Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot/Evidence

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Evidence presented by Jehochman

My involvement in blocking Sadi Carnot

Mediation in April 2007 - Six months from investigation to block

Starting in April 23, 2007, I served as the mediator in a case, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-23 Capture-bonding, between User:Sadi Carnot and User:Hkhenson.

The mediation case arose shortly after Physchim62 reverted Hkhenson's edits to Capture bonding to restore Sadi's favored version, [1] and then immediately protected the page. [2] Physchim62 commented on the dispute at the start of mediation. [3] Hkhenson objected to Physchim62's view of the situation as "biased". [4] After inspecting Physchim62's last 5,000 contributions, I do not think Physchim62 is biased, but I want everyone to understand that this perception could have been held by a reasonable person.

Sadi accepted my services as a neutral party[5] and thanked me when the case ended.[6] I also thanked him.[7] I've been aware of Sadi for six months. Any actions I've taken to judge him have not been hasty. Far from it, because I liked him and did not want to believe that the allegations were true.

AfD

I had one eye on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georgi Gladyshev which involved Sadi Carnot, and placed this prescient warning at the top of the debate: [8].

ANI thread, October 2007

For full details, the case file is located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Sadi Carnot. Coren's evidence below explains why Sadi Carnot was blocked.

After blocking Sadi Carnot I requested discussion:

• "The account hasn't edited since October 10 when the hoax was unmasked at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human chemistry. To prevent further damage or spamming, I am going to indef the account because it's clear to me that it's been used primarily for long term, subtle vandalism and COI editing, causing serious, widespread damage. Let's discuss this and see if any admin is willing to unblock. Establishing a community ban will be helpful because it will allow us to immediately revert and block any socks that show up." [9]

I also offered terms for unblocking:

• "If Sadi Carnot wishes to continue editing, he can ask to be unblocked, and we can discuss the conditions on which that will occur. An indefinite block doesn't mean "forever." It means, "until the problem is resolved." I personally wouldn't unblock him until he recognizes that what he's been doing isn't compatible with Wikipedia's purpose, and he undertakes not to edit the articles or subject areas where problems have occurred in the past. Additionally, he should join WP:ADOPT to be paired with an experienced editor who will monitor and assist his editing to make sure there are no relapses. Bduke, I too think Sadi Carnot may be a good faith editor, but he doesn't understand how to edit Wikipedia and he's causing tremendous damage that involves many articles. My block is designed to prevent further harm until we can come up with a better arrangement." [10]

I invited comments again:

• "Folks, User:Sadi Carnot has been indefinitely blocked. As requested by User:Coren, this will be considered a community ban if no administrator is willing to unblock. If anyone sees a reason to unblocked after reading the above evidence please comment." [11]

I noted that there was evidence of bad faith by Sadi Carnot, and reiterated that we should not unblock him yet, but I would consider unblocking with controls in place:

• "I think the use of multiple accounts is very problematic. If you look at the sheer volume of self-promotional links and POV pushing, this looks like a determined COI editor who does a few good edits to establish cover. Of course, as I said above, if the editor is willing to admit mistakes and agree on editing restrictions and mentorship to avoid further problems, I am open to him returning. However, I think it would be a serious mistake to let him edit again before we have those assurances." [12]

At this point, the only opposition was User:Voltron, a sockpuppet of banned user user:EddieSegoura: [13]

Physchim62 opposes, and unblocks 1 minute later, without discussion

Physchim62 unblock before engaging in discussion. He recognized that this was an unusual step and said that he wanted Sadi to have a chance to comment, although Sadi had not requested to be unblocked, nor taken any interest in the case. [14]

Physchim62 reverts maintenance tags, issues spurious warnings, and makes uncivil comments

In addition to reverting my block, Physchim62 tendentiously reverted all the maintenance and sockpuppet tags I had applied related to Sadi Carnot and gave me a dispruption warning.[15] He did these reversions without discussion. P62 also issued a formal disruption warning to me, for working on improvements to policy. [16] P62 has expressed his hope that Arbcom would give me "the cluestick beating that you deserve." [17]

I started a thread at WP:AN to discuss what should be done about Physchim62's peculiar actions. [18]

Physchim62 attempts to poison the well

Physchim62 has mis-characterized evidence on this very page in order to damage my reputation and poison the well. [19]

He claims that I placed maintenance tags on articles touched by Sadi Carnot. Under the circumstances, this was prudent. P62 demanded a list of articles from me that I believe to be tainted. My answer is that any article edited by Sadi Carnot should be checked. See edit history. I did tag Sadi's user accounts as sockpuppets to assist in case of future sockpuppetry by him. This was discussed at WP:AN, see [20], and I have not retagged the userpages, per the consensus.

