18:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)sorry --[[User:Francomemoria|Francomemoria]] ([[User talk:Francomemoria|talk]]) 18:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC) |
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now i'm sure that not all source reported this--[[User:Francomemoria|Francomemoria]] ([[User talk:Francomemoria|talk]]) 13:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC) |
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===New Wave=== |
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:''For more details on this topic, see [[New Wave (music)]].'' |
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In 1976—first in London, then in the United States—"New Wave" was introduced as a complementary label for the formative scenes and groups also known as "punk"; the two terms were essentially interchangeable.<ref>Gendron (2002), pp. 269–274.</ref> Over time, "New Wave" acquired a distinct meaning: Bands such as Blondie and Talking Heads from the CBGB scene; [[The Cars]], who emerged from the Rat in Boston; The Go-Go's in Los Angeles; and The Police in London that were broadening their instrumental palette, incorporating dance-oriented rhythms, and working with more polished production were specifically designated "New Wave" and no longer called "punk". Dave Laing suggests that some punk-identified British acts pursued the New Wave label in order to avoid radio censorship and make themselves more palatable to concert bookers.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 37.</ref> |
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== Add section about the term "communist state" == |
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Bringing elements of punk rock music and fashion into more pop-oriented, less "dangerous" styles, New Wave artists became very popular on both sides of the Atlantic.<ref>Wojcik (1995), p. 22.</ref> New Wave became a catch-all term,<ref>Schild, Matt, [http://www.aversion.com/bands/interviews.cfm?f_id=292 "Stuck in the Future"], Aversion.com, July 11, 2005. Retrieved on January 21, 2007.</ref> encompassing disparate styles such as [[2 Tone]] ska, the [[mod revival]] based around [[The Jam]], the sophisticated pop-rock of [[Elvis Costello]] and [[XTC]], the [[New Romantic]] phenomenon typified by [[Ultravox]], [[synthpop]] groups like [[Human League]] and [[Depeche Mode]], and the sui generis subversions of Devo, who had gone "beyond punk before punk even properly existed".<ref>Reynolds (2005), p. 79.</ref> New Wave became a pop culture sensation with the debut of the cable television network [[MTV]] in 1981, which put many New Wave videos into regular rotation. However, the music was often derided at the time as being silly and disposable.<ref>[http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=19:T727 "New Wave"], Allmusic. Retrieved on January 17, 2007.</ref> |
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"Communist state" is a term denounced by every communist I know (including me), so I think we should add a section about the name referring to socialist states. It's simply because the countries listed are not really communist, and I don't know if any one has mentioned it, but "communist state" is a misnomer for "socialist state". <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tealwisp|Tealwisp]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tealwisp|contribs]]) 07:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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===Post-punk=== |
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:''For more details on this topic, see [[Post-punk]].'' |
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During 1976–77, in the midst of the original UK punk movement, bands emerged such as Manchester's [[Joy Division]], [[The Fall (band)|The Fall]], and [[Magazine (band)|Magazine]], Leeds' [[Gang of Four (band)|Gang of Four]], and London's [[The Raincoats]] that became central post-punk figures. Some bands classified as post-punk, such as [[Throbbing Gristle]] and [[Cabaret Voltaire (band)|Cabaret Voltaire]], had been active well before the punk scene coalesced;<ref>Reynolds (2005), p. xxi.</ref> others, such as The Slits and Siouxsie & The Banshees, transitioned from punk rock into post-punk. A few months after the Sex Pistols' breakup, [[John Lydon]] (no longer "Rotten") cofounded [[Public Image Ltd]]. Lora Logic, formerly of X-Ray Spex, founded [[Essential Logic]]. [[Killing Joke]] formed in 1979. These bands were often musically experimental, like certain New Wave acts; defining them as "post-punk" was a sound that tended to be less pop and more dark and abrasive—sometimes verging on the [[atonality|atonal]], as with Subway Sect and Wire—and an anti-establishment posture directly related to punk's. Post-punk reflected a range of [[art rock]] influences from [[Captain Beefheart]] to [[David Bowie]] and [[Roxy Music]] to [[Krautrock]] and, once again, the Velvet Underground.<ref name = "Reynolds p4"/> |
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[[Image:PIL - Metal Box original.jpg|thumb|left|[[Public Image Ltd]]'s ''[[Metal Box]]'' (1979) epitomized post-punk innovations in both music and design.<ref>Reynolds (2005), pp. 212–218; Miles, Scott, and Morgan (2005), p. 138.</ref>]] |
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Post-punk brought together a new fraternity of musicians, journalists, managers, and entrepreneurs; the latter, notably [[Geoff Travis]] of [[Rough Trade Records|Rough Trade]] and [[Tony Wilson]] of [[Factory Records|Factory]], helped to develop the production and distribution infrastructure of the [[Indie (music)|indie music]] scene that blossomed in the mid-1980s.<ref>Reynolds (2005), pp. xxvii, xxix.</ref> Smoothing the edges of their style in the direction of New Wave, several post-punk bands such as [[New Order]] (descended from Joy Division), [[The Cure]], and [[U2]] crossed over to a mainstream U.S. audience. [[Bauhaus]] was one of the formative [[gothic rock]] bands. Others, like Gang of Four, The Raincoats and Throbbing Gristle, who had little more than cult followings at the time, are seen in retrospect as significant influences on modern popular culture.<ref>Reynolds (2005), p. xxix.</ref> |
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:There is already a passage about the issue in the name section. Also, note that your point is very much a matter of POV, overlooking what the term actually means in the view of those who (rightly or wrongly) coined it. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] [[User talk:Str1977|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC) |
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A number of U.S. artists were retrospectively defined as post-punk; Television's debut album ''[[Marquee Moon]]'', released in 1977, is frequently cited as a seminal album in the field.<ref>See, e.g., [http://www.rhapsody.com/television/more.html Television] overview by Mike McGuirk, [[Rhapsody (online music service)|Rhapsody]]; [http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:ycv1z8hajyv5 ''Marquee Moon''] review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine, Allmusic; [http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/t/television-marquee2003.shtml Television: ''Marquee Moon'' (remastered edition)] review by Hunter Felt, [[PopMatters]]. All retrieved January 15, 2007.</ref> The [[No Wave]] movement that developed in New York in the late 1970s, with artists like [[Lydia Lunch]], is often treated as the phenomenon's U.S. parallel.<ref>See, e.g., Buckley (2003), p. 13.</ref> The later work of Ohio protopunk pioneers Pere Ubu is also commonly described as post-punk.<ref>See. e.g., Reynolds (1999), p. 336; Savage (2002), p. 487.</ref> One of the most influential American post-punk bands was Boston's [[Mission of Burma]], who brought abrupt rhythmic shifts derived from hardcore into a highly experimental musical context.<ref>Harrington (2002), p. 388.</ref> In 1980, Australia's Boys Next Door moved to London and changed their name to [[The Birthday Party (band)|The Birthday Party]], which evolved into [[Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds]]. [[King Snake Roost]] and other Australian bands would further explore the possibilities of post-punk. Later [[art punk]] and [[alternative rock]] musicians found diverse inspiration among these predecessors, New Wave and post-punk alike. |
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== Definition of capitalist state == |
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===Hardcore=== |
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A distinctive style of punk, characterized by superfast, aggressive beats, screaming vocals, and often politically aware lyrics, began to emerge in 1978 among bands scattered around the United States. The first major scene of what came to be known as hardcore punk developed in southern California in 1978–79;<ref>Sabin (1999), p. 4.</ref> the movement soon spread around North America and internationally.<ref name=andersen/><ref name="hardcore"/><ref name="vandorston"/> According to author Steven Blush, "Hardcore comes from the bleak suburbs of America. Parents moved their kids out of the cities to these horrible suburbs to save them from the 'reality' of the cities and what they ended up with was this new breed of monster".<ref name="blush"/> |
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under the list of communist states, and elsewhere, the article states or implies that a state in which the communist party has become intertwined with the government is a communist state. |
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Among the earliest hardcore bands, regarded as having made the first recordings in the style, were southern California's [[Black Flag (band)|Black Flag]] and [[Middle Class (band)|Middle Class]].<ref name="hardcore">Blush (2001), p. 17; Coker, Matt, [http://www.ocweekly.com/features/music-feedback/suddenly-in-vogue/16269/ "Suddenly In Vogue: The Middle Class May Have Been the Most Influential Band You’ve Never Heard Of"], ''OC Weekly'', December 5, 2002. Retrieved on March 26, 2007.</ref><ref name="vandorston">Van Dorston, A.S., [http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm "A History of Punk"], fastnbulbous.com, January 1990. Retrieved on December 30, 2006.</ref> [[Bad Brains]]—all of whom were black, a rarity in punk of any era—launched the [[Washington, D.C. hardcore|D.C. scene]].<ref name=andersen>Andersen and Jenkins (2001).</ref> [[Austin, Texas]]'s [[Big Boys (band)|Big Boys]], San Francisco's [[Dead Kennedys]], and [[Vancouver]]'s [[D.O.A. (band)|D.O.A.]] were among the other initial hardcore groups. They were soon joined by bands such as the [[Minutemen (band)|Minutemen]], [[The Descendents]], [[Circle Jerks]], [[The Adolescents]], and [[TSOL]] in southern California; D.C.'s [[Teen Idles]], [[Minor Threat]], and [[State of Alert]]; and Austin's [[MDC (band)|MDC]] and [[The Dicks]]. By 1981, hardcore was the dominant punk rock style not only in California, but much of the rest of North America as well.<ref>Blush (2001), pp. 12–21.</ref> A [[New York hardcore]] scene grew, including the relocated Bad Brains, New Jersey's [[The Misfits|Misfits]] and [[Adrenalin O.D.]], and local acts such as the [[Nihilistics]], [[The Mob (New York band)|The Mob]], [[Reagan Youth]], and [[Agnostic Front]]. [[Beastie Boys]], who would become famous as a hip-hop group, debuted that year as a hardcore band. They were followed by [[The Cro-Mags]], [[Murphy's Law (band)|Murphy's Law]], and [[Leeway (band)|Leeway]].<ref>Andersen and Jenkins (2001), p. 89; Blush (2001), p. 173; {{cite web|author=Diamond, Mike|title="Beastie Boys Biography"|publisher=Sing365.com|url=http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Beastie-Boys-Biography/0B982363068317484825682C0009A5AE|accessdate=2008-01-04}}</ref> By 1983, [[Minneapolis hardcore|Minneapolis]]'s [[Hüsker Dü]] and Chicago's [[Naked Raygun]] were taking the hardcore sound in experimental and ultimately more melodic directions. Hardcore would constitute the American punk rock standard throughout the decade.<ref>Leblanc (1999), p. 59.</ref> |
