Talk:English phrasal verbs

Vicki, I am on your side, you know. There is such a thing as ironing out what one has just written but you didn't give me much of a chance. I really am not trying to foist something on to the reader that I haven't thoroughly looked into and researched, as you can see in the Talk section of Compound verb, which really is a bit of a misnomer for what it actually contains, apart from the the verbs containing two or more components, etc.-- Dieter Simon 00:15, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Okay. Next time, do me a favor and put something like "intermediate save" in the summary line, so I'll know you're not done yet. Vicki Rosenzweig 00:20, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Yeh, Mav and others seem to warn that if it is a new article that that is precisely what can happen. Are you going to leave that last para in there? Should I add a summing up of sorts?Dieter Simon 00:49, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Anyway, it's resolved itself now, seeminglyDieter Simon

Oops. Hope I didn't step on any toes with my addition. Or confuse the issue too thoroughly... Thirdreel 00:53, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Wait, Thirdreel, what has all this to do with phrasal verbs? Neither "she walked out of the door" nor "she took out the garbage " are phrasal verb constructions. They both have a literal meaning, there is nothing figurative or idiomatic about either of these two sentences, which is really the yardstick of a phrasal verb. There is nothing idiomatic about "she took out the garbage", it is a statement of fact, whatever it may consist of. Please take a look at the Talk page of compound verbDieter Simon 01:10, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I see that I've entered this carelessly. I'd read the article and thought I knew what I was talking about, but it seems I'm off from the accepted definition. I wanted to raise the distinction between the two formulas: verb plus prepositional phrase, and verb phrase plus object. "to turn on someone" and "to turn someone on." But if my addition was way off-base, feel free to delete it, or to use only what parts are relevant. Thirdreel 01:26, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Don't feel bad, we all do it at times. :) I'll clean it up a bit tomorrow. Tonight is already morning. Dieter Simon

After all this, please accept my apologies, Vicki and Thirdreel, I don't know what came over me, a brainstorm I believe. I have now changed the gist of the article thoroughly and of course you can do so if there are other things you want to include or change. I have also sent apologies to IHCOYC. --Dieter Simon 23:21, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree that this article is confusing the issues. (Part of this of course is how much confusion there is in the literature about what "phrasal verb" and "particle verb" etc mean.) I think, however, that "particle verb" and "verb-particle construction" refer exclusively to constructions that permit the particle placement alternation (aka particle movement). I have seen phrasal verb used for other things, but I don't think it's used for phrases where the particle is a true transitive preposition. --Serapio 19:24, 2004 Aug 23 (UTC)

Could someone give an example of a linguist who would call this a phrasal verb?

He came across the garden to speak to me (literal)

What I've seen called phrasal verbs and partical verb phrases are cases where the particle is intransitive, whether an adverb or a directional particle. I can understand the tendency to call MWEs like "turn on someone" or "come across something" (to find) phrasal verbs, but if "come across the garden" is a phrasal verb, then every verb with oblique arguments is a phrasal verb. What would you do with "come across the garden to the flowerbed for me"? -Serapio 09:35, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

