Talk:White Hispanic and Latino Americans and TR 1736: Difference between pages

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==Additions?==
I am considering adding more Mexican-american's to the pictures... after all they represent half of all white hispanics. What do you all think? Romo, de la hoya, ted williams, jeff garcia, just to name a few.

:Do it. Replace some Cuban Americans, or else we'll have one big gallery on our hands. But look beyond just Mexican Americans, too. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] 23:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:There is too much focus on Cuban Americans in this article. It would be nice to add more non-Cuban White Hispanics in this page. I already removed two Cubans and added the Spanish-American [[Michael Lopez-Alegria]] and the Chilean-American [[Isabel Allende]], and I also added the Argentine-American [[Julie Gonzalo]]. Cubans aren't the only White Hispanics in the US. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] 22:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
i got some ideas on some other white hispanics beside cuban ones,shakira columbia,ricky martin puerto rican,jessica alba,ernesto che was from argentina i think not cuba , to name a few--[[User:Mikmik2953|Mikmik2953]] 05:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

:This article is about Hispanic in the United States who have white ancestory. Shakira is not American, she lives in Colombia. Che Guevara is no way American, he hated America. Ricky Martin can be added because even though he was born in Puerto Rico, He currently lives in Miami, and Puerto Ricans have automatic US citizenship because it is a US territory. Jessica Alba can be considered White Hispanic, but her father is a Mexican-American mestizo, ''so she might be considered'' '''[[Castizo]]'''. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] 06:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

::sorry did not know it was only united states white hispnics thought it ment all from south north and central.but jessica alba i know her father is part indigenous indian but i did read in an article somewhere that she considers herself white,and me myself would percive her to be--[[User:Mikmik2953|Mikmik2953]] 07:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Guess too much focus on Cuban Americans meant edit Migdia C. That sems a bit petty to me. Mig 05:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)--Mig 05:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Migdiachinea|Migdiachinea]] ([[User talk:Migdiachinea|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Migdiachinea|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Why is it petty? I don't understand why you'd call it that. Unless you know it to have been ill-intentioned (and I don't the person who did it, but [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Hispanic&diff=177924484&oldid=177921718 here's the diff]) you really shouldn't take it personally, Migdia. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 07:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Why not adding Martin Sheen?--[[User:Aryaman13|Ignacio Arrizabalaga]] ([[User talk:Aryaman13|talk]]) 18:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please add more Mexcan-americans pictures in this article. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jesusmariajalisco|Jesusmariajalisco]] ([[User talk:Jesusmariajalisco|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jesusmariajalisco|contribs]]) 04:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Jessica Alba?==
OK this article is a joke. [[Special:Contributions/76.237.14.47|76.237.14.47]] ([[User talk:76.237.14.47|talk]]) 04:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

== Jessica Alba again ==

I've seen her added and removed a couple of times. I don't have a strong position for or against, but before she's added back, let me say that I recall reading a quote from hers wherein she says she had some difficulty growing up mixed-race. So I'd be surprised if it turns out that she considers herself white. I think it's obvious that there's not much consensus for keeping her, so let's add someone else, please. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think she represents a ''[[Castizo]]'' which refers to people of a European appearence which she has..although i do understand with the person above, also she's doing a movie called Sisters with Paz Vega and Eliska Amor who are both of Spanish or descent.([[User:bluesky26|Bluesky]]) 017:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

so that would make her white if you look the part you are the part the majority of her hertiage is european she has some native ameridian from her father but so does johnny depp but he still white jessica alba would not be though of as another race if you took her and dropped her off in spain italy or greece etc,remeber hispanic or latino is not a race anyway so why a big deal.and yes i seen that article to but she was just playing on that sterotype in america that white means you have to be the color of snow to be white,white people skin varies.now put jessica alba next to an ameridian and than put her against lets say penelope cruz than tell me who she more resembles. there is a term for hispanic who look white but thet are really not is that not geting a liitle to subjective dont you think and i beliveve that was a term that was used in colonial latin america aint this 2007 not 1707 which was most likle a racistsystem--[[User:Mikmik2953|Mikmik2953]] 14:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

:The issue is not whether ''we'' think she's white, but whether ''she'' does. If she does, she should be included. But it's clear that there's uncertainty about her. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] 20:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

i repeat if you look the part you are the part her father a meso it not like hes even 100% ameridan, you do not make up your own race you do not have that option --[[User:Mikmik2953|Mikmik2953]] 20:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

:I never said what you think I said. Please read it more carefully. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] 21:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Jennifer Alba should not be included in this article, she is an Anglo-Mestiza. Her father is clearly of strong indio or mestizo Mexican heritage and her mother is an Anglo European(non-Spanish) so she can ''not'' be classified as a White Hispanic. Her own features also resemble more of a mestizo mixture (lips, nose, dark hair and eyes, tan skin) than those of a white hispanic. I know everyone would love to claim her as one of their own, but come on people, use some common sense [[User:KurtJak|KurtJak]] ([[User talk:KurtJak|talk]]) 11:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
:Agreed, check the source on her wikipedia article. She states, "I was always [self-conscious] of my puffy lips and darker skin when I was a kid, because I felt like I didn't fit in."[[User:CubanOne|CubanOne]] ([[User talk:CubanOne|talk]]) 12:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
::By the way, I believe that an individual should only be featured in this article if their heritage can clearly be identified or if they self identify as White Hispanic. Looks can be very deceiving when you're dealing with the issue of race. Take Robert Rodriguez for example (who is featured), he may have lighter skin, but his cousin is actor [[Danny Trejo]] who is clearly of indio descent. Rodriguez may be a mestizo who just happens to have features that can be identified as white by some but he may identify as mestizo and not white.[[User:CubanOne|CubanOne]] ([[User talk:CubanOne|talk]]) 12:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

== Hispanics in the United States - requested move ==

Hello everyone. There is at present a discussion going on at '''[[Talk:Hispanics in the United States|Hispanics in the United States]]''', due to the request that the page be moved to '''Hispanic Americans'''. Would you like to comment please? Thank you. [[User:The Ogre|The Ogre]] 18:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

== What about Trini Alvarado? ==

She is white too. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.6.1.135|88.6.1.135]] ([[User talk:88.6.1.135|talk]]) 03:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Oh yeah. I agree. She is like Alexis Bledel. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.136.54.128|70.136.54.128]] ([[User talk:70.136.54.128|talk]]) 06:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== White Mexican Americans ==