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I think this may mislead people, as nations like the US and UK are capitalist states, but don't have capitalist parties (bu name, at least) |
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The lyrical content of hardcore songs, typified by Dead Kennedys' "[[Holiday in Cambodia]]", is often critical of commercial culture and middle-class values.<ref name="vandorston" /> [[Straight edge]] bands like Minor Threat, [[Boston hardcore|Boston]]'s [[SS Decontrol]], and [[Reno, Nevada]]'s [[7 Seconds]] rejected the self-destructive lifestyles of many of their peers, and built a movement based on positivity and abstinence from cigarettes, alcohol, and drugs.<ref>Lamacq, Steve, [http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/documentaries/060829_straightedge.shtml "x True Til Death x"], BBC Radio 1, 2003. Retrieved on January 14, 2007.</ref> In the early 1980s, bands from the American southwest and California such as [[JFA (band)|JFA]], [[Agent Orange (band)|Agent Orange]], and [[The Faction]] helped create a rhythmically distinctive style of hardcore known as [[skate punk]]. Skate punk innovators also pointed in other directions: Big Boys helped establish [[funkcore]], while [[Venice, California]]'s [[Suicidal Tendencies]] had a formative effect on the [[heavy metal music|heavy metal]]–influenced [[trash metal#Crossover thrash|crossover thrash]] style. Toward the end of the decade, crossover thrash spawned the [[metalcore]] fusion style and the superfast [[thrashcore]] subgenre developed in multiple locations. |
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Additionally, the article is by no means neutral and is extremely anti-communist. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tealwisp|Tealwisp]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tealwisp|contribs]]) 08:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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===Oi!=== |
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{{Details|Oi!}} |
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Following the lead of first-wave British punk bands [[Cock Sparrer]] and [[Sham 69]], in the late 1970s second-wave units like [[Cockney Rejects]], [[Angelic Upstarts]], [[The Exploited]], and [[The 4-Skins]] sought to realign punk rock with a working class, street-level following.<ref>Sabin (1999), p. 216 n. 17; Dalton, Stephen, "Revolution Rock", ''Vox'', June 1993.</ref> Their style was originally called ''real punk'' or [[streetpunk]]; [[Sounds (magazine)|''Sounds'']] journalist [[Garry Bushell]] is credited with labelling the genre ''Oi!'' in 1980. The name is partly derived from the Cockney Rejects' habit of shouting "Oi! Oi! Oi!" before each song, instead of the time-honored "1,2,3,4!"<ref>Robb (2006), p. 469.</ref> Oi! bands' lyrics sought to reflect the harsh realities of living in [[Margaret Thatcher]]'s Britain in the late 1970s and early 1980s.<ref name = "Robb p511">Robb (2006), p. 511.</ref> A subgroup of Oi! bands dubbed "[[punk pathetique]]"—including [[Splodgenessabounds]], [[Peter and the Test Tube Babies]], and [[Toy Dolls]]—had a more humorous and absurdist bent. |
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:"...the article states or implies that a state in which the communist party has become intertwined with the government is a communist state." |
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[[Image:StrengthThruOi.jpg|thumb|left|''Strength Thru Oi!'', with its notorious image of [[British Movement]] activist and felon [[Nicky Crane]]]] |
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The Oi! movement was fueled by a sense that many participants in the early punk rock scene were, in the words of [[The Business (band)|The Business]] guitarist Steve Kent, "trendy university people using long words, trying to be artistic ... and losing touch".<ref>Quoted in Robb (2006), pp. 469–470.</ref> The Oi! credo held that the music needed to remain unpretentious and accessible.<ref name="rip"/> According to Bushell, "Punk was meant to be of the voice of the [[the dole|dole]] queue, and in reality most of them were not. But Oi was the reality of the punk mythology. In the places where [these bands] came from, it was harder and more aggressive and it produced just as much quality music."<ref>Robb (2006), p. 470.</ref> |
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:Yes, it does. |
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Although most Oi! bands in the initial wave were apolitical or [[left wing]], many of them began to attract a [[white power skinhead]] following.<ref name="GB">Bushell, Gary. "[http://www.garry-bushell.co.uk/oi/index.asp Oi!—The Truth]". Uncensored Garry Bushell. Retrieved on May 11, 2007.</ref> Racist skinheads sometimes disrupted Oi! concerts by shouting fascist slogans and starting fights, but some Oi! bands were reluctant to endorse criticism of their fans from what they perceived as the "middle-class establishment".<ref name="tzvi">Fleischer, Tzvi. [http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2000/258/sounds.html "Sounds of Hate"]. Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC), August 2000. Retrieved on January 14, 2007.</ref> In the popular imagination, the movement thus became linked to the [[far right]].<ref>Robb (2006), pp. 469, 512.</ref> ''Strength Thru Oi!'', an album compiled by Bushell and released in May 1981, stirred controversy, especially when it was revealed that the belligerent figure on the cover was a [[Neo-Nazism|neo-Nazi]] jailed for racist violence (Bushell claimed ignorance).<ref name="GB"/> On July 3, a concert at Hamborough Tavern in [[Southall]] featuring The Business, The 4-Skins, and [[The Last Resort (band)|The Last Resort]] was firebombed by local Asian youths who believed that the event was a neo-Nazi gathering.<ref>Gimarc (1997), p. 175; Laing (1985), p. 112.</ref> Following the Southall riot, press coverage increasingly associated Oi! with the extreme right, and the movement soon began to lose momentum.<ref name = "Robb p511"/> |
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:"I think this may mislead people, as nations like the US and UK are capitalist states, but don't have capitalist parties (bu name, at least)" |
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===Anarcho-punk=== |
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{{Details|Anarcho-punk}} |
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[[Image:Crass3.jpg|thumb|right|[[Crass]] were the originators of anarcho-punk.<ref name="W35">Wells (2004), p. 35.</ref> Their all-black militaristic dress became a staple of the genre.]] |
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Anarcho-punk developed alongside the Oi! and American hardcore movements. With a primitive, stripped-down musical style and ranting, shouted vocals, British bands such as [[Crass]], [[Subhumans (U.K. band)|Subhumans]], [[Flux of Pink Indians]], [[Conflict (band)|Conflict]], [[Poison Girls]], and [[The Apostles]] attempted to transform the punk rock scene into a full-blown anarchist movement. As with straight edge, anarcho-punk is based around a set of principles, including prohibitions on wearing leather, and promoting a vegetarian or vegan diet.<ref name="W35"/> |
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:But they don't need to. The article makes a statement about communist states - there's no need for a mirroring statement about capitalist states (assuming that such entities, mirroing communist states, exist) to be true. We simply make no stament about capitalist states here, only about communist states. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] [[User talk:Str1977|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC) |
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The movement spun off several subgenres of a similar political bent. [[Discharge (band)|Discharge]], founded back in 1977, established [[D-beat]] in the early 1980s. Other groups in the movement, led by [[Amebix]] and [[Antisect]], developed the extreme style known as [[crust punk]]. Several of these bands rooted in anarcho-punk such as [[The Varukers]], Discharge, and Amebix, along with former Oi! groups such as The Exploited and bands from father afield like Birmingham's [[Charged GBH]], became the leading figures in the [[UK 82]] hardcore movement. The anarcho-punk scene also spawned bands such as [[Napalm Death]], [[Carcass (band)|Carcass]], and [[Extreme Noise Terror]] that in the mid-1980s defined the [[grindcore]] form, incorporating extremely fast tempos and [[death metal]]–style guitarwork.<ref>Purcell (2003), pp. 56–57.</ref> Led by Dead Kennedys, a U.S. anarcho-punk scene developed around such bands as Austin's [[MDC (band)|MDC]] and southern California's [[Another Destructive System]].<ref>[http://sosrecords.us/label/taxonomy/term/1 News Items]. SOS Records, March 12, 2007; [http://www.animamundi.org/links.html Links] Anima Mundi. Both retrieved on November 25, 2007.</ref> |
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::How come there is no article for [[Capitalist state]]? |
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===Pop punk=== |
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::[[User:Lapsed Pacifist|Lapsed Pacifist]] ([[User talk:Lapsed Pacifist|talk]]) 13:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC) |
