Talk:Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

Category

I see that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight now figures in the Category "Literature of the United Kingdom" A naive anachronism like this is bound to spread its own confusion among Wikipedia readers. Would it be officious to remove it?--Wetman 00:21, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how one would remove it, but it should be removed. SGGK is specifically English literature, not Scots, or Welsh, or Cornish. It's profoundly English in that it's localized to a specific English dialect from the South West Midlands.

DigitalMedievalist 22:04, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) Lisa

Beheading Symbolism

I'm going to mention that the severed head is one of the aspects of Celtic mythology present in the story. CountMippipopolous 14 Apr 2005

That's a sound point, but you'll need to give it some context or folks'll be taken aback. I mean, you're correct, but it's not general knowledge and needs to be presented.--Wetman

I've clarified the reference to the beheading game in Bricriu's Feast, linking it to the relevant article and also referencing it to Tolkien/Gordon. However, I've removed the reference to the Black Death, which seemed unsubstantiated. If this is an inappropriate edit, perhaps someone can reinstate it, with an appropriate reference.Martin Turner 18:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What if

So if Sir Gawain had succumbed to the Lady's temptations AND kept the end of his deal with Lord Bercilak, would that mean he would have had to bang him at the end of the day? And still survive the beheading?

No one knows if he would have survived or not. Wrad 14:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Morgan and Merlin

I asked User:DigitalMedievalist "I wonder, where you've recently reverted an edit, if you wouldn't go back and quote the line about Morgan le Fay and Merlin (you gave the line number) and actually edit your point about their connection into the text for us. Thanks." (Wetman 22:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC))

I'm perfectly willing to do that--but the line has a thorn in it--and I can't determine how Wikipedia wants thorn to be handled; html entity? Unicode?

DigitalMedievalist 05:09, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)Lisa

Question Mark

When I look at this text, I get what looks like a question mark in the SGGK text. Is this some sort of problem, or is it a glottal stop symbol?211.225.32.196 06:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm getting squares in place of your question marks, I think. It's where a yogh belongs. It displayed fine in Safari on a Mac, but it's boxes on this Windows PC with a presumably up-to-date Internet Explorer; maybe it's a problem with Unicode on Windows (stab in the dark)? (don't know how to time-date stamp, don't have time to figure it out right now)

Inaccuracies

According to The Ithaca Online [1], this article has inaccuracies. Where are they?

"Michael Twomey, professor of English, said he looked up “Sir Gawain and the Green Night.” He talks about the medieval poem in class and has published articles about it. He said he found factual errors and misleading statements in the entry.

Twomey said he could edit the entry, but the original writer could easily change it back. “In his mind, ‘Sir Gawain’ is his turf, and he doesn’t want anyone else messing with it,” Twomey said. Since the editing process can become a battle of wills, Twomey said he advises his students not to rely on Wikipedia."

If there are inaccuracies, and if indeed someone has this on their watchlist and won't accept revisions, can I please ask them to consider constructive criticism? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't students be relying on the poem rather than looking at articles in encyclopedias?Martin Turner 17:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I looked through the article history, and I can't find what he's talking about. The "original writer" is Heron, and he hasn't been back again since 03. This has been on my watchlist for some time now, and I haven't seen anyone here reverting genuine corrections or acting like they own the article. Personally, I'd love to see an expert improve Sir Gawain, or at least tell us what's wrong with it. Where exactly are those inaccuracies?--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Good question. Sounds a bit like a disgruntled academic who hasn't reviewed the article in quite a while. Pity. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this imaginary editor who reverts all corrections is a lousy excuse for the professor not to dig in and help - but let's improve the article anyway. Haukur 08:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed there are inaccuracies in the article. The timeline of events at the mysterious castle is incorrect.

First of all, Sir Gawain arrives at the mysterious castle on Christmas morning, not Christmas Eve:

“This way, in danger, in pain and hardship, Over the land the knight rides till Christmas Eve, alone;

Then, in despair on his ride, He cries in a plangent tone That Mary be his guide To a house, a warm hearth-stone.