Lehoiberri and everyone, try these names. You can find more at [[List of Mexican Americans]]. I took a look at it and these names jumped out at me:
*[[Lefty Gomez]] Major League Baseball pitcher. He was white: in fact, he wouldn't have been allowed to play otherwise, at that time. This was before Jackie Robinson's hiring in 1947
*[[Buck Martinez]] Baseball commentator and former manager
*[[Ted Williams]] Great baseball player. Same situation as Gomez. But wait: I thought he was supposed to be half-Puerto Rican, not half-Mexican?
*[[Jeff Garcia]] NFL QB
*[[Catherine Bach]] Daisy Duke in [[Dukes of Hazzard]]
*[[Lynda Carter]] [[Wonder Woman]]
*[[Edward Furlong]] of [[Terminator 2]] movie
*[[Joanna Kerns]] Maggie Seaver of [[Growing Pains]]
*[[Ricardo Montalban]] of [[Fantasy Island]]
*[[Joan Baez]] folk singer
*[[Linda Ronstadt]] singer
*[[Ritchie Valens]] rock pioneer
*[[Cruz Bustamante]] California politician
*[[Bill Richardson]] Governor of New Mexico
*[[Ellen Ochoa]] Astronaut
[[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 08:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
:The problem is that some of the people here are half White American and half Mexican American. The Mexican American side of the person is probably mestizo. Some people do not view people who are half White American and half Mestizo are not White Hispanic, take Jessica Alba for an example. In Latin America, we have term for half-White half-Mestizo people, that is Castizo. Castizo is not a word used in the United States. I can tell who is not White Hispanic. Bill Richardson is not White Hispanic because he is quarter white from the USA the rest is mestizo. Ritchie Valens is also Mestizo, and I do believe that Cruz Bustamante is also mestizo. I know that most Chicanos, Mexican Americans who can trace their ancestry to the time when the Southwest United States was part of Mexico, are mainly mestizos. I will try to do research on some of the people, but their should be a consensus in where people who are half-white half-mestizos should be considered as White Hispanics or not. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 05:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
::Consensus has a way of evolving from the fact, often. So if you add some pics, some of them can earn acceptance and stay in the article. Start with Ted Williams, an American hero - he fought in WWII, in addition to being one the all-time greatest on the diamond. He was treated as white by US society; why shouldn't we? Same with Gomez. See what I mean? This is the USA, so rules are a bit different: besides, in Latin America people who are not "simon-pure" in terms of whiteness are treated as white, and call themselves so, all the time and throughout history. This is mentioned in the White Latin American article, as you know. Remember that there are, to be exact, a ''zillion'' non-Hispanic Whites who acknowledge having Native American ancestry, and they're still considered white. So let's not hold White Hispanics to a higher standard. Also, keep in mind that the whole idea of racial purity is a myth, and always was.[http://www.physanth.org/positions/race.html] [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 06:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
::P.S. Lehoiberri, one thing I read about is that Ritchie Valens' manager - who was a non-Hispanic white - did not realize Ritchie was Mexican when they first met, as Ritchie, who was blue-eyed, looked like an Anglo teenager to him. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
:::I still don't believe that ''we'' should take it upon ourselves to label someone as "white" or "non-white" because it's impossible to determine an individual's ethnicity solely based on their skin tone. As I said before, I believe that we should only include individuals who self identify as "white hispanic" because looks can be deceiving. Take Oscar De La Hoya for example, someone suggested we add him because he has lighter skin, however, his parents are both mestizo and if you examine his facial features you'll notice that he has very strong indio features as well. I also question whether we should add Anglo-Hispanics to the list because their white heritage primarily from an Anglo (non Hispanic) background and their Hispanic heritage may come from a primarily Mestizo or Indio background. Labeling someone who is half Anglo and mestizo as "White Hispanic" seems as ridiculous as labeling someone who is half European and half African as "White African". Other Anglo-Hispanics may not even identify with their Hispanic heritage at all and simply refer to themselves as "white" (like Ted Williams).
:::By the way, I do believe that Lefty Gomez belongs on the list, most people actually assumed he was Spanish when he played and he never went out of his way to correct them. Although, it may have been a lot more difficult for him if the public was aware of his Mexican heritage (that's also one of the reasons why Williams never discussed his Mexican heritage).[[User:CubanOne|CubanOne]] ([[User talk:CubanOne|talk]]) 08:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't think we should be deciding who's white, either. I don't do it - I haven't added a single picture or a single name among those mentioned in the article text - but I don't remove the names and pictures others have posted, either. I'm just providing an opinion on how we might proceed on this matter. In the end, the goal should be to have only names and pictures of people who can be clearly sourced as self-identifying as white; but until then, I think we should tolerate the status quo. As we go forward, we should not be assuming a racial purist's, one-droppist stance; having mestizo ancestry should not be an automatic disqualifier. If it's not for say, Chuck Norris or Johnny Depp, why should it be for any white Hispanic? I'm not suggesting that all those names be included; only that among them there are probably many that will prove acceptable to most editors. By the way, if you agree that Williams was seen as white (which is why he, like Gomez and other Hispanics were allowed to play at all), and ''he'' called himself white, then why do you argue against including him? Also, Williams did discuss his ancestry. It's in his 1969 autobiography and he reportedly talked about it with Nomar.[http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/sports/baseball/26latino.html] He just didn't talk about it a whole lot, nor was it reported much. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of adding or removing pictures and names to this article. I was simply offering my opinion as you were. There's a big difference between someone who is one-eighth native american (johnny depp) and someone who's hispanic heritage is primarily of mestizo and indio descent. Hispanics who are only one-eighth indio would also be considered White in most Hispanic communities. You mentioned that Ted Williams and Lefty Gomez were perceived as White by American society, however, there's a difference between the two. Lefty Gomez's parents were both Mexican and he was seen as a White Hispanic (or sometimes mistakenly referred to as "Spanish")while Ted Williams was half Anglo and was seen as an Anglo white. Ted Williams avoided discussing his Mexican background while growing up and during his baseball career, "If I had had my mother's name, there is no doubt I would have run into problems in those days, the prejudices people had in southern California". However, he did acknowledge his Mexican background (albeit reluctantly) in his autobiography as you pointed out. He referred to his mother as "Mexican and French" even though only his great grandparents on his mother's side were of Basque descent (the rest were Mexican). Ted Williams was half Anglo and never referred to himself as Hispanic or Latino and he cut off ties with the Mexican side of his family after his mother's death(although he did pay college tuition for a Mexican American nephew). Most of the people I know who are a mixture of Anglo and Hispanic refer to themselves as "half Irish and half Salvadoran" for example, not "White Hispanic".[[User:CubanOne|CubanOne]] ([[User talk:CubanOne|talk]]) 04:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::No, no, I didn't think you accused me of anything. I volunteered that info to clarify my stance. Ok. I'm reluctant to go too much into 'blood quantum' issues. But don't you think that 3/4 non-Hispanic white and 1/4 Native American people (castizos) are very often seen as white in the US, in our times? I believe so. The other issue you raise is that Williams didn't much publicly acknowledge his Hispanic ancestry, so he shouldn't be included. I think he should be, is spite of his choice ... We'll just have to disagree on that. A good case can be made either way, so I don't necessarily think you're "wrong". [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 06:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
SamEV, I hope you don't get the wrong idea of me, I am not looking at people skin color to claim their are White Hispanic or not. I was trying to look it some these people can trace their ancestry back to Europe or the Middle East. I also know many people who call themselves White Hispanic may have Indigenous or African blood. I knew a Salvadoran who claim to be pure Spanish white, I did not believe him because El Salvador was more than 90% Mestizo, and he had a dark skinned sister. I did not know Ritchie Valens had blue eyes, I saw the movie about him and he was played by a dark-skinned, dark-eyed Filipino. I am trying not to use skin color as a factor for White Hispanics because Middle Easterner, Southern Spaniards, and Southern Italians are dark-skinned and considered White. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 22:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
:Ritchie was played by [[Lou Diamond Philips]], who is (I looked it up, b/c I couldn't remember all) of Hawaiian, Japanese, Spanish, Scotch Irish and Cherokee Indian, and of course, Filipino.[http://www.2g.org/home/news/meettheartist/currentnews-loudiamondphilips.shtml] I think he was great in the movie.
::But it's all right. I do think that race, especially in Latin America, is mostly based on skin color. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 23:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