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With their love of the [[Beach Boys]] and late 1960s [[bubblegum pop]], the Ramones paved the way to what became known as pop punk.<ref>Besssman (1993), p. 16; Marcus (1979), p. 114; Simpson (2003), p. 72; McNeil (1997), p. 206.</ref> In the late 1970s, UK bands such as [[Buzzcocks]] and [[The Undertones]] combined [[Pop music|pop]]-style tunes and lyrical themes with punk's speed and chaotic edge.<ref>Cooper, Ryan. [http://punkmusic.about.com/od/artistprofiles/p/buzzcocksfinal.htm "The Buzzcocks, Founders of Pop Punk"]. About.com. Retrieved on December 16, 2006.</ref> In the early 1980s, some of the leading bands in southern California's hardcore punk rock scene emphasized a more melodic approach than was typical of their peers. According to music journalist [[Ben Myers]], [[Bad Religion]] "layered their pissed off, politicized sound with the smoothest of harmonies"; [[Descendents (band)|Descendents]] "wrote almost surfy, Beach Boys–inspired songs about girls and food and being young(ish)".<ref>Myers (2006), p. 52.</ref> [[Epitaph Records]], founded by [[Brett Gurewitz]] of Bad Religion, was the base for many future pop punk bands, including [[NOFX]], with their [[third wave ska]]–influenced [[skate punk]] rhythms. Bands that fused punk with light-hearted pop melodies, such as [[The Queers]] and [[Screeching Weasel]], began appearing around the country, in turn influencing bands like [[Green Day]] and [[The Offspring]], who brought pop punk wide popularity and major record sales. Bands such as [[The Vandals]] and [[Guttermouth]] developed a style blending pop melodies with humorous and offensive lyrics. The mainstream pop punk of latter-day bands such as [[Blink-182]] is criticized by many punk rock devotees; in critic Christine Di Bella's words, "It's punk taken to its most accessible point, a point where it barely reflects its lineage at all, except in the three-chord song structures."<ref>Di Bella, Christine. [http://www.popmatters.com/music/concerts/b/blink-182-020611.shtml "Blink 182 + Green Day"]. PopMatters.com. June 11, 2002. Retrieved on February 4, 2007.</ref> |
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:::How could their be? Is there as state which is capatalist by its constitution? What makes a state capitalist? Is it a matter of politics (as in Communist states) or of economics? I think it is economics and therefore it is not part of the definition of a state by its constitution. [[User:Str1977|Str1977]] [[User talk:Str1977|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC) |
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===Other fusions and directions=== |
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From 1977 forward, punk rock crossed lines with many other popular music genres. Los Angeles punk rock bands laid the groundwork for a wide variety of styles: [[The Flesh Eaters (band)|The Flesh Eaters]] with [[deathrock]]; [[The Plugz]] with [[Chicano rock#Chicano punk|Chicano punk]]; and [[Gun Club]] with [[punk blues]]. [[The Meteors]], from [[South London]], and [[The Cramps]], who moved from New York to Los Angeles in 1980, were innovators in the [[psychobilly]] fusion style.<ref>Porter (2007), p. 86.</ref> Milwaukee's [[Violent Femmes]] jumpstarted the American [[folk punk]] scene, while [[The Pogues]] did the same on the other side of the Atlantic, influencing many [[Celtic punk]] bands. The Mekons, from [[Leeds]], combined their punk rock ethos with country music, greatly influencing the later [[alt-country]] movement. In the United States, varieties of [[cowpunk]] played by bands such as [[Nashville, Tennessee|Nashville]]'s [[Jason & the Scorchers]] and Arizona's [[Meat Puppets]] had a similar effect. |
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:::i know that in some constitutions econimics is part of constitution, or there are laws on that.--[[User:Francomemoria|Francomemoria]] ([[User talk:Francomemoria|talk]]) 12:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Other bands pointed punk rock toward future rock styles or its own foundations. New York's [[Suicide (band)|Suicide]], who had played with the New York Dolls at the Mercer Arts Center, L.A.'s [[The Screamers]] and [[Nervous Gender]], and Germany's [[Deutsch-Amerikanische Freundschaft|DAF]] were pioneers of [[synthpunk]]. Chicago's [[Big Black]] was a major influence on [[noise rock]], [[math rock]], and [[industrial rock]]. [[Garage punk]] bands from all over—such as [[Medway]]'s [[Thee Mighty Caesars]], Chicago's [[Dwarves (band)|Dwarves]], and [[Adelaide]]'s [[Exploding White Mice]]—pursued a version of punk rock that was close to its roots in 1960s garage rock. Seattle's [[Mudhoney (band)|Mudhoney]], one of the central bands in the development of [[grunge music|grunge]], has been described as "garage punk".<ref>Simpson (2003), p. 42.</ref> |
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:::Because there are no countries which constitutionally provide for their government to be led by a capitalist party. There is no unified Capitalist International. Capitalism, as an ideological movement, is far less organized than Communism, because by its nature, all societies tend towards capitalism, and governments have to exert significant efforts to make societies less capitalist. A capitalist state is the natural state of affairs, yet is also something of a contradiction in terms, as state action is almost always interfering with capitalism. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 01:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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==Legacy and later developments== |
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===Alternative rock=== |
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{{main|Alternative rock}} |
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The underground punk rock movement inspired countless bands that either evolved from a punk rock sound or brought its outsider spirit to very different kinds of music. The original punk explosion also had a long-term effect on the music industry, spurring the growth of the independent sector.<ref>Laing (1985), pp. 118, 128.</ref> During the early 1980s, British bands like New Order and The Cure that straddled the lines of post-punk and New Wave developed both new musical styles and a distinctive industrial niche. Though commercially successful over an extended period, they maintained an underground-style, [[subculture|subcultural]] identity.<ref>Goodlad and Bibby (2007), p. 16.</ref> In the United States, bands such as Minneapolis's [[Hüsker Dü]] and their protégés [[The Replacements]] bridged the gap between punk rock genres like hardcore and the more expansive sound of what was called "[[college rock]]" at the time.<ref>Azerrad (2001), passim; for relationship of Hüsker Dü and The Replacements, see pp. 205–206.</ref> |
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== Criticisms section (regarding contentious material)== |
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A 1985 ''[[Rolling Stone]]'' feature on the Minneapolis scene and innovative California hardcore acts such as Black Flag and Minutemen declared, "Primal punk is passé. The best of the American punk rockers have moved on. They have learned how to play their instruments. They have discovered melody, guitar solos and lyrics that are more than shouted political slogans. Some of them have even discovered the [[Grateful Dead]]."<ref>[http://www.thirdav.com/zinestuff/rs452.html Goldberg, Michael, "Punk Lives"], ''Rolling Stone'', July 18 – August 1, 1985.</ref> By the end of the 1980s, these bands, who had largely eclipsed their punk rock forebears in popularity, were classified broadly as [[alternative rock]]. Alternative rock encompasses a diverse set of styles—including [[gothic rock]] and [[grunge music|grunge]], among others—unified by their debt to punk rock and their origins outside of the musical mainstream.<ref name="Erlewine">Erlewine, Stephen Thomas. "[http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=19:T578 American Alternative Rock / Post-Punk]". Allmusic. Retrieved on December 12, 2006</ref> |
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I have moved it into the criticism section because I felt that it would appear too factual in an opening paragraph. In the criticism section, it is equal on both sides. Also, the criticism section was needed anyway, so it can be expanded. Thank you for coming with an agreement --[[User:Rockstone35|Rockstone35]] ([[User talk:Rockstone35|talk]]) 00:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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[[Image:Sonic1991b.jpg|thumb|right|[[Sonic Youth]]'s [[Kim Gordon]] in 1991, walking on her bass guitar]] |
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As American alternative bands like [[Sonic Youth]], who had grown out of the No Wave scene, and Boston's [[Pixies]] started to gain larger audiences, major labels sought to capitalize on the underground market that had been sustained by hardcore punk for years.<ref>Friedlander and Miller (2006), pp. 256, 278.</ref> In 1991, [[Nirvana (band)|Nirvana]] emerged from Washington State's grunge scene, achieving huge commercial success with its second album, ''[[Nevermind]]''. The band's members cited punk rock as a key influence on their style.<ref>[http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/biography_story/691:1872/1/Kurt_Donald_Cobain.htm "Kurt Donald Cobain"], Biography Channel. Retrieved on November 19, 2006.</ref> "Punk is musical freedom", wrote singer [[Kurt Cobain]]. "It’s saying, doing, and playing what you want."<ref>Quoted in St. Thomas (2004), p. 94.</ref> The widespread popularity of Nirvana and other punk-influenced bands such as [[Pearl Jam]] and [[Red Hot Chili Peppers]] fueled the alternative rock boom of the early and mid-1990s.<ref name="Erlewine"/> |
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:I disagree with this movement, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, [[WP:NPOV]] discourages "criticism" sections; criticisms should be handled within the article generally. Secondly, as this article is about both the theory '''and''' practice of Communist states, a summary of ''all'' important information about existing Communist states ought to be presented in the introduction, and expanded upon further down in the article. The totalitarian nature and economic and moral failings of Communist states are important aspects of the history and practice of Communism, and should not be minimized by removal from the lead. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 01:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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===Emo=== |
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:''For more details on this topic, see [[Emo]].'' |
