Talk:Igor Stravinsky

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• /Archive 1 – created page, and moved there all discussion topics through 2005, and selected, apparently moot, topics through February 2007. —Turangalila (talk) 10:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Source?

In the article there is this claim:

[As he himself said, with these premieres his intention was "[to send] them all to hell".]

Anyone know the source for this? I have never seen, or heard of, this in years of studying Stravinsky ... but then, of course, I haven't read absolutely everything. So this quote surprised me a little, and I should be really glad to know where it comes from.

TIA,

~Karl

I remember reading something like that, yep, but can't remember where... --Deadworm222 23:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

I can't find a source for this other than wikipedia and it's mirror sites.

Other quotes by Stravinsky on the night appear to contradict this motive:

"I left the hall in rage," Stravinsky said of the crowd's reaction. "The music was so familiar to me; I loved it, and I could not understand why people who had not yet heard it wanted to protest in advance."

(cited in "The Enjoyment of Music (Ninth edition)", Norton, in addition to countless online sources). I don't think his intention was to incite a riot or rejection of the work. Moltovivace 00:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidently, the Guardian magazine, G2, quoted this in February 2006. Doubt they would make it up. But it could be lazy journalists using poor research. Who knows with journalists...

pulcinella

Just a quick remark. Stravinsky borrowed for his pulcinella ballet musical motives from Pergolesi, as the article tells. However, it is now know from some time the music he was borrowing from was not Pergolesi's but from a dutch nobleman who wanted to remain anonymous: Baron Van Wassenaer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unico_Wilhelm_van_Wassenaer

Stravinsky and Fascism

Since I don't have the time to do this myself - maybe somebody else could do some research in this field... ?! Apparently Stravinsky was quite an admirer of Mussolini and was regarded as the official composer of Fascism in 1930's Italy. I've added a rather lame sentence on this at the end of the introduction. Maybe somebody could expand on this somewhere in the article? Of course such political involvement raises questions as to the fascist character of Stravinsky's musical aesthetic - at least during a phase of his life.

While I think it's significant enough to be mentioned somewhere in the article, I strongly suggest NOT putting it at the end of the introduction, which is where you normally put the "thesis statement" or fullest overall significance of the composer. It probably belongs in chronological order in the bio, with some details to flesh it out. (Assuming it is true; I've never heard this before myself, and works like the Symphony in Three Movements are usually interpreted as a fierce attack on fascism.) Antandrus (talk) 16:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually the Grove article goes into this in some detail. Stravinsky did extravagantly praise Mussolini, calling him (late 1920s) as the "savior of Italy ... and let us hope, of Europe". The Nazis included Stravinsky's music in their Entartete Musik exhibit, and infuriated him by mistaking him for a Jew--evidently Stravinsky also was not without anti-Semitism, and it appears in his letters. Antandrus (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not surprised you hadn't heard of Stravinsky's fascist leanings - I was pretty astonished myself, having (as I suppose we all do) a rather facile understanding of fascist culture. I came upon this in connection with the American poet Ezra Pound, who (as I suppose you do know) was a staunch supporter of fascist Italy. In this sense I've been thinking of starting a 'Fascist culture' discussion with regard to the 'Fascism' article which hardly makes any reference to the cultural implications of Fascism at all. We tend to think of European 1920-30's intellectuals as hounded into exile - and yet a leading number of artists and thinkers were rather enthusiastic about right-wing tyranny: the philosophers Heidegger, Oswald Spengler and Arnold Gehlen (in fact the whole German so-called 'Conservative revolution'), the legal theorist Carl Schmitt, the German writer Ernst Jünger, the Norwegian writer Knut Hamsun, Ezra Pound - Stravinsky! - d'Annunzio, Marinetti and the Italian Futurist movement, even the German writer Thomas Mann was thinking of returning to the Third Reich from his exile in the mid-1930's because he thought that Germany might be undergoing a revolution worthy of support. As for my 'lame' sentence in the introduction: what I rather like about it is the idea of shocking readers into an alternative perspective on Stravinsky (and I suppose established avant-garde culture). But I know what you mean - do as you think fit.

Criticism

In his book Philosophy of Modern Music (1948) Theodor Adorno calls Stravinsky an acrobat, a civil servant, a tailor's dummy, hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, fascist, and devoted to making money.

