Talk:Translation

Vandalism

We might want to protect this page. The first paragraph has been vandalized.

The DarkArcher was here 01:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

- This article needs protection against Groupthink, as well as against walling, fiddling in self-purpose and vandalism as displayed by these Groupthinkers, and against the lack of compliance with Wikipedia's assessment scale in higher quality grades, and also against the "Don't Invent Anything New" syndrome, and other types of fun clicking.

[from the Heretic] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.48.98.89 (talk) 16:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

- A vandal is someone, whose contribution (including deletions etc.) has no impact or has detrimental impact with regard to progressing upwards on Wikipedia's assessment scale for quality. Wikipedia's assessment scale for quality and tangible progress in ranking is the sole measuring stick.

It cannot be tolerated that the severity of such actions remain empty or are mere generalizations or are lowly or non-critical or preferential as to how they relate to an upwards movement on Wikipedia's assessment scale. Such actions are not proportional to the purpose and the assessment scales set by Wikipedia. Too much time and energy is wasted by all parties due to complacency in addressing this issue of progressing upwards on Wikipedia's assessment scale.

- If you are not capable of creating and delivering specific reasoning for your actions with regard to this reference or relationship to an upwards movement within Wikipedia's assessment scale in a substantial and significant manner, please refrain from becoming active in any manner within this article.

I recommend that a wiki log protocol should be established that logs such actions with regarding to their categorization and severity in order to increase traceability capabilities.

[from the Heredic] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.72.245 (talk) 17:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Log Protocol

1. Maxsch should refrain from vandalizing the article about MT and Google Translation Center, and citations regarding NIST, and the TAUS link under associations, or specifically explain his reasoning, including categorization and severity. Especially explain the relationship of this action towards enhanced progress on Wikipedia's assessment scale for quality. Background: Jim Henry asked this piece to be formulated in prose.

Influence on intellectual progress & development

I wonder if there should be a section about the influence of translation on the development of regions and cultures. Seems to me that seeing how many works are typically translated into a particular language is a good barometer on how freely ideas are being exchanged there, and how progressive a society is. Take, for example, this bit of info from this article:

"Although Arab culture, from Baghdad to Toledo, led the world in the art of translation in the 8th and 9th centuries, transmitting ancient Greek and Latin texts that helped fuel Europe's renaissance, the UN estimates that the entire number of books translated into Arabic in the past 1,000 years is the same as that now rendered into Spanish in a single year. This falling behind, long lamented by some Arab intellectuals, was identified by the UN Development Programme in 2002 as a hindrance to progress in the Arab world, which helped concentrate the minds of some of its rulers."

Although that same article also says that there are far more English books being translated into Arabic these days than Arabic books into English. This is also something that I've noticed with Russian in recent years. It suggests a 1-directional flood of cultural influence.

Has there been any thorough academic discussion about the cultural impact of translation (or lack of it) on different cultures today? Esn (talk) 02:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The culture-developing function of translation is alluded to in the final paragraph of this article's "Misconceptions" section and in a couple of places in the "History of theory" section. This is, however, such an important and under-appreciated concept that it might well merit a section of its own. Some twenty years ago I perused a book on the subject, but don't recall the title. No doubt there are other books and articles as well, and maybe someone with access could do a concise summary. Nihil novi (talk) 08:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

True, there are some brief allusions in those sections, but they do not approach anywhere near the detail that the subject deserves, I think. If such a section were brought to full realization, I think there would be a fair number of interwiki links to other major articles, because it would touch a number of other social studies. I wouldn't mind writing something myself eventually if nobody else is willing to, but I wouldn't want to start without reading a bit more about the subject than a few paragraphs in newspaper articles. I'd be grateful if someone had some good books or scholarly papers to recommend. Esn (talk) 09:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Added Resource

I put in #translate from UnderNet, we are a group dedicated to translating things for people. 24.225.22.231 (talk) 14:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, whoever deleted my resource could at least have the stones to tell me why. 24.225.22.231 (talk) 08:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Haven't checked who did it last time but I'm about to do it again. Page is not about where to get your translations done, that would fail WP:HOWTO and WP:NOTDIR, your link is innapropriate on those grounds too. See Wikipedia:External links for general guidance. As to your assertion on article page about conflict of interest, I'm not sure the Wiki link is appropriate either, though it is at least a site discussing the article subject rather than just providing a service. Please note that not everything with 'wiki' in the title has anything to do with Wikipedia - that site certainly doesn't look like a related project. -Hunting dog (talk) 08:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted the link to wiki-translation.com as well it seems to fail Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided point 12 Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors -Hunting dog (talk) 09:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Modern Translation Issues - Multilingual Publishing