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I am recommending we keep the section the way it is until we can come to a complete agreement. While the evils of the communist state needs to be addressed, perhaps it can be worded so it is not so obvious that it is biased against communism. If the criticisms section is handled within the article generally, the article might as well be named criticisms of communist state's. We could add a page and put a large amount of criticisms there, and link to it from this one. That way, the article doesn't swarm with bias against communist states. We can also merge this article with communism, and allow the criticisms already in place to be part of it. While we both must reach an agreement, other people's opinions might be taken into consideration. --[[User:Rockstone35|Rockstone35]] ([[User talk:Rockstone35|talk]]) 01:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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In its original, mid-1980s incarnation, emo was a less musically restrictive style of punk developed by participants in the Washington, D.C. area hardcore scene. It was originally referred to as "emocore", an abbreviation of "emotive hardcore". Notable early emo bands included [[Rites of Spring]], [[Embrace (U.S. band)|Embrace]], [[The Hated]], and [[One Last Wish]]. The term derived from the tendency of some of these bands' members to become strongly emotional during performances. [[Fugazi]], formed out of the dissolution of Embrace, inspired a second, much broader based wave of emo bands beginning in the mid-1990s. Groups like San Diego's [[Antioch Arrow]] generated new, more intense subgenres like [[screamo]], while others developed a more melodic style closer to indie rock. Bands such as Seattle's [[Sunny Day Real Estate]] and [[Mesa, Arizona]]'s [[Jimmy Eat World]] broke out of the underground, attracting national attention. By the turn of the century, emo had arguably surpassed hardcore, its parent genre, as the roots-level standard for U.S. punk, though some music fans claim that typical latter-day emo bands like [[Panic! At The Disco]] and [[Fall Out Boy]] don't even qualify as punk at all.<ref>See, e.g., [http://www.pastepunk.com/columns.php?v=157 "You Are So Not Scene (1): The Fall of Emo as We (Don't) Know It"] pastepunk.com. Retrieved on January 16, 2007.</ref> |
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:This article and [[Communism]] are too big to be merged. |
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===Queercore and riot grrrl=== |
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[[Image:Carrie Brownstein.jpg|thumb|left|[[Carrie Brownstein]], performing with [[Sleater-Kinney]] in 2005]] |
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:''For more details on these topics, see [[Queercore]] and [[Riot Grrrl]].'' |
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In the 1990s, the queercore movement developed around a number of punk bands with [[Gay (term)|gay]] and [[lesbian]] members such as [[Fifth Column (band)|Fifth Column]], [[God Is My Co-Pilot (band)|God Is My Co-Pilot]], [[Pansy Division]], [[Team Dresch]], and [[Sister George]]. Inspired by openly gay punk musicians of an earlier generation, queercore embraces a variety of punk and other alternative music styles. Queercore lyrics often treat the themes of prejudice, [[sexual identity]], [[gender identity]], and individual rights. The movement has continued to expand in the twenty-first century, supported by festivals such as [[Queeruption]]. |
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:Describing facts is neutral. Stating that Communist states have all failed economies is factual - they all have. Stating that Communist states suppress civil liberties is factual - all Communist states suppress civil liberties. Saying that many Communist states have committed genocide is neutral - many have. These statements make Communist states look bad - that's because the facts are that the leaders of Communist states did many bad things. As quoted in [[WP:NPOV]]: |
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Contrary to popular believe emo is not a form of punk rock. |
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:{{cquote|You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary.}} |
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:The same applies to the greater crimes of the Communists. |
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:If you believe the way I've presented the facts is not neutral, please say so, with specific examples, and your suggestions for rewording them. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 01:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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==Punk revival== |
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Along with Nirvana, many of the leading alternative rock artists of the early 1990s acknowledged the influence of earlier punk rock acts. With Nirvana's success, the major record companies once again saw punk bands as potentially profitable.<ref>Zuel, Bernard (April 2, 2004), [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/01/1080544618404.html "Searching for Nirvana"], ''Sydney Morning Herald''. Retrieved on September 1, 2007.</ref> In 1993, California's [[Green Day]] and [[Bad Religion]] were both signed to major labels. The next year, Green Day released ''[[Dookie]],'' which became a huge hit, selling eight million albums in just over two years.<ref name="RIAAD">See, e.g., [http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=SEARCH Searchable Database—Gold and Platinum], RIAA. Retrieved on December 2, 2007.</ref> Bad Religion's ''[[Stranger Than Fiction (album)|Stranger Than Fiction]]'' was [[RIAA certification|certified gold]].<ref>Fucoco, Christina (November 1, 2000), [http://www.livedaily.com/news/2098.html "Punk Rock Politics Keep Trailing Bad Religion"], liveDaily. Retrieved on September 1, 2008.</ref> Other California punk bands on indie label [[Epitaph Records|Epitaph]], run by Bad Religion guitarist [[Brett Gurewitz]], also began garnering mainstream success. In 1994, Epitaph put out ''[[Let's Go (album)|Let's Go]]'' by [[Rancid (band)|Rancid]], ''[[Punk In Drublic]]'' by [[NOFX]], and ''[[Smash (album)|Smash]]'' by [[The Offspring]], each eventually certified gold or better. ''Smash'' went on to sell over eleven million copies, becoming the best-selling independent-label album of all time.<ref>[http://www.offspring.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Offspring.woa/wa/bio The Offspring: Band Bio] The Offspring.com. Retrieved on September 1, 2008.</ref> [[MTV]] and radio stations such as Los Angeles' [[KROQ-FM]] played a major role in these bands' crossover success, though NOFX refused to let MTV air its videos.<ref name=punkbroke>Gold, Jonathan. "The Year Punk Broke.” ''SPIN''. November 1994.</ref> Green Day and ''Dookie'''s enormous sales paved the way for a host of bankable North American pop punk bands in the following decade.<ref>D'Angelo, Joe, [http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1491001/20040915/green_day.jhtml "How Green Day's ''Dookie'' Fertilized A Punk-Rock Revival"], MTV.com, September 15, 2004. Retrieved on December 3, 2007.</ref> The Vans [[Warped Tour]] and the mall chain store [[Hot Topic]] brought punk even further into the U.S. mainstream. |
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Following the lead of Boston's [[The Mighty Mighty Bosstones|Mighty Mighty Bosstones]] and two California bands, [[Berkeley, California|Berkeley]]'s [[Operation Ivy (band)|Operation Ivy]] and [[Long Beach, California|Long Beach]]'s [[Sublime (band)|Sublime]], [[ska punk]] and ska-core became widely popular in the mid-1990s. The original [[2 Tone]] bands had emerged amid punk rock's second wave, but their music was much closer to its Jamaican roots—"ska at [[Gramophone record#Speeds|78 rpm]]".<ref>Hebdige (1987), p. 111.</ref> Ska punk bands in the [[third wave of ska]] created a true musical fusion with punk and hardcore. ''[[...And Out Come the Wolves]]'', the 1995 album by Rancid—which had evolved out of Operation Ivy—became the first record in this ska revival to be certified gold;<ref>''...And Out Come the Wolves'' was certified gold in January 1996. ''Let's Go'', Rancid's previous album, received its gold certification in July 2000.</ref> Sublime's [[Sublime (album)|self-titled 1996 album]] was certified platinum early in 1997.<ref name="RIAAD"/> |
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The article isn't neutral entirely. At the end of the Soviet union, Gorbachev's reforms ended most of these. Civil liberties, while I agree that it is true, is not technically right, as China has privacy and freedom of speech as a human right. But the government can censor anything not in it's interests. |
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By 1998, the punk revival had commercially stalled,<ref>Gross (2004), p. 677.</ref> but not for long. Pop punk band [[Blink-182]]'s 1999 release, ''[[Enema of the State]]'', reached the ''Billboard'' top ten and sold four million copies in less than a year.<ref name="RIAAD"/> New pop punk bands such as [[Sum 41]], [[Simple Plan]], [[Yellowcard]], and [[Good Charlotte]] achieved major sales in the first decade of the 2000s. In 2004, Green Day's ''[[American Idiot]]'' went to number one on both the U.S. and UK charts. Jimmy Eat World, which had taken emo in a radio-ready pop punk direction,<ref>Pierce, Carrie, [http://media.www.thebatt.com/media/storage/paper657/news/2004/11/24/Aggielife/Jimmy.Eat.World-814898.shtml "Jimmy Eat World: ''Futures''—Interscope Records"], ''The Battalion'', November 24, 2004. Retrieved on December 2, 2007.</ref> had top-ten albums in 2004 and 2007; in a similar style, Fall Out Boy hit number one with 2007's ''[[Infinity on High]]''. The revival was broad-based: [[AFI (band)|AFI]], with roots in hardcore and skate punk, had great success with 2003's ''[[Sing the Sorrow]]'' and topped the U.S. chart with ''[[Decemberunderground]]'' in 2006. Ska punk groups such as [[Reel Big Fish]] and [[Less Than Jake]] continued to attract new fans. Celtic punk, with U.S. bands such as [[Flogging Molly]] and [[Dropkick Murphys]] merging the sound of Oi! and The Pogues, reached wide audiences. The Australian punk rock tradition was carried on by groups such as [[Frenzal Rhomb]], [[The Living End]], and [[Bodyjar]]. |
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[[Image:NOFX3.jpg|thumb|right|[[NOFX]] in concert in 2007]] |
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With punk rock's renewed visibility came concerns among some in the punk community that the music was being co-opted by the mainstream.<ref name="punkbroke" /> They argued that by signing to major labels and appearing on MTV, punk bands like Green Day were buying into a system that punk was created to challenge.<ref>Myers (2006), p. 120.</ref> Such controversies have been part of the punk culture since 1977, when The Clash was widely accused of "selling out" for signing with [[Columbia Records|CBS Records]].<ref>Knowles (2003), p. 44.</ref> The effect of commercialization on the music itself was an even more contentious issue. As observed by scholar Ross Haenfler, many punk fans "'despise corporate punk rock', typified by bands such as Sum 41 and Blink 182".<ref>Haenfler (2006), p. 12.</ref> By the 1990s, punk rock was so sufficiently ingrained in Western culture that punk trappings were often used to market highly commercial bands as "rebels". Marketers capitalized on the style and hipness of punk rock to such an extent that a 1993 ad campaign for an automobile, the [[Subaru Impreza]], claimed that the car was "like punk rock".<ref>Klein (2000), p. 300.</ref> Although the commercial mainstream has exploited many elements of punk, numerous underground punk scenes still exist around the world. |