===Isabel Allende and others...===
These and related articles are an embarrassment to wikipedia for a series of reasons. First, many of the people named in the article may not identify as white per se, but rather as Hispanic or more specifically Mexican-American or Cuban-American etc... Secondly, what is the operative definition of "white" employed in this article? Thirdly, most if not all of the people mentioned have varied and diverse ancestries, a fact which is perhaps concealed by their more or less European appearance; [[Isabel Allende]]'s father, for example, was mestizo both in ancestry and in appearance, she moreover has frequently defined herself as "mestiza," specifically mentioning her [[mapuche]] ancestry. [[Mario Vargas Llosa]] also is more or less European in appearance, yet, he likewise has defined himself as mestizo, or in his more crudely put words, as the son of a [[cholo]], and has commented that he probably has African as well as Native American ancestry. Carlos Fuentes has also acknowledged his Native American ancestry, mentioning in one of his works that he had a [[Yaqui]] grandmother. The truth is that most of the people cited in the article as examples of White Hispanics have, in fact, varied and diverse ancestries, and can be described, at most, as "faux-Spaniards," in the sense of having a romanticized or novelized identity placed upon them by amateur sociologists and encyclopedists. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.137.71.180|216.137.71.180]] ([[User talk:216.137.71.180|talk]]) 22:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I have no reason to dispute what you say about Allende, since I've never heard or read from her what race she considers herself. Nor do I contest that she, and some of the others, may have been added (none by me) based on skin color. But you seem to believe in the [[one drop rule]]. Having "pure" white ancestry cannot be a requirement, because no one could meet it if that were the case, as I already said above. You'd have to question ''everyone'''s right to call himself/herself "white," whether Hispanic or not. It's really that simple.
:The problem of finding US Hispanic people who self-identify as white will continue because, although it is known that half of US Hispanics (an amazing 23 million) identify as white, it seems that few do so in public; other than [[Greg Giraldo]], I can't think of another right now. Perhaps US Hispanics are used to being told they are exclusively a people of color, and few seem to dare to say in public what they write on questionaires. Public figures may be even more reluctant. Also, with the racist and Euro-centric crimes and excesses of the past so universally rejected now, it's more acceptable to express pride in non-white ancestry than white, isn't it? [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 00:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
::Isabel Allende is not Mestiza, she comes from a well-known Chilean family of Basque descent, the Allende Family. The Allendes, like majority of wealthy, prominent families in Latin America, are White. The upper class of Latin America is really racist, and they always want to stay purely White, and when these people get married, they only get married with other Whites. I don't know where this unknown person got its facts about Isabel Allende, but she is not mestiza.[[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 21:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
:::"I am a mestiza. I am the product of the Spaniards and the [[Mapuche]] Indians, so I can understand both currents, both traditions, and I feel that I can write about it, because I feel it inside." Those are Isabel Allende's own words and this is the source[[http://www.democracynow.org/2006/11/17/acclaimed_chilean_novelist_isabel_allende_on]]
::::I never knew she view her self as mestiza, but I am confused. Her father was the cousin of Salvador Allende, and Salvador Allende is white yet her father is mestizo. I am also confused how could someone from a rich prominent family can get married with an indigenous woman if upper class society of Chile, and Latin America in general, looked down in interracial marriage. I am not saying that you are wrong, but there could be a possibility Isabel Allende is, in a lack of better terms, a believer in "white guilt". There are many historical figures in Latin American history who claim they were one with the indigenous and the mestizos, but in fact they were white. A perfect example is Che Guevara, Che was a White Argentinian man with Basque, Spanish, and Irish descent, but he always claimed that he was mestizo even though his family tree debunked his claim. He constantly blamed Latin American Whites for all the problems of Latin America, yet he was white himself. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 21:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe you may be right, Lehoiberri. [[Isabel Allende]] is descendent of elite Chilean families, it's not probable that she has Mapuche forefathers, she is a descendent of kings [[Charlemagne]], [[Hugh Capet]], [[Ferdinand I of León]], [[William I of England]] and [[Afonso I of Portugal]], for example[http://www.geneall.net/H/per_page.php?id=319242]. Of course that does not mean she may not have some Ameridian blood (still... according to US racial rules, in what quantum? Enough not to make her white?). Which one of these was Ameridian, does anyone konw (the question marks do not mean they are not konwn - it means I couldn't find them out; some of the others go much further back several centuries)?
<center>{{ahnentafel-compact5
|style=font-size: 90%; line-height: 110%;
|border=1
|boxstyle=padding-top: 0; padding-bottom: 0;
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|boxstyle_3=background-color: #ffc;
|boxstyle_4=background-color: #bfc;
|boxstyle_5=background-color: #fcb;
|1= 1. '''[[Isabel Allende]]'''
|2= 2. Tomás Allende y Pesse de Villevert (Chile 1875)
|3= 3. Francisca Llona Barros
|4= 4. Tomás Allende Castro
|5= 5. Laura Pesse Guerra
|6= 6. Agustín Llona Cuevas
|7= 7. Isabel Barros Moreira
|8= 8. José Ramón Allende Padín (Chile, 1845)
|9= 9. Eugenia Castro del Fierro (Chile, 1860)
|10= 10. Armand François Pesse de Villevert (France c. 1820)
|11= 11. Nieves Guerra (Chile, 1831)
|12= 12. ?
|13= 13. ?
|14= 14. Luis Barros Méndez
|15= 15. Teresa Moreira Urrejola
|16= 16. José Gregorio Allende Garcés
|17= 17. Salomé Padín Ruiz
|18= 18. ?
|19= 19. ?
|20= 20. Joseph Michel Pesse
|21= 21. Jeanne Puyo
|22= 22. José Segundo Guerra
|23= 23. Florentina Guerra
|24= 24. ?
|25= 25. ?
|26= 26. ?
|27= 27. ?
|28= 28. Juan Agustín Barros Morán
|29= 29. Carmen Méndez Urrejola
|30= 30. Agustín Moreira Merino
|31= 31. Rita Urrejola Unzuela
}}</center>
[[User:The Ogre|The Ogre]] ([[User talk:The Ogre|talk]]) 01:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:Mind you, when Isabel Allende says she is a ''[[mestiza]]'', she may be speaking in a '''cultural''' sense, and not in a genealogical sense. [http://latino.msn.com/especiales/hispanidad/articlepage4.aspx?cp-documentid=1038989 Here (MSN Latino)] she say: "Yo soy mestiza. Yo vengo de la cultura española y de la cultura indígena y el choque de ambas es muy interesante. Es un choque de amor, de odio, de lujuria, de poder, de gran violencia; y de ahí nacemos los latinoamericanos". Which translates as: "I am a mestiza. I came from the Spanish culture and the Indigenous culture and the clash between them is very interesting. It is a clash of love, hatred, power, of enormous violence; and from that we the Latin Americans were born." [[User:The Ogre|The Ogre]] ([[User talk:The Ogre|talk]]) 01:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
::Good research, Ogre. It's quite possible she is indeed talking about culture. Also, Lehoiberri, her Amerindian ancestry - if true, that is - might have come from marriage by a wealthy Allende (or whatever surname) with a mestizo/a, not an Indian. That mestizo/a might have been similarly wealthy, perhaps. In her book, The House of the Spirits, which she said was based on her own ancestors, there's such a marriage. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm the one who started this thread and I let me say I was afraid people would try to interpret her words metaphorically, however so there's no doubt let me quote from another interview she gave: "Y sienten un sentimiento de culpa por la conquista, es algo delicado. Y yo les dije que estos pómulos no son de Ucrania, son mapuche, yo soy mestiza, así es que es fácil escribir sobre lo que resultó de la conquista."[http://internetblog.emol.com/archives/2006/09/isabel_allende.asp]

Which translates to: "And they feel guilty about the conquest, it's a sensitive topic. And I tell them ''these cheek bones are not from the [[Ukraine]], they're mapuche, I'm mestiza'', so it's easy [for me] to write about what came out of the conquest."

So basically she's saying: I look the way I do because I have mapuche ancestors, I have high cheek bones because I have amerindian traits, not Slavic or German.[[User:Nord1|Nord1]] ([[User talk:Nord1|talk]]) 02:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Although Vargas Llosa self-identifies with Europe (he once said "Even if I didn't have Spanish citizen I would still consider myself European) he still doesn't deny that genetically he's mestizo. Here's a link to a picture of his youngest son Gonzalo, whose Amerindian traits are more pronounced than his father's[http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.enexclusiva.com/Revista/articulos/2005-06/images/gonza_gonzabahia2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.enexclusiva.com/Revista/articulos/2005-06/gonzalo.htm&h=364&w=250&sz=23&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=bdGk3jOq9kAN5M:&tbnh=121&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522gonzalo%2Bvargas%2Bllosa%2522%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den] and here [http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.enexclusiva.com/Revista/articulos/2004-06/images/mario_confamilia.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.enexclusiva.com/Revista/articulos/2004-06/mariollosa.htm&h=191&w=300&sz=58&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=qsjGtKcjdr-84M:&tb].

