Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 14 and User talk:98.208.42.10: Difference between pages

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 02:29, 14 October 2008

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to Saber-toothed cat. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Piano non troppo (talk) 02:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

October 2008

Please do not vandalize pages, as you did with this edit to Saber-toothed cat. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing. Soliloquial^talk 02:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{talkarchivenav}}
+[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia{{#if:Saber-toothed cat|, as you did to [[:Saber-toothed cat]]}}. Your edits appear to constitute [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]] and have been [[Help:Reverting|reverted]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}}<!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --> [[User:Piano non troppo|Piano non troppo]] ([[User talk:Piano non troppo|talk]]) 02:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
-== Intro "all Jewish denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism" ==
+== October 2008 ==
-I find changing the conclusion of the source to be that all Jewish denominations view MJ as Christianity, skews the intent of the paragraph concerning the MJ position on their Jewish status. Changing the conclusion that MJ is not seen as Jewish by other Jewish denominations, to a DIFFERENT conclusion that MJ is seen by other Jewish denomns as "Christian" seem to me to be POV pushing in the form that the reader is led to believe as "fact" that "if one groups considers MJ to be Christian, then OF COURSE it's certainly not Jewish." Instead the intent of the paragraph is communicated just fine in that the Jewish status of MJ is disputed by all Jewish denomns (the removal of "other" Jewish denoms being the compromise). Now someone wants to take it a step further beyond this concession and now wants to post that all Jewish denoms consider MJ to be Christianity... skewing the original intent of the paragraph, forcing an unwritten conclusion (that if one is Christian that one is not Jewish), and almost smacks of being a disclaimer. To keep balance, I highly suggest not changing this intro without consensus, or else put that information in the appropriate Jewish objections section of the article. [[User:Inigmatus|inigmatus]] ([[User talk:Inigmatus|talk]]) 18:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
+[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px]] Please do not vandalize pages, as you did with <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber-toothed+cat?diff=245137578 this edit]</span> to [[:Saber-toothed cat]]. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing. <!-- Template:uw-huggle3 --> [[User:Soliloquial|Soliloquial]]<sup>[[User talk:Soliloquial|talk]]</sup> 02:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
-:While I find it interesting that you weren't concerned about modifications to the header by Carlaude, I'm willing to stick with this wording.  But consensus works in both directions, Inigmatus.  Not just the one that suits MJs. -[[User:LisaLiel|LisaLiel]] ([[User talk:LisaLiel|talk]]) 18:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
-:Agreed. Sorry Lisa, I haven't been more active. I just saw the recent change only, and not the ones from before. I had posted far above concerning the tags, that they arent necessary. I didn't realize some POV pushing has been engaged in. I certainly value your guys input as well as MJs. This article needs it. I'll see what I can do to help clean up the article and talk to some of the other editors. :)  [[User:Inigmatus|inigmatus]] ([[User talk:Inigmatus|talk]]) 18:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
-::I think what the three of us agree on is that the header, as it has stood (''Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish. However, Jews of all denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Many Christians consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.''), is indeed one of consensus. This I have tried to state clearly to [[User:Carlaude|Carlaude]], who started this ball rolling again. I made the mistake of trying to re-word Carlaude's recent edit, instead of simply reverting (again). I hope we can keep the header '''as is''' and that there is no need for dispute resolution, etc., which is what Carlaude seeks. Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 18:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
-::Sorry, I disagree here. "All Jewish denominations..." carries the clear implication that Wikipedia considers ''as a matter of fact'' that MJ is not Jewish. That's not a position Wikipedia should be endorsing. There are good alternative wordings that I suggested above. I think dispute resolution might be a good idea. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 20:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::You've missed the point of our consensus - which is 'balance', and that includes the input of MJ [[User:Inigmatus|inigmatus]]. If you feel you must go to DR, you might be there alone. Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 23:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::I'm not going to push the point about DR, but I still thing there are less-biased versions than what we have now. See what I suggested on May 9th. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 19:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::I mean this with all due respect, [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] - I believe the other users did have a chance to review your options. However, what users such as [[User:LisaLiel|LisaLiel]] and [[User:Inigmatus|inigmatus]] pointed out is that a lot of work and back & forth editing went into finding a balance in the overall article. To change the wording now would be to tip that in one direction of POV over another. [[User:Inigmatus|inigmatus]], a professed MJ, did the bulk of writing and editing of the article and he was satisfied with the balance created by all of us without a single user resorting to an 'edit war'. You might recall there was one user who came aboard with the POV notice, all guns blazing, and then he/she ceased - and calm came once again.  Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 20:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::Is it accepted that the statement "All Jewish denominations..." is biased towards the view of non-Messianic Jews, but that this is balanced by other statements which are biased in favour of MJ? If so, then I think that's aiming too low for Wikipedia. We should be aiming to be neutral throughout. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 17:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::::What is fact is that a) MJs consider themselves Jewish and b) all Jewish denominations (all of established Judaism, from the most liberal to the most traditional) does not consider MJs as being a part of Judaism because, for 2000 years, believers in Christ are considered members of another religion. Some users were complaining that the very use of the word 'Judaism' in the title of MJ was itself misleading and false, but compromises from either side avoided this. The MJs understand, even if they don't themselves agree, that they are not considered a part of Judaism by Jewish people or established Jewish religion - even the yellow pages. Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 17:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::::I'm afraid I see above the subtle assumption that the view of MJ as "not Jewish" is the correct and factual one, not as the opinion of of a group of people. You write "What is fact is that...all Jewish denominations ... does not consider MJs as being a part of Judaism". That is true only if you already consider it a ''fact'' that MJ is not a Jewish denomination, and that it's views on the subject don't therefore count.
-:::::I understand that some people believe MJ to be anti-semitic and deceitful and I have no problem with recording the fact of that belief. But should we really shift the factual balance of this article to accommodate those views? I don't think so. Some people consider Judaism itself to be demonic and evil - should we change what is recorded as fact in the [[Judaism]] article in the spirit of compromise with those people? I would say strongly ''no''. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 15:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::::You're reading far more into my posting than is there, [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]]. I'm not stating whether MJ is Christian, Jewish or antisemitic - I am pointing to the '''references''' which state that all Jewish denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be 'Judaism'. The explanations at these references are clear that believers in Jesus are members of another religion, not Judaism. The views of MJ ''do'' count, which is why they are able to self-identify, and this is reflected in the article. Your comparison of all of contemporary Judaism on the one hand with ''some people consider Judaism itself to be demonic and evil'' on the other, I can't find the words to address... [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 16:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::::If MJ is Jewish then it is not true that all Jewish denominations consider MJ to be Christian - because MJ consider themselves to be Jewish. By saying "all Jewish denominations..." you are implying that MJ is not one of them. My apologies for the comparison; it was intended to show what can happen if you try to change what is reported as fact to accommodate the views of those who seem to be opposed to a group. If we can agree that is a bad idea then I'll say no more. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 18:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
-::::::OK, maybe the time has come to stop this conversation. I think the current wording is the best that is likely to be achieved at the current time, and it's already better than the last time I had this conversation, several years ago. Maybe in a few years we'll be able to improve it again. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] ([[User talk:DJ Clayworth|talk]]) 18:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::'''Thank you'''. I don't believe that anyone is being difficult because it appears there are editors with different views and mindsets, working together. We're doing what we can to keep the article as correct and neutral as possible. Best, [[User:A Sniper|A Sniper]] ([[User talk:A Sniper|talk]]) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)