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The exact paragraph could read. |
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==See also== |
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{{wikinews|Vivien Goldman: An interview with the Punk Professor}} |
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*[[List of punk bands]] |
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*[[Punk rock subgenres]] |
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*[[Timeline of punk rock]] |
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"Communist states have a tendency to have faltered economies and often suppress civil liberties. On multiple occasions, they have committed genocide." |
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==Footnotes== |
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We can put that in the top of the article, I just think the previous wasn't wikified enough. --[[User:Rockstone35|Rockstone35]] ([[User talk:Rockstone35|talk]]) 01:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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{{reflist|3}} |
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===Editorial column=== |
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==Bibliography== |
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{{refbegin|2}} |
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*Anderson, Mark (2002). "Zunō keisatsu", in ''Encyclopedia of Contemporary Japanese Culture'', ed. Sandra Buckley (London and New York: Routledge), p. 588. ISBN 0-415-14344-6 |
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*Bessman, Jim (1993). ''Ramones: An American Band'' (New York: St. Martin's). ISBN 0-312-09369-1 |
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*Blush, Steven (2001). ''American Hardcore: A Tribal History'' (Los Angeles: Feral House). ISBN 0-922915-71-7 |
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*Bockris, Victor, and Roberta Bayley (1999). ''Patti Smith: An Unauthorized Biography'' (New York: Simon & Schuster). ISBN 0-6848-2363-2 |
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*Buckley, Peter, ed. (2003). ''The Rough Guide to Rock'' (London: Rough Guides). ISBN 1-84353-105-4 |
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*[[Julie Burchill|Burchill, Julie]], and [[Tony Parsons (British journalist)|Tony Parsons]] (1978). ''The Boy Looked at Johnny: The Obituary of Rock and Roll'' (London: Pluto Press). ISBN 0-86104-030-9 |
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*Burns, Rob, ed. (1995). ''German Cultural Studies: An Introduction'' (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press). ISBN 0-1987-1503-X |
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*Colegrave, Stephen, and Chris Sullivan (2005). ''Punk: The Definitive Record of a Revolution'' (New York: Thunder's Mouth). ISBN 1-56025-769-5 |
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*Fletcher, Tony (2000). ''Moon: The Life and Death of a Rock Legend'' (New York: HarperCollins). ISBN 0-380-78827-6 |
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*Friedlander, Paul, with Peter Miller (2006). ''Rock and Roll: A Social History'', 2d ed. (Boulder, Co.: Westview). ISBN 0-8133-4306-2 |
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*Friskics-Warren, Bill (2005). ''I'll Take You There: Pop Music And the Urge for Transcendence'' (New York and London: Continuum International). ISBN 0-8264-1700-0 |
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*Gendron, Bernard (2002). ''Between Montmartre and the Mudd Club: Popular Music and the Avant-Garde'' (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press). ISBN 0-226-28735-1 |
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*Gimarc, George (1997). ''Post Punk Diary, 1980–1982'' (New York: St. Martin's). ISBN 0-312-16968-X |
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*Glasper, Ian (2004). ''Burning Britain—The History of UK Punk 1980–1984'' (London: Cherry Red Books). ISBN 1-901447-24-3 |
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*Gross, Joe (2004). "Rancid", in ''The New Rolling Stone Album Guide'', 4th ed., ed. Nathan Brackett (New York: Fireside/Simon & Schuster), p. 677. ISBN 0-7432-0169-8 |
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*Haenfler, Ross (2006). ''Straight Edge: Hardcore Punk, Clean-Living Youth, and Social Change'' (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press). ISBN 0-8135-3852-1 |
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*Harrington, Joe S. (2002). ''Sonic Cool: The Life & Death of Rock 'n' Roll'' (Milwaukee, Wisc.: Hal Leonard). ISBN 0-634-02861-8 |
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*Harris, John (2004). ''Britpop!: Cool Britannia and the Spectacular Demise of English Rock'' (Cambridge, Mass.: Da Capo) ISBN 0-306-81367-X |
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*[[Dick Hebdige|Hebdige, Dick]] (1987). ''Cut 'n' Mix: Culture, Identity and Caribbean Music'' (London: Routledge). ISBN 0-4150-5875-9 |
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*Heylin, Clinton (1993). ''From the Velvets to the Voidoids: The Birth of American Punk Rock'' (Chicago: A Cappella Books). ISBN 1-55652-573-3 |
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*Home, Stewart (1996). ''Cranked Up Really High: Genre Theory and Punk Rock'' (Hove, UK: Codex). ISBN 1-8995-9801-4 |
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*Keithley, Joe (2004). ''I, Shithead: A Life in Punk'' (Vancouver: Arsenal Pulp Press). ISBN 1-55152-148-2 |
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*[[Naomi Klein|Klein, Naomi]] (2000). ''[[No Logo|No LOGO: Taking Aim at the Brand Bullies]]'' (New York: Picador). ISBN 0-312-20343-8 |
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*Leblanc, Lauraine (1999). ''Pretty in Punk: Girls' Gender Resistance in a Boys' Subculture'' (New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press). ISBN 0-8135-2651-5 |
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*[[John Lydon|Lydon, John]] (1995). ''Rotten: No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs'' (New York: Picador). ISBN 0-312-11883-X |
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*McCaleb, Ian (1991). "Radio Birdman", in ''The Trouser Press Record Guide'', 4th ed., ed. Ira Robbins (New York: Collier), pp. 529–530. ISBN 0-02-036361-3 |
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*McFarlane, Ian (1999). ''The Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop'' (St Leonards, Aus.: Allen & Unwin). ISBN 1-86508-072-1 |
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*[[Legs McNeil|McNeil, Legs]], and Gillian McCain (2006 [1997]). ''Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk'' (New York: Grove). ISBN 0-8021-4264-8 |
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*Miles, Barry, Grant Scott, and Johnny Morgan (2005). ''The Greatest Album Covers of All Time'' (London: Collins & Brown). ISBN 1-84340-301-3 |
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*[[Ben Myers|Myers, Ben]] (2006). ''Green Day: American Idiots & the New Punk Explosion'' (New York: Disinformation). ISBN 1-932857-32-X |
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*Nobahkt, David (2004). ''Suicide: No Compromise'' (London: SAF). ISBN 0-946719-71-3 |
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*O'Hara, Craig (1999). ''The Philosophy of Punk: More Than Noise'' (San Francisco and Edinburgh: AK Press). ISBN 1-873176-16-3 |
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*Palmer, Robert (1992). "The Church of the Sonic Guitar", in ''Present Tense: Rock & Roll and Culture'', ed. Anthony DeCurtis (Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press), pp. 13–38. ISBN 0-8223-1265-4 |
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*Reynolds, Simon (2005). ''Rip It Up and Start Again: Post Punk 1978–1984'' (London and New York: Faber and Faber). ISBN 0-571-21569-6 |
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*Rodel, Angela (2004). "Extreme Noise Terror: Punk Rock and the Aesthetics of Badness", in ''Bad Music: The Music We Love to Hate'', ed. Christopher Washburne and Maiken Derno (New York: Routledge), pp. 235–256. ISBN 0-415-94365-5 |
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*[[Jon Savage|Savage, Jon]] (1991). ''England's Dreaming: The Sex Pistols and Punk Rock'' (London: Faber and Faber). ISBN 0-312-28822-0 |
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*Savage, Jon (1992). ''England's Dreaming: Anarchy, Sex Pistols, Punk Rock, and Beyond'' (New York: St. Martin's). ISBN 0-312-08774-8 |
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*Shapiro, Fred R. (2006). ''Yale Book of Quotations'' (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press). ISBN 0-300-10798-6 |
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*Schmidt, Axel, and Klaus Neumann-Braun (2004). ''Die Welt der Gothics: Spielräume düster konnotierter Tranzendenz'' (Wiesbaden: VS Verlag). ISBN 3-531-14353-0 |
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*Shuker, Roy (2002). ''Popular Music: The Key Concepts'' (London: Routledge). ISBN 0-4152-8425-2 |
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*Simpson, Paul (2003). ''The Rough Guide to Cult Pop: The Songs, the Artists, the Genres, the Dubious Fashions'' (London: Rough Guides). ISBN 1-84353-229-8 |
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*Spitz, Mark, and Brendan Mullen (2001). ''We Got the Neutron Bomb: The Untold Story of L.A. Punk'' (New York: Three Rivers Press). ISBN 0-609-80774-9 |
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*Stafford, Andrew (2006). ''Pig City: From the Saints to Savage Garden'', 2d rev. ed. (Brisbane: University of Queensland Press). ISBN 0-7022-3561-X |
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*Stark, James (2006). ''Punk '77: An Inside Look at the San Francisco Rock N' Roll Scene'', 3d ed. (San Francisco: RE/Search Publications). ISBN 1-889307-14-9 |
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*Strohm, John (2004). "Women Guitarists: Gender Issues in Alternative Rock", in ''The Electric Guitar: A History of an American Icon'', ed. A. J. Millard (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press), pp. 181–200. ISBN 0-8018-7862-4 |
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*St. Thomas, Kurt, with Troy Smith (2002). ''Nirvana: The Chosen Rejects'' (New York: St. Martin's). ISBN 0-312-20663-1 |
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*Taylor, Steven (2003). ''False Prophet: Field Notes from the Punk Underground'' (Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan University Press). ISBN 0-8195-6668-3 |