:Just one thing, though: neither Vargas Llosa nor Carlos Fuentes are mentioned or shown in this article. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's correct you don't mention Vargas Llosa or Carlos Fuentes, I mentioned them because many people consider them white but if asked they would describe themselves as mestizos. Also the case of Mario Vargas Llosa is somewhat similar to that of Isabel Allende, in the sense that both the Allende and Llosa names are storied and prestigious. But these facts shouldn't cause us to automatically assume that we know the full genetic history of these families or, more importantly, that we shouldn't make an effort to research what these people have themselves said about their own ethnicity or race, after all, shouldn't they have the last word on the matter? Also, while we're on the subject, Anthony Quinn is mestizo as well, see here[http://books.google.com/books?id=4LAlzSWRQMQC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=anthony+quinn+mestizo&source=web&ots=z6fDYC0X2m&sig=05KcKfApbtZ321SEie9r37rV55c][[User:Nord1|Nord1]] ([[User talk:Nord1|talk]]) 04:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

:I agree. Quinn would likely be classifiable as castizo, actually, I suppose Lehoiberri would tell you, based on the info given in that book. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 05:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

==Census Data for U.S States/Cities==
There is data for the White Hispanic and all other ethnic groups in the U.S states and in some cities ..i found out that san diego city is 11% White Hispanic..for example..
here's an example of in 2006 California which has roughly 50% White of the Hispanic pop. shall we add it to article?..their useful stats i think.

[http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-context=dt&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-CONTEXT=dt&-mt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_P008&-tree_id=306&-redoLog=false&-currentselections=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-geo_id=04000US06&-search_results=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en 2000 Census figures] ,[http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-context=dt&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-CONTEXT=dt&-mt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_P008&-tree_id=4001&-redoLog=false&-all_geo_types=N&-_caller=geoselect&-currentselections=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-geo_id=04000US08&-geo_id=04000US12&-geo_id=04000US34&-geo_id=04000US36&-geo_id=04000US48&-search_results=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en main states with white hispanics] and
[http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-context=dt&-ds_name=ACS_2006_EST_G00_&-CONTEXT=dt&-mt_name=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-tree_id=306&-redoLog=true&-_caller=geoselect&-currentselections=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-geo_id=04000US06&-search_results=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en California: 2006 estimates - Ethnic groups/Hispanic etc..]
{{boxboxtop|Ethnicity Distribution}}
<div class="NavFrame" style="padding:0;border-style:none;">
<div class="NavFrame" style="border-style:none;padding:0;">
<div class="NavHead" style="background:#EDF1F1;text-align:center;text-style:normal">
U.S State distribution</div><div class="NavContent" style="display:none;">
{| class="wikitable" align="right"
|-
!colspan=4|White Hispanic - 2000 Census - <ref>[http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-context=dt&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-CONTEXT=dt&-mt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_P008&-tree_id=306&-redoLog=false&-currentselections=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-geo_id=04000US06&-search_results=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en Ethnicity 2000 census]</ref>
|-----
! State
! Population
! % of State Total
! % of Hispanic pop
|-----
| '''[[California]]'''||4,353,269||??%||
|-----
| '''[[Texas]]'''||3,866,192||??%||
|-----
| '''[[Florida]]'''||2,006,520||??%||
|-----
| '''[[New York]]'''||1,132,708||??%||
|-----
| '''[[Arizona]]'''||599,353||??%||
|-----
| '''[[New Jersey]]'''||547,496||??%||
|-----
| '''[[New Mexico]]'''||400,758||??%||
|-----
| '''[[Colorado]]'''||357,125||??%||
|-----
|}
{{Userboxbottom}}

{{boxboxtop|Ethnicity Distribution}}
<div class="NavFrame" style="padding:0;border-style:none;">
<div class="NavFrame" style="border-style:none;padding:0;">
<div class="NavHead" style="background:#EDF1F1;text-align:center;text-style:normal">
City distribution</div><div class="NavContent" style="display:none;">
{| class="wikitable" align="right"
|-
!colspan=3|White Hispanic - 2000 Census - <ref>[http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-context=dt&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-CONTEXT=dt&-mt_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_P008&-tree_id=4001&-all_geo_types=N&-redoLog=true&-_caller=geoselect&-currentselections=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B03002&-geo_id=16000US0644000&-geo_id=16000US0666000&-search_results=16000US0644000&-format=&-_lang=en Ethnicity City 2000 census]</ref>
|-----
! City
! Population
! % of City Total
|-----
| '''[[Los Angeles]]'''||634,848||??%
|-----
| '''[[San Diego]]'''||132,315||??%
|-----
|}
{{Userboxbottom}}

<small>[[Special:Contributions/81.159.137.28|81.159.137.28]] ([[User talk:81.159.137.28|talk]]) 13:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)</small>

:That looks good, but I think going down to the city level would be overkill. I'd rather add more states, but I think ten is enough to give readers an idea. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 23:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

===J-lo===
Most people think she is mestizo,..but she clearly isnt..possibly Castizo, if anything..since her father is not and her mother is predominanly european etc...[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJwI2dG_JPw here's David lopez recently on YouTube] <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.42.146.155|217.42.146.155]] ([[User talk:217.42.146.155|talk]]) 17:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Yes, Mr Lopez is very white. J-Lo herself actually frequents the tanning booth, because her skin is pale. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
::yes she is very pale she is not mestizo, castizo yes but j lo definetly passes as white in my book you ever see her when she was a fly girl she is pale as heck people mistake tan people as not being white sometimes rember fair skin peole can change there skin color--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 19:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Funny... I always though she wasn't! From were I came from everybody would look at her and, if asked about her ethnicity, would say something like "she looks like a Mexican mixture between european and native american" (probably just saying white and indian...). Of course this is our bias! Just goes to show you - racial definitions and categories vary immensly from place to place! Cheers! [[User:The Ogre|The Ogre]] ([[User talk:The Ogre|talk]]) 22:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
:::When I first saw her, it was on a short-lived TV show circa 1994 (?), and I did notice that here was an unusually light-skinned 'Mexican' (she played a Mexican American, if I'm not mistaken), compared to most (obviously not ''all'') US Latinos in real life and Hollywood. For years I'd seen her as an In Living Color Fly Girl, but I didn't remember her face or name, b/c in fact, I couldn't tell one FG from the next. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 23:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

She's not "White" or Caucasian for that matter, a Castizo is just a lighter skinned Mestizo. --[[User:Pestilencia|Pestilencia]] ([[User talk:Pestilencia|talk]]) 08:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

== Country of Orgin Chart ==

I find it odd that the percentage of Spaniards in lower than the percentage of Cubans. Last time I remember Spaniards were White, so shouldn't that percentage be 100%. That is my opinion. I believe that chart needs fact checking. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 17:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
:The answer is quite simple: not all those who indicate they're "Spanish" actually are. "Spanish" is a term many US Hispanics who are in fact ''not'' Spanish Americans use as their ethnicity (or even as their "race", showing a complete lack of understanding of the concept), especially in the East Coast. Many select non-white categories, hence the 76% for "Spanish". [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 18:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
:I removed the entry for "Spanish". BTW, all US Hispanics used to be categorized under "Spanish origin", which almost certainly contributed to this problem. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 19:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

yes, in the 1980 census its all catagorized as spanish origin..should be spanish speaking.anyway...i think its worth adding the spanish-american population as mainly white ..since now i think the US totals up all of the people with only spanish origin to make up a total white population..for example im sure martin sheen it counted as half Irish ans half spanish.otherwise whats the point of asking to name your 2 main ancestries. I think the US census on who is of Hispanic origin, when i mean Hispanic i mean Spanish(spain)...ive heard quite a few afro cubans on TV call the white cubans 'Hispanic' as if they dont associate themselves as being of Hispanic descent because they are afro-cuban...which in fact is actually the correct meaning at the end of the day....the US census is starting to get more clarity i think...but its the people that need to answer properly also.<small>[[User:Britannic1|Britannic1]] ([[User talk:Britannic1|talk]]) 16:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)</small>