phrasal verbs decoded

Phrasal verbs have been one of the most difficult areas of English to both teach and learn, and for the intermediate and advanced student a source of a feeling of inadequacy when they are proficient in grammar and vocabulary. The dedicated student, who has mastered the seemingly endless list of irregular verbs (the list is quite small really) has grappled with and overcome most of the grammatical difficulties, can spell and pronounce the ridiculously troublesome words such as hiccough, has a mountain to climb. Whereas in Spain and France the English language is not governed by a body such as the Real Academia Española or the Académie Française, and dictionaries differ as to what is a phrasal verb and what is idiomatic speech. If the dictionaries cannot agree and one may describe a phrase as idiomatic and another as a phrasal verb, then the problem for the teacher and student alike is twofold. Since there are thousands of idiomatic phrases, and thousands of phrasal verbs, how is the student ever going to speak like a native? When I took my TESOL course many years ago, I and other prospective English teachers were told that the only way to learn phrasal verbs was by heart, the reason being there was no apparent logic behind them. Yet these phrases make up a huge amount of the daily spoken vocabulary of native speakers who acquired them in the same way they acquired their grammar, unaware and completely ignorant of their origins. When a native English teacher attempts to explain the meaning finds that he or she cannot give a reason why ‘give over’ translates to ‘stop doing’ and the same goes for thousands of other phrases. Now, learning these phrases by heart can become a thing of the past. My colleague José García Bes and I have dedicated ourselves to the task of deciphering the seemingly impossible and have discovered a logical framework that can be used to explain English phrasal verbs. Our quest for the answers led us to the medieval period and has been a sort of linguistic archeology. There are 41 particles (prepositions or adverbs) that combine with verbs to form phrasal verbs. We have identified almost 4000 different definitions which fit within the framework of our hypothesis, and I am sure that the average student would find 4000 different definitions a daunting sum to commit to memory. We have found that one only needs to know the general significance of each particle in order to have a command of the verbs, thus reducing the problem by a hundredfold. Without giving the game away completely, I will give an example of how easy the problem can be overcome. Each particle represents a social level, activities or events, or locations where these societies and events took place during the medieval period. The following is our explanation of the phrasal verbs that take the particles around/about. The particles in this case can be used as alternatives such as roll around, or roll about. When the particle about is used with no alternative, then the significance of the particle is different from the meaning of around/about. The particle around, when used with no alternative is also different from the meaning when it is used with around/about Around/About

Around/about suggests situations, actions, attitudes and certain activities that took place around the medieval town centre or market-place, but unrelated to commercial activities such as buying or selling and overwhelmingly suggest the following: idleness, time-wasting, and non-production, people who are common, badly behaved, ill-mannered, clownish, unsophisticated, lacking control and being spectators at a show. Several verbs give a clue as to the meaning of around/about: fool, horse, lark, play and slap. Here we have key elements of street theatre dating from medieval times that continue to be widely represented in many parts of rural England and can be seen in the performances of today’s Morris Dancers. Morris Dancing is a traditional pastime in many parts of England performed in the open air as a form of street theatre. The dancers are troupes of men who continue the traditions of folk-dancing and mummer’s plays ( a simplistic type of early theatre depicting the struggle between good and evil, often religious in content but retaining pagan symbolism from the pre-Christian era). For more information go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_dance The street theatre in those days was ribald, bawdy and unrefined, with unambiguous use of references to bodily functions as a basis for much of their humour and comedy, which today we call ‘toilet humour’ The spectators would crowd around/about, sit, lie, roll, hang, wait, gad, and mill around/about. The actors were looked down on by the upper-classes as vagabonds, wastrels, prostitutes and sturdy beggars, and as such subject to imprisonment and hard-labour. “I see she’s going around with that boy again”. Here we suspect that “that boy” is not someone who you would like your daughter to go about with, the inference is tacit, yet is obvious when one hears the words spoken because the inflection of the voice makes it so. This is one of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, that the profoundly deaf native speakers have difficulties with phrasal verbs. If they cannot hear the subtleties of the voice, they are only left with the words, which confound the listener as they confound the foreign student. The public was entertained by the antics of the players who often poked fun at people in the audience as well as within their own group of actors, as still happens today at many morris dancing events. Two of the most important protagonists of these ancient plays remain with us in the morris dancing teams, the fool and the hobby-horse. The fool, armed with an inflated pig’s bladder on a stick would hit victims, selected at random from the audience (knock sb/sth around/about). Slap means to hit with the open hand to cause a painful stinging sensation but little or no damage. The fool would hit people with a slapstick, a device made of wood with a loose, hinged section. When a blow is delivered with the stick it produces a loud crack that gives the spectator the impression that the blow was hard, violent and obviously painful, whereas the exact opposite is true. From this comes the expression “slapstick comedy”. The fool would lark around/about (lark being a derivative of laik, meaning to play or not do work, and is still commonly used in many parts of northern England). The antics of the fool appealed to the coarser nature of the crowd with references to arse, bum, fart, piss, bugger and fuck. He may even poke, sniff, scratch, touching his victim in a genuine or simulated sexual manner in order to get cheap laughs from the victims friends and other spectators, who then fall or roll about/around laughing. Sniffing around the crowd, the clown could show delight at some apparent perfume and conjure flowers the clothing of a victim of his attentions, or showing disgust at some apparent stench, produce a dead rat, cheers and laughs all round. It is no coincidence that today’s morris dancers delight the crowds by performing in the street, but always outside a pub or country inn. The dancing appears to have only two reasons for being. One is to dance to entertain and the other is to spend the money collected from the bystanders on alcoholic drink, such as beer or cider and hence the chosen venue being outside the pub. When drinking a toast to the health of the company these days, glasses are raised and gently tapped together. Medieval revellers under the influence of large amounts of alcohol were less refined, clashing their metal tankards together so that beer or wine sloshed (spilled) out of their drinking vessels and onto the table or floor. To slosh money around/about, now means to have money to waste, as in the wasted beer that is spilled. Horse around/about comes from the hobby-horse, a regular protagonist in mummer’s plays and a common feature in many morris teams. For more information go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby-horse The hobby-horse capering around could quite easily knock over a small child or bump into one of the spectators, thus meaning to behave in a way that is both careless and potentially dangerous. Our journey into the world of phrasal verbs has taken us down many thorny paths, with more than a few dead-ends. We have not been able to accommodate each and every verb that has been decided by consensus of opinion to be a phrasal verb, but this can be explained by the fact that the language is evolving. Many phrasal verbs are modern, such as “log on”, “switch off” etc. and have nothing to do with the medieval world, yet we have identified a common base for some modern phrasal verbs within the context of our explanation. So if you can wait a little while until our publication is available, hold on, you can look forward to an easier way to master these demons and learn a little history at the same time. We are forging ahead and if our plans do not fall through, you should be able to count on seeing it in February. For further information contact me at jgbkjd@yahoo.com.ar