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*Taylor, Steve (2004). ''The A to X of Alternative Music'' (London and New York: Continuum). ISBN 0-8264-8217-1 |
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*Unterberger, Richie (1998). ''Unknown Legends of Rock 'n' Roll: Psychedelic Unknowns, Mad Geniuses, Punk Pioneers, Lo-Fi Mavericks & More'' (San Francisco: Backbeat). ISBN 0-87930-534-7 |
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*Unterberger, Richie (1999). ''Music USA: The Rough Guide'' (London: Rough Guides). ISBN 1-85828-421-X |
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*Walker, John (1991). "Television", in ''The Trouser Press Record Guide'', 4th ed., ed. Ira Robbins (New York: Collier), p. 662. ISBN 0-02-036361-3 |
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*Walsh, Gavin (2006). ''Punk on 45; Revolutions on Vinyl, 1976–79'' (London: Plexus). ISBN 0-8596-5370-6 |
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*[[Steven Wells|Wells, Steven]] (2004). ''Punk: Loud, Young & Snotty: The Story Behind the Songs'' (New York and London: Thunder's Mouth). ISBN 1-56025-573-0 |
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*Wilkerson, Mark Ian (2006). ''Amazing Journey: The Life of Pete Townshend'' (Louisville: Bad News Press). ISBN 1-4116-7700-5 |
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*Wojcik, Daniel (1995). ''Punk and Neo-Tribal Body Art'' (Jackson: University Press of Mississippi). ISBN 0-87805-735-8 |
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{{refend}} |
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I'm not sure if the criticism is an editorial. I think that the same information just needs to be wikified after much thought. --[[User:Rockstone35|Rockstone35]] ([[User talk:Rockstone35|talk]]) 01:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC) |
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==External links== |
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{{commonscat|Punk rock}} |
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*[http://www.distortedmagazine.com Distorted Magazine] monthly online punk rock magazine |
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*[http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm A History of Punk] 1990 essay by rock critic A.S. Van Dorston. |
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*[http://www.punk77.co.uk/ Punk 77] history of early UK punk |
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:There is probably some language which could be changed to be a little more neutral; and some better references could be found (the existing references were the result of about 15 minutes web-searching). There could be a section in the body of the article which expanded on the results of Communist rule - there were some positive things for some places - gender equality generally advanced in ways which survived the fall of Communism; the more industrialized Communist states managed to get passable roads and rural electrification rolled out faster than other countries with similar incomes did, that sort of thing. But that would require more work and some significant research for good sources. <span style="font-family:serif;font-size:120%">'''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]]''' [[User talk:Argyriou|(talk)]]</span> 01:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC) |
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{{rock}} |
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{{}} |
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== North Korea == |
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{{featured article}} |
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Is North Korea a Communist State? The constitution [http://www.novexcn.com/dprk_constitution_98.html] clearly states that it is a socialist state. "Communism" is mentioned two times. Article 19: "Socialism and Communism are built by the creative labor of the working masses." Article 40: "The DPRK shall, by carrying out a thorough cultural revolution, train the working people to be builders of socialism and communism equipped with a profound knowledge of nature and society and a high level of culture and technology, thus making the whole of society intellectual."[[User:Ultramarine|Ultramarine]] ([[User talk:Ultramarine|talk]]) 20:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC) |
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== Cyprus == |
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[[Category:Punk rock|*]] |
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[[Category:Rock music genres]] |
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[[Category:Youth culture in the United Kingdom]] |
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New Cypriot President is the leader of Communist Party. Should this be noted in the article? --[[User:Avala|Avala]] ([[User talk:Avala|talk]]) 22:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC) |
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{{link FA|th}} |
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[[ar:بانك]] |
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== References == |
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References 5-9 are the same source. Why? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/58.174.150.35|58.174.150.35]] ([[User talk:58.174.150.35|talk]]) 13:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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The references here are a total disgrace. The article should be renamed "The communist state, according to Robert K Furtak". Here are some more problems: |
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Ref 1 proposes that the communist manifesto supports that "Within Marxist theory, world communism is the final phase of history at which time the state would have withered away". The communist manifesto has generally, in marxist theory and by marx and engels, been seen as an interesting but immature work and it doesn't speak of any "final phase of history". |
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Ref 2 proposes that "According to democratic centralism, all leaders must be elected by the people and all proposals must be debated openly, but, once a decision has been reached, all people have a duty to obey that decision and all debate should end. When used within a political party, democratic centralism is meant to prevent factionalism and splits. When applied to an entire state, democratic centralism creates a one-party system." |
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If that is the case then every state ruled by laws created by a centralized democratic parliament would be a "one-party system", but that is plain silly. That a central parliament creates laws that are to be obeyed by all is standard procedure in modern democracies. |
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Ref 8 tries to support the claim that "communist states are widely seen as being de facto dictatorships by historians and sociologists" by linking to a German government report about human rights in Germany. Why? [[User:Vidugavia|Vidugavia]] ([[User talk:Vidugavia|talk]]) 19:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC) |
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:If you wish to add more references, please do so. No one will stop you. Furthermore, the "references" are actually inline citations for the same reference, so there's really no problem. We don't have to limit citations to one per reference. Even-further-more, can you give us any citations for your statements? I'm still trying to read the manifesto, but as you say, it's not a great work. I wouldn't call it immature, but it feels like reading the notes on a bunch of napkins. |
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If you think a reference, or a statement with an inadequate reference, should be removed, be [[WP:BOLD|bold]] and remove it. And to clarify the thing about one-party systems, the idea is probably that it creates unity, and the article should be changed to reflect that better, though I can't say that this is the intent of the author. [[User:Tealwisp|Tealwisp]] ([[User talk:Tealwisp|talk]]) 05:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 05:54, 13 October 2008
Archives
Archive 1 -- Archive 2 -- Archive 3 -- Archive 4 -- Archive 5 -- Archive 6 -- Archive 7 -- Archive 8 -- Archive 9
Sources
This article has a source problem - when POV'ed sources are used, the article will also be POV'ed. E.g. "Resolution 1481 (2006)1 Need for international condemnation of crimes of totalitarian communist regimes " - This has not been accepted yet, but still it has been sourced - why? --83.84.138.101 (talk) 00:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
POV
L.S.
This article is dubious. Why? There are too many opinions involved, too many subjective sources (whether they're sources or not: a bad source is a bad source) and too many opinionated conclusions. I would like to ask every serious wikipedia-editer on this page start looking sceptic at both pro- as anti-POV's, and delete them when you have a mere reason. Do add it to the talk-page, so that others can react incase of injust. We were all instructed to be harsh on un-sourced and "POV-ed" articles in the wikipedia-policy mail which we received. So let us do so. --83.84.138.101 (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with your assertions of dubiousness. If anything, the article is more neutral than any other I've seen. It was overhauled by someone freakishly intelligent from a biased, uninformative propaganda page into something beautiful. It is now an article that acknowledges every viewpoint while remaining objective and unbiased. Also, the sources are not bad. unfortunately, wikipedia doesn't allow any original research (a huge problem among the intellectual community) so the knowledge and words of modern communists can't be cited until someone records them, gets people to peer review them, and publishes them, all of which are not likely to be done for a single wikipedia article. Take a look at the talk page, and you will find that the article was written to satisfy as many people as possible to the greatest extent, including those with less than common viewpoints. Further, you have not pointed out any of these "opinionated conclusions" and "subjective sources."Llama (talk) 08:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- I thank you for your reaction (seem not to get so many??)! Yes, the sources have been updated and fixed (see Calz's "preserved for ages" part about Genocide), but there were alot of "dubious" sources before. Yet, I find it strange that we use a European Resolution (which has not been accepted -yet- !) taht wants to condemn Commmunist regimes. Shouldn't we wait e.g. until the Resolution is actually taken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.138.101 (talk) 09:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Genocide??
