Talk:The Hunger Project

This reads like an advert with a bunch of thp.com self-links

And as such, I tagged it for deletion as an advertisement and spam. I tried to tag a specific section that had no citations, but now has TWO in the last few hours, both self-reffing thp.com links as citations.

Is this ever going to end? Why was my tag for deletion undone by an admin? It's an advert...the majority of the links are from thp themselves.

How is this objective OR neutral? Arcana imperii Ascendo tuum 22:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• If I were you, I would not put speedy tags on the article, that is probably inappropriate. Rather, remove the sections of text that you feel are either poorly sourced, or sourced from locations that make those sections of the article read like spam advertising. Then, you and others can rewrite those sections with information from secondary sources, instead of the company's website and information directly from its officers editing Wikipedia, as you have rightfully complained about. Just some suggestions. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 19:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC).

Edits by Thpcomm

I work in the communications department of The Hunger Project and am a new wikipedia user. I believe strongly in the NPOV policy and look forward to working with other editors to ensure this article is accurate, well-sourced, NPOV and consistent with the full range of wikipedia standards.

My first edits have been to update the infotable with the current list of directors and officers, using the correct non-profit organization template. Thpcomm (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a COI issue. --Pax Arcane 02:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I intend to work consistent with all the Wikipedia standards to help this and any other article I edit become accurate, well-sourced and NPOV. As you'll see in the arbitration decision covering this page found at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger/Proposed_decision, editors associated with The Hunger Project are explicitly permitted to edit this page. I look forward to working with other editors to make this page the best it can be.Thpcomm (talk) 19:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the primary activities section to focus on factual statements backed by verifiable sources. I have removed the final paragraph completely based on WP:NOR and Verifiability policies as these statements appear to be unsourced opinions. In the Financial Accountability section, I removed the word “claims” to describe an undisputed factual matter (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_Avoid).

Based on these edits, I have also removed the advertising tag, which I believe is not applicable at this point.Thpcomm (talk) 18:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks good so far. It's refreshing to see independently sourced info on this article and an

editor willing to dig in and do the work instead of self referring links.

I only agreed that it looked good until I found out it just referred to different THP weebsites/blogs insterad of anything substantive. LOOKED good, but didn't work out.--Pax Arcane 21:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• The only edit I have issue with is removal of the word 'claims' in the financial accountability section as the financial info has not been independently verified and still contains self referring links. --Pax Arcane 00:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. The audited statement is independently published by an external auditor (McGladrey & Pullen) and is just posted on the website. Could you look at the link and let me know if you still have a concern?Crystal08 (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but due to COI on your part, I'd need the statement from a secondary source. --Pax Arcane 22:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert to previous edits by Thpcomm

I am the user that was formerly known as Thpcomm, and have changed my username to abide by Wikipedia standards (no company names). I am an individual that works in Communications at The Hunger Project (not a role account), and believe strongly in Wikipedia's NPOV and Verifiability policies and will do my best to ensure that my edits meet those standards.

Well sourced edits to three sections of this article have been reverted without any substantive discussion. In the case of the infotable, the reversions replaced accurate verifiable information and an appropriate template with outdated unsourced information and an inapplicable template. The reason cited, "revert COI edits," is not as I understand it a legitimate reason for reversion. Consistent with Wikipedia policies, under the arbitration decision covering this page (Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Hunger/Proposed_decision), editors associated with The Hunger Project are explicitly permitted to edit this page.

I am therefore reverting back to the page with my edits and if any edits I have made do not comply with NPOV or other policies, or the article can otherwise be made better, I look forward to reading and discussing other users' edits. I have stated my affiliation to be open and transparent and am doing my best in good faith to make the article NPOV and not promotional, so I would appreciate if my edits were not reverted based solely on the fact that I edited the article. Please post on the talk page any problems with specific edits.

Crystal08 (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As you have an acknowledged financial conflict of interest on this article's subject matter - it would be best if you do not edit this article directly, but instead post requested changes for discussion here on the talk page. Let's start with this: Please take a moment to read over WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NOR. After that, please let us know here on the talkpage if you have any citations to WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources to back up potential changes to be made to this article. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 20:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As you see they have failed to stop the WP:RS/WP:V, and the initial edit was by a rep of The Hunger Project, I have placed the {{coi}} tag. Any further COI edits will result in AFD of this article. BoL (Talk) 05:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My edits appear to have been reverted without examining whether they are good edits that add reliable secondary sources. Please note that another editor of this page and an administrator have commented positively about these changes, which are non-controversial and have secondary sources.