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 20:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

more phrasal verbs decoded, At explained

At explained

The particle at appears to be the goal or objective of opportunists who attempt to take advantage whenever possible. Some verbs show an endeavour to do something by the subject but we do not know if the attempt was successful or the goal was attained. The objects of some verbs are close to the subject, being within arms reach or at a distance that can be covered by a leap. The particle is always followed by the accusative which denotes the importance of the object, or goal. Because there is much effort in trying to accomplish something but no evidence of it being successful, there is a feeling that the subject is somebody who has not quite mastered the art of his craft, rather like an apprentice. So we can think of at as being more to do with adolescents rather than more mature and proficient adults. There is much rough and tumble, grabbing, grasping, snatching, with sudden attacking, leaping, jumping, flinging, throwing, and flying at the target or objective, verbs that are aggressive in nature. Therefore who are these aggressive apprentices? During the Middle Ages, vassals, who were people who swore allegiance to a nobleman in return for land, would send their sons to the lord’s castle at the age of seven, where they lived as a page to the noble family, this being the first stage in their preparation to be a knight. For the next seven years, the child was brought up by the women of the household, helping in the kitchens, serving at the table and being taught how to behave. At fourteen the page became an esquire. During the next seven years, the esquire (or squire) was educated in all aspects of combat and warfare becoming a master of fighting on foot or on horseback proficient in the use of sword and shield, mace, axe and lance. Training daily with these weapons, the young adolescent developed a strong physique and stamina. When not training for combat his duties were to serve his knight, look after the knight's armour and weapons and accompany him to tournaments acting as the knight’s personal assistant. Though strong and formidable combatants, they were still adolescents and had all the traits of juvenile behaviour. Groups of these young men who accompanied their knights to the tournaments very often became a source of trouble, picking fights with the esquires of other knights, or even fighting amongst themselves. The tournaments were very popular and drew large crowds, knights and esquires from all parts of the country and even abroad. These juveniles were a serious problem, clashes between opposing groups resulted in death and injury, not only amongst themselves but also amongst the local populace. The breakdown of law and order, pillaging, raping and deaths were so common, that in 1260 King Richard the First issued the Statute of Arms. This was a law that restricted any knight attending a tournament to a maximum of three squires. The squires were required by law to wear the badge of their knight, so that they could be identified. The statute also declared that: “”…no Knight or Esquire serving at the Tournament, shall bear a sword pointed, or Dagger pointed, or Staff or Mace, but only a broad sword for tourneying”. Failing to obey the statute meant the forfeiture of horse and harness, arms and armour and three or more years in the dungeon. This shows how problematic and out of control these young men were; anyone familiar with the world of football hooligans will see exactly what we are talking about. There are several verbs meaning to ‘suddenly attack’. To come at sb means to move in the direction of sb as if to attack them as in fly at sb, go at sb. There are attempts to take hold of something, the movement is sudden, as if on impulse, eg. to grab, grasp leap, snatch, and throw. These suggest a melee, rather like a scrum in the game of rugby and the particle with several verbs are synonymous with the verb ‘to tackle’ as in rugby (which is the action of one player throwing himself at an opposite team member who has got the ball, his arms locked around the legs, in order to bring him to the ground). Throw yourself at sth, and go at sth, meaning to start to do sth such as a job or difficult task, working hard to do it and getting the job finished. There is opportunism, as in jump at sth, leap at sth and snatch at sth , meaning to accept an opportunity with enthusiasm. To stick at sth meaning to work in a determined way, tackling the problem until it has been overcome. Although there is an element of surprise, the surprise is always on the part of the victim, who has been assessed as a possible easy target by the attacker. Examples are look at sth meaning to closely examine, think or consider about sth, and to put sth at sth, meaning to estimate the age or weight etc. of sth. In this case the ‘sth’ is the target to be attacked. After looking at and putting sth at sth, the attacker can decide whether the target or victim will be easily overcome. If, because of the age, weight, size and probable fighting ability of the examined target is rather too much of a challenge, the young squire would go in search of an easier target. The knight was a mature and accomplished suitor, with refined powers of seduction, the esquire however was a juvenile lacking in his master’s polished skills of love. Therefore we have fling and throw oneself at sb, a clumsy attempt at seduction, with the result that other squires would laugh at him. A successful squire who managed to attract his desired maiden, could have received a knowing look from a fellow esquire, who would wink at his advances. Likewise, to wink at sth is to show acknowledgement of sth that sb has done that is illegal, or for the squire, perhaps a breach of the code of chivalry. The squire could be criticised for behaving badly by his knight who would talk at him, or level sth at him, thus giving the squire a cause to worry at sth, being anxious or preoccupied about some problem or the future outcome of a passed misdemeanour. Play, to act as if you are, or to pretend to be, when used with at suggests the horse-play of the squires in a rough and tumble, but without any serious intent to cause injury. With peck, pick and sniff at sth, we can see the young squire who is accustomed to eating fine food from his master’s table, showing distaste at food not cooked to his liking.

kevin chuca

kvinchuca2004@yahoo.com.ar

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 21:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Kevin and Serapio, ah yes, the problem of the phrasal verb. This article does try to make it clear in the first two sections (Idiomatic or literal verb-particle constructions) and (Grammar in literal verb-particle construction).

Some grammarians claim that only the figurative (that is the idiomatic or metaphorical) usage should be called phrasal verb. That is what it is all about, namely whether you include an idiomatic phrase such as "to go about it in the right way" which is a metaphor, as nobody imagines that you are actually walking about or around the job you are trying to do; or whether also include a literal statement such as "I am going across the road". Some teachers, grammarians and linguists adopt the pure definition of only idiomatic usage, as in the first example, and some include the literal verb + (uninflected) particle/prefix as the second example indicates. Transitive or intransitive really has little to do with it.