What is this nonsense about communist states and Genocide? This article should be about the idea of an communist state, not of the failure of some. And if so; then write it in a subsection. Let's not start about the "Capitalism and Iraq thing" shall we..? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.138.101 (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- What nonsense? Your genocide denial because the sources provided were not pro-communist sources? I've reverted your edit and placed a warning on your talk page for removal of sourced content. Get out of your little communist fantasyland and join the real worl, in which communists are the biggest killers, before editing again. Argyriou (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
...Whoa, whoa! Don't get so upset! Just ask him for his proof. I may be new here, but I still think that there should be some civility here. (And how do you sign these comments?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.208.60.88 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Argy, please read the Wikipedia guide-lines, about sources. Also, maybe something about objectivity? There's no need for you to attack my person at all and I find it very much childish that [b]you changed my original comment[/b] - I did not write down "genocide state" but "communist state". I will go to a moderator if you continue this. Don't feel offended - you might think that the best skippers are standing on the shore - but, indeed, talk. This is is a talk page. Please do ask for my proof. Untill than: the article is restored --83.84.138.101 (talk) 21:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- You state: This article should be about the idea of an communist state, not of the failure of some.. That's incorrect. This article is about the theory and practice of Communist states. That includes the failures of Communism, which include, as a very significant feature of many Communist states, genocide. As many beleive that genocide is not an accidental feature of Communism, and there is thorough, reliable, and significant documentation of deliberate Communist genocide, it is entirely appropriate to mention that in the lead of the article. Trying to remove any mention of genocide, or to confine it to a sub-section, is as blatantly POV as not mentioning anti-semitism in the lead of the article on Nazism. Argyriou (talk) 23:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Come now, Angry you, that's not how we play the game - the urge to destroy that which we cannot tolerate is as unbecoming on you as is was on Stalin or Pol Pot. I, for my part, may rest easy in the knowledge that my magnificent sense of humor (and legitimate criticism of your source material) is preserved for the ages, but don't let our little lover's spat cause you to delete the commentary of innocent bystanders - they didn't bother you that much two days ago...Calzero (talk) 02:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- For all your flippancy, you don't actually say much. In particular, for all your derision, you never once explain what is wrong with Rummel's compilations, or why they should not be taken seriously. As you haven't actually contributed anything of use to this article, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously anymore.
- Come now, Angry you, that's not how we play the game - the urge to destroy that which we cannot tolerate is as unbecoming on you as is was on Stalin or Pol Pot. I, for my part, may rest easy in the knowledge that my magnificent sense of humor (and legitimate criticism of your source material) is preserved for the ages, but don't let our little lover's spat cause you to delete the commentary of innocent bystanders - they didn't bother you that much two days ago...Calzero (talk) 02:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I will again delete the statement about Genocide. Why? Because Genocide means "whiping (read: trying to whipe out)" people - based on etnical reasons (Holocaust). Yes, this did occur in the USSR when Stalin's anti-seministic thoughts broke out. But did this happen in Cuba? Did this happen in North-Korea? Did this happen anywhere else (Tibet disputable though!)? Genocide - based on etnical (or religous) reasons? No. It is wrong to characterize this with "the Communist States". You're reasoning Argy is totally wrong. It is wrong to think that just because the Supermarket is selling eggs, that it also lays them! Yes, I give: revolution mostly is paired with mass-murders - but that's apple. We're talking about peares. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.138.101 (talk) 20:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- The extermination of the kulaks is a genocide, as is every other Communist attempt to wipe out members of the productive classes and their families and relatives. Genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such. However, as the "in part" is arguable, I'm going to restore the text, replacing "genocide" with "mass murder". Argyriou (talk) 21:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
a part so americans/capitalist genocide iraqeni, vietnamites, japanese, germans, italians, redskins and many others?--Francomemoria (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, yes Argy - finaly logic is starting to take over - but not quite. A Communist State does not mean that the State is Communist - it can also be mean that a Communist-party is ruling it (see paragraph below). Mass murder does not occur in those states. Yes, mass murders did occur, but these were more because of Social-economic instability, than by Communism. You still seem very reluctant to understand where this article is about. We already have a dozen pages on wiki concerning mass-murders, you can link them - however, don't characterize the article with them!--83.84.138.101 (talk) 00:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
"Communist states are also known for mas murder of their citizens, sometimes amounting to millions of deaths." - I'm sorry Argy, but this still isn't acceptable. You're kind of generalizing. Do you chop down all the trees when one leave falls on your head?... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.138.101 (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- You have to demonstrate the falsity of the statement, which is impossible, as Communist states do kill very large numbers of their citizens. I've replaced the statement. Leave it in unless you can show that the facts are incorrect, or that the wording is biased. Stating facts which make Communists look bad isn't bias. Read the bit in WP:NPOV about Hitler - this is the same sort of situation. Argyriou (talk) 23:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- No offence, but I did, now please reply my to arguments, you have been avoiding them all the time. It kind of makes me tired. You did not even reply to Calzo. Come on now! And, why would a statement have to be stated if it's falsity can not be proved? | Have you again deleted somebody's comment? Calzo's page is not available any more...hmmm... --83.84.138.101 (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
So not all communist states are communist states?
"Communist states may have several legal political parties, but the Communist Party is constitutionally guaranteed a dominant role in government." If a state has a communist party governing it, is it not a communist state even if other parties would be able to take the communist party's place in the government?-- 213.67.208.186 (talk) 22:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Other parties were not able to take over, because in all cases the minor parties did not compete with the CP for power, they worked with it. There is only one historical example of a socialist (not communist) state where parties actively competed with one another within the united front. —Sesel (talk) 23:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Sattelite state / client state
It seems to me as a classic POV to refer to those in the soviet sphere of influence as "sattelite state" (negative connotations) and to those in the american sphere of influence as "client state" (neutral connotations). Other Opinions ?-- ExpImptalk con 23:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- The term client state is not used within the current form of this article. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
- most where not taking direct orders from Washington? So all the dictatorships in south america didnt take direct orders from Washington?? thats a Lie! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.7.6 (talk) 22:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
List of Defunct Communist states
I think the chart listing defunct Communist states should be restored as it's quite useful, particularly as it also lists ruling parties, and as all the states listed are mentioned in the body of the article (if it's not original research to mention them in the text, it shouldn't be to list them in a chart). General Idea 01:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- The table was a hub of original research: there were no sources to suggest that historians refer to those former states as "communist states." Also, this article is about a formal constitutional structure known as a communist state, not about particular countries or regimes and their histories. -- WGee 07:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- How is it original research if it just charts information that's already listed in the article? General Idea 01:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- General Idea, the chart was a hub for original research because it encouraged editors to list terms associated with various events that did not refer to entities widely recognized by historians and political scientists as "states," such as the "Soviet Republic of Naissaar," the "Limerick Soviet," and the "Azerbaijan People's Government." It also encouraged editors to frequntly add regimes such as Nicaragua under the Sandinstas and Granada before the 1983 U.S. invasion, which had not clearly established constitutional structures formalizing single party Communist leadership. 172 | Talk 06:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could create a new list and minimize the threat of original research by setting up clear criteria for what counts as a "communist state". For example, the state must make references to Marxism-Leninism in its constitution - this would be particularly useful in eliminating short-lived entities because they never had the time to pass constitutions. For verifiability, we could require links to the relevant parts of the constitutions of the countries in question. -- Nikodemos 23:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
world communism restricted by socialist states themselves?
I'm not the biggest fan of communism in the world, but could someone explain to me why, if the USSR and Maoist China, who bordered each other, both were aiming for the goal of world communism, they didn't merge into one 'state' anyway? Surely this could've eradicated and absorbed Mongolia as well? This may be a terribily basic question but what's the answer?
- Long story short, they battled over ideological orthodoxy, and this prevented that sort of co-operation. The rulers of the USSR and the PRC were propelled into power in the main by different class forces (the "proletariat" and the "peasantry", respectively). Besides that, there is the question of which stage of development each country was in according to Marxist theory. Both states aimed at building socialism, while communism would come later. —Sesel 23:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, but is this the case with other bordering areas like North Korea and Vietnam as well?
- Yes. Each country had ideological and political differences. —Sesel 23:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
- Both countries were run by despots who had no intention of cooperation, bastardized Marxism and betrayed it. Stalin's theory of "socialism in one country" which Mao more or less accepted and pursued, invalidated the original idea of "world revolution". The Soviet Union and PRC were not communist, Marxist, or socialist. (Demigod Ron (talk) 03:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC))
- Okay, but is this the case with other bordering areas like North Korea and Vietnam as well?
Geographic connectedness
Did you notice that with the exception of Cuba, you can travel by land between all the current Communist states without travelling over the territory of another state (from Laos through Vietnam through China through North Korea) ? I bet the same is also true before the Soviet collapse. 24.113.177.5 00:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- This might be worth noting in the article. the circumstance of geographic proximity is due to the fact that the USSR expanded outward and those areas that it took over or influenced were often in contact with the USSR via direct land border. Any dissent to a section on "geographic clustering" would be appreciated. I can't think of any reason why it's not worth mentioning.Llama (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Biased view concerning opening paragraphs
As I was reading this article, the phrasing of certain sentences within certian paragraphs struck me as very anti-communist, and straying away from pure facts. I've highlighted portions within the paragraphs where, after reading this, I've felt that revisions should be considered.
