Talk:Music of Mongolia

English name for "Urtiin duu"

"Long-song" is not a good translation of the "Urtiin duu". The Mongolian term is "urtiin", but not "urt". These songs are usually short, not longer than 3-4 minutes. Their main feature is the prolonged vibrating notes (this feature is also heard in the songs of many other Asian peoples) on vowels and the closest musical term for them is "tenuto". These majestic prolonged vibrating notes give the song profound philosophical, meditational character and they also depict the spacious mountain valleys. The Russian translation is "Протяжная песня", not "Длинная песня". And the English language deserves a better translation than "long song". As a translator, I translate "urtiin duu" as "tenuto song". I am aware "long song" is widely used, however this term fails to describe the genre right. Gantuya eng 13:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are a bit right with your opinion but I know also many examples of „Urtiin duu“ last longer than 4 minutes. „Urtiin“ is the genitiv of „urt“. But everybody in and outside of Mongolia including all scientific papers or books characterise this style of songs „Urtiin duu“ or „long songs“. It would be confusing to rename „long song“ into „tenuto song“. 14 August 2007, (Hangarid)

You are right. It is registered as a UNESCO intangible heritage under the name "urtiin duu" with translation "long song". I have got a recording with Urtiin Duu -- there are 5 Urtiin Duu of which 3 last less than 3 minutes, 1 lasts less than 4 minutes and only 1 lasts 5:26 minutes. They are with no sophisticated arrangement--just in their natural form, accompanied by morin huur only. Of course they may sound much longer with sophisticated modern arrangement.

You made a good point that "urtiin" is a genitive of "urt". Genitive makes the meaning diffierent form flat "long". This doesn't quite mean that this "song is long", but it means "song of something which is long". And that "something which is long" is, firstly, the long notes. This is the "song of long notes-tenuto notes" (with vibrato). Secondly, "urtiin" may make even more profound meanings.

Changing the translation doesn't mean changing the name itself. The term "Urtiin Duu" has been in the Mongolian language for centuries and it is not to be changed. But the translation can be changed, even if it is in the UNESCO documents already. Even the English spellings of "Chinggis", "Ulan-Bator", etc, have been changing many times. Concerning confusions, the word "long song" may make a listener think this song is long and therefore tiring. Gantuya eng 13:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with most you have written. I want add only: The length of a „urtiin duu“ (also the vibrato) depends on the style, the ethnic, the performance of the singer and the counts of chanted stanzas. I don´t mean arrangements but the original chanted „duu“ in the rural areas mostly without any instrumental accompaniment. The text „Long-songs“ of Wikipedia describes that the name „long-song“ doesn´t mean that it is of long duration. Please do your additions, but I would not change the headline. „Urtiin duu“ is known as „long song“ – correct translated or not – and you cannot change the worldwide translation. Why do you not add „tenuto song“ in brackets beside it? 16 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Yes, they distinguish the following styles of Urtiin Duu: Besreg Urtiin Duu (in Russian, simply протяжная песня), Urtiin Duu (in Russian, величаво-протяжная песня) and Aizam Urtiin Duu (in Rissian, торжественно-протяжная песня). Besreg Urtiin Duu is the least complicated one while the other two require more skills from the singer.