I think that there is a lot of room for comment regarding the increasing need for translation in the modern commercial world. We can see this highlighted by the advent, development and popularity of Machine Translation (in most cases however, machine translation fails due to its inability to take into account contextual issues and cultural nuances). If we look towards the expansion of the web, we see the demand for information in languages other than English escalate. Particularly when economically emergent nations add new users and therefore new voices and perspectives to the medium. If we look at Asia, we have seen massive increases in web users amongst the Chinese population (as of June, the country overtook the US in the number of internet users; with a reported 253 million people with internet access (Source: International Herald Tribune - http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/25/business/internet.php)). This fact is made more pertinent when you consider that there are significantly fewer sites available in Chinese in comparison to English (source http://www.internetworldstats.com/languages.htm). All this points to the need for information to be made available in proportion to size the world community that needs it. On a smaller scale, we can see this happening more and more often in local government here in the UK. There are many initiatives that have been put into place to promote integration. Literature, road signage and local government web content have all been published in languages other than English to represent the demographic of the community that require access to it. And, like the world community, this requirement is constantly evolving. It is not improbable that we will begin to see multilingual publishing continue to flourish as more and more organisations begin to realise just how valuable it is to offer multilingual content and/or media. There is a good article on this subject here: http://www.translationservices-uk.com/Translation-Services-Global.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaxwellPN (talk • contribs) 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

21st Century Benchmarks versus Groupthink

Where's the problem with public domain entries? Spam, or even Vandalism, are bent arguments and feeble excuses in the case of public domain resources. On the contrary, this is exactly where the core problem of Groupthink becomes relevant within this Translation article as a whole, therefore the B-Class quality rating from Wikipedia:

"Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During Groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking."

The Language Grid is a new public domain infrastructure on the top of the Internet (see also Grid Computing) that aims to improve the accessibility and usability of existing language services and so encourage users to create new language services that suit their needs.

• Language Grid Association
• Collaborative Translation: Language Grid (Creative Commons License) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.48.98.89 (talk) 06:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Include this one under the category 21st Century Benchmarks too: V-Commuting: The Next Frontier In Global Workforce Management Lionbridge Quality Best Practice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.48.98.89 (talk) 04:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

What I would recommend is that you write/create an article about the Language Grid Association and/or its product, and link to it from the translation page in the "See also" section. As it stands, the section you added and was subsequently removed called "21st Century Benchmarks" appears to be an attempt to promote a specific technology. I say "appears," and I mean to assume good faith. Promotion may not have been your goal, but you have not established wp:notability through reliable third-party sources. I don't think the disparaging references to "B-class quality rating" are necessary. I, for one, am happy whenever someone tries to improve this article, I just don't see how the text you added does so.

p.s. From this link [1], it appears that you may be the same person as User:Eurominuteman, who was once blocked from editing wikipedia for disruptive edits to this very page. Your immediate hostility and accusations of "groupthink" reinforce my suspicions. If this is a case of mistaken identity, I do apologize, but if you are the same person, I hope you have not returned to be disruptive again. maxsch (talk) 22:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Groupthink is the actual authentic source of negative disruption and vandalism. And you know it exists. The archives of this article are full of it.

Public domain links, like public domain Associations (Language Grid Association) in the Associations list, do not need to be re-packaged into another category of links by writing an extra article. Creative Common License ones neither. Otherwise, you would need to dissolve the other traditional Association links under the Associations category too, by concluding fully to the end and implementing your recommendation. Your recommendation is part of your self-defeating Groupthink approach, and has no benefit.

You guys deserve a C-Class rating for trying build a wall around your Groupthink. In the ultimate final, you were not able to fool the Wikipedia peers from a content and a factual viewpoint. Today's status is: A-Class rating for importance, B-Class rating for quality... for a fairly long time already.