Many of those designations refer to what are considered stylistic periods, the alleged infantilism pertains to this category, while others are said to label oftener employed techniques apparent in Stravinsky's music, those believed to artificially sustain a leaning known as comprising a certain disorder for example, but none to foolishly delineate Stravinsky's personality. In the appendix we find the author opposing this misconception, fortunately losing the article's acceptance by degrees:

Nothing would be more false than to interpret Stravinky's music analogously to what a German fascist once called the sculpting of the mentally ill. Rather its concern is to dominate schizophrenic traits through the aesthetic consciousness. (In so doing, it would hope to vindicate insanity as true health.)

Edited mainly for aesthetic reasons. I'm very pleased with the changes already made. Saiken 10:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Issues with the article

The article is quite well-written, my issues are exclusively technical and style points. However, I was guided to this page by a list of long-featured articles not yet featured on the Main Page, but I do not believe this one is ready. It currently has almost no (only 1) inline citation for all of that text and has very large lists of compositions that should be summarized and split-off into "List of musical works by Igor Stravinsky" or something like that. As I said, mostly technical, and I'm sure any of the original authors can fix them easily. Staxringold 11:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I intend to list this at Featured Article Review some time in the next few months. Tony 16:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This article has no sources why is it a FA? It should be taken off until it has some sources. Sorry that was me I forgot to sign in.--Team6and7 23:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I added {{Infobox musical artist}} to the article. I am unsure of some of the information, so if anyone sees anything that can be added or changed, please do so. Thanks. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

No inline citations?

How in the world was this article featured as Today's FA? It has absolutely no inline citations or other reference marks. A great article, but without some kind of footnotes, it really doesn't deserve FA status, let alone Main Page FA status. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 00:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this is really bothering me too. --Wafulz

Ditto.QuixoticKate 16:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's unusual for Today's Featured Article to have been promoted to FA so long ago: take a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Igor Stravinsky and you'll see it was promoted in July 2004 (although the last "support" vote came a year later!), back when inline citations were not yet expected of FAs, and back when being well-written and interesting was. —Angr 16:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Saying that someone "sucked" at something doesn't seem like appropriate language for an encyclopedia (in the paragraph about his early learning).71.111.213.41 17:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That was doubtless vandalism. If it hasn't been removed already, I'll remove it now. Thanks for noticing! —Angr 17:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah the fact it has no inline citations is worrying. I expect to see it at WP:FAR soon. LuciferMorgan 21:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

2 Contrabassoons Issue

The statement that The Rite is the first work to involve two contrabassoons is dubious. I think that that was done earlier by Berlioz, probably in the Symphonie funebre et triomphale. (It might also occur in a very small handful of works by other composers prior to Stravinsky.) BTW, The Rite also uses two bass clarinets, which was also very unusual at the time.

arcueil

Taruskin

I'm amazed to see that there is no reference anywhere to Richard Taruskin's "Stravinsky and the Russian Traditions" (1996), a 2-volume study that challanges much of the received wisdom about Stravinsky. This is an absolutely major source, highly praised by critics and the recipient of many awards, including the Kurt Weill Foundation Prize for the best book of 1996 on the musical stage. I've added this study to the "Sources," but since I'm no authority on Stravinsky, I'm reluctant to incorporate Taruskin's findings into this article; but I definitely think that someone should take on this task.

Please sign you posts on talk pages. Why add it as a source when nobody has added anything from it?--Wormsie 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Pablo Picasso's portrait of Stravinsky

I do love that picture; we need it in better quality, since this is such a popular article! Glassonion1542 13:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Stravinsky's Commissions

Doesn't Craft say somewhere that Stravinsky often sought out the commissions after he had begun composing the work? Signinstranger 16:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Treatment of the music...

As far as I can see, it looks to me like the bio sect. just needs someone to go through and find sources for stuff, & maybe clarify a point or two. However, leaving aside the citation problems, the entire treament of Stravinsky's music in this article as it stands — ie: "Stylistic periods"; "Influence and innovation"; and "Criticism" — strikes me as problematic at the very least. It's full of assertions w/ no source, dubious or at least debatable analysis, and sweeping generalizations. A few random points:

• Doesn't Firebird draw on folk mythology"? I actually thought Petroushka was drawn, at least in part, from the Commedia dell'arte.
• Is the Augurs of Spring really the "most famous" bit of Le Sacre? I would have thought the bassoon solo for general listeners, the Danse Sacrale for musicians...in either case the Cortege du Sage is the best illustration of ostinato.

[side note - a handy way of counting the famous 11/4 bar at the Glorification de l'Elue is to use the mnemonic: "Ig - Or - Stra - Vin - Sky - Is - A - Son - Of - A - Bitch...")