I also translated it "long song" in the beginning of my career, but I didn't like this translation from the very beginning. I tried many other versions and at last came to "tenuto-song". The phrase "long song" emerged when the Mongolian-English translators were generally inexperienced. This phrase "long song" is so dodgy that Wikipedia even had to explain that this doesn't refer to the duration. You say the phrase "long song" is a worldwide translation, but the Mongolians insist, for example, on "Chinggis Khaan" VS "Genghis Khan" which is also a "worldwide" spelling, which has been around not for decades but for centuries. Gantuya eng 14:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if "tenuto song" would be technically more correct, it is still a neologism that hardly anyone else uses, so it has no place in Wikipedia. It is not our task to decide which name is correct or not. It is our task to document the name that is commonly used. Consequently, there is no viable alternative other than using the established English name "long song". Of course, the exact meaning of the Mongolian name should still be explained. --Latebird 17:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have used "tenuto song" in the translations for some UNESCO projects. I thought they would change it to "long song", but later I saw they'd left it as it is. Gantuya eng 02:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In that case you coined a new term for them (and apparently nobody noticed), which can't be relevant for Wikipedia. If most English language sources use "long song", then we must do the same. The relevant guideline here is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). --Latebird 09:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I want to add that singing of “besreg urtiin duu” doesn´t mean that a singer hasn´t enough skills, it can mean that an ethnic tribe has a repertoire of traditional “besreg urtiin duu” only. 16 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Sure Gantuya eng 01:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Gantuya, because you are interested, today I listened a 1967 recorded „besreg urtiin duu“ which lasted 13:10 minutes. 19 August 2007, (Hangarid)

Do you mean that Urtiin Duu is necessarily a "looong song" because it has a looong duration? Gantuya eng 19:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn´t say. But I thought you are interested in music and infos. Also you wrote in an earlier add about the length of urtiin duu you heard. 19 August 2007, (Hangarid) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.3.113.169 (talk) 20:16:04, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

OK, thank you for the info. You are kind. Gantuya eng 02:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Horse-head fiddle / Morin Khuur

„Uligershin“ is the name of singers who perform fables only. Anyway the sentence is wrong as the „morin khuur“ is used to accompy a large number of different song styles.

The sentence you have deleted seems to mean that morinhuur was originally used by uligerchins. Whether it is true or not, I don't know. Gantuya eng 12:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Schlager or country music?

IMO people like Batsükh, Javkhlan & Bayasgalan etc. are much closer to what Germans call Volkstümliche Musik than to Schlager. Topics like homesickness, longing for mother/father etc. are borrowed from age-old tradition, and also the music seems to use traditional elements (instruments, khömii), at least as an ornament and from time to time. Schlager would be more like that Khiliin zastavyn khar nüden büsgüi song. Yaan 21:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations with your deep knowledge of the Mongolian culture! Yes, many Mongolian musicians, especially rockers, call these (I think metaphorically) "country music" in contrast to rock/pop/hip which they call "city music". Less metaphorically Batsükh, Javkhlan, Bayasgalan & Khiliin zastavyn khar nüden büsgüi song are all included in a category of "нийтийн дуу" or "mass songs" (USSR also had "массовая песня"). They all used to use the traditional instruments, but now use synthesised accompanement. In addition there is another form of "нийтийн дуу" which uses Symphonic orchestra (Zangad, Purevdorj, Dolgor) and this kind cannot be thought of as a "country music" (in my perception). "нийтийн дуу" isn't limited to melancholic topics. Russian press uses terms "массовая песня" and "schlager" synonymically, especially referring to the most simple and popular ones. That's the reason I titled the article Schlager. Correct me if I am wrong. Gantuya eng 00:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. To me as a German, Schlager is more like Modern Talking or Dschingis Khan (who you probably know) or particularly Roy Black or Roland Kaiser (who you might not know), i.e. quite independent from tradition, kind of like pop music, but maybe less sophisticated. But maybe English speakers have a different perception what makes a schlager, and there is no definite characterization. But if we can agree that Batsükh & co have / aim at a more rural rather than a more urban image, I think country music might be at least one appropriate term. Or maybe folk music? Yaan 01:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, really? (Modern Talking & Dschingis Khan are schlagerists) For Russians and Mongolians they were a kind of disco or rock. Batsükh-like music imitates to certain degree folk songs, but they are called "зохиолын дуу" to distinguish from folk songs, whose authors are unknown. Of course, there is no clear boundary for "schlager"--any kind of popular and simple song (usually short-living) can be called a "schalger". We can use the term "зохиолын дуу" or "нийтийн дуу" for these songs. I think in any case they should be separate from rock/hip. Gantuya eng 03:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've thought of changing the title "Schlagers" as we discussed this is not quite the term. For example a simple rock-n-roll can be a schalger. Thus "schalger" describes the way of its being popular rather than the style. Gantuya eng 07:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not happy with "Schlager" here either. I think the best English term for the German "Volkstümliche Musik" is "Popular folk music". --Latebird 13:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Amarkhuu

