Talk:Wii

Archives

Requested Move to Nintendo Wii (17th-22nd May 2006 - consensus: Not Moved) Archive Index (updated daily) Archive 1 (May 2005 - July 2005) Archive 2 (July 2005 - September 2005) Archive 3 (September 2005 - December 2005) Archive 4 (December 2005 - March 2006) Archive 5 (March 2006 - April 2006) Archive 6 (April 2006) Archive 7 (Pre-E3 2006) Archive 8 (E3 2006) Archive 9 (Post E3 2006 - 20th May 2006) Archive 10 (20th May 2006 - 31 May 2006) Archive 11 (June 2006) Archive 12 (July 2006) Archive 13 (August 2006) Archive 14 (Sept 1 2006 - Sept 13 2006) Archive 15 (Sept 14 2006 - Sept 30 2006) Archive 16 (Oct 1 2006 - Oct 27 2006) Archive 17 (Oct 28 2006 - Nov 4 2006) Archive 18 (Nov 5 2006 - Nov 14 2006) Archive 19 (Nov 15 2006 - Nov 21 2006) Archive 20 (Nov 21 2006 - Dec 13 2006) Archive 21 (Nov 15 2006 - Dec 15 2006) Archive 22 (Dec 15 2006 - Dec 31 2006) Archive 23 (Dec 31 2006 - Feb 16 2007) Archive 24 (Feb 17 2007 - Apr 18 2007) Archive 25 (Apr 4 2007 - Jul 2 2007) Archive 26 (Jul 3 2007 - Sept 2 2007

Frequently asked questions

These following questions have been addressed repeatedly (as documented here):

"Wii" vs. "Nintendo Wii"?

The first and most frequently asked question -- and the official trademark is just "Wii". See the Talk archives (pages 6 through 10) and the separately archived survey if you need the details.

"Wii" vs. "The Wii"?

Obviously, the official trademark is not The Wii™ but Wii™. People generally call the console "the Wii" (like a common noun), while Nintendo prefers to phrase it as just "Wii" (like a name) to utilize its similarity to we (e.g. "Wii will change gaming forever"). A discussion on the subject can be found in Archive 18.

"Wee" (as in urine)?

Multiple discussions on the subject have failed to achieve a consensus for or against including a reference to urine. However, please refrain from adding any such reference to the article. If you wish to bring this topic up on the talk page, please first read past discussions on the subject found in Archive 22 and Archive 23.

Wii Remote strap problems?

Information on Wii Remote strap failures and Nintendo's replacement offer are summarized in the article. Further details are documented in the Wii Remote article. Discussion on the subject can be found in Archive 21.

Wii's hardware WiiConnect 24 issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Original_Research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

Either source it with GameSpot or IGN or it's staying out.

The Nintendo WiFi comment about 32 players is not needed at all. This is boasting about it's online capabilities and this is not the section for that. Do we have editors going back gloating about the amount of players online on the Ps2, Xbox, and GC? Of course not. This is not going to be the case here as there is no incentive for having it. Lastly, router hardware problems are the least of all things to put under a technical problem about the Wii. --ChibiMrBubbles 11:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

(I've copied the above comment from my talk page, and copied my reply from his.)

I find it an odd assertion that GameSpot and IGN are the only reliable sources for information, and I'm not sure how you conclude from information being in the article that any editors are "gloating". I find the information relevant, and IGN seemed to think it important as well; I'm actually a bit disappointed the other articles you mentioned don't contain similar information. I'm still unclear as to your concerns about the router information, especially since Nintendo thinks it relevant enough to address at their own site. --Maxamegalon2000 13:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, talk about anal. Gamespot or Ign were examples. Ill be more vague in the future thanks to you. Routers would fall into flaw desing or outdated routers. WiFi up to 32 is flat out unneeded. So I implore you to find a good editorial for Wiiconnect24. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChibiMrBubbles (talk • contribs) 14:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious how you can be so certain that the reason the Wii is incompatible with some routers is that the routers don't follow the spec. It could just as easily be the Wii's fault. For the other two issues, I agree with you for the most part, but you really need to change your arrogant and condescending attitude. Tmdean 14:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong in summary:

The WiiGraphical glitch by WiiConnect24 is not sourced by a reliable source, in this case it is a Wii fansite. It is original research, and does not belong on Wikipedia.