Next morning he rides on merrily, beside a hill, Into a dark wood, wonderfully wild.”

Secondly, the feasting and general Christmas celebrations continue until St John’s day (27 December), “the final festive day”, not just until the day after he arrives. It is at the end of this day, after the guests that are due to depart the next morning have gone to bed, that the lord is told of Sir Gawain’s quest, the proximity of the Green Chapel is revealed and the bargain made

The next morning (28 December) the guests depart, the lord hunts deer and, that evening, receives a kiss in exchange for the venison. It is misleading to suggest that not divulging the source of the kiss was “according to the lord’s bargain” since the reason Sir Gawain gives is “… not part of the pact” and he dismisses the lord’s question with “ask me no more”.

On 29 December the lord hunts boar and receives two kisses in exchange for the boar.

Finally, on the evening of 30 December, he receives three kisses in exchange for the fox pelt.

Here the poet’s sense of time fails him because he thinks the next day is New Year’s Day, whereas it is 31 December.

Anyway, Sir Gawain sets out for the encounter with the Green Knight on New Year’s Day.

It should also be mentioned that the identity of the lord is revealed as Sir Bercilak of Hautdesert. This is missing from the article.

It seems highly misleading to theorise that the poet intends to imply that the Order of the Garter originated with King Arthur from this incident, since a girdle worn over one shoulder and passing under the opposite armpit is definitely not a garter. Cliff 11:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC) The Order of the Garter link is a well established theory in the critical literature. However, it is not (to my knowledge) suggested that the girdle relates to the garter, nor that the poet is implying it originates with King Arthur. Nonetheless, the use of the Order of the Garter motto to conclude the poem is an explicit link. I quote the note on line 2514 from Tolkien/Gordon 2nd edition of the poem edited by Norman Davis: "This decision has sometimes been taken as an indication that the poem was composed with reference to some order of knighthood … The legend at the end of the peom Hony soyt qui mal pence is the motto of the order of the Garter…" In fact the editors do not find this link particularly convincing, and point out that the parallel poem 'the Green Knight' claims that the collar is the founding of the order of the Bath. Nonetheless, the suggested link is one that has exercised a number of scholars.Martin Turner 17:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

One thing about Gawain is that there is no real consensus on what the story means, so to present any single point of view is misleading in itself. Maybe this article needs more interpretations (Feminist, Religious, etc.) although I think it balances the opinions currently in it very well. Wrad 03:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt about what the poem means. It's a fairly straightforward story, although artistically told and more advanced than most medieval romances. Roger Lancelyn Green's retelling (in King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table) captures the entire plot, uncontroversially. Controversy is mainly about what the subsidiary components are supposed to represent — if anything. Loomis et al mined this and other Arthurian literature for origins, and the motifs of the girdle, the Green Man, Morgan Le Fay, the pentangle, the green chapel, the hunt etc are all evocative and not difficult to track down in folk traditions. There are also unsolved critical problems, for example, in the rhetorical anti-feminism of Gawain's final speech to the Green Knight. However, none of these are actually core interpretations of what the poem means — merely sidelights on aspects of it. Martin Turner 22:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey! Interesting fact: We are now citing the guy who criticized our article in our article! Look at the Ithaca link in the references section. Wrad 18:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Plot synopsis adjustions

For the sake of organization, I moved literary interpretations in the plot into the new "Interpretations" section. The way I see it, this section could have subsections such as, the Pentangle, Feminist interpretations, Christian interpretations, etc. along with the ones already there. Keeping these ideas separate from the plot also maintains reader neutrality, alowing them to make their own assumptions. I also think that much of the intro as it is should be in its own section called "Games." I don't know that it summarizes the article as well as it could. Wrad 02:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

New Changes

Well, as you can see, there are a lot of changes to the page recently, all done by me. I tried to expand the article while keeping the information already in it. I really hope that I have made it better, but if you see problems, please feel free to post them here. Most of the sources are now cited except for the poet section and a bit of the girdle section, give or take, and I still feel that with a poem of this importance there is a lot of room for expansion. Again, feel free to critique any recent changes, or give suggestions for further improvement. Wrad 07:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

First modern edition?

