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==More dish information==
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It would be good if this time around, we could include a little information for each episode as to what the winning dish actually '''was''' and any conflicts that are reported in [[WP:V|published]], [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. I don't want us turning WP into a fan site, but at the same time, I've found past seasons' articles to be fairly uninformative beyond a simple "who won, who lost" type summary. [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 03:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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== Table Formatting ==
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Please keep all contestants in alphabetical order, then in order from elimination. The way it looks now looks horrible. I am changing it to the above way again. [[User:Tinkleheimer|Tinkleheimer]] 23:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
| archive = Talk:Top Chef: Miami/Archive %(counter)d

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:Jumping in here to say that Tinkleheimer's approach is correct for nearly every other reality TV show '''when it is in progress'''; alpha order for remaining players, and eliminated players in reverse order. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 16:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
| maxarchivesize = 125K

| archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}}
:We need to come to a consensus about the order. In every other in-progress reality TV show I've helped edit, the default has been to put remaining players in alphabetical order to show no bias as to who is left. Exceptions have only been in The Amazing Race where there is a ranking for each team at the end of the show, and for Pirate Master, where there are three players that have power going into the next show. Even if in the past during the showing of Top Chef shows, the order of this table was kept in order of performance, I would argue that once the elimination challenge is over and a loser selected, no contestant is above any other contestant going into the next show, and thus they are all back on equal footing for the start of the next challenge, and thus the alphabetical order makes the most sense, both from a non-biased stand-point as well as maintainability (as you only have to cut&paste one row to the end to "eliminate" a player). --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 22:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
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::I don't know how to fix it, but the table doesn't look quite right any more. There shouldn't be a column for the fifth episode yet, and the "Comments" portion seems to be in the wrong place.[[User:Pascotimes|Roger]] 21:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
}}

== Background stories to watch for ==

We can't use most blogs or message boards as [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] — chief exception being well-known blogs of famous people (but NOT the comments in response) — but it may be worthwhile to keep an eye out for any published sources that remark on the outcry from many fans who argued that "barbecue" was not defined clearly for the "Sunny Delights" episode. I'm seeing lots of argument in the comments on the Bravo blogs, to the effect of "here's what barbecue's official definition is, and ''none'' of the dishes meet that definition, so ..." and so forth. That could end up in citable sources, in which case it might be useful for the article. [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 04:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:I believe that at least one of the show staff's blogs identified that this really wasn't a true "barbecue" (Lee Ann's, maybe?), but even so, I would call this a footnote in that for purposes of time and setup, this was more "grilling" and not a classical "bbq". --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 04:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::True, but I'm talking more about the fact that many people are responding to the fact that the judges' justification for eliminating Birdsong was that she did not meet the "barbecue" part of "upscale barbecue." So I was simply saying we should watch to see if these complaints start surfacing in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 02:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
:::What I've done is added a footnote at that point about this, and linked to Tom C's blog at Bravo TV and from the TWOP recap that notes the issues with the word. If you have any other reviews/critiques of this work from such sources, go ahead and add them in. But a footnote is exactly what this should be unless it turns into a major scandal (yea, right!) --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 14:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Sounds good to me — I wasn't even sure if the article should mention it yet at all, as there's always going to be people quibbling with the logic of the judges' choices over something. [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 15:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::After reading various discussions on it, it's not "important" but it is worth a footnote to note that the term was stretch from regional meanings for the purposes of a reference article on WP. That is, if I had not seen this show or read forums/articles about it, and just used WP to learn what they did, the [[barbecue]] page does not nail this down due to the vast differences. Adding the footnote makes the task very specific to [[grilling]].--[[User:Masem|Masem]] 15:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


i don't know how to fix the table but shouldn't lia and hung's places in the tabel be changed. it says that hung was eliminated in the latin food challenge and that lia was in the high part of the most recent episode.

== Too many colors on the table ==

I think trying to represent both Quickfire and Elimination winners and losers through colors on the table is getting too out of hand; I'm not color-blind, but the table is becoming strongly dependent on the colors to understand the meaning.