By the way, we happen to be living in the 21st century, and not in an extension of other centuries of the past, which is actively promoted by you guys as such, and as one would conclude after reading the article in the B-Class rating format. Grid Computing is 21st century (used by CERN, the creator of WWW, and other research facilities) and the Language Grid (applied in a group of research facilities, like Kyoto University in Japan) is 21st century, and both are displayed in public domain links. Fact is fact. It is not an abstract or commercial category. I recommend that you try using the General Category "21st Century Benchmarks" as a straightforward solution for your B-Class rating problem instead of trying bend your way around it, as governed by your underlying principle "Don't Invent Anything New". Your approach strategy is simply inconsistent with an A-Class rating for quality. As a heretic (hehe, I agree being called one) that's not my problem. Being a heretic is actually not disruptive as assumed in the context behind the Groupthink walls - what a myth, see Disruptive Technology.

In this Translation article, there is a lack of insight for positive disruption due to Groupthink walling. You guys wrote an article for a different century, not for Translation in the 21st century. I recommend that you change the general main title at the top to Translation Basics before the 21st century, and put it as a link reference in a complete newly structured article for Translation. It does not represent Translation as a whole. You Groupthink guys are evidently not the supreme information gatekeepers of Translation.

I think the Groupthink walling vandals will keep to their ways, and even keep to rejecting facts put forward under heretic dissent by deploying all reality-bending tricks in the book:

"Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During Groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.50.232.190 (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Higher GA/A/F-Class Quality Ratings Are Just Not Happening! Why?

How are you guys intending to handle a B-Class quality rating? Existing in a reduced quality rating is not the objective.

How are you guys going to embrace an A-Class rating format for quality? It hasn't happened up to now.

A. Preventing Groupthink

1. Leaders should assign each member the role of “critical evaluator”. This allows each member to freely air objections and doubts.

2. Higher-ups should not express an opinion when assigning a task to a group.

3. The organization should set up several independent groups, working on the same problem.

4. All effective alternatives should be examined.

5. Each member should discuss the group's ideas with trusted people outside of the group.

6. The group should invite outside experts into meetings. Group members should be allowed to discuss with and question the outside experts.

7. At least one group member should be assigned the role of Devil's advocate. This should be a different person for each meeting.

B. Re-Structure the title to "Translation Basics before the 21st Century", and re-link accordingly as recommended above.

C. Add "Research" as category

D. Reduce the rating to C-Class in order to counteract against Groupthink inactivity.

E. Stop limiting the translation focus to "Pushing the Bike Pedals Only", include "Holding the Handlebars" and "Looking at the Roadmap".

Valid 21st Century Benchmarks

E1. Traditional Translation processes (Gutenberg, Taylorism),

Lionbridge Best Practices: Reasons for No Sample Translations, furthermore Lack of Terminology Guide, Lack of Style Guides (Author, Translator), and Lack of Language Register Guides, Lack of Subtitling, Lack of Transcription...even Lack of Translation Memory... simply walled from other categories that are not Literary. This is not Translation for a professional encyclopedia. Change the name of this article to "Literary Translation before the 21st Century" as a sub-link to "Translation", which then contains a full scope of categories.

TAUS: The End of Old School Localization Thinking

TAUS Best Practices

E2. Collaborative Translation processes (Cybernetics),

Common Sense Advisory: Collaborative Translation

Web 2.0: Use of wikis and blogs in Translation processes,

Google Trends: Collaboration, Wiki, Blog, Convergence, Translation,

Lionbridge Best Practices: V-Commuting - The Next Frontier

E3. Collaborative Google Translation Center processes (imminently upcoming, MT+Crowdsourcing, Cybernetics),

Google Translation Center

It must be noted that Machine Translation is on the List of emerging technologies ranked as a new and potentially Disruptive Technology (this sentence is merely a summary of Wiki sources, which has been censored by the Groupthinkers). National Institute of Standards and Technology NIST Open Machine Translation (MT) Evaluations are performed annually since 2001. Based on the Bilingual Evaluation Understudy method for rating translation accuracy, Google scored first place in a 2005 evaluation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology evaluation.

New structural approach MT + Crowdsourcing + Web 2.0 Translation Memory: Within the enhanced structural implementation MT under the higher-grade cybernetic conditions of Crowdsourcing, as underway in the imminent rollout of Google Translation Center, 2008-09-02 TAUS writes: Helping Google Help the World

E4. Collaborative Language Grid processes (upcoming, Convergence, Second-order cybernetics).