Is Amarkhuu a citizen of Mongolia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gantuya eng (talk • contribs) 10:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I also just discovered this article today. Apparently he is the son of an acrobat of the Mongolian State Circus, who left Mongolia for Ulan Ude some time ago. Whether he really should be listed under "Mongolian music" is a different question, though... --Latebird 13:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Dances

How about dances? Gantuya eng 13:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be a seperate article. --Latebird 13:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Oirat culture in MPR

Oirat culture was popular and loved during MPR. The set of dances of ethnic groups by Sevjid, the oirat biyelgee, which was shown on TV every weekend, the festival of indiginous arts (Yazguur Urlagiin Naadam) where Western Mongolians won many medals, Jangariada tought at school on the subject of literature, all these are evidence that Oirat culture was treasured. Even the MPRP leader, Tsedenbal himself, was an Oirat and he promoted many of his river-mates to high political posts. In addition, the Kazakh culture was also treasured and prosperred in MPR. Gantuya eng 09:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Gantuy, if the conversations with all the old singers are no reference for you then I will add a scientific reference tomorrow. I await that in future you add references for every of your changes! Because you are not all-knowing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 13:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"Conversations with all the old singers" can only be accepted as reference if they have been published independently elsewhere. If we just have to take your word for it, then it's Original Research, which Wikipedia can't and doesn't accept. I'd also like to remind you to remain civil at all times in discussions, and not to try to make a point. --Latebird 19:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

At least spell my name right Gantuya eng 14:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Jangariade was taught at school as one of the three pillars of the Mongolian literature together with the Secret History and Geseriade?

Mr. Badraa (Om mani badme hum) talked about and promoted the music of various ethnicities, especially of the Western ones?

I've got a book of collections of Oirat songs and a book of the Oirat epos "Dani Kurel". They were published in Ulaanbaatar in 1980s, during Communism.

Please be invited to go to Galdan Boshughtu Khan, Queen Anu, Erdeni Batur and/or Dzungars and make a productive contribution.

Gantuya eng 16:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Your style is not my style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 09:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1) Hi, why is the ISBN you gave for this book different from that available to me?

2) I suggest you to create an article about the Oirat culture of Oirat music on Wikipedia. Gantuya eng 11:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1) hard-copy, paperback 2) I suggest you create an article about non-traditional music —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.98.134 (talk) 12:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I created this section Mongolia#Popular music. It covers rock/pop only. Do you have a say about jazz? Gantuya eng 12:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