The routers (all 3 of them that don't work) have had past history of not working with other consoles, such as the Xbox, and should not be brought up here. That's right, look up their history. This isn't a hardware problem with the Wii. Nintendo was bold to come out and say which lousy designed routers don't work with the Wii, Microsoft nor Sony aren't even going to bother.

The Nintendo WiFi statement about up to 32 players is flagrant fanboysim that implies this is a major contribution to the Wii. It is not, for no one knows what the players level cap is on multiplayer Wii games. The statement would make more sense on the DS's wiki article due to the built in pictochat having up to 16 players. This statement does not need to stay here, at all. There is no coherent reasoning since this is not part of the Wii's internal hardware. If you must mention something, do the Wii message board or Wii Friend codes cap.

And stay on topic, my attitude is not relevant to this (which is a slander giving the circumstances of the edits).--ChibiMrBubbles 14:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The section about the supposed WiiConnect24 problem should not be in the article. For one, there is no source with proof about WC24 causing any problems, just speculation. It is equally likely that it is due to a bad shipment of graphics chips. The chips get much hotter when actually used, than if the little heat produced by having your console on (even if the fan is on). If hotter temperatures aren't damaging the GPU, then why would the cooler temps? Second, many sites say that it is because the Wi-Fi chip and GPU are right next to each other. Well if you simply look at a pictures of the inside you will see that they are not. Zomic_13 17:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Firmware versions

I was wondering if we can include a section about firmware versions. I'm not going to push the matter but I wanna hear others opinions.--ChibiMrBubbles 20:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The Wii Menu article already has one. The main Wii article is a bit long as it is. PS: the most relevant parts of the firmware information are already contained in the Wii article, in its related sections. Just64helpin 21:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Already done. It was originally on the Wii Menu page, but there was discussion on that page about moving it. I just moved it. Zomic_13 21:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall any discussion on whether the section should be moved to the Wii article. Doing so pushes "Wii" past 60k in size. Just64helpin 21:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

There was discussion and agreement on the Wii Menu talk page. It really should've happened a while ago, but this is just more reason to move it. Zomic_13 21:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

A discussion and agreement has to happen on this page as well. Please don't revert until others can join the new discussion. Just64helpin 21:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well since we are having a new consensus, I'm going to put my two cents and say it belongs here on the Wii's systems page because some of the firmware functionality affects other things aside from the Wii's OS, such as adding AOSS on the internal WiFi menu settings. I also want to add that the Playstation 3 has it's own separate article for it's own firmware updates, not implying anything but giving suggestions for alternative resolutions.--ChibiMrBubbles 21:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting idea (about having a separate page). I would support that (and would be willing to put the page together and format it). Right now the info is pretty hard to read. I think there is justification for its own page. Zomic_13 21:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussions of moving the firmware to its own separate page should take place on the Wii Menu talk page.

Cost to build the Wii?

Any references that we can add which estimate how much the Nintendo Wii costs to build? I'm curious to know if they are selling it at a loss (as was done with the Cube). - Theaveng 14:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Wii is not sold at a loss. I don't believe GameCube (or any other Nintendo system) has sold at a loss. The reason Nintendo does not do this is because they are just a gaming company, and do not have other sectors to fall back on (like Sony and Microsoft do). It will be hard to find a reliable source that states exactly how much it costs to build a Wii, but there are plenty of sources out there if we want to add that it is not sold at a loss. Zomic_13 05:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC

Nintendo's profit-making is already in the Wii article. Just64helpin 11:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Video

I've recorded a video of two kids playing the Wii at the Wii Experience in Six Flags - Image:Wii_play.ogg. If the editors of this article want to add it, please do. ALTON .ıl 06:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sales numbers