My suggestion is to create an additional row and list the QF winner(s) in that, and then only show the results of the Elimination placements in the rest. This should bring the number of possible outcomes to "WIN" , "HIGH" , "LOW" , "OUT", "DQ", "QUIT" (well, not yet, but just in case), and "IN", which only needs 6 colors that can easily be represented. And yes, I would retroactivitely do S1 and S2 pages the same way. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 13:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
:I was thinking about this last night and hoping someone with a longer tenure using reality tv wikis would weigh in on the subject. I agree wholeheartedly that the number of colors is already too much and if the current trend continues, even more colors--sadly--will be needed (for QF winner/High, QF winner/Out, QF winner/DQ, etc.).

:I like your suggestion, Masem, and I'd take it one step further. I don't think that separate colors for "Quit" and "DQ" are necessary. Just keep it gray for "OUT"...there's already a text comment that tells how the person went (e.g. S2 Mia Quit: Holiday Spirit and Cliff Disqualified: Sense and Sensuality).

: Personally, I'd prefer not to add a row for QF winner but maintain what seems to be the rationale for the S1 and S2 tables: let the yellow box identify the QF winner and let the text (LOW, HIGH, IN, or OUT) indicate the QF winner's fate in the Elimination Challenge. Unfortunately, though, that seems to cause confusion...

: If I were king of the wiki, the table would have 6 colors:
::*Yellow (QF winner. The text "HIGH", "LOW", "IN", or "OUT" indicates that individual's placement in the EC),
::*Mediumorchid (winner of both QF and EC, which is rare but noteworthy)
::*CornflowerBlue (non-QF winner who places HIGH in EC),
::*Tomato (non-QF winner who places LOW in EC), and
::*LimeGreen (non-QF winner who wins EC). A separate color for the series winner is extraneous...the name of the series winner is at the top of the table and they "WIN" (Green) the final IC...that seems crystal clear without needing a pink color,
::*LightGrey (non-QF winner who is OUT).

:But, Masem, I certainly prefer your suggestion of an additional row to the current ever-expanding parade of barely-distinguishable colors. JMHO. [[User:Puzzler28|Puzzler28]] 20:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

::I've made the change to this season to see how it will fly. It looks fine to me.
::Basically, at the end of the day, colors should help, but they should not be required for reading a table, which is why moving the QF winners out of the table, and then leaving the text in each cell that basically spells out the fate of each chef each weak is certainly sufficient; colors are a plus. Having the QF in the table creates too many possible situations that makes the text too hard to understand. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 22:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

:::It looked good! For the five minutes it lasted... ;-) [[User:Puzzler28|Puzzler28]] 01:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Just making a note here that we definitely want to avoid having color as the only way to determine the current result, as per [[WP:WAI]]; moving the QF winner to a separate line gives us that ability since each text result is then unique. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 22:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

*Why do we even have colors for DQ and Quit? I looked at the table for season 2 (in which both occurred), and even though they have those colors listed, they aren't even used. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 21:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
::Personally, I feel we can cut that down to have "OUT", "DQ", and "QUIT" be the same color, since it's effectively the same result - the chef is no longer on the show. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 23:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Team win? Is that really necessary? -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 23:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
:No idea who added it , but its gone now. It's definitely not necessary (teams are listed in the ep recaps below). --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 23:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


==Consistency on origins==
==Consistency on origins==
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Okay, Brooklyn is part of New york so I am at a loss here? Should we mention what borough Joey is from as well? Not that this is incorrect, it is just inconsistent and sloppy.
Okay, Brooklyn is part of New york so I am at a loss here? Should we mention what borough Joey is from as well? Not that this is incorrect, it is just inconsistent and sloppy.


== Re: Consistency on origins ==
== Episode 13 Guest Judge ==

When you see "New York, New York," it almost always means "Manhattan, New York." Manhattan, the island itself, is one of the five boroughs, along with Brooklyn, The Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.

So, contrary to appearances, "New York, New York" and "Brooklyn, New York" are actually two different places.