Physchim62 claims that I have changed policy against consensus and to support my case. In fact, I have been a long term editor at WP:COI [21][22][23] and continue to participate there in the normal course of editing. One of my "abusive" diffs that he cites is a reversion of vandalism. [24] Another [25] is based on a talk page discussion with an uninvolved editor. Another is a clarification that COI is a subset of NPOV. [26].

I have also occasionally participated at WP:SOCK [27] and the page is on my watchlist. When somebody deleted an entire section without discussion, I reverted [28] discussed [29] and revised.[30] This normal editing.

My activity at WP:BAN has been widely announced as part of a policy RFC. [31] There have been extensive discussions. [32] The net results have been modest clarifications in the written policy. [33] Physchim62 reverted my edits for no reason [34] and then was himself reverted by another community member.[35] P62 is the one who went against the established consensus, and caused the page to be protected.[36]

In summary, Physchim62's campaign to discredit the person who brought this arbitration is a red herring. - Jehochman ^Talk 16:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Physchim62 engages in forum shopping

After this request for arbitration was filed, Physchim62 has attempted to use other fora to obtain sanctions against Hkhenson, [37] and against me. [38]

Evidence presented by Coren

More to come, this is a first draft

In this section, I use the Sadi Carnot and Wavesmikey‎ identity as one; they are separated in time but not in the nature or scope of behavior.

Sadi Carnot creates contents designed to obfuscate future spam insertions

As exemplar, one of his first such articles, Human bonding: Created [39] (not forgetting to add links all over the 'pedia (also [40] [41], etc), which looks a little WP:ORish, but at [42] he starts inserting links to his site. Followed by inserting subtle but continuous reference to chemistry [43] so that by the time his main thesis goes in [44] it does not look entirely out of place.

Sadi Carnot marks sweeping edits as minor, including spam insertions

Large edit: [45] Spam: [46] [47]

He also misrepresents the nature and scope of his edits [48] in the summary

Sadi Carnot misrepresents or falsifies sources to support his OR

This has been examined in detail in some of the AfDs, the cases put forth in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human thermodynamics 2 (Wavesmickey) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human chemistry (Sadi Carnot) are especially eloquent. (Not being an editor, I am unable to provide relevant diffs from the deleted articles).

Sadi Carnot damages legitimate science articles to push his OR

[49] [50]

Sadi Carnot knew or should have known his behavior was unnaceptable

His new identity created barely 2 days after his previous identity's last "real" edit, less than a week after his most recent OR article was deleted. He created the new identity immediately after wiping his user talk and started immediately again with his previous editing pattern.

One of his first articles was quickly deleted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human thermodynamics, and he admited there he shouldn't have written it. Then comes Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human thermodynamics 2 less than a month later. He was told in the large number of VfD (then) and AfDs (now) for his original research how and why it was not welcome, but persisted for over two years.

The validity of Sadi Carnot's contributions outside the contested area is disputed

At least some administrators and editors [51] [52] have disputed that Sadi Carnot's contributions are generally useful.

Miscellaneous evidence of bad faith

This page in his userspace is especially worrisome.

Evidence presented by Physchim62

• 20 October, 03:20 (UTC) Coren (talk · contribs) reports his concerns about Sadi Carnot (talk · contribs) at WP:ANI
• 20 October, 05:11 (UTC) Jehochman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocks Sadi Carnot with the summary

"Disruption only account - long term, subtle vandalism, spamming and COI editing of many articles to promote the owner's book, website and fringe theories"

Initial report to first block (1h 51min)

all users are represented here, although I have not mentioned a few inconsequential contributions.