4.23 million + 3.47 million + 2+ million + 138,192 + 6 thousand ~= 10.7+ million. It should be 9.8+ million if you approximate the Aussie numbers to 100,000 and disregard New Zealand. So the question is how do we provide a source for this updated figure? Because clearly just by looking at the numbers and quickly adding them can lead to errors as happened here (whoever did this added the 100,000 as 1 million). And we can't just use "punch these #s into a calculator" as the source. But I don't think there is an actual source for this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.125.60 (talk) 18:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This can be used to indicate 9.27 million units sold worldwide as of June 2007. --Silver Edge 23:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you think that this number would be better as it comes directly from nintendo? Also, if we leave it as is displaying the summed figure, how do we indicate that it is the sum of the previous numbers? -Mariokarter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.102.88 (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Europe numbers are far behind, AUS/NZ sales are too small to even count in the total. The Americas/Japan/Other configuration makes use of the official Q2/2007 Nintendo report (3.81 Americas/2.95 Japan/2.51 Other) updated with the lastest Media Create/NPD info, thus is the most reliable source we have. So please don't temper with it.--Exukvera 08:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No region's sales numbers are too small to include (assuming a reliable source is available). They should not be excluded for that reason, nor should a region's numbers be excluded if they are slightly out of date. A newer figure should be searched for, but the older figure should not be excluded. Zomic_13 18:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuits

Does anyone know whatever became of those crazy lawsuits against the Wii? Have they been dropped, or are they still ongoing? Seems odd because the article mentions them like they're all still current events. Nintenboy01 19:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Lawsuits can sometime last for years. They might still be ongoing. TJ Spyke 00:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Green Wellings lawsuit. Was claimed to be filed in 2006, but since then Green Welling have removed all reference to Nintendo and Wii from their web site and the only thing they left was a page where you can request a wrist strap replacement through Nintendo. Any reference to Nintendo or Wii has also been removed from their "Résumé of Cases" which details cases they have won and cases they are fighting for. If Nintendo did settle or even acknowledge Green Wellings in any way, you can bet that it would have been on their site and Green Wellings would have publicized it to the general media. That conclusion may be original research, but what isn't OR is the fact that Green Wellings have removed all traces of Nintendo and only left an application form for Wii wrist strap replacements, which goes straight through to Nintendo JayKeaton 11:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, more OR, but it looks like the Big N may have reached some confidential settlement or something with Green Wellings. Why I bet they even prompted the development of Wii Strap 4.0, hehe. I do wonder though whatever happened to the other cases... 216.166.78.9 22:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Should this be mentioned in the reception

Satoru Iwata mentions that the Wii is not a yet a success. Should this be mentioned at the reception, or in another article like his article page? Link for proof: [1] Magiciandude 18:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Around the launch of Wii, Iwata/Nintendo stated that Wii would not be considered a success unless it sold more than GameCube. That is going to happen very soon (in 10 months Wii has sold over half the amount GameCube sold in 71 months). It just sounds like a reiteration of what has already been said, however it is not in the article. It should be mentioned as it is a notable statement. 20:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zomic13 (talk • contribs)

It's set to overtake GameCube's sales in Japan and the UK by the end of the year. The region where it may take the longest is the United States since it's where the GameCube did the best (same thing with the N64, I think the US alone accounted for half of the N64's lifetime sales). Worldwide, it looks like the Wii will overtake the GameCube in early 2008 (which is just crazy when you think about it). TJ Spyke 02:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Wii is best seller

Financial Times states Wii is this generations best selling console in the known universe, despite coming a year after the 360 [[2]] JayKeaton 21:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The NPD and Enterbrain Also report this. Its an extremely large feat, considering how all nintendo's best franchises hasn't even come out yet. (mario galaxy, brawl, etc) Should we change it? Blackbird3216 22:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Change what? PS: the WP:LEAD should never contain information exclusive to itself. Just64helpin 23:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't exclusive to itself. It's also in the sales section. And why does Dawillsta keep editing it? Blackbird3216 23:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The wording is highly informal and tonally disconnected from the rest of the lead. It also contains an WP:OVERLINK. Just64helpin 23:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it should be included in the lead. — Malcolm (talk) 23:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It certainly needs to be rewritten before it can even be considered for the lead. Just64helpin 00:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning, but my 3rd "revision" was actually a new edit, so i won't get banned. If you want it rewritten, then you do it. Im used to writing stuff with alot of info —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackbird3216 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That burden lies on the supplier, not the remover. Just64helpin 00:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

So your saying i have to rewrite it. But if i re submit it, then people will say it doesn't belong, even though it's true, and should belong.Blackbird3216 00:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The inclusion is still open to arguments, so I'd suggest adding a proposed version of the material in this topic. Just64helpin 00:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

what do you mean proposed?Blackbird3216 00:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Er, your proposal on how the rewritten information could be added to the lead. How would it look like? Just64helpin 01:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine how about something like this?:

Although the console was launched last, it is currently the best seller in the generation(quote here). On Sept.12,2007 , Financial Times reports data from the NPD and (the other one) that proves the wii has outsold the 360, which was released a year earlier...