[[User:Pascotimes|Roger]] 02:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== Spoilers ==
Are there agreed upon times on when updates should be made such that entries are not considered 'spoilers', or does that not really matter? --[[User:Turketwh|Turketwh]] 03:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:After airing on east coast, please feel free to add details. WP doesn't run on tape delay. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 04:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::Bear in mind that the people who are at risk from spoilers follow the show and know they can expect to see the information, so they're participants in their own "spoiling"; moreover, it's far enough down the page that you don't see it accidentally. (And, after all, Bravo posts the blog entries once the show has aired on the East Coast -- if anyone has a motive not to spoil, it's the network.) -- [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 04:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

== Why the initial caps ==

For the list of recipe ingredients? I don't quite understand it, but didn't want to change it if there's some reason for it. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 22:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
:No reason? Okay, I'm going to change it all to normal capitalization, then. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 16:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
::I started adding the recipe ingredients, and I used the "initial caps" format because that is the way the dishes are listed on Bravo's web site. That was the only reason. [[User:Pascotimes|Roger]] 15:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

== Any need for the Elim/Quickfire sections ==

I know the other two TC seasons have them, but is there any reason why we need to have the Elimination and Quickfire "how many each chef has won" sections that comes after the Contestant listing? This information is even moreso readily apparent from the performance table and its weighting the page down both in the body and extending the TOC as such. I would suggest that if removing it here, it should also be removed on the other season pages. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 14:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

:I agree. I was considering proposing the same thing. It doesn't really add anything to the article, especially considering that we have that chart. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 14:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

::Since no one else is saying anything, the S3 ones are going. If there's no major opposition, I'll ditch the S1 and S2 equivalents later today. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 16:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

==Casey was LOW in Episode 4==

Is she not colored in because she was safe? No, that's not right, because Brian is marked LOW in Episode 3. Fixing this. [[User:Clconway|Clconway]] 15:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


Can someone tell me who the guest judge was for the Ep. 13 Elimination? I did see his name, but forgot what it was. If so, can someone please add it to the article. [[User:ScottAHudson|ScottAHudson]] 00:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
== Was Sara M. LOW in Episode 3? ==


:Andre Soultner. It's there already.
User [[Special:Contributions/69.1.2.227|Contributions/69.1.2.227]] thinks so. I reverted these edits because they didn't use the proper formatting and I don't have verification if they're correct. Does anybody remember if Sara M. was LOW rather than IN in Episode 3? [[User:Clconway|Clconway]] 13:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
:[[User:24.46.129.157|24.46.129.157]] 22:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
:Yes, she was. [http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/portal/site/TelevisionWithoutPity/menuitem.766266d5c663f366b180b41045001d30/?vgnextoid=fcb237d9f0273110VgnVCM1000006dc1d240RCRD&vgnextfmt=default&ShowName=Top+Chef&currentPage=14]


== Do we really need this? ==
== Links to pages of individual participants necessary? ==


While I don't know if this is true of all of the links, all of the ones that I clicked lead me back to the Top Chef Season 3 page. Is it really necessary to make all of those names into links if there aren't actually pages and the existent links essentially just refresh the page? It seems ridiculous to me. [[User:Womanhood|Womanhood]] 00:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Tom saying that it was changed from 2 to 3 going to the finals, fine. But do we really need a sentence saying which three are moving on? None of the other episodes have it. I think people are smart enough to figure out that if Brian was eliminated, the other three are still there. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 21:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
:No they aren't, and they should be removed. Only those chefs that may already have pages should be linked, even if it looks odd that only one or two have such. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 00:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
:At least one of the other episodes '''does''' have it, but I don't feel that strongly about it. I can take it out, if it has not already been removed. -- [[User:Pascotimes|Roger]] 21:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
::Thanks, the redundancy of the information just bugged me. I took out the other instance, as well. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 21:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
::I figured as much! I went ahead and removed those links. It turns out that none of the chefs have articles on the site, so every one of the links just brought the user back to the Season 3 page. Weird. [[User:Womanhood|Womanhood]] 01:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


==TYPO?==
== Runners up? ==


Designating Dale and Casey as first and second runners up is reasonable based on the comments of the Judges, but typically Contestant Progress is restricted to what the Judges officially said. Give that, I don't see any justification in what aired to label Dale "first runner up" and Casey "second runner up." Indeed, Tom Colicchio used the term "runners up" for Howie, CJ, and Sara (see [http://www.bravotv.com/blog/tomcolicchio/2007/10/the_air_up_there.php?page=3 here]). Dale and Casey were "finalists." [[User:Clconway|Clconway]] 18:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I watched the first part of episode 9 and i saw something below Casey's name on her confessional, it says "sous chef" i thought the sous chef was CJ and Casey is the designer.(people before blatantly attacking me please watch the video again so that you can comprehend what I'm talking about) is this a typo or something?