• 03:31 (UTC) Jehochman, to say that he had asked Hkhenson (talk · contribs) to comment
• 03:39 (UTC) Coren to report that SC had been notified of the discussion (notification)
• 04:08 (UTC) Kww (talk · contribs) to accuse SC of sockpuppetry with Wavesmikey (talk · contribs), calling SC a "dangerous editor", "incapable of distinguishing fact from fiction" or alternatively "an elaborate hoax"
• 05:00 (UTC) Coren to mention that he had found 132 links to websites associated with Sadi Carnot, the vast majority of which were on articles at AfD
• 05:01 (UTC) SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) to report his experiences with SC on the now definct WikiProject Extra-Long Article Committee
• 05:09 (UTC) Jehochman to report his intention to block indefinitely and to establish a community ban: "Let's discuss this and see if any admin is willing to unblock." This was also the first mention that SC had not edited since 10 October. Jehochman also refers to deleted article Human chemistry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (AfD) as a "hoax" which was "unmasked" at AfD.

First block

Disruption-only account

• Sadi Carnot first edited on 27 December 2005 [53]
• He has 8593 edits to English Wikipedia [54]

Vandalism

• A content dispute is not vandalism
• There is no reason to assume that SC does not believe his own theories; indeed the fact that he runs three websites promoting them and has written a book about them would tend to suggest that he does.

Spamming

• Wikipedia:Spam (guideline) suggests warning and meta-blacklisting as a response to spam: neither of these were attempted before blocking

Conflict of interest

• Wikipedia:Conflict of interest (guideline) suggests warning as a response to CoI: this may or may not have been attempted before blocking

Sockpuppetry

• In addition to the reasons on the block log, Jehochman took the following actions
  • replaced User:Sadi Carnot with {{sockpuppeteer}} [55]
  • listed Wavesmikey as a "confirmed sockpuppet" this was done by Irishguy (talk · contribs) [56]
  • listed an IP address as a "suspected sockpuppet" [57]
• Wavesmikey (talk · contribs) has not edited since 15 December 2005 (before User:Sadi Carnot began editing), except to ask for the user page to be deleted [58]
• the IP address edited a single article on 24 May 2007 [59]

First block to first unblock (33h 37min)

• 20 October, 06:25 (UTC) Hkhenson admits PoV-forking between capture bond and capture-bonding, also confirms that SC is behind humanthermodynamics.com
• 09:44 (UTC) Bduke mentions that SC has contributed in good faith to thermodynamics articles
• 10:37 (UTC) Carcharoth suggests blacklisting SC's websites as a possible solution, and provides details of those websites
• 10:39 (UTC) Carcharoth points out Hkhenson's COI on capture-bonding
• 12:26 (UTC) Jehochman, in setting out his conditions for unblocking SC: "I think Sadi Carnot may become a good faith editor, but right now he doesn't understand how to edit Wikipedia"
• 14:00 (UTC) Kww asks for Wavesmikey to be blocked, claiming that SC "will just immediately switch to his sock when he feels the need."
• 14:14 (UTC) Jehochman reports the block of Wavesmikey, asks Kww to investigate disruptive use of the account
• 17:05 (UTC) Hkhenson comments on SC's academic qualifications, points to Talk:Capture-bonding as an example of SC's editing
• 20:29 (UTC) Jehochman states that the indefinite block will be considered a community ban if no admin is willing to unblock
• 20:52 (UTC) Coren supports ban
• 21:17 (UTC) Bduke states that he will not unblock, but points out SC's useful contributions on Entropy and Energy
• 21 October, 02:40 (UTC) MER-C (talk · contribs) reports apparent cross-wiki spamming (227 links)
• 02:40 (UTC) MER-C supports community ban, claiming that SC is "one of the worst cases of x-wiki spamming I have ever seen"
• 03:02 (UTC) Jehochman reports three websites associated with SC to the global spam blacklist
• 03:56 (UTC) SvNH (talk · contribs) reports that only a small minority of spammed links are outside of enwiki, and that these might have come about by innocent Transwiki
• 04:05 (UTC) Rocksanddirt (talk · contribs) endorses community ban with reason: "socking, spamming, original fringe research pov pushing (if not warring)"
• 06:10 (UTC) MER-C left messages at WikiProject Engineering and WikiProject Chemical and Bio Engineering
• 07:04 (UTC) Bduke left messages at WikiProject Chemistry and WikiProject Physics
• 07:10 (UTC) MER-C retracts claim that SC is "one of the worst cross-wiki spammers ever", continues to support ban because "spammers aren't welcome here"
• 15:47 (UTC) Physchim62 opposes ban, citing SC's useful contributions and the complete lack of evidence of sockpuppetry
• 15:48 (UTC) Physchim62 unblocks with link to ANI comment