:I think more clarity is coming in the 2010 census, indeed. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 17:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you not think its worth adding anything of the spanish:2 million etc/Spaniard:299 thousand. stats.??..<small>[[User:Britannic1|Britannic1]] ([[User talk:Britannic1|talk]]) 19:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)</small>....some has to be right..
:Yes, on the article itself, not on that table, as I wrote in my last edit summary. But as you can see, it's not easy to get figures that can be relied upon as being truly about people of direct Spanish descent. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

So let me get this right, there are people who call themselves Spanish yet they are not technically Spanish. Now that's odd. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 21:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
:Exactly. Members of all US Hispanic groups do it. It's most common among the younger people (20-somethings and teenagers), who apparently find the word "Hispanic" too difficult, I suppose. But even non-Hispanics do it. I don't watch Jay Leno much, but over the years I've heard him say to some guests who've said they're Latino 'oh, I didn't know you're Spanish'. I heard the same from Rosy O'Donnel, too. On Saturday Night Live Adam Sandler too, in a song he did in one of his skits; etc, etc. It's very common in New York, where all of them are from. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

==Isabel Allende and Cote De Pablo==
Although I would personally not contest her "whiteness", at least insofar as appearance or most recent and predominant ancestry, it has to be said that Isabel Allende herself identifies as a mestiza. "Se define como mestiza, hija de la confluencia india y española, y extranjera."[http://www.analitica.com/va/arte/actualidad/eyp/1137531.asp] "Yo soy mestiza - se enorgullece -, producto de las dos corrientes, y tengo la capacidad de entender al español que fue y conquistó y al indio que fue conquistado" [http://www.abc.es/hemeroteca/historico-19-09-2006/sevilla/Cultura/isabel-allende-cuando-una-mujer-tiene-ambicion-es-una-perra;-cuando-la-tiene-un-hombre-es-un-general_1423365627163.html] So I don't know if it's just to put her as a White Hispanic.

Meanwhile, Cote De Pablo actually is a mestiza. '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] ([[User talk:Al-Andalus|talk]]) 11:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)'''

:We were already debated about Allende, please look on top. Especially when she comes from a prominent White Chilean family. About Cote de Pablo, I don't know if she is mestiza, but she did start her career in Spanish language television, an industry that, to some, is racist toward non-white people. Maybe she is a light skinned mestiza, I don't know? [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

::My apologies. I just scrolled up and saw the detail of the debate. Two important things I would like to point out to those that were forwarding the position that in her case it is still appropriate to have her depicted as an example of the subject matter of an article entitled White Hispanics.

::First and foremost, if she or any other person, does NOT identify as White or whatever else (race, religion, or other thing) and their personal identity is verified (ie. public statements) then she should NOT be put as a representative on an article of that very thing. It's just common sense and decency. I can tell you that as an Australian, the great majority of the Aboriginal population in this country (Australia) is mixed. In fact, of the Aboriginal people I have personally physically met, they all looked mixed or were mixed but looked white. Yet, every one of those people identify as Aboriginal. If a person's personal identity is that of an Aboriginal person, and given that belonging in the Aboriginal community and that Aboriginal identity is based on Aboriginal descent (be it unmixed or mixed), then by that very fact of Aboriginality that person IS an ABORIGINAL! He or she should not be represented as anything else. Perhaps the exception would be in a context of factuality, where one would say "such and such is a mixed-race person of Aboriginal descent and identity". In the present case, of course, it is not Aboriginal identity nor its logical counterpart (Amerindian identity). Instead, it is mestizo (mixed-race) identity. The premise is nonetheless the same.

::Secondly, many of you are barking up the wrong tree when trying to pin point the birth-certificate verified amerindian or mestizo ancestor in her recent or even distant family tree. It is a fact of history that the first generation of mestizas (ie. a female of mixed Spanish and Amerindian descent) born in Latin America 5 centuries ago were not only the first mothers of today's mestizo population, but they were also the genesis the local-born colonial white population of all Latin America (except for Argentina and Uruguay). The colonial white population constitutes the founding population and principal element from which today's white Latin Americans descend. Only Argentina and Uruguay received European immigration of nuclear families that overwhelmed the colonial whites. But even there, the non-colonial majority soon mixed with the whites descended of colonial whites, thus, over 50% of their modern whites have Amerindian female genetic markers anyway.

::The historical parting of the colonial white and mestizo population of Latin America lies in the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the first mestizos. Most of the first generation of mestizos of both genders were illegitimate. Of the few who were recognized by their fathers, all were raised as Spaniards, but it was only the females that went on to marry Spaniards. Few female Spaniards sailed over from Spain, so legitimate mestizas were available mostly to Spaniards only. The few female Spaniards available were available ONLY to Spaniards. Legitimate mestizos competed with Spaniards for legitimate mestizas, but got mostly illegitimate mestizas (bring them up the social ladder with them). From the unions of legitimate mestizas and Spaniards were born what would later (after the white colonial population had consolidated) be called castizos. These would then marry other Spaniards and thus at this point, the genesis of the white colonial population of Latin America was finally consolidated, nobles and all.

::Those mestizos and mestizas that were illegitimate from the very beginning had in that time multiplied amongst themselves. Some male mestizos (from lack of illegitimate mestizas being taken by legitimate mestizos) had taken Amerindian females, and either joined that Amerindian community (and thus taken Spanish genes into Amerindian communities) or bringing the Amerindian female out of hers (bringing more Amerindian genes into his community).

::Isabel Allende, being descended mostly from <u>colonial</u> white Chileans, would have Amerindian descent by the simple fact of how the colonial white populations of all Latin America was established, Chile included. '''[[User:Al-Andalus|Al-Andalus]] ([[User talk:Al-Andalus|talk]]) 10:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)'''

:::You are right that Isabel Allende does not view herself as white, yet in the same time Allende's father's cousin, Salvador Allende, was white. Since she doesn't view herself as white, like you said, she should be removed. But who would take her spot? Before we started to make a big deal about the pictures section, that section was overrepresented by Cubans (as you can read in the first discussion in this page). We need someone who is Hispanic-American, is white (European or Middle Eastern), and not Cuban. How about [[Selma Hayek]], she is Mexican of Spanish and Lebanese descent, and she lives here (but I don't know she has US citizenship though). Does anyone has ideas? [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 16:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

::::I removed Allende, and three others: Bledel because her pic was deleted. I decided to remove two others so the rows would be complete, so I went with Diaz and Ramos because each of their subgroups (Cuban American and Spanish American) has other representatives. When you find two more pics to add, if you want to put these two back, go ahead, Lehoiberri. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 09:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

== Latin America ==

I saw a problem hear.First hispanic america and latin america are two different things.Hispanic america was colonized by Spain and my country that is Brazil was colonized by Portugal the two regions together make the Latin america .Second i saw this "i am a mestiza. I came from the Spanish culture and the Indigenous culture and the clash between them is very interesting. It is a clash of love, hatred, power, of enormous violence; and from that we the Latin Americans were born." about isabel allende.My country that is brazil has a big black population so don't confuse latin america with hispanic america please.Normaylly here in brazil we say that we have many different kinds of people descent Brazil has the largest population of Italian origin outside of Italy, with over 25 million Italian Brazilians, the largest Japanese population outside of Japan, with 1.6 million Japanese Brazilians, as well the second largest German population outside of Germany, with 12 million German Brazilians(I got this in the page of Brazil). [[User:FontesAugusto|FontesAugusto]] ([[User talk:FontesAugusto|talk]]) 01:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

:This article is about Hispanics who are also white living in the United States, and it excludes Brazilians since they are not Hispanics, they are Lusitanics. So I don't know what is your problem of this article. This has nothing to do with Latin America. There is an article for [[White Latin American]]s. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 19:35, 17 March 2008 (UTC)



== Definition of "white" please ?!?!? ==

This article is extremely subjective and unscientific as it does not give specific parameters for the definition of "white". It does not take into account the complex implications of labeling someone part of a single race. It also does not take into account that racial definitions and census data vary between different Latin American countries. What may be considered white in Venezuela may not be considered white in Argentina. Some countries determine race by appearance, thus you may have 3 siblings all being classified as different races.