Language Grid derived from Grid Computing

"Pushing the Bike Pedals Only" will never achieve A-Class rating format. A professional encyclopedia demands more. Showing how to chew around on single words is not the big picture and the full scope of Translation for a professional encyclopedia. Groupthink walling in this context will never deliver the required format. Even the lack of Research & Development as category up to now is strategically symptomatic for the missing gaps yet to be uncovered. Groupthinkers notoriously avoid new paradigms and scapegoat others as disruptors (better heretics) in order to maintain their outdated information gatekeeper function. The strategic restructuring of the cybernetic order will not be counteracted by Tricky Dick wording on the part of Groupthinkers. Your approach strategy is simply inconsistent with an A-Class rating for quality, and a threat for other translators by downplaying the gravity of structural changes.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.154.240 (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

---

Does anyone besides Mr/Ms. Anonymous IP Address want to address this? I've been going over the article and I can't see any obvious gaps or serious problems; most of the article is pretty clearly written, though there's a little more redundancy between the intro section and some of the detail sections than I would like, and there are some misguided links to irrelevant pages or disambig pages (some of which I've just fixed); e.g. several links of ecological niche in a metaphorical sense for words' role within a particular language, where the linked-to article is all about biology and says nothing about semantics. What problems or gaps in coverage did the person who assigned the B-class quality rating have in mind? --Jim Henry (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, for a little background, Mr/Ms anonymous editor used to go by the name User:Eurominuteman and he was blocked for repeated 3RR violations and general disruptiveness here on the translation page (see here[2] for a little overview). This all happened about a year ago, and I am not sure what triggered this sudden return. He seems bent on ignoring consensus (in fact, on insulting consensus) toward some incomprehensible bureaucratic babble. I plan to ignore him this time unless he expresses a genuine willingness to listen and collaborate. As far as the B-rating, I don't actually know when this article was last assessed. I tend to think it deserves better. maxsch (talk) 21:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

All above links and recommendations are valid fact. So stop trying to play the same old game as Groupthinker Maxschmelling again. You always have had your problems with Heretics. I tend to think you are not quite qualified to produce a B-Class rating format. I mean the B-Class rating is fact, you've been B-Class rating for a long time, about a year.

B-Class means, "No reader should be left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher. A few aspects of content and style need to be addressed, and expert knowledge is increasingly needed. The inclusion of supporting materials should also be considered if practical, and the article checked for general compliance with the manual of style and related style guidelines". After uncovering the significant gaps on the traditional level in item E1 above, this does not actually apply. Traditional scope and 21st century content benchmarks are completely missing for Translation, less for Prose-Focused Literary Translation prior to the 21st Century.

So why didn't the upper GA-/A-/F-Class rating formats actually happen? "Pushing the Bike Pedals Only" didn't work. When was the last time you looked at the assessment scale? You would have seen the following upper levels, meaning "Holding the Handlebars" and "Reading the Roadmap":

GA-Class rating (Good Article Capability): Useful to nearly all readers, with no obvious problems; approaching (although not equaling) the quality of a professional encyclopedia. Some editing by subject and style experts is helpful; comparison with an existing featured article on a similar topic may highlight areas where content is weak or missing.

This article is not approaching the quality of a professional encyclopedia. Content is weak and missing, as listed from E1 to E4 above. Valid scientific material (as referred to under E3 above) is deliberately and repeatedly being blocked and vandalized without delivering concrete reasoning. These risks need to be mitigated and eliminated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.72.245 (talk) 10:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class rating: Very useful to readers. A fairly complete treatment of the subject. A non-expert in the subject matter would typically find nothing wanting. Some editing by subject and style experts is helpful; comparison with an existing featured article on a similar topic may highlight areas where content is weak or missing.

F-Class rating (Feature Capability): Professional, outstanding, and thorough; a definitive source for encyclopedic information. No further content additions should be necessary unless new information becomes available; further improvements to the prose quality are often possible.

This is the target format. So pointing to the required assessment scale of Wikipedia and matching the missing content is very collaborative. I don't need more.

Maxsch, for the sake of helping you to avoid making things ridiculous, please align and focus yourself to the requirements management of Wikipedia instead of fiddling in self-purpose, there is no way around this level of consensus.