The iPod article mentions it is a best seller as of a certain date. Wii being a best seller as of a certain date, which doesn't seem debatable, then I don't see a big problem with mentioning it in the lead. In fact, it seems like something that is perfectly suited for the lead JayKeaton 17:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The iPod article is also somewhat unstable due to the constant influx of information relating to models and sales, so I wouldn't use that in an argument. Just64helpin 17:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Its not really an argument, as sales and popularity relate directly to the information demanded of a lead section. JayKeaton 17:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall the lead section "demanding" sales information, unless the sales are what make the subject notable. My argument is that placing a specific number will cause the lead to be endlessly edited, making it unstable. If the Wii sales are strong enough, it may warrant a general statement, but I don't think that's the case here. Just64helpin 17:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Numbers aren't specifically needed, at least for the lead. It looks like the other two console manufacturers muddy the waters by stating number of units shipped, not number of units sold, but independent sources seem to be wise to that and [many many sources] are saying that Wii is this generations best seller and for 2007 (the year we are currently in) it has consistently been the best seller by far also. JayKeaton 20:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, which is all that is needed for the WP:LEAD to keep it in proportion with the rest of the article. 14:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed for "bold" statement - I am thinking about citing it with info from wikipedia. How do I do that? Is it even possible to cite a wiki article with another wiki article?Blackbird3216 02:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

See WP:CITE. And, no, you can't use a Wikipedia article to cite another one (if the source exists on another Wikipedia article, use the source that that article uses). TJ Spyke 02:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Just64helping, it was better before. You trimmed down too many details. BTW, what happened to the wii picture?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackbird3216 (talk • contribs)

A general statement on the Wii sales lead is all that is needed. Any more detail would cause the lead to be a disproportionate summarization of the article. Further details should be added to the "System sales" section instead. Please read WP:LEAD for more information. Just64helpin 21:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: the segment I edited contained wiilinks to History of video game consoles (seventh generation) and Wii launch, both of which are already linked in the lead section (see WP:OVERLINK). The information cited from nintendowiifanboy.com was already mentioned in the Financial Times article. The Financial Times segment also had a <ref> footnote that was already used later in the article, and did not need to be re-written (see WP:FOOTNOTE). Just64helpin 21:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Nintendo and the Wii have been the top seller in NA for the entirety of 2007, since November 2006 in fact. I don't think the fact that the Wii has been outselling the competition is really debatable, and the fact that Wii is the best seller overall is more debatable, but not by much. There are no counterclaims to the Wii being the best selling console, other than "it is a controversial claim", which is not really good enough without something to back it up JayKeaton 13:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

IGN.com just posted new NPD sales data

Someone should update the sales totals. Here is the link: http://wii.ign.com/articles/820/820098p1.html 72.43.140.148 14:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

103 year old person playing the Wii

I thought you would like to see this: [3]. Report from The Sun newspaper of the UK has stated that pensioners up to 103 years of age have been playing the Wii! Of course, I've added that in the demographics section.--Alasdair 06:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. You would not see a 103 year old person playing PS3 or X360. Zomic_13 06:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

True, but I don't see why it belongs in the article... So what? LN3000 06:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning. We talk about Nintendo's goal to expand its appeal, and The Sun thought the company's success in this situation to be worth discussing. --Maxamegalon2000 07:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup, Nintendo has maintained that they want to widen their demographics, and this is certainly one extreme example of the adoption.--Alasdair 07:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is definitely worth mentioning. Just this morning Engadget posted an article about the success Wii has had with senior citizens. Read Here Zomic_13 13:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't just create a Wii cultural impact with all the information that is not really needed in the article (like using Wii for fitness, ancient people playing games, etc, etc, etc)? -- ReyBrujo 18:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The section on demographics was specifcally created to satisfy WP:LEAD, since editors previously warred in the lead section over whether or not the Wii "competes" with other seventh generation consoles. Just64helpin 18:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, a demographics section is well, a section on the type of market it targets, the customer base etc. Since it's here, let's make the best of it.--Alasdair 04:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Wii Commercials