Take note of the following......

WHITE AMERICANS vs. "WHITE" HISPANICS---
DNA has shown that White (Anglo) Americans have almost entirely white ancestry, about 95% of their DNA is white with small amounts of Native American, African and Asian ancestry. Light skinned (white) Hispanics have an average of 45%-65% European ancestry. There is a significant amount of non-white ancestry (black and/or Indian depending on the country). Genetically it is possible for someone to look white with as little as 40-50% white, depending on the other admixtures.

COLOR WITHIN FAMILIES---
In white (Anglo) American families all of the immediate family members are usually white. In Hispanic families the case is quite different. It is common for a "white" Hispanics to have siblings that are not white but look more African or Native American. This is due to heavy interracial admixture throughout the centuries. Although a "white" Hispanic may have white skin (phenotype), he or she is carrying a much larger amount of non-white genetic material (genotype) than his Anglo-American counterpart. Because "white" Hispanics are actually of very mixed ancestry, it is entirely possible for two "white" Hispanics to have a child who is black or Native American in appearance. This is not the case for Anglos. Two white Americans (Anglos) usually have white children. Furthermore, many Hispanics that have white skin may have non-European features, this is especially true in Mexico.

RACISM AND CLASSISM---
Racism and bias play a role in these definitions. Many people have an opinion one way or another. Those Hipanics who want to identify with being white, down play their non-white ancestry, they may keep their black grandma in the closet or not introduce their Maya looking grandpa to their friends. Hispanics who would rather not identify with being white do the same with their white ancestors. However, the majority of Hispanics in the U.S. consider Hispanic to be their race and are fully aware that they are a result of an admixture of European, African and/or Native American blood. Although term Hispanic has not traditionally been used as a race in most Latin American countries it is slowly falling into use in Mexico, Venezuela, the Dominican Republic and other countries probably due to the American influence. In many places in Latin America, nationality and race are one. For example, in Mexico, most people would consider their race (La Raza) to be Mexican

HISPANIC AS A RACIAL IDENTITY---
Although the four anthropogical races are white, black, Asian and Native American, there must be further debate and scientific research on whether "Hispanic or Latino" fits any or all of the criteria of a race and whether that criteria needs to be changed. What criteria were used to establish white, black, Asian and Native American as the four anthropological races when there are obvious inconsistencies. For example both Pakistanis and Chinese are classified as Asians yet they are quite different, Middle Easterners come in a variety of skin tones yet many classify them as Caucasian and Native Americans who originally came from Asia but are not considered Asian. Emphasis also needs to be placed on "self identification" as perceived race can depend on the individual's identification with a group.

EXISTENCE OF PURE WHITE HISPANICS---
There may be countries such as Uruguay or Argentina where the vast majority of the population is mainly of European ancestry. There also may be small pockets of people with pure European ancestry like the German areas of Brazil or the elites in some capitals. But these are exceptions and not the norm. And even in those cases, the non-white ancestry of those "white" Hispanics is significantly higher than the non-white ancestry of Anglo Americans in the U.S.

Please give a specific definition of "white" Hispanic whether it is the proportion of European blood vs. non-European blood within the individual or his or her own self identity. Thanks. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dm2850|Dm2850]] ([[User talk:Dm2850|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dm2850|contribs]]) 02:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Hello, Dm2850. The second sentence defines White, specifically, White American. It is, as stated, that given by the U.S. Census Bureau, which pertains to self-identity. Beyond that, it is outside this article's scope to debate the definition(s) of white, and even less so the other races and the implications of racial labels. Debate about the usage of the labels "Hispanic" and "Latino" doesn't belong here, either. All these have their own articles, q.v.
:If you'd like, and if you can source it, you can add info on admixture, racism and classism. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
::You cannot get a percentage of someone's "race" from DNA. You can test someone's Y-DNA (paternal) and also his MtDNA (mitochondrial/maternal). This will only tell you where the male line originiated from and where the female line originated from, so you cannot say somone has X% of "European" ancestry. You can say X% of Europeans have Y-DNA or MtDNA from X historical region. Race pretty much cannot solely be determined by testing DNA and is more of a social contruct based on physical features as well as perceptions. Generally, however, white/caucasian includes a broad range of people historically from Europe. [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 07:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

==Philip of Calderon (aka [[Felipe Calderon]])==

I've got news for you folks, [[Felipe Calderon]] is not white, not even self-identifed. He's mestizo. Another mis...take. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.221.92.223|72.221.92.223]] ([[User talk:72.221.92.223|talk]]) 23:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Let me clarify what this article is about to people like you who don't like to read. This ARTICLE is about HISPANIC AMERICANS (HISPANICS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES) who are also WHITE because of their ANCESTRY! FELIPE CALDERON IS NOT HISPANIC AMERICAN!! Please take it to talk page of [[White Latin American]]. And also, please read well next time before you post, Thank you. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 18:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Felipe Calderon is a Hispanic American. He is Hispanic and he is American. [[Special:Contributions/67.160.169.14|67.160.169.14]] ([[User talk:67.160.169.14|talk]]) 23:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::I shall echo what [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] said: this article is about Hispanic and Latino Americans, as in Hispanics in the United States, not Latin Americans. Last time I checked Felipe Calderon was a Mexican still living in Mexico; therefore, he is not American. It's a moot point whether he's white or not (for this particular article at least). [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 23:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Felipe Calderon is a Hispanic American; and an American living in Latinoamerica, therefore he fits both descriptions under the given title. Perhaps this article needs a better title. [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]])
04:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry, but the article is clearly on white Hispanics and Latinos in the United States. There's no better title for this in the English language.--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 18:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

How about "white Hispanics and Latinos in the United States" as you just suggested? That's an unambiguous title. [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 21:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry, but in the English language when the word "America" and "American" is applied to the United States. Because in the Spanish Language "America" and "American" refer to both North and South America, why should English Wikipedia fall under the standards of the Spanish Language. Actually, main other languages refer "America" to the United States, what I know French, German, Italian, Russian, and Japanese refer "America" as the US. This one thing I never understood of the Spanish Language. English Wikipedia follows English language standards. Also, Hispanics in the US also refer "America" and "American" to the United States, not to all of North and South America. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 21:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::I accept your apology. I'm not going to start another discussion on the word American. The fact that Hispanic and Latinoamerican have specific meanings already tied to Spain and "the Americas" makes the title ambiguous and this case, misleading.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861727807/hispanic.html

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/latinamerican?view=uk

http://www.askoxford.com/languages/es/toi_las/?view=uk

http://www.international.ucla.edu/lac/publications/las.asp

http://books.google.com/books?id=zQqtgpqvHL0C&pg=PR20&lpg=PR20&dq=%22mexicans+are+americans%22&source=web&ots=d0BhkYu2Ag&sig=auR8b5RYUdDt-JNuD0yI1FmhgwY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

[[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 22:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Deepstratagem, shouldn't you get a Wikipedia-wide agreement on this, so that all U.S. ethnic group articles get similarly renamed? Thus, "Italian American" -> "Italians in the United States"? The problem with your proposal is it will have the effect of saddling Hispanic and Latino Americans with a title that leaves doubt as to their Americanness (U.S.-ness, we might say). The present title is inclusive, yours is not. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 23:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Actually, if Felipe Calderón is not included as a white Hispanic and Latinoamerican, then the article is not inclusive. Since being Hispanic has little to do with nationality, and being Latin American has nothing to with race, by definition, there is no "saddling". On the other hand, being Italian has to do with nationality. The current title is being used as a neologism and it is currently both misleading and incorrectly exclusive.