I don't think I need to refer to any websites which only advocate idiomatic usage as you seem to be referring mainly to the original definition of phrasal verb, namely the idiomatic one anyway, I feel you need only to look at some of the first samples I "came across", to give you an idea just how many experts include the purely literary verb-particle construction.

Here are some: http://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/prepositions.html and

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/esl/eslphrasal.html

and http://takeoff.to/phrasalverbs. Dieter Simon 01:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

One more thing, as also explained in the article, idiomatic phrasal verbs are the ones which have to be learned by heart, irrespective of their actual form, as their parts cannot be understood by themselves or together, while literal verbs + particle/prefix have to be analysed as to whether their parts can be understood by themselves or together. Dieter Simon 01:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The verbs I see called phrasal verbs on those sites are either non-literal or separable (permitting particle movement), and the definitions include idiomaticity/unanalyzability. What I meant by transitivity is that if the particle is transitive (i.e. it it is a true preposition) then while it can be a phrasal verb, it isn't a verb-partical construction.

Serapio 21:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The placement of the object in phrasal verbs

The various forms of phrasal verbs

Phrasal verbs can be transitive or intransitive, separable or inseparable. The object or accusative can in the cases of separable phrasal verbs be placed before or after the particle. With inseparable phrases, the object/accusative is fixed and its position either before or after the particle cannot be changed by the speaker. Our analysis has shown that the position of the object/accusative assigns an importance, diminished importance, or a complete lack of importance from the speakers point of view. If the particle is followed by the object/accusative then the importance is clearly shown. If the object/accusative precedes the particle it has a diminished or lack of importance. If the object/accusative can go before or after the particle, as is the case in separable phrases, then the importance assigned to it is decided by position the speaker places it. The separable phrases are commonly described as having the same meaning, no matter where the object/accusative is placed, either before or after the particle and in general this may be true, however there is a difference, so small as to be unnoticed. There nevertheless occasions when the object/accusative sounds to be misplaced to the ears of a native speaker. There are in many phrases a word order that is generally accepted to be the norm, and a diversion from this order would immediately be noticed by a native speaker and not necessarily by a non-native. For example, the colours of the Union Jack (the British national flag), are red, white and blue. If somebody described them as blue red and white, they are technically correct, but the native speaker would sense an uncomfortable feeling that the speaker was not quite right, or had spoken incorrectly.

There are many example of this: bacon and eggs (correct) eggs and bacon (uncomfortable). Black and white films (correct) white and black films (uncomfortable). Cup and saucer (correct) saucer and cup (uncomfortable).

Some of this is purely convention, while some of it conveys some element of non-specificity. Grandma might say "hand me your cup and saucer" - indicating she wants those items and any accoutrements with them such as a spool, while another speaker might say "pass me your saucer and cup" to indicate only the specific objects; a speaker might order "bacon and eggs" but when asked what they are eating respond "eggs and bacon" (particularly among people who regularly consume "sausage, eggs and bacon").

On the other hand, "Black and white film" is an example of what is essentially a compound proper noun like "pickup truck" or "sports car", a fact often obscured by the presence of the "a" word. Kfsone 05:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing in English grammar that rules the order of these words and to a non-native speaker the fact that all the information is there, is all that matters, but the uncomfortable sensation felt by the native demonstrates that something very subtle is going on. The same applies to the separable phrasal verbs. In most instances the subtle difference is unnoticed even by the native, yet in speaking the word order used demonstrates a particular importance or diminished importance that has subconsciously been attached by the speaker. For example. “that man is chatting my girl-friend up”, in this phrase, I have given a diminished importance to my “girl-friend” and there is a subtle sense of indifference to the situation. Whereas “that man is chatting up my girl-friend”, in this phrase ‘my girl-friend’ is after the particle and is subtly stressed. “My girl-friend” is shown to have more importance in this phrase and there is an implied sense of indignation as opposed to indifference.