The primary features of a Communist state are a one-party dictatorship, totalitarian control of the economy and society, repression of civil liberties, centralized economic planning resulting in enormous economic failures, including shortages of vital products, sometimes to the extent of famine,[1] militarism, and omnipresent propaganda to cover up the systematic failures of the government. Genocide is a common occurrence in Communist states
In Communist theory, after the victory of the Communists, the state "withers away"[14]. According to orthodox Marxist theoreticians, the term "Communist State" is a contradiction.[citation needed]
In multi-party liberal democracies, the system of government (executive, legislative and judicial) operates independently of any political party, with each party competing for a right to control the system of government for a specific tenure. In Communist states, however, state institutions and party institutions depend on each other to function effectively.
What separates Communist states from other one-party systems is the fact that ruling authorities in a Communist state claim to be guided by Marxist-Leninist or Maoist ideology. For Marxist-Leninists, the state and the Communist Party claim to act in accordance with the wishes of the industrial working class; for Maoists, the state and party claim to act in accordance to the peasantry. Both systems claim to have implemented a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat, and both claim to be moving towards the gradual abolition of the state and the implementation of communism. These claims have been strongly disputed by opponents of the historical Communist states, including communists who do not subscribe to Marxism-Leninism and Maoism or who regard these states as bastardizations of the ideology.
One portion, such as the "repression of civil liberties", seem incorrect to begin with. A communist state puts the focus on the people as a whole, with less focus on the individual, in a simplistic format - therefore, shouldn't individual replace civil? Stating civil carries a heavy depiction of cruel and/or barbaric treatment.
Another portion involves the last paragraph highlighted, in the portion talking about "Both systems claim to have..." Once again, this seems to be using what has happened in past and current forms of communist societies as truth in what the ideology of a communist state is.
Now, while some of these statements are true in an anecdotal form, that shouldn't stand for an encyclopedic view of what the ideology is, since anecdotal evidence is not evidence in itself. These paragraphs are blurring the lines between facts about the idealogy of what a communist state is, and the historical events of individual communist states.
67.187.169.243 (talk) 07:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Sean "saint saturn" Willis
"Genocide is a common occurrence in Communist states."
This add, with many ref from 2 to 13, i'm not sure that all the source referenced cited this--87.6.222.51 (talk) 18:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)sorry --Francomemoria (talk) 18:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
now i'm sure that not all source reported this--Francomemoria (talk) 13:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Add section about the term "communist state"
"Communist state" is a term denounced by every communist I know (including me), so I think we should add a section about the name referring to socialist states. It's simply because the countries listed are not really communist, and I don't know if any one has mentioned it, but "communist state" is a misnomer for "socialist state". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tealwisp (talk • contribs) 07:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- There is already a passage about the issue in the name section. Also, note that your point is very much a matter of POV, overlooking what the term actually means in the view of those who (rightly or wrongly) coined it. Str1977 (talk) 19:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Definition of capitalist state
under the list of communist states, and elsewhere, the article states or implies that a state in which the communist party has become intertwined with the government is a communist state.
I think this may mislead people, as nations like the US and UK are capitalist states, but don't have capitalist parties (bu name, at least)
Additionally, the article is by no means neutral and is extremely anti-communist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tealwisp (talk • contribs) 08:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- "...the article states or implies that a state in which the communist party has become intertwined with the government is a communist state."
- Yes, it does.
- "I think this may mislead people, as nations like the US and UK are capitalist states, but don't have capitalist parties (bu name, at least)"
- But they don't need to. The article makes a statement about communist states - there's no need for a mirroring statement about capitalist states (assuming that such entities, mirroing communist states, exist) to be true. We simply make no stament about capitalist states here, only about communist states. Str1977 (talk) 19:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- How come there is no article for Capitalist state?
- Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 13:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- How could their be? Is there as state which is capatalist by its constitution? What makes a state capitalist? Is it a matter of politics (as in Communist states) or of economics? I think it is economics and therefore it is not part of the definition of a state by its constitution. Str1977 (talk) 09:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- i know that in some constitutions econimics is part of constitution, or there are laws on that.--Francomemoria (talk) 12:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Because there are no countries which constitutionally provide for their government to be led by a capitalist party. There is no unified Capitalist International. Capitalism, as an ideological movement, is far less organized than Communism, because by its nature, all societies tend towards capitalism, and governments have to exert significant efforts to make societies less capitalist. A capitalist state is the natural state of affairs, yet is also something of a contradiction in terms, as state action is almost always interfering with capitalism. Argyriou (talk) 01:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Criticisms section (regarding contentious material)
I have moved it into the criticism section because I felt that it would appear too factual in an opening paragraph. In the criticism section, it is equal on both sides. Also, the criticism section was needed anyway, so it can be expanded. Thank you for coming with an agreement --Rockstone35 (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with this movement, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, WP:NPOV discourages "criticism" sections; criticisms should be handled within the article generally. Secondly, as this article is about both the theory and practice of Communist states, a summary of all important information about existing Communist states ought to be presented in the introduction, and expanded upon further down in the article. The totalitarian nature and economic and moral failings of Communist states are important aspects of the history and practice of Communism, and should not be minimized by removal from the lead. Argyriou (talk) 01:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I am recommending we keep the section the way it is until we can come to a complete agreement. While the evils of the communist state needs to be addressed, perhaps it can be worded so it is not so obvious that it is biased against communism. If the criticisms section is handled within the article generally, the article might as well be named criticisms of communist state's. We could add a page and put a large amount of criticisms there, and link to it from this one. That way, the article doesn't swarm with bias against communist states. We can also merge this article with communism, and allow the criticisms already in place to be part of it. While we both must reach an agreement, other people's opinions might be taken into consideration. --Rockstone35 (talk) 01:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- This article and Communism are too big to be merged.
- Describing facts is neutral. Stating that Communist states have all failed economies is factual - they all have. Stating that Communist states suppress civil liberties is factual - all Communist states suppress civil liberties. Saying that many Communist states have committed genocide is neutral - many have. These statements make Communist states look bad - that's because the facts are that the leaders of Communist states did many bad things. As quoted in WP:NPOV:
| “ | You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. | ” |
- The same applies to the greater crimes of the Communists.
- If you believe the way I've presented the facts is not neutral, please say so, with specific examples, and your suggestions for rewording them. Argyriou (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The article isn't neutral entirely. At the end of the Soviet union, Gorbachev's reforms ended most of these. Civil liberties, while I agree that it is true, is not technically right, as China has privacy and freedom of speech as a human right. But the government can censor anything not in it's interests.
The exact paragraph could read.
"Communist states have a tendency to have faltered economies and often suppress civil liberties. On multiple occasions, they have committed genocide." We can put that in the top of the article, I just think the previous wasn't wikified enough. --Rockstone35 (talk) 01:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Editorial column
I'm not sure if the criticism is an editorial. I think that the same information just needs to be wikified after much thought. --Rockstone35 (talk) 01:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- There is probably some language which could be changed to be a little more neutral; and some better references could be found (the existing references were the result of about 15 minutes web-searching). There could be a section in the body of the article which expanded on the results of Communist rule - there were some positive things for some places - gender equality generally advanced in ways which survived the fall of Communism; the more industrialized Communist states managed to get passable roads and rural electrification rolled out faster than other countries with similar incomes did, that sort of thing. But that would require more work and some significant research for good sources. Argyriou (talk) 01:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
{{}}
North Korea
Is North Korea a Communist State? The constitution [1] clearly states that it is a socialist state. "Communism" is mentioned two times. Article 19: "Socialism and Communism are built by the creative labor of the working masses." Article 40: "The DPRK shall, by carrying out a thorough cultural revolution, train the working people to be builders of socialism and communism equipped with a profound knowledge of nature and society and a high level of culture and technology, thus making the whole of society intellectual."Ultramarine (talk) 20:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Cyprus
New Cypriot President is the leader of Communist Party. Should this be noted in the article? --Avala (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
References
References 5-9 are the same source. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.150.35 (talk) 13:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The references here are a total disgrace. The article should be renamed "The communist state, according to Robert K Furtak". Here are some more problems:
Ref 1 proposes that the communist manifesto supports that "Within Marxist theory, world communism is the final phase of history at which time the state would have withered away". The communist manifesto has generally, in marxist theory and by marx and engels, been seen as an interesting but immature work and it doesn't speak of any "final phase of history".
Ref 2 proposes that "According to democratic centralism, all leaders must be elected by the people and all proposals must be debated openly, but, once a decision has been reached, all people have a duty to obey that decision and all debate should end. When used within a political party, democratic centralism is meant to prevent factionalism and splits. When applied to an entire state, democratic centralism creates a one-party system."
If that is the case then every state ruled by laws created by a centralized democratic parliament would be a "one-party system", but that is plain silly. That a central parliament creates laws that are to be obeyed by all is standard procedure in modern democracies.
Ref 8 tries to support the claim that "communist states are widely seen as being de facto dictatorships by historians and sociologists" by linking to a German government report about human rights in Germany. Why? Vidugavia (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you wish to add more references, please do so. No one will stop you. Furthermore, the "references" are actually inline citations for the same reference, so there's really no problem. We don't have to limit citations to one per reference. Even-further-more, can you give us any citations for your statements? I'm still trying to read the manifesto, but as you say, it's not a great work. I wouldn't call it immature, but it feels like reading the notes on a bunch of napkins.
If you think a reference, or a statement with an inadequate reference, should be removed, be bold and remove it. And to clarify the thing about one-party systems, the idea is probably that it creates unity, and the article should be changed to reflect that better, though I can't say that this is the intent of the author. Tealwisp (talk) 05:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)