::::http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/2008/10/09/2008-10-09_us_loses_popularity_in_latin_america_.html<br />
::::Latin America's more than 550 million people now "have every reason to view the U.S. as a banana republic," says analyst Michael Shifter of the Inter-American Dialogue think tank in Washington. "U.S. lectures to ''Latin Americans'' about excess greed and lack of accountability have long rung hollow, but today they sound even more ridiculous."

::::http://www.cubanews.ain.cu/2008/1006solidaridad.htm<br />
::::'''''Latin Americans'' in Australia Express Solidarity with Cuba'''

::::http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2008/oct/10/festivals

::::http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=756975<br />
::::But some poor ''Latin Americans'' say they have it so bad, the crisis can't make their lives worse. "This only makes people who have money nervous," 60-year-old Jose Martinez said with a shrug outside a money-changing business in Mexico City. "I'm poor, so what?"

::::http://www.pokernews.com/news/2008/10/pokerstars-lapt-season-two-announced.htm<br />
::::It will be the best time for ''Latin Americans'', as well as North Americans, Europeans and players from across the globe to travel to these exotic destinations for live high-stakes championship poker."

::::http://www.sindhtoday.net/world/25668.htm<br />
::::'''Crime-weary ''Latin Americans'' lose faith in state mechanism'''
::::The survey was carried out among 10,000 people over the age of 14 in several cities of Colombia, Brazil and Mexico, said Mockus, who was accompanied by Mexico City Mayor Marcelo Ebrard.

::::Verifiability is important. [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 00:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This article starts out with “''A '''White Hispanic''' or '''White Latino''' is a United States citizen or resident whose is classified as a White American of Hispanic or Latino descent.''” It even states above that the following: ''For the white population of Latin America, see [[White Latin American]]''. The scope of this article is specifically for Americans (citizens of the U.S.), not Latin Americans. [[White Latin American]]s have an entire article. It seems that you already understand the scope of the article but that you just dispute the terminology used in the English language. [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 01:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

:A "White Hispanic" is not a U.S. citizen and neither is a "White Latino". Who invented these narrow definitions? [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 08:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

:Deepstratagem, perhaps I used the wrong word. By "inclusive" I meant that this title treats Hispanic and Latino Americans like Americans; i.e. it is inclusive in the sense of including them as Americans. Your title sends a loud signal that they somehow are to be seen as non- or un-American, because of that missing word ("American") in their demonym. Why can't you just accept the fact that there are two definitions for this word? [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 01:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

::"Your title sends a loud signal that they somehow are to be seen as non- or un-American, because of that missing word ("American") in their demonym." Not any more than your article sends a strong signal that White Latinoamericans and White Hispanics only exist in the United States.
"Why can't you just accept the fact that there are two definitions for this word?" I can. Why can't you? [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 08:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:::"''...your article sends a strong signal that White Latinoamericans and White Hispanics only exist in the United States.''""
:::I changed the lead paragraph to make it even more purely descriptive. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 00:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Like I said before Deepstratagem, English Wikipedia follows English Language standards. Anyways, if you go around the world and ask anyone who are the Americans, majority will say Americans are people who are citizens of the United States. I remember watching the news, the story was about the Arab world's view of United States, and I remember the people referred the US as America. It is fact around the world (execpt Latin America and the Iberian Peninsula) that America=United States.
:Deepstratagem, let me get this straight, when you watch in the news about the crazy President of Iran (I don't want to spell his name) shouts "Death to America", do you think he is also talking about Canada, Latin America, the Caribbeans, too? [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 17:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

::First of all, I don't think you are all that qualified to say what Hispanic means, since you think you don't look like one.
::"English Wikipedia follows English Language standards." Right. Not neologisms. This article creates a narrow and misleading category. It's as if I decide to write an article titled ''Black Francophone and [[French Americans]]''. If the article only refers to people from the United States, it's too narrow because it neglects a lot of people who identify as one or the other, and furthermore, there is no reason to clump a skin color/cultural-linguistic identity with two other ambiguous terms like Latino and American, or Latino American.

::In other words, this is misleading at more than one level. This article, by focusing on a particular arbitrary combination is prescriptive and not descriptive. In fact, outside of Wikipedia clones, this ad hoc ethnic combination is non-existent. I acknowledge that there are white Hispanic people, I am one of them; I even acknowledge that there are US citizens who are white and Hispanic; I am one of them, too. In fact, most Hispanic people by ancestry are white. However, I do not consider myself Latino; but rather Latin-American which is geographical relation, and not a racial one. I am of the opinion that anybody who calls oneself "Latino" has never been to Latin America or speaks Spanish, which defeats the very intent of using the word.

::So as you can see, I'm not arguing about the word "American", which I am in more than one way (independent of being a U.S. citizen, but also because of), but I'm arguing about the misuse and ambiguous juxtaposition of all these ambiguous terms, to mean something so narrow that there is no preexisting literature outside of Wikipedia to support this fabrication.

::What's next? An article titled ''White Indians and Pacific Australians''? [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 18:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

:::"First of all, I don't think you are all that qualified to say what Hispanic means, since you think you don't look like one." Wow, I applaud you for going personal. Don't tell me you are part of the "Argentines are not Hispanic" persuasion, Something I heard alot from both other Hispanics and bigoted Argentines. Then maybe I should disqualify you out of this topic since Spanish is your maternal Language, and this is English Wikipedia.
:::You said that you weren't arguing about the word "American" but clearly looking at your first post in this talk page, you were claiming that Felipe Calderon is American. Now you are changing the subject to words Latino and Hispanic. Stop being erratic.
:::This article is about a group of people who list themselves in the US census as both White and Hispanic/Latino. This is why this article is called "White Hispanic and Latino American". Because you don't like the word Latino, the US government uses it to classify people who are from Spain and Latin America or people who are descendants of those countries. I know there used to be a radio station where I live that played reggeton (I don't know how to spell it), and there slogan was "Latino and Proud". Latino is a common word in the United States, especially with the American-born English-speaking Hispanics. This is why the government uses both Hispanic and Latino. Hispanic and Latino are mainly interchangeable, execpt the word Latino includes Brazilians while Hispanic excludes them (Hispanic comes from the old Roman name of Spain, Hispania).
:::Since you have issues with this article, I clearly want to know if you have issues with [[Black Hispanic and Latino Americans]] article, too? [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 19:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Deepstratagem, you write: "''However, I do not consider myself Latino''"
::::Well, it so happens that if you live in the U.S. that is precisely how you are classified. In fact, if you participated in the last census, "Latino" may be how you identified yourself! Or did you actually answer 'No, not Hispanic/Spanish/Latino'? [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 00:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I specifically wrote 'yes, other' Hispanic/Mexican and Spanish/English/German for ancestry. [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 01:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::::"Don't tell me you are part of the 'Argentines are not Hispanic' persuasion, Something I heard alot from both other Hispanics and bigoted Argentines." I really don't know what that means in this context or its relevance. I simply question your understanding of ''Hispanic'' since you think there's a specific look that's exclusive with being white.
::::"Then maybe I should disqualify you out of this topic since Spanish is your maternal Language, and this is English Wikipedia." English and Spanish are my maternal languages, learned concurrently.
::::"You said that you weren't arguing about the word "American" but clearly looking at your first post in this talk page, you were claiming that Felipe Calderon is American."