Hey, i wanted to add this to the external links section. You can watch all Wii Commercials here. I was about to add it and then I saw the message saying I should bring it up on the talk page first, so i am :) Anyway, it's a good resource bc it's hard to find them on youtube or anywhere else. Anyway im adding it, but feel free to take it off if you dont think its a good resource --JasonHanson 16:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps they're hard to find because hosting them is a copyright violation. We don't link to copyright violations. --Maxamegalon2000 17:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

--Oh, sorry! --JasonHanson 17:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Which means that they can't be listed here either. TJ Spyke 02:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Advertisements most certainly CAN be listed on the talk page JH JayKeaton 07:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I meant here as in Wikipedia. Also, I don't think advertising sites that are committing copyright violations (by hosting copyrighted content without permission) is a good idea on talk pages either. TJ Spyke 03:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Name

That is absurd. The official trademark for Microsoft windows is just "Windows"... perhaps we should also name that article to just "Windows" rather than the already named "Microsoft Windows"? There is no double standards, if Ms windows article is named "Microsoft Windows" although the trademark is only "Windows", then so should this article be named "Nintendo Wii". Im seriously starting to think that some Nintendo representatives are lurring around Wikipedia.--78.86.117.164 01:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I move this here since the IP didn't bother to read the note about not replying in the FAQ section. To answer, the reason the article on the Microsoft software isn't at Windows is because its not the primary subject of the name Windows (the only other possible name would be "Windows (software)", which is not a good article name). This is not the case here. The trademark is Wii, that is the common name, and there is nothing else that would use the name. So the article will not be moved. TJ Spyke 01:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Infact, let it be called just "wii", people will have harder time finding it. Specially people who still spell it as "we" or "wee".--78.86.117.164 01:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

That...that made no sense.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously a minority of people. On the Windows argument, the operating system isn't the only thing in existance that uses that name. Wii, on the other hand, is the only thing that has that name. On top of that, the articles for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 currently do not include the name of the company that makes those consoles, because the name of the company is not a part of each specific console's official title, just as Nintendo is not an official part of the Wii's name. Disaster Kirby^Talk 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, shouldn't this page be Nintendo Wii? Mick 96 08:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Please click here. Just64helpin 10:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Which version?

There's currently appears to be a reversion conflict [4]. Which version is the correct one? --Russoc4 17:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, the revert was just an error by the user. Just64helpin 18:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. That's what I get when I think I'm only making a small edit (I guess it was an older revision). Sometimes the extra features you think are helping you will get you into trouble. I figured out what I was doing wrong (Twice!). Sorry for the confusion. LN3000 18:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Unprotection

Does anyone else want to experiment with unprotecting this article? The Placebo Effect 16:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Every time the page gets unprotected, it gets vandalized pretty quickly (IIRC, it got vandalized less than 10 minutes after being unprotected the last time). The article pretty much has unofficially permanent semi-protection because of that. It's up to an admin, but I would suggest keeping it the way it is. The only people who can't edit are IP's and accounts less than 4 days old. TJ Spyke 23:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess you're right. Lets try sometime after Christmas, when both Galaxy and Brawl have come out. The Placebo Effect 23:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Wii Pricing

What is the current price on a Wii? I didn't see it in the article, and I thought it might be a good thing to add. BaldurtheGreat 18:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

MSRP =$250 The Placebo Effect 19:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Technically it's $249.99 (in the US). I don't think it had dropped in price anywhere yet, so the launch prices (see Wii launch) should still be the current prices. TJ Spyke 05:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe we are meant to avoid listing the price unless the price itself is notable. Otherwise it brings up the issue of trying to update the price everytime it drops aswell as becomes an issue of which countries prices to list. You wouldn't really expect to see the price of something in an encyclopedia. Rekija 03:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the pricing's been mentioned in the Wii launch.--Alasdair 11:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Pricing is a useful tool for comparing worldwide costs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.74.15 (talk) 13:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Wii Optical Disc

Not alot of info is posted about this in the article. For example, it's storage capacity is not mentioned. Is it known? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.110.193.166 (talk) 11:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

That should be covered at the Nintendo optical discs article. Just64helpin 11:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

New system sales figures

A semi-annual Earnings release is scheduled to be released by Nintendo in two weeks (October 25), according to http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/schedule/index.html. Socby19 02:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)