Reactions of Jehochman

It is instructive to consider Jehochman's contributions to the ANI discussion after SC had been unblocked by Physchim62:

• 21 October, 16:08 (UTC) suggests that Physchim62 had not read the evidence and unblocked as per WP:IDONTLIKEIT
• 16:25 (UTC) suggests that a change of account name in December 2005 is evidence of bad faith
• 22 October, 13:04 (UTC) claims that SC was notified "dozens of times"
• 13:39 (UTC) accuses Itub (talk · contribs) of tendentious editing for questioning the reality of the "notifications"
• 17:23 (UTC) claims that Physchim62's "friendship with Sadi Carnot" (sic) "prevents [him] from seeing what the rest of use see"
• 23 October, 02:21 (UTC) requests details of valuable contributions from Count Iblis (talk · contribs), dispite the many other editors who had attested to the value of SC's contributions in certain areas
• 14:13 (UTC) "Sadi Carnot has been using tactics to evade the normal controls on POV pushing" – said tactics are never specified
• 16:20 (UTC) "Physchim62 knew about Sadi's editing problems, and did nothing to stop them." – Physchim62 had merely mentioned knowing of SC's unusual opinions, not the fact that he was writing Wikipedia articles about them

Jehochman also placed {{expert}} and {{COI}} tags on at least one article [60] for the sole reason that they had been significantly edited by Sadi Carnot. Dispite a request, he has yet to supply the list of articles which he considers tainted for assessment by the relevant WikiProjects.

Jehochman has also edited at least three policy pages related to this dispute since it arose. His edits appear to be an attempt to "fix" these policies in favour of his own views and actions, and do not appear to be the result of any consensus.

• WP:SOCK [61][62]
• WP:BAN [63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70][71]
• WP:COI [72][73][74][75][76]

Username changes

From Wikipedia:Username policy#Changing your username:

"Usernames can be changed by bureaucrats. You can request a name change at Wikipedia:Changing username. If you have few edits, it may be easier and quicker to simply register a new account with a different name."

From Wikipedia:Changing usernames guidelines#When changing usernames is probably appropriate

"Personal preference: If a user would simply prefer another username, and there is no common sense reason (or reason listed below) to decline the request, renaming is typically appropriate.´´"

Wikipedia:Changing username, version of 26 December 2005, the day before Sadi Carnot started editing under that username. Note the final sentence of the lead section:

"If you have very few edits, it is far quicker to just create a new account."

Reply to Hkhenson

Yes Keith, I consider your views to be pseudoscience and your actions in forcing them on Wikipedia, to the exclusion of other points of view, to be disruptive. This is why I passed the mediation onto someone else (Jehochman took it up). I don't think this is at all relevant to this case, except to make your views on Sadi Carnot devoid of interest in the resolution of this case. Physchim62 (talk) 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Itub

Sadi Carnot is not a "disruption-only account"

When he stuck to mainstream science, Sadi Carnot contributed prolifically. Some examples of reasonable articles started by him:

• History of the molecule (latest version that only has contribs by SC) - Has some external link spam, but article content is mostly OK, and is being kept after some pruning.
• History of quantum mechanics (latest SC-only version)
• Molecular orbital theory (latest SC-only version) - generally OK, although some content was later moved to other articles.
• Transition state theory (latest SC-only version) - a bit short and there is some argument for merging it with transition state, but it is factual and mainstream.
• Reflections on the Motive Power of Fire (latest SC-only version).
• Thomsen-Berthelot principle (last SC-only version) - lacking sources, but seems reasonable enough for a start. I'm certain that he didn't make this principle up.