:I agree, I just double checked the finale, and they never state that it was only between Dale and Hung before Padme gave her announcement, as they asked all 3 chefs about how they felt. If we say that Casey was 2nd runner up or finalist or whatever, that's edging on OR, though we can certainly state that in the final JT, Hung had won 2 courses, and Dale 2 courses, and let the reader make of tha what they will. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] 18:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
: The identification titles in the show typically refer to the contestant's job in real life... Although Casey's official bio lists her as "executive chef" at Shinsei in Dallas [http://www.bravotv.com/Top_Chef/cast/casey/index.php]). [[User:Clconway|Clconway]] 16:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


:Yeah, I think the runner up parts should be taken out. [[User:Tinkleheimer|<span style="color:green">Trevor</span>]] [[User_talk:Tinkleheimer|<span style="color:green">"Tinkleheimer"</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Tinkleheimer|<span style="color:green">Haworth</span>]] 21:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
==CHANGE IT==


:: I changed 2'nd runner up to just runner up because the show never calls anyone 2'nd runner-up. However i say we keep the Runner up title (instead of just OUT) because they are both referred to as the Runner-up.[[User:Harlock jds|harlock_jds]] ([[User talk:Harlock jds|talk]]) 14:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
in the first part of episode 9, Dale and Brian should be "LOW" because they were called in the bottom group(the basis of putting "LOW" on a contestant must happen if they WERE CALLED IN THE BOTTOM GROUP it doesn't matter if they are safe that week they are still "LOW" on that episode and somebody needs to change that. {{unsigned|68.84.10.219}}


Setting aside the first vs. second business, can somebody please explain to me the attachment to the phrase "Runner-up"? Do we need to make a linguistic distinction between being OUT in the last episode as opposed to being OUT in any other episode of the season? Can a reader not infer that Dale and Casey did better than everybody but Hung by just reading the chart?
:The judges never told any contestant or team directly to them that they were the worst this week. That is immediately the basis that we have used in the past to indicate who is LOW. Even with Dale and Brian being called back, neither of them was told that their individual performance was bad (directly to them, despite what the chatter around the JTable was like). Assigning everyone as being "IN" is the most consistent action we can do, with footnotes indicating why this came about. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 16:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


::I agree. We should avoid speculation in the absence of clear evidence from the show. -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 16:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


Which reminds me: is there a WPTV guideline for the Progress chart? Maybe there should be (this is a common feature of "competition reality" articles)? [[User:Clconway|Clconway]] ([[User talk:Clconway|talk]]) 14:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
== Madonna's brother? ==


== Tre on Iron Chef? ==
Seems like an incredibly trivial fact. What does this information add to the article? -[[User:Chunky Rice|Chunky Rice]] 04:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
:As such, it doesn't ... it may have been mentioned partly because many people commenting on Bravo's TC blogs &mdash; and possibly in recaps at places like TWOP, I haven't checked &mdash; commented on this guest's bizarrely attention-getting behavior, while the typical non-famous guest on the show stays low profile; when he was identified by others after the show, people had an "Ah, ''that'' explains it" reaction. If there was some [[WP:RS|source that meets WP's standards]] that indicates that viewers were puzzled by a person most perceived as a nobody acting rudely, with no comment from others on the show, and that later there was buzz over the realization of who he was. We could also mention that unlike the usual celebrity appearance on the show, there was no on-screen identification.
:At any rate, his appearance will be more relevant now that he appeared in Pt. II as the designer for both restaurants. [[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 04:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
::'''Update''': Fiddled with the mention a little to add a source to show it was notable; want to fiddle one tiny bit more once I have a good source for the fact that there were many people out there (a) complaining and (b) saying "what was up with that?" I know blogs generally don't count for WP, with some exceptions; does [http://amuse-biatch.blogspot.com/2007/08/every-little-thing-that-he-says-or-does.html#links Amuse-Biatch] qualify? I'll keep looking while I wait for an answer.[[User:Lawikitejana|Lawikitejana]] 04:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