repression and force

I think the statements about repression and force in the introduction need eíther some more elaboration or should be removed. In which way were musicians repressed? I assume that aspects of indigenous culture like lamaism or shamanism are not really relevant here, even though both do make heavy use of their respective special kinds of music. In which way were Khalkha musical ideas forced upon the other groups? I don't doubt that there is a certain degree of Khalkha-ization in the country, but I wonder if this is really a result of communism and use of force or rather a normal result of steady cultural influence, similar to what can be observed in non-communist, not-Khalkha-dominated countries like, maybe, France. Yaan 11:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The traditional culture experienced certain damage due to Communist ideology. But this damage affected the culture of all exthnic groups equally. Khalha culture also suffered. There were dances under all ethnic group names except Khalha. There were Bayad dance, Derbet dance, Hotan dance, etc. But there was no Khalha dance (officially) until 1990. Why? I don't know. Literature suffered. Folk songs suffered. Verses were cut out if any religious or nationalist elements were found in them. At least they changed the words. Some songs were prohibited. The traditional literary language was forgotten and Ts. Damdinsuren invented new literary language together with the Cyrillic script. The traditional literary language developed during Ligdan Khaan when a lot of Buddhist scriptures were translated (or maybe during the time of the Secret History). The films of the Communist epoch are still admired for the talent of the "golden age" actors. But the meaning of those films are complete anti-Buddhism and a lot of distortion of history. So the whole Mongolian culture suffered, not only Oirat culture. At school they taught that "Secret History", "Jangar Saga" and "Gesar Saga" are the three pillars of the Mongolian literature. "Jangar Saga" is an important part of Oirat culture. Which of these 3 is Khalha? User "193.171.98.134" has shown a reference to an Americal researcher (Pegg, Carole. "Mongolian Music, Dance, and Oral Narrative: Performing Diverse Identities". 2001. University of Washington Press. Book & CD. ISBN 0-295-98112-1, p256, p275, p276). Three pages! We have to order that book and check what is actually written there. Do other sources support her discovery? After all, some of the inhabitants of MPR are still alive. Gantuya eng 13:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No further source is needed, everybody is free to read the cited pages. But you are free to give a detailed source for your opposing thesis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 09:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

User "193.171.98.134" didn't cite anything. S/he only made a reference. These are different things. S/he even doesn't describe how it was repressed. It's not creative at all. Gantuya eng 11:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Since your statements are contested, you DO need to show that your source is representative of general knowledge, and not just the peronal opinion of a single author. It's not enought to provide just some source. It must be reliable and accepted by the wider scientific community. This is the first source I hear about that seems to single out the oirats as suffering more cultural damage than the remaining population of Mongolia. Such an exceptional claim clearly needs better references. The title of your book already suggests some bias. --Latebird 09:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I really can't understand how the Oirat culture was repressed. Jangariade taught in every school and ensemble Soyol Erdene making the Oirat song "Tonjoo" famous with rock arrangement in 1970's are bright examples of Oirat culture being cherished in MPR. Gantuya eng 10:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I propose, first to read the book before you deliver commentaries. To disbelieve an author who is a well known scientist and ethnomusicologist based on a book title only is unscientifically. After reading the book you will know, that a large part of the book discusses also the traditional music of non-oirat mongolian ethnics. The latter becomes confirmed, after reading the titles of her publication list.

Your doubts are personal views. I gave a source, but I am awaiting any sources of contrary personal opinion. State me a scientific source of an ethnomusicologist (mongolian or not) and not your personally view. I think that I comply with the conditions of Wikipedia in this matter. And Gantuya, I know the song Tonjoo, not in strange rock arrangement or speech but in traditionel version (bright example) and I can list you also several publications who deal with the song. During the communist period such oirat songs used of the purposes to serve the folklore. And relating to your sentence: “After all, some of the inhabitants of MPR are still alive.” – don´t forget, that we speak about music. This and other sentences show, that the reasons of your doubts base on different motives. Regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 08:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have run out of rational arguments, if you now need to resort to personal attacks. I think this discussion has come to an end. Several editors are disputing your edits and the reliability of your source, and you are obviously unable to back them up further. --Latebird 09:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