• Most of the section on "motif" could literally apply to nearly every composer from, say, Ockeghem to Crumb. A far more apt description of Stravinsky's destinctive style is hinted at in the (overlong) paragraph on Serialism in the Lead (especially the bolded part): Their intricacy notwithstanding, these pieces share traits with all of Stravinsky's earlier output; rhythmic energy, the construction of extended melodic ideas out of a few cells comprising only two or three notes, and clarity of form, instrumentation, and of utterance. This isn't developed in the body.
• The term Pastiche is used in the article w/ two very different meanings - one for the layered ostinati in Le Sacre, and another for quotations in Pulcinella and Le Baiser du Fee...this is not completely incorrect in dictionary terms but in context it's confusing...I'd prefer a different word wrt Le Sacre, though I'm blanking at the moment on the right one.
• The discussion of Neoclassicism. oy. The term itself is a constant problem almost on the order of "atonal" or "romantic", overused to the point of meaninglessness, but specifically,
  • The article currently contradicts itself; Strauss was a neoclassicist nohewasn't. Igor's Neoclassical period started w/ Pulcinella in 1920 – no he "announced" it w/ the Octet 3 years later (the former leaves Les Noces as a weird outlier)...
  • Either starting point ignores radical developments earlier on--L'Histoire du Soldat is glossed over when I'm pretty sure I learned in school that it's perhaps the most crucial turning point in all of Stravinsky – it may not be "neoclassical" in the sense that, say, the Symphony in C is, but still it's pretty damn important. Relatedly, the article neglects to mention the effect of World War I on Stravinsky's style: both the adjustments born of economic necessity and the change in worldview occasioned by the catastrophe are huge for his history and music history in general.
  • I really can't think of a composer whose music has less to do w/ Stravinsky's than Max Reger.
  • Appalachian Spring is a neoclassical piece? this is the first I've heard of it.
  • two things from the Lead: 1) Fugue is not a form. 2) Verdi??
  • I'm not denying neoclassicism exists, or is important in Stravinsky, but this idea of "nostalgia" or "harkening back" can be way overstated. Listen to the outer movements of the Symphony in Three Movements and explain to me how it recalls Mozart.
• Stravinsky was a great orchestrator; I'm not 100% sure he's considered an innovative or influential one, except perhaps in his use of percussion.
• The Criticism section is just weird. The Adorno seems a dubious summation of Adorno's thoughts, and is difficult to understand. The Constant Lambert desperately needs a citation; and the Satie bit isn't even criticism, except for an obscure reference at the end to something Cocteau may have written. I'm pretty sure Cocteau and Stravinsky were on ok terms, anyway.

I won't go on. I know I'm supposed to be bold and fix stuff rather than just bitch at extravagant length on the Talk page, but these are just first thoughts to hopefully start a process. Adequately tackling a subject as bottomless as Stravinsky's music and his place in music history will take alot of time and research, and hopefully the collaboration of several editors. Ideally, I think, the "finished" article should represent multiple expert-POV's, and should include at least one or two quotes from scholars on S's style & development — and at least one or two quotes from composers on his influence.

I think most musicians would rank Stravinsky at least in the top 5 or 7 most important composers ever. This needs to become a genuine FA. —Turangalila (talk) 08:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Robert Craft

I read somewhere (I think the book was written by Green or Rosen or someone of there likeness) that a lot of Stravinsky's 12 tone compositions are suspected to have been written by Craft, since he was so persuassive in modulating this transformation in Stravinsky's stlye. I believe the author also wrote that, in Stravinsky's later years, more compositions, very different from Stravinsky's style, were being composed like crazy, noting that Stravinsky wouldn't have been able to have an outburst of creativity at this time in his life. However, I can't find this source and I was wondering if someone could help me find it so that maybe we could put it in the article.