Sadi Carnot also made some useful contributions to other articles, such as Timeline of chemistry, which went on to become a featured list.(sample diff).

He participated in many discussion pages in articles related to thermodynamics, and while I wouldn't say he was always right, he was generally civil and provided references in many cases. I can add diffs about this later, but I think the point is been made that this was not a "disruption-only" account as described by Jehochman in his block note.

Besides Physchim62 and myself, two other editors who frequent chemistry topics described his contributions in this area in a positive way: Nick Y. and Bduke.

I won't speculate as to whether SC's good contributions were made in a deliberate attempt to inspire confidence, as I refuse to engage in mind-reading.

AfD's were inappropriately used for discussing user bans

This is in response of Kww's complaint that Physchim62 distorts the timeline by starting from the discussion at AN/I. AfD is a forum for deciding what to do with an article. It is not an appropriate forum for debating what is to be done to an editor. Nevertheless, some people repeatedly used it to cry for a lifetime ban on Sadi Carnot, which can only have contributed to the perception of the whole situation as a "witch hunt":

• First post by Kww
• Second post by Kww
• Third post by Kww
• Fourth post by Kww
• Fifth post by Kww
• Earle Martin
• Ekjon Lok
• First post by Tree Kittens
• Second post by Tree Kittens

One can hardly say that there was a long "consensus" on the ban because a few people called for it at AfD. I had arguments against the ban in mind, but refrained from posting them there because it was the wrong place. The only thing I posted at AfD regarding the ban was a suggestion that the issue be taken to RFC or some other form of dispute resolution. [77]. I'm glad that, soon thereafter, Jehochman made the message clear by posting a box about it at the top of the AfD nomination: [78]. When the question of the ban was finally taken to AN/I, the indefinite block was put in place within hours, before I even noticed that there was a discussion going on.

Something that also contributes to the perception of this situation as a "witch hunt" is that people who don't support banning Sadi Carnot are automatically suspected sockpuppets, as was the case when Kww requested a check user of Physchim62 (which was soon rejected as unfounded).

Evidence presented by TimVickers

Sadi Carnot attempted to deceive readers

I have restored two of the versions of the deleted article "Human chemistry" at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot/Evidence/Human chemistry version 1 and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot/Evidence/Human chemistry version 2. Version 2 was created by Sadi Carnot during the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human chemistry using material from another of his articles, Human molecule.

Version 1 - Argues that "In science, human chemistry is the study of reactions between individuals who are viewed as "human molecules" or chemical species and with the energy, entropy, and work that quantify these processes."

Supports the thesis of the article using a work of fiction by Goethe that is described by Sadi as a "chemical treatise on the origin of love", a book as containing, in Sadi's words "the implicit assumption that humans are reactive species", a book by Charles Galton Darwin that uses this idea as a analogy, a joke article in a student magazine called "The Thermodynamics of Love", and a serious article in National Geographic on brain biochemistry - a completely separate subject.

Version 2 - Created 6 days into the AfD, when Sadi had been made aware that his previous version was unacceptable. The article argues that - "Human chemistry is a theory that describes the reactionary interaction between individuals who are viewed as "human molecules" or "chemical species","

Supports the thesis of the article using the novel by Goethe, the book as containing, in Sadi's words "the implicit assumption that humans are reactive species", a book by Charles Galton Darwin that uses this idea as a analogy, new material referenced to his website humanthermodynamics.com, a discussion of a chemist who described people as molecules in lectures - but who is quoted in the actual source cited to support this as saying "Dr Müller hopes his analogies will not be taken too seriously: "Obviously people are much more complicated than molecules—cartoon science is just a way to help someone understand something." - a bizarre aside into nanotechnology, the joke article "The Thermodynamics of Love", and the article in National Geographic on brain biochemistry.

