Talk:Irish Volunteers

The assertion that "The Irish Volunteers were a paramilitary organization established by Irish Nationalists to oppose the Ulster Volunteer Force" is misleading at best. While they were clearly formed for different (indeed opposite) purposes, MacNeill and the other leaders made it very clear that the Irish Volunteers were formed in repsonse to, rather than in opposition to, the Ulster Volunteers. At no time did any of the original leadership condone any action against the Ulster Volunteers. MacNeill had gone so far as to state that the Ulster Volunteers had threatened war against Britain, and if that were to occur, the Irish Volunteers should join them. the notion of this ever really happening was basically ridiculous, as they would be fighting for opposite reasons, but his point remains clear. Also, neither organization was actually illegal, although both had engaged in illegal arms imports. The ban was lifted shortly after the Howth incident, but with the outbreak of war weeks later, clearly importing arms from Germany was not to be allowed. R. fiend

Role of IRB in formation of IV

I rewrote the section dealing with the formation of the IV. In my revised section, I start with the facts and then give room to the interpretation of these. The facts are, as Ferriter outlines, what led to the formation of the Irish Volunteers. It is a FACT that MacNeill's article played the most important role, at least in the public eye, in this. That is what the first paragraph should outline what actually happened. Subsequent paragraphs can then discuss the role the IRB may or may not have played in this. That is good history. What Domer48 is proposing is that one point of view should take precedence over all others. The "rationale" he provides for this is that he has produced "referenced material". Well, so I have I, and from two professional historians to boot. (Eoin Neeson is not a professional historian, but is a former government press secretary).

I'm not sure whether Domer48 has studied history. I have and I hold a PhD in the subject. To be frankly honest, his behaviour on Wikipedia is appalling at times. He has a tendency to take subjective opinions from one book and enforce these as gospel on Wikipedia. That is certainly not how professional historians go about their business, and it should not be how Wikipedia functions.--Damac (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You do not know who Eoin Neeson. List all of his works! Or possible just the top 10. And lets not forget K Clarke, what she did not know what was happening --Domer48 (talk) 22:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I do know Eoin Neeson, actually, thank you very much. He is not a professional historian, unlike the two others I mention. Mrs Clarke is of course worthy, but we always need to be particularly critical of any information provided by eyewitnesses, particularly when, as in her case, it comes in the form of retrospective recollections. Anyone who has studied history knows that. (And I presume your history is better than your Irish[1], [2]).--Damac (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

So the more obscure and difficult to name an author's books are, the more reliable it is? Good logic. Enough of the attempts at one-upmanship. Just because you have a source that says one thing it does not mean every other source is incorrect. -R. fiend (talk) 22:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Work away folks, cause as everyone knows, I pull out more references than you can handle. As to my Irish, ha. PhD ye right. I'll let the references do the talking. --Domer48 (talk) 22:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You should be reminded that it's not the quantity but the quality of references that's important. Again, had you any idea of history you'd know that.--Damac (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Still can't name any books by Eoin Neeson? How about any of his plays? Or possibly one or two of his novels? What are thoses other name he writes under? Tell you what, place the referenced quotes you are using down here, to back up your claim? Lets us all decide if they reflect what is in the article. Now why not start with good old Diarmaid, just because I read the article in Phoenix Magazine last week. Now the full quotes mind, so there is no accusations of misrepresentation. --Domer48 (talk) 23:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not here on Wikipedia to engage you in your school-yard games (how many ... can you name, etc).--Damac (talk) 23:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Right you can not name any of them, so that is out the window, you don't know Eoin Neeson. Now, what you can do, is post the referenced quotes I asked for, as the information is being challanged, and it will be removed. Not a game. --Domer48 (talk) 23:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh oh oh! I can! I can! Birth of a Republic, The Civil War, The Life and Death of Michael Collins, A History of Irish Forestry, The Book of Irish Saints, An Tain, Cuchulain’s Saga, The Imperishable Celtic Epic, Deirdre and Other Great Stories from Celtic Mythology, The First Book of Irish Myths and Legends, The Second Book of Irish Myths and Legends, Irish Myths and Legends, Celtic Myths and Legends, Aspects of Parallelism in Japanese and Irish Character and Culture. I WIN!!!!!! -R. fiend (talk) 00:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Now that is the notability of Eoin Neeson sorted (just a fraction of his work), Bailing out the PhD, now the referenced quotes, to back up the changes. --Domer48 (talk) 00:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, you've landed yourself in all this by your evident inability to understand basic English. Nobody doubted Neeson's notability; I didn't even remove the references you made to his work. I simply stated that he is not a professional historian, mainly to pre-empt your mantra about removing referenced material, etc. Has Neeson ever published anything in a peer-reviewed historical journal? That is the mark of a true historian, not the amount of popular history books s/he churns out about mythology.

I don't have to prove to you that I have a PhD in history. I have one, and I couldn't give two hoots whether you take that on board or not. I am recognised by my academic peers as having one and that's what matters.

I'm not sure whether you've noticed, but I provided quotations from the source I mentioned, while you simply referred to the page numbers. I've stated what Ferriter writes; now why don't you come out with what Mrs Clarke and Neeson claim, rather than just provide page numbers. And let's not forget; you removed references to the works of historians, not me. --Damac (talk) 00:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Let us also not forget that Kathleen Clarke had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of the Volunteers. She is far from an authority on that subject. -R. fiend (talk) 00:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed. And that this "autobiography" did not appear during her lifetime, but is an edited memoir published posthumously in 1991 (i.e. 19 years after her death). Interesting no doubt, but certainly not an authoritative source.--Damac (talk) 00:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Books by L. Ron Hubbard: Buckskin Brigades, Final Blackout, Fear, Typewriter in the Sky, Ole Doc Methuselah, Battlefield Earth, Mission Earth, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, Child Dianetics. Dianetic Processing for Children, Notes on the Lectures, Scientology 8-80, Dianetics 55!, Dianetics: The Evolution of a Science, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, The Problems of Work Washington, Have You Lived Before This Life?, Scientology: A New Slant on Life, The Volunteer Minister's Handbook, Research and Discovery Series, The Way to Happiness.