::::<blockquote>Felipe Calderon is a Hispanic American; and an American living in Latinoamerica</blockquote>

::::"Now you are changing the subject to words Latino and Hispanic. Stop being erratic." The words were already there in my initial statement. It's deceptive to misrepresent what I actually said. Not to mention, Latino is a corrupted abbreviation of Latino American.

"This article is about a group of people who list themselves in the US census as both White and Hispanic/Latino." That may be the case, but the title can have many meanings. Besides, Hispanic and Latino can be mutually exclusive, and <s>I haven't seen that addressed in the 15 or so articles created by the "Latino" Wikiproject.
</s>
"I know there used to be a radio station where I live that played reggeton (I don't know how to spell it), and there slogan was 'Latino and Proud'. Latino is a common word in the United States, especially with the American-born English-speaking Hispanics." Latino is common amongst Chicanos and has connotations of political identity. That's one of the reasons why the title is so terrible; the ambiguous terms can be mutually exclusive or unrelated in more than one way.

"This is why the government uses both Hispanic and Latino. Hispanic and Latino are mainly interchangeable". Yes, to ignorant people who think these are racial terms. Another reason why it's a terrible title.

===3 hours later===

"Since you have issues with this article, I clearly want to know if you have issues with [[Black Hispanic and Latino Americans]] article, too?"
I spent over 3 hours going over both articles and realized my real objection is that people use "Hispanic" and "Latino" as racial terms, but both articles clearly state neither is an indication of race, and they are pretty good if you can accept American has multiple meanings, so I guess the only remaining objection is that Latino is often associated with Chicano Nationalism and racial politics. But that's irrelevant to our current discussion and can be addressed if it comes up. My sincere apologies for the personal attacks. If anyone wants to pursue this further, or tear me apart, feel free to visit my talk page. [[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 00:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

== Let's replace most of these entertainers ==

Let's each replace one of these images with that of someone in a profession other than acting, singing, or modeling, whenever we can. Little by little we'll get it done. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 20:15, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

:This article is a joke, Anthony Quinn is NOT white. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.181.56.140|70.181.56.140]] ([[User talk:70.181.56.140|talk]]) 19:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Although calling the article a joke isn't constructive at all, I did check Anthony Quinn's page, and it states his mother was of Aztec ancestry. His grandfather on his father's side was Irish, but should he still be included? [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 00:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::I myself wouldn't have added him, and would not protest his replacement. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 01:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone object to me removing it right away without replacing it yet? If we agree that it might not be the the most appropriate, I think it would be best to just remove it, but I don't have any ideas on what to replace it with. [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 02:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Hmm... I'm not sure if you should, for style reasons, as it would leave a hole. But why don't you try and find a replacement at [[List of Mexican Americans]] (I started a topic and named names above), or [[List of Hispanic and Latino Americans]], in case you can't find a Mexican American? [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 02:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

i agree anthony quinn is not white hispanic his mother is of 100% aztec ancestry which makes him half white and half native american so he belongs in the mestizo article not here--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 03:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:I went ahead and removed his picture. I didn't know what picture could replace him, so feel free to add someone if you think another one needs to be there. [[User:Kman543210|Kman543210]] ([[User talk:Kman543210|talk]]) 03:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

i guess we could use this chance to find a non entertainer white hispanic for quinn's spot--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 03:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Music to my ears. Or eyes, rather. :) [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 03:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

im trying to look for somebody non entertainer american from Uruguay decent because they are not represented on here or the white latin american page i think, and they have a very large white majority of 88% they are only second in that deptpartment to agentina so there has got to be a noteable white hispanic with roots from that country--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 04:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Check out [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_of_Uruguay Commons' Uruguay category].
:But there is an Uruguayan model in [[White Latin American]].
[[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:P.S. If there are only entertainers available for some Hispanic groups, then all the entertainer pics will have to come from those groups, while all the non-entertainers will be from the other groups. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

sorry my mistake there is a uruguyan desent in the white latin american article i see about her very sad story--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 05:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I see SamEV want to change the images in this page. I disagree with this because it is hard to find White Hispanics who are not in the field of entertainment. Let me remind you first that this page has to do with Hispanics in the United States so I don't know why are you all mentioning Uruguay. Let me go back to my reason of opposing this change. Most White Hispanics that are not in the entertainment field are predominantly Cubans. There was agruments when this page use to be filled with Cubans, I too did not like that overrepresentation of Cubans. I say just leave this page as is. Since it was I who place most of the images in the "Notable White Hispanic" section, it was difficult to find White Hispanics from separate nationalities. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 18:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

no you have misunderstood what i have said i said i would like to see a noteable uruguyan-american somebody with roots from there and i thought there was not one on the white latin american but samev has pointed out there is one ,i just thought it important that country be represented being it has almost 90% white population,But i agree with you with cubans it hard because cubans have very deep roots in america--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Lehoi, ''`no, because it's difficult`'' is not really a valid reason to oppose diversifying these pictures. You can opt out of the effort if you want (please don't). Besides, there's no rush; it's just something we should undertake going forward - it doesn't have to be done this month or this season (summer). My suggestion was and is that whenever we happen to come across a non-entertainer white Hispanic's image, we should add it here. That's all. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 21:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

== Rita Moreno? ==

Really? [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 01:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

:i dont get it--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 15:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::I mean, do we really have evidence of her self-ID, ancestry, or classification to put her in this article? She's in the gallery. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 00:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

i mean she looks like an everyday white person but as far as i know there is no source for her so im not going to argue to keep her in the gallery--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 03:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:The reason I put her there because I was having problem with an anon who placed her and removed Julie Gonzalo (before her picture was deleted in Commons) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&diff=201564160&oldid=201372614]. I put her and other three people to give a balance in the gallery [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&diff=206928517&oldid=206908565].
:If you can find anyone better to replace her, I have no problems with that. But looking in Moreno's Filmography, she was cast in White roles. [[User:Lehoiberri|Lehoiberri]] ([[User talk:Lehoiberri|talk]]) 03:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::I'm going to start verifying these people starting tomorrow. Either of you want to help? I'll start with Rita Moreno. I'll do some searches for info about her self-ID or about her ancestry. I propose a one-week time limit, after which we'll keep only the people we've verified, but only if there's enough for at least one row (i.e. 4 pictures). If we don't have enough, we eliminate the gallery until we have enough verified people. If either of you or anyone else wants to help me, just choose a name and post it here. And whether you're for or against, let me know. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

i mean i get what your saying and you are right but i believe we will run into problems trying to verify everybody's ancestry(for a matter of fact verifying anybody's ancestry regardless ethnic background is hard) and even harder to catch people proclaiming they are white the only real way is to come to a consenusus on phenotype by editors, i don't think people could challenge people like christina aguilera or alexis bledel being white with a straight face but if not that get rid of pics all together and there would be no problems with this--[[User:Wikiscribe|Wikiscribe]] ([[User talk:Wikiscribe|talk]]) 04:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:Yeah, self-ID is the difficult one to come by. But we read about people's ancestry fairly often. For example, a source might say '[[Joseph A. Unanue]] was Puerto Rican. His father was a Basque immigrant, and his mother was the daughter of Spanish immigrants'. But I don't want to use his picture here b/c he's already in [[Hispanic and Latino Americans]] and [[Spanish American]]. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 04:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:Another example: you've probably read that [[Martin Sheen]] is of Irish and Spanish parentage. If that's in a reliable source, that's all we need to verify him. Both are categorized as European/Caucasian/White ethnicities. [[User:SamEV|SamEV]] ([[User talk:SamEV|talk]]) 05:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

== In the United States... ==

I agree with the first part of this edit by [[User:M5891|M5891]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&diff=prev&oldid=244704260 In the United States...]

The [[Black Hispanic and Latino Americans]] article starts the same way and sets the tone for the page, whereas ''Latino Americans'' in the title, while legitimate, has the potential to be confused as ''Latin Americans''.

[[User:Deepstratagem|Deepstratagem]] ([[User talk:Deepstratagem|talk]]) 00:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

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