I'm not sure that the first modern edition was published by Tolkien, as said in the intro. There was an earlier translation in 1898 by Jessie L. Weston. [2]. Wrad 18:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, here is a section without citations that looked a lot like original research:

There is much speculation as to whether the girdle would have really kept Gawain from dying had the Green Knight desired to kill him. The lady, it seems, has lied to Gawain insofar as the girdle has not kept him completely from harm. On the other hand, it has kept him from death. The author leaves the exact powers of the girdle undefined and open to interpretation, but makes it clear that the Green Knight would not have willingly spared Gawain's life had he failed to resist the lady's sexual advances. Assuming it has no life-saving powers, it is meant to be ironic that the girdle, the one thing that Gawain thinks will save him, is actually the thing that harms him; furthermore, assuming the girdle has no real powers, it would have been the thing that led to his death had he taken it as a love token, which is what the lady originally offered it to him as.

I removed it, but if anyone can find citations, feel free to put it back. Wrad 04:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

• I actually added a small section regarding Tolkien's edition (which should be expanded by those more familiar with it). My rationale for doing so is that Tolkien's translation is frequently referenced as a Tolkien original work (I'm trying to find better sources than the one I posted which does acknowledge Tolkien didn't originate it, albeit at the very bottom of the page). I know of at least 2 editions that were published in the same format as Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's other works, with no indication on the cover that Tolkien did not write the work himself.68.146.41.17 02:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't aware of that, thanks for the add. Wrad 02:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

First, there's a difference between an edition, and a translation. And edition is the text of the poem based on the original ms., in Middle English, with any departures from the ms. text carefully noted and explained; editions usually have things like introductions, extensive footnotes, editorial practice notes, and glossaries. The first edition of SGGK was Gollancz, Israel. Ed. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. EETS O. S. 210. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1940. That's not the first publication date; my copy is a reprint and they don't list the first print, oddly. Then there's Tolkien and Gordon's first edition of their edition: Tolkien, J. R. R. and E. V. Gordon; first. 1925. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Oxford: Oxford University Press. That was later re-edited by Norman Davis, Tolkien, J. R. R. and E. V. Gordon; second edition revised by Norman Davis. 1967. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Tolkien's translation, published posthumously by his son in Tolkien, J. R. R. Trans. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Pearl Sir Orfeo. London: George Allen & Unwin 1975; Ballantine Books edition January 1988, is a separate thing. It's an actual metered translation into modern English, and, no, it's not the first.

Digital Medievalist/Lisa L. Spangenberg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.173.45 (talk) 15:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

New Themes sections to add (possibly)

Hunting

Some references H. L Savage (1956) - hunting and bedroom scenes: shared characteristics between Gawain and the beast hunted by Bertilak. So, on the frist day, Gawain is like a deer (nervous), on the second day, he's like a boar (brash), and on the third, fox-like (sly).

Peter McClure (1973) argues each animal displays a trait that Gawain must overcome.

Marcelle Thiébaux The Stag of Love (1974). Link between bedroom and hunt; comments on the words "fonge" ("to find" ln 816), and "kachande" (to catch, ln 1581), both with connotations of a hunt. (JoeBlogsDord 13:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC))

Beheading game

The Turke and Gawain - The Turke, decapitated, turns into Sir Gromer. (JoeBlogsDord 13:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC))

 Done I think this is covered now. Wrad 01:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Symmetry and pattern

Any expansion that can be offered would be great. Wrad 18:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, there's number symbolism. It's there, and though it's not that important to a reader, it's clearly deliberate. The first line of Troy is repeated at 2525. The poem is 2530 lines long, which is 2525+5. The bob is five lines long. The five points of the pentagram. (JoeBlogsDord 12:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC))

GA review

Ok, I will be the reviewer of this article. I expect the review to be a quick one since there already was a peer review. If there are any questions do not hesitate to ask them. Daimanta 19:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Wrad 20:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)