Reverting edits solely because of COI appears inconsistent with WP policies and the arbitration, which expressly allows editing by people associated with The Hunger Project. The COI guideline states that it “does not require editors with a COI to avoid editing altogether. An editor with a disclosed COI is complying with the guideline when they discuss proposed changes on a talk page and/or make non-controversial edits in mainspace consistent with other WP policies and guidelines.”

The edits I have made so far are non-controversial and well sourced. If you disagree about any of the edits, please examine them or edit them and let us discuss them here rather than simply reverting the article.

I also believe that other sections of the article are not well-sourced and are POV. I expect to post any proposed substantial edits to those sections first to the talk page in the hopes of developing a consensus so that we can get an article that is consistent with WP standards.

I have also posted a request on WP:COIN for editing assistance and look forward to working with other editors consistent with WP policies.Crystal08 (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I have evaluated your edits, and please, if you are affilated with the organization to please stop editing this article due to conflict of interest. And, as far as I know, you are adding sources from your website and not from third-party sources. I've heard of similar projects, but none of them have ever tried to promote the organization via Wikipedia. BoL (Talk) 19:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Brief initial comment via WP:COIN. I agree that the Thpcomm/Crystal08 edits are unsatistfactory per WP:COI; whatever arbitration says, it's bound to raise suspicion if editors associated with an organisation delete sections relating to criticism.

However, I think that the consensus version of the article also needs work for neutrality via rephrasing weasel words. The phraseology "claims" is prejudicial: "states" or "according to..." would be better. Also the section

Observers, even while sympathetic to the stated goals of the Hunger Project, have noted an emphasis on semi-mystical allegations that world hunger will disappear through adoption of attitudes among us, with little hard evidence to support this claim. It has been remarked, too, that while the claimed activities abroad, as listed above, are admirable, the Hunger Project to win public confidence needs to produce more evidence, from impartial observers, that these benefits have actually been achieved.

needs tying to specific quotes and sources. "Observers ... have noted ... It has been remarked". Who noted and remarked, and where? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Gordonofcartoon (talk · contribs) - I removed that unsourced WP:OR-violation paragraph, pending anyone showing some WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Thanks for pointing that out, Cirt (talk) 21:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In my proposed edits, I did my best to improve, in my opinion, a poorly sourced POV article by using neutral language and secondary sources where ever possible. Rather than editing the article at this point, I want to further explain my suggested edits and hope that other users will engage with them.

I added these references to the first two sections.

Future, NEED Magazine, Issue 2, 2007.

Ghanaian Villagers Making Their Way Out of Poverty, The Earth Institute at Columbia University, July 25, 2005.

UN Association of the USA

The Earth Times", by Duane A. Gallop, Posted October 23, 2002.

Hunger Project's animators to create bright future for nation" The New Nation, December 23, 2005.

Girls' Hunger Fought with Cooking Oil" Anna Grossman, November, 24, 2005.

PIB Official Bags Sarojini Naidu Prize" Press Information Bureau, Government of India, September 15, 2005.

Notes to Consolidated Financial Statements", The Hunger Project 2006 Annual Report, page 25.

Prior to these edits, the only sources (other than for the first sentence) cited for the introductory and primary activities sections were from The Hunger Project's website. Another editor of this article commented about these edits "Looks good so far. It's refreshing to see independently sourced info on this article and an editor willing to dig in and do the work instead of self referring links." I also deleted completely unsourced material. Yet, the edits were reverted to the prior version solely because of the COI issue.

The infotable was created using the incorrect template applicable to for-profit businesses and has inaccurate headings such as "Operating Income," an unsourced inaccurate number of employees and does not even have the correct president of the organization. I used the non-profit form, alphabetized names and removed the unsourced or irrelevant entry. This too was reverted in whole.

In the financial accountability section, I removed the word claim per WP:Words to Avoid on a sentence that is a fact not in controversy and I added the clause that that “Independent Charities of America gives it its Seal of Excellence (awarded to less than one percent of charities operating in the US)” noting the source Independent Charities of America.

In reference to BOL's comment: "And, as far as I know, you are adding sources from your website and not from third party sources," The sources that I have used are secondary and are all linked to pieces you can find on the web. Please refer above, dig in and look at them.

I would appreciate if other editors would read the above references, decide whether they are good sources, then discuss on the talk page or make relevant edits on the main article. Please do not simply ignore my good faith contributions or assume that I am trying to promote the organization rather than working to get a well-sourced NPOV article.

Crystal08 (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH PAID COI EDITORS. PEDDLE YOUR WARES IN THE PR SECTOR. --Pax Arcane 21:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)