I've never heard that; while I can imagine that someone would say it, it seems crazy, considering a number of things: the line of development Stravinsky took, through partial-row pieces, parts-of-pieces-with-partial-rows, and other experimentation (Agon, the Cantata, IMDT, etc.), his unusual use of rows throughout, as though consciously avoiding the way Schoenberg used them, and the consistent instrumentation tricks/knack and rhythmic character of his late music, which followed his previous practice. Listening to Threni, Canticum Sacrum, and especially the Requiem Canticles, it's just impossible to imagine these pieces being by anyone but Stravinsky. But if someone famous published such a commentary, by all means let us know. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 02:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I also haven't heard this, though I'm not totally up on research on late Stravinsky since Joe Straus's excellent book. Generally speaking there is a dispute on the extent to which Craft crafted many of the interviews and suggested things for Stravinsky to say, which Stravinsky agreed to, and then were given as Stravinsky's own thoughts--it's a commonplace in academic circles, possibly in print in the new Oxford History of Music--RT is good at taking on these controversies. It is also generally acknowledged that Craft's knowledge of the second Viennese school and enthusiasm about them rubbed off on Stravinsky. But as far as Craft's authorship, I doubt it. But the man (RC) did borrow a nice pen of mine once when I was an undergraduate, and didn't return it, so I'll suspect anything.  :) -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 06:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who is up-to-date on late-Stravinsky research, this claim about Craft is utterly preposterous. It would suppose that Stravinsky took down Craft's compositions by dictation, or at least copied out all of the sketches from Craft, since there is copious sketch material, all of it in Stravinsky's handwriting. These sketches and fair copies also exhibit numerous Stravinsky traits dating back as far as 1915, such as the habitual use of a rastrum (multi-nibbed pen) instead of preprinted staff paper, cut-and-paste technique to re-order material (including use of carbon-paper copies)), omission of clefs (sometimes leading to pitch "mistakes" in the process of composition), and so on. See Joseph Straus's book for details.--Jerome Kohl 21:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pulcinella and Petrushka

We need your help here Talk:Pulcinella (ballet) about the relationship of Pulcinella and Petrushka. --Atavi 10:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Zappa and Stravinsky

I rewrote the bit about Zappa and Stravinsky. Two possible problems are that I'm not an expert, and that perhaps I wrote too much. I have also found an interesting article originally printed in the NY Times, but I'm reluctant to link to it anywhere in the main article. Here it is: [1]

I like what you did with the Zappa reference. Confining the gory details to a footnote rather than letting them sprawl out in the article helps enormously, and I don't think you've written too much. I'm not an expert, either (on Zappa, I mean; Stravinsky is another matter, though my expertise is mostly confined to his "mature" period--after 1954 ;-). Of course, Zappa is just one amongst thousands and thousands of musicians who might be cited as influenced by Stravinsky, so this whole "influence" thing could get badly out of hand.--Jerome Kohl 21:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree and I also fear that the influence section could get out of hand. We shall see.--Atavi 22:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Stravinsky's qualities

I have just removed this from the article (the paragraph was about Agon being a Stravinsky mini-encyclopedia): "...rhythmic quirkiness and experimentation, harmonic ingenuity, and a deft ear for masterly orchestration." While none of it was referenced, and it was in the wrong place, I think it puts some of Stravinsky's qualities very well, and I am sure that would all be demonstrable. Are there any quotes from contemporary composers, or subsequent respected analysts, showing that they recognised these qualities in Stravinsky? --RobertG ♬ talk 11:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The first reference I mention is I think very helpful, but the second probably cannot be used as a primary reference. However, I think that Stravinsky's contributions in rhythm are so widely recognized that someone is bound to come up with a suitable reference about it soon.

Aaron Copland has characterized The Rite of Spring as the foremost achievement in orchestration in the 20th century.

I have heard Charles Hazlewood say of Copland that he had the "the rhythm, the spikiness, the raw earthy vitality of Stravinsky" in [2] near 33:30. So obviously, these are characterizations that apply to Stravinsky.

Also in various discovering music programmes I think I have heard characterizations of Stravinsky. In time I will spot them and point out. I think someone suggested that he outdid Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov in orchestration.

--Atavi 14:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In [3] Leonard Slatkin says of The Rite of Spring after 10:50 "very new, bold, and innovative music"--Atavi 15:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent copyedit

I found the views from this article outstanding: the landscape was full of heights, summits, pinnacles, and full-flowering apotheoses! I hope I haven't upset anyone by removing them.

The section about Stravinsky's "innovations" contained lots of explanations about how they weren't really innovations, because other composers had got there first.

This bit was under the "innovation" section: I'm putting it here so it doesn't get lost:

For instance, Aaron Copland greatly admired Stravinsky, who was in many ways his model. In many of his works, including the Appalachian Spring ballet, we can find Stravinsky's rhythm and vitality.

…in the position I removed it from, it gave the impression that Appalachian Spring is a neo-classical work like Stravinsky's.

Finally, has anyone demonstrated that Stravinsky begat Riley & Reich? --RobertG ♬ talk 12:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)