Sadi's response to six days of sustained and detailed criticism of his original research and misrepresentation of sources was to create a longer version of the article containing yet more original research, unreliable sources, and misrepresented sources. This was a deliberate and sustained attempt to deceive. Tim Vickers 19:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidence presented by KWW

Physchim62's perspective of the "beginning" distorts the timeline significantly

Physchim62 presents a timeline for this discussion which would make it appear that from beginning to end of the analysis took somewhere around five hours. This neglects the time that was spent during the AFD discussions. This began at 6:48 AM on Oct. 4th initial AFD for Human Chemistry, and continued through the AFD for Georgi Gladyshev. For those of us that had been actively working on and reviewing the issue, all of these provided an essentially continuous discussion. Jehocham's block came after 16 days of deliberation by many parties, not the two hours that Physchim62's timeline would present. My statements, which Physchim62 presents as instantaneous, came 15 days after I first started to look into this. There was no rush to judgement ... there was a detailed analysis performed by Coren and Tree Kittens that presents a compelling argument.Kww 00:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Timing is always hard to see in hindsight

My checkuser on Physchim62 was done at a time when he had arbitrarily removed a block on Sadi Carnot without any support from any other user or admin. His actions appeared irrational and arbitrary, and would be what I would expect if an abuser had, over the course of two years, created a respectable persona for an admin.

If a persistent vandal did have the foresight to reserve one account for nothing but ethical behaviour in order to get adminship for that account, and use that account to run interference for his main account, the only way to discover that would be the use of checkuser. Asking the question is not the same as making an accusation ... it's just prudent. I'm not aware of any discreet way of asking for a checkuser. If there was, I would have used it.Kww 14:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Wavesmikey had a long edit trail

In Physchim62's section on username changes, he draws attention to a sentence about people with "very few" edits. Wavesmikey has a edit trail of 300 entries that have survived the deletion of much of his work. Not my definition of "very few."Kww 13:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Keith Henson

Physchim62 is being uncivil among other things

I wasn't going to comment here, but Physchim62 distorts what I said.

"Hkhenson admits PoV-forking between capture bond and capture-bonding, also confirms that SC is behind humanthermodynamics.com"

"Admits" sounds like a criminal confession. I stated that I was going to clean out Sadi's BS in Talk:Capture-bonding ten days in advance of the time I did it. There were no objections.

I did not state that Sadi was behind humanthermodynamics.com, only that he on his user page and "Libb Thims" of that web site both claimed to have double majors in ChE and EE, Libb Thims from U of Michigan at Ann Arbor. I said I had verified that a real person, MK, the person who had registered the web site, humanthermodynamics.com, had graduated with a double major in ChE and EE on 4/30/1998.

"Hkhenson comments on SC's academic qualifications, points to Talk:Capture-bonding as an example of SC's editing"

I don't know directly about SC's academic qualifications. As above, he (or she) claims on Sadi's user page to have a double major in ChE and EE. "Libb Thims" claims on humanthermodynamics.com the same and that website claims that "Libb Thims" and "Sadi Carnot" are the same identity. MK, the person in whose name humanthermodynamics.com is registered does seem to have such a history. Unless you know more, you are jumping to conclusions. (Though you are probably right.)

An engineering degree or even two of them is not of itself qualification for editing or judging others edits on psychology, evolution or the intersection of these subjects in evolutionary psychology. [[79]]

Actually, in my non-specialist opinion, many modern management techniques make use of capture-bonding! But then my views on the evolutionary basis seem to be different from other authors'.... Physchim62 (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[[80]]

Physchim62, could you describe what Xerox sales or management techniques have in common with what the SLA did to Patty Hearst to induce capture-bonding? (". . . blindfolded, imprisoned in a narrow closet, and physically and sexually abused.") To the best of my knowledge there are none, but I have not been a customer of Xerox for a long time. Keith Henson 21:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, actually! Both depend on controlling the social interactions of the individual concerned. Only an explanation of this type will explain all of the phenomena which people try to associate with "capture-bonding". Physchim62 (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

see also [[81]]

One of Sadi's more annoying habits was to shift around other people's text on discussion pages and compact out the white space. [[82]]

There was a regular dog pile of editors and admins, all supporting Sadi and not a one of them with a clue about the topic.

There is a good deal more here [[83]] and at the bottom of the talk page for capture-bonding.

Keith Henson 20:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)