Just look at all of 'em! Now there's an authoritative source! -R. fiend (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Damac you have shown clearly that you don't know Neeson, as to your PhD, on wiki were not intrested. Now provide the Quote from the referenced source you want to use so other editors can judge. Your buddie has illustrated their lack of understanding of the subject and now wants to ride on your coat tails, and act like a court jester, thats fine. I know you have not got a clue, it is obvious to any one who studies history, but hey, wiki, anyone can edit, including you. --Domer48 (talk) 09:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

How you perceive things is of little interest to me. I know who Neeson is, have read some of his books, and am not obliged to spell that out for you on Wikipedia.

I have provided a quote from my referenced source; go check it out in the article and stop annoying me and others.--Damac (talk) 14:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead

Still trying to add WP:OR, now you can reference your changes, or the information can be challanged and removed. Since you have altered referenced information, it's up to you to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 00:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Either you provide the references of it goes, you put stuff in, it's up to you to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 09:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, I have provided references. You'll find them in the article.--Damac (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well that fine, because there is a re-write coming up, backed up with references and quotes such as:

“undoubtedly the initiative and the impulse to the series of meetings leading up to the public inauguration of the Volunteers came from the IRB. It was Hobson’s guarantee that he could provide a nucleus of reliable men to launch the movement that persuaded O’Rahilly to go to MacNeill with the project. Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, Charles Townshend, 2005, page 41

A view indorsed by

• The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33
• The Irish Volunteers 1913-1915, 1963, page 24
• The Easter Rising, Michael Foy & Brian Barton, 2004, page 7
• Myths from Easter 1916, Eoin Neeson, 2007, page 79
• Victory of Sinn Féin, P.S. O’Hegarty, page 9-10
• The Path to Freedom, Michael Collins, 1922, page 54
• Irish Nationalism, Sean Cronin, 1981, page 105
• A History of Ireland Under the Union, P. S. O’Hegarty, page 669
• 1916: Easter Rising, Pat Coogan, page 50
• Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44
• The Bold Fenian Men, Robert Kee, 1976, page 203

Now you can find some of them on the Easter Rising article. The IRB were the "initiative and the impulse" to the formation of the Volunteers. The article dose not reflect the opinion of a number of notable authors, so changes must be made to reflect these opinions. --Domer48 (talk) 20:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay. More snippets of other people's work haphazardly thrown into an article in a stylistic nightmare. Can hardly wait. -R. fiend (talk) 20:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? Like Diarmaid Ferriter using Michael Laffan's book? Is that what you mean? Tell you what, reach up to your book shelf again, because I did. Now on wiki if you put something in you have to be able to back it up. --Domer48 (talk) 20:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, bring it on, Domer48, but remember the old adage of quality, not quantity. The accounts of professional historians Michael Foy, Brian Barton and Charles Townshend are certainly worthy of consideration, and should be discussed in association with Michael Laffan's research. I'd be more wary of the older books mentioned above, written by journalists, amateur historians and eyewitnesses.

Before you start adding material, I'd advise you to read up on the basic principles of grammar, as the stuff you've produced is, at times, appalling and difficult to follow.

Some basic pointers:

• please learn the difference between singular and plural. An organisation like the Irish Volunteers is singular. We say "it was" and not "they were" formed in 1913.

'*Learn when to use commas.--Damac (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh you have a problem with contemporary sources have you. Sources who were members of the IRB at the time and would be in an ideal position. I did not here you mention that when Hobson was used. Now let me see if I have this right, Hobson was a Journalist, an armature historian and an eyewitness. You’re not being selective now, are you? And you with a PhD! Now do you want to start the re-write? Because you would after all with your PhD know, that as the article stands, it’s misleading, erroneous and wrong. Now that is not me saying this, that’s what the sources say. Hobson, yes, I've read about him, the last thing that Tom Clarke said to him was "How much did the castle pay you Bulmer." --Domer48 (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The Bulmer Hobson reference has nothing to do with me. It's been there for ages according to the edit history. Deleting it would be fine with me.

Again, another attempt at diversion.--Damac (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't have a problem with them; I just said I'd be wary of them. People who experienced one thing often have very selective and subjective memories of those events when writing about them later. That's what every student of history learns. I'd take my cue from the famous historian Arthur Marwick, who said that the most recent academic studies on any topic were usually the most reliable, as they usually evaluate existing primary and secondary sources.

By the way, here's something interesting. It's a PDF version of the National Library of Ireland's guide to the Easter Rising, authored by Dr Noel Kissane. Dr Michael Laffan was history consultant. Again, it claims Mac Neill was the main force behind the formation of the Irish Volunteers, but does acknowledge that "a number of the executive, however, were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood who aimed at using the Volunteers to gain full independence, which indeed came to pass, most of the participants in the 1916 Rising being members of the Volunteers."[3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damac (talk • contribs) 21:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

On to matters of actual importance

There seems to be a bit of discrepancy about who was at the Wynn's Hotel meeting on 11 November. Bulmer Hobson's account does not list Eamonn Martin. Is there a source for him being there? Also, Pearse was there, but sources indicate he would not join the IRB for another month or so. -R. fiend (talk) 02:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)