Change the Article Title to "Literary Translation before the 21st Century"

For those Groupthinkers focused on fiddling in self-purpose and walling on Heretic responses, please be knowledgeable about the requirements management of a C-Class quality rating in order to be aware of the contrast to the higher grade ratings of Wikipedia:

C-Class rating: Useful to a casual reader, but would not provide a complete picture for even a moderately detailed study. Considerable editing is needed to close gaps in content and address cleanup issues.

I tend to think this article has advanced to a stage between C and B. Fiddling in self-purpose and Groupthink needs to be overcome in order to advance further or even to remain a B-Class rating quality article. The risk of dropping to C-Class rating is evident:

It is not a good sign if valid scientific data from a series of assessments regarding Machine Translation is repeatedly blocked, like those references under E3 above, without delivering adequate detailed response, at least in the spirit of Wikipedia's assessment scale. Else de facto, your intentions would be to form Wikipedia to take the role of the Heretic.

Better, change the name of this article to "Literary Translation before the 21st Century" as a sub-link to "Translation", which then contains a full scope of categories.

I mean as far as I am concerned, go ahead and request a new Wikipedia assessment. Really do it, but don't be surprised if the rating drops in the light of the uncovered material and the prevailing Groupthink behaviors. [from the Heretic]

Where is the Research category?

Where is the problem here, Groupthinkers? ..."Don't Invent Anything New" again? [from the Heretic] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.38.219 (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

R&D

• Wiki-Translation.com (Creative Commons License)
• Language Translation, R&D Magazine Search Query
• National Institute of Standards and Technology: NIST Open Machine Translation (MT) Evaluation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.6.132 (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Problems with / limitations of machine translation

Claude Piron discusses the limitations of machine translation in his Le Defi des Langues (L'Harmattan, 1994). I could introduce a brief cite from him to the effect that machine translation automates the relatively easy part of a translator's job, leaving the hard part (doing research to resolve ambiguities in the source text) unaffected. Do y'all think that would be appropriate here, or should it go in the other article on machine translation? --Jim Henry (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The citation you describe seems to make a point similar to what appears in both those articles. I would be open to consideration of its addition to both, including the "Translation" article's "Machine translation" section. Nihil novi (talk) 20:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Are the potentials also clear? see List of emerging technologies (disruptive ones include machine translation, of course)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.38.219 (talk) 07:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

National Institute of Standards and Technology NIST Open Machine Translation (MT) Evaluations are performed annually since 2001. Based on the Bilingual Evaluation Understudy method for rating translation accuracy, Google scored first place in a 2005 evaluation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology evaluation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.154.240 (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In the enhanced structural implementation MT under the higher-grade cybernetic conditions of Crowdsourcing, as underway in the imminent rollout of Google Translation Center: 2008-09-02 TAUS writes: Helping Google Help the World —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.72.245 (talk) 12:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikis, Blogs, Google Translation Center

Why go so far to jump around on machine translation. Wikis and blogs have already matured as a disruptive technology. What about collaborative translation wikis, like [3] Wiki-Translation.com ? By the way, this article is a Wiki with all of its inherent disruptive potential.

Google Trends: Wiki, Blog, Translation

And Google Translation Center is just around the corner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.38.219 (talk) 22:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

"Formal equivalence" equates to "metaphrase,"

"Formal equivalence" equates to "metaphrase," and "dynamic equivalence"—to "paraphrase."

Is that so? Wiktionary defines "metaphrase" as a literal word-for-word translation; my understanding of formal equivalence is that it's not so restrictive. Or rather, "literal" is used with a range of meanings in this context, the most extreme sense being maybe synonymous with "metaphrase" but most of the other senses not so. --Jim Henry (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe those terms are specifically associated with the theoretician Eugene Nida, and are used in the sense he gives them. Formal equivalence is an equivalence in the form of the text, and dynamic equivalence an equivalence in its effect. Word-for-word ia a problematic notion because different languages have different grammar, and a one word for one word approach can often produce nonsense. Formal and dynamic equivalence are not necessarily separate approaches, they are simply two ways to describe the poles of sometimes contradictory goals. Maybe it shouldn't say "equates" to metaphrase (maybe something like "correlates" instead), but I do think the relationship is properly represented. maxsch (talk) 19:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Well put. Word-for-word (verbum-pro-verbo) "literality," as so often with concepts, at a "subatomic" level becomes much less well-defined than it appears to be when viewed more superficially. We are indeed dealing here with a spectrum of approaches. Nihil novi (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)