He was a sous chef on the side of challengers, the Rathburn brothers, when they went against Bobby Flay. [[Special:Contributions/24.124.29.130|24.124.29.130]] ([[User talk:24.124.29.130|talk]]) 06:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
== Barbecue and regionalism ==
Just a note about the editorial comment added about "barbecue/barbeque/BBQ". I realize that barbecue means vastly different things in the US as far as some southern states are concerned, but the editorial comment doesn't add to the quality of this article. If you wanted "exactness" then the contestants should have been forced to smoke meat on a frame in a pit of burning wood. [[User:192.234.136.23|192.234.136.23]] 19:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
:I know myself, I could care less what they called the challenge; the point of that footnote comment is that Tom C himself had to note to fans of the show via his blog that yes, they said barbecue but really should have been saying grilling. The footnote was not there as a biased point from a WP editor; that's just to say that the show called it BBQ and had to back off on that. --[[User:Masem|Masem]] 20:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:45, 2 February 2024

Consistency on origins[edit]

Joey Paulino, age 29, New York, New York
Lia Bardeen, age 28, Brooklyn, New York

Okay, Brooklyn is part of New york so I am at a loss here? Should we mention what borough Joey is from as well? Not that this is incorrect, it is just inconsistent and sloppy.

Episode 13 Guest Judge[edit]

Can someone tell me who the guest judge was for the Ep. 13 Elimination? I did see his name, but forgot what it was. If so, can someone please add it to the article. ScottAHudson 00:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Andre Soultner. It's there already.
24.46.129.157 22:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need this?[edit]

Okay, Tom saying that it was changed from 2 to 3 going to the finals, fine. But do we really need a sentence saying which three are moving on? None of the other episodes have it. I think people are smart enough to figure out that if Brian was eliminated, the other three are still there. -Chunky Rice 21:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At least one of the other episodes does have it, but I don't feel that strongly about it. I can take it out, if it has not already been removed. -- Roger 21:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the redundancy of the information just bugged me. I took out the other instance, as well. -Chunky Rice 21:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Runners up?[edit]

Designating Dale and Casey as first and second runners up is reasonable based on the comments of the Judges, but typically Contestant Progress is restricted to what the Judges officially said. Give that, I don't see any justification in what aired to label Dale "first runner up" and Casey "second runner up." Indeed, Tom Colicchio used the term "runners up" for Howie, CJ, and Sara (see here). Dale and Casey were "finalists." Clconway 18:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I just double checked the finale, and they never state that it was only between Dale and Hung before Padme gave her announcement, as they asked all 3 chefs about how they felt. If we say that Casey was 2nd runner up or finalist or whatever, that's edging on OR, though we can certainly state that in the final JT, Hung had won 2 courses, and Dale 2 courses, and let the reader make of tha what they will. --MASEM 18:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think the runner up parts should be taken out. Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 21:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I changed 2'nd runner up to just runner up because the show never calls anyone 2'nd runner-up. However i say we keep the Runner up title (instead of just OUT) because they are both referred to as the Runner-up.harlock_jds (talk) 14:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Setting aside the first vs. second business, can somebody please explain to me the attachment to the phrase "Runner-up"? Do we need to make a linguistic distinction between being OUT in the last episode as opposed to being OUT in any other episode of the season? Can a reader not infer that Dale and Casey did better than everybody but Hung by just reading the chart?


Which reminds me: is there a WPTV guideline for the Progress chart? Maybe there should be (this is a common feature of "competition reality" articles)? Clconway (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tre on Iron Chef?[edit]

He was a sous chef on the side of challengers, the Rathburn brothers, when they went against Bobby Flay. 24.124.29.130 (talk) 06:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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