How do you think this article should benefit from your statement of repression of Oirat music? If you really have serious arguments, that should be an interesting topic for a separate article. We haven't been as lucky as you to read your scientific book. And we would deeply appreciate if you cite those sentences from your scientific book. Please don't hide it. By the inhabitants of MPR I mean the thousands of Mongolians who enjoyed Oirat, Buriat and Kazakh songs and dances during Communism. I'm not praising Communism, I just seek fair and balanced information. Gantuya eng 09:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Баруун Монголын олон ястан ард тvмний урлагийн ууган байгууллага “Улаан гэр” цєєн тооны уран сайханчидтайгаар 1934 онд байгуулагдаж 1936 онд клуб, 1941 онд театрчилсан клуб болон єргєжжээ.Тэр vед аймгийн хоер театр /Дорнод аймаг/ байгуулсны нэгийг Ховд аймагт хєгжим, бvжиг, жvжгийн анги бvхий 40 уран бvтээлчтэйгээр аймгийн хєгжим драмын театрыг 1950 оны 11 дvгээр сарын 25-нд байгуулсан байна. Yзэгч олондоо хvндлэгдэн алдаршсан урлагийн мэргэжлийн томоохон байгууллага болж тєрийн дээд шагнал ”Алтан гадас “ одонт хєгжим драмын театрын урын сан хємрєг нь байнга арвижиж улс, бvсийн урлагийн наадам уралдаан тэмцээнд байнга хошуучилж ардын язгуур урлагийг хєгжvvлэхэд залуу, єсвєр vед євлvvлэх хvндтэй vvрэг гvйцэтгэж байна. http://www.pmis.gov.mn/hovd/index.php?m23

It turns out that Hovd theatre is one of the first 2 aimag theatres. Gantuya eng 09:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you want to say with your last sentence? The theatre was controlled and the music regulated from Ulaanbaatar that time. It´s no source for this question. Give me a scientific source of an ethnomusicologist. You are free to buy the available book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 10:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I mean they invested in the Hovd theatre first.

Every cultural organisation regardless of location or ethnic considerations were under strict Communist censorship.

I can't afford to buy that book. It's too expensive for me. That's why I beg you to cite those sentences from it. Hope it won't be a copyright violation because you have mentioned the author and the book. Gantuya eng 10:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

That the Khovd theatre was built in early times is no argument for your opinion. That the population was provided with “culture” is clear but what was the aim - not the assistance of the local music which was performed traditionally, but to serve after the political and folkloristic standards given from Ulaanbaatar. Give me only one citation assisting your argument. You will not find any. Every musicologist I have spoken (mainly Mongolian) gave me the same information. If the price is high for you, you can use a delivery service of scientific libraries. Prices are low. It´s not an old mongolian publication with an edition of 300 pieces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 10:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So you refuse to cite it for us. I am not going to write a Master thesis in music and have no time to be dealing with the libraries. You know that. If you've really read the book, you would be able to tell us how Dr. Carole Pegg develops the idea and what sources she refers to. Unfortunately you refuse to do that. Don't you feel it sinful to slander the peaceful, submissive and Buddha-fearing people of discrimination against their brothers? Do you feel it appropriate to use the name of Dr. Carole Pegg for your doubful claim? Gantuya eng 11:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

My included sentence was “In Mongolia, Communist control led to the forced cultural domination of the Khalkhas, who are the largest ethnic group in the country.” For this add I gave the source. I gave a correct citation. I don’t have to mention sources of a source etc. You don´t have to claim, all the more you didn´t give me a diffent source. That you don´t want to borrow the book from a library show, that you are not really interested in the music and in the case, but you have different motives. To write a sentence like your last one without reading the book is unhonestly. And the sentence before is only an insult, it should be your style but it´s not my one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 11:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not enough. You mentioned 3 pages. I don't think that she repeated the same sentence on 3 pages. You are not showing how she justifies her claim. Be serious. This claim "forced cultural domination of the Khalkhas" creates a very negative image of Mongolia. Seriously!!! I don't know which country you are from, but you must be responsible for what you are saying. If you have seriously decided to make such a claim you must scientifically justify it. Don't just use the book of Dr. Pegg as a shield. I don't see you using this book "scientifilcally" as you like to express. Gantuya eng 12:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

In scientific world the citation of a sentence would be enough. Don´t argue without reading the book that I used always the same sentence. Be serious. Why should the sentence create a negative image of Mongolia – especially in the time we live today? As I know consists the Mongolian population of 21 ethnics (depending of the census) and not only one. I thought the Wikipedia cyclopedia is to give true informations and not statements (from persons with different motives) without any citation of a source. I gave a citation (If you want read it or not is your decision.) but I am still awaiting yours!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.97.82 (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)