When we use a pronoun instead of naming the object/accusative, the pronoun always goes before the particle. The reason being that once the object has been named the attached importance to the person or thing is slightly diminished, but the importance can be restated by the repetition of the name. For example, “Is your girl-friend called Sarah?” “Yes why?” “Well, that man is chatting her up ”. “Bloody hell, you’re right, he’s chatting up my Sarah”. Here the indignation is obvious because of the naming of the girl a second time. If the phrase was “yes he’s chatting her up” the indignation felt by the speaker and heard by the listener would depend on the inflection of the voice, whereas in “my Sarah”, there is no doubt how the speaker feels.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 02:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Let down!

As you keep insisting it this talk page, I know it's not easy to define phrasal verbs to the layman. But this article is utterly confusing, right from the start. The reader doesn't get what a phrasal verb is from the introduction (some simple examples should help A LOT), and after that it looks like a scholarly discussion about the nature of phrasal verbs. The examples are the worse, since you don't clarify what part of them actually IS a phrasal verb!!

It's lovely that you discuss so passionately phrasal verbs in this talk page, but for goodness' sakes, try to make this article (and any other you attempt to make) accessible to everyone! There HAS to be an easier way to define Phrasal verbs! Kreachure 19:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Complicated

The article in Simple English is much easier to understand. I think that means this article is unnecessarily difficult. John 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree it is easier to understand, and this article needs some serious reworking. But note that the Simple English article also messes up the distinction between phrasal verbs and normal verb + preposition, calling "come into" a phrasal verb but not using it in one of the "come into" phrasal verb senses [1]. The trouble is that for it's a somewhat subtle distinction. Any ESL teachers out there willing to do a rewrite? -- Serapio 02:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Need a definition

The very beginning of the article, where the phrasal verb is defined, refers to an "uninflected" preposition, adverb, or adverbial particle. As I understand inflectional morphology, it is never applied to any of these categories of word in English. What is meant by "uninflected," here, if it is not redundant? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.156.211 (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

You have a good point actually, but help is at hand. There is an article uninflected word which will explain all you want to know, I am sure. Dieter Simon 23:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Dieter Simon 01:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Confusing? Yes.

OK so it seems that we've created a confusing article. Instead of arguing about definitions we should be simplifying this article for those who will actually read it. Some of us believe that phrasal verbs are only those which portray an idiomatic and unobvious meaning while many people accept that a phrasal verb can be literal or non-literal. Many coursebooks are similarly confused. Personally I would accept items like '"take out" the trash' (obvious meaning) as being a phrasal verb just as I would accept that 'He recently "gave up" smoking' (less obvious meaning) as a phrasal verb also. Xanucia 22:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Particle adverbs and modifying adverbs and where they are positioned

From the article:

When modifying adverbs are used alongside particle adverbs intransitively (as particle adverbs usually are), the adverbs can appear in any verb/particle/adverb positions:

• “He unhappily looked round”.
• “He looked unhappily round”.
• “He looked round unhappily”.

It seems that not all three forms work in all cases. Consider: He quickly let go, he let quickly go, he let go quickly. I find that the looked unhappily form seems incorrect. Similarly, light switch operation doesn't work in the first case: he off switched the light, he switched off the light, he switched the light off.

Kfsone 06:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"Let go" is indeed the infinitival form of the verb "to go", yes , it can form a phrasal verb as in this case. The example you quote: "he off switched the light" has never been mentioned at all, the correct usages would have been: "he switched the light off", "he switched off the light", or the third version, "he switched it off". You are introducing difficulties where there are none.

While "unhappily" is the modifying adverb for the verb "look", you can indeed use it in all the three ways mentioned. You may have a preferred idiosyncratic way of expressing yourself, and of course it depends on which of the words in the sentence you want to stress, but as such all three versions are perfectly alright. Don't let the fact throw you, that the the meaning might be somewhat unusual. If you wanted to stress the word "unhappily" when being interrogated, a questioner's "he looked unhappily round the room"? could indeed be answered with "he looked unhappily round", with the stress on "unhappily". We are talking about the many ways English may be used correctly. Dieter Simon 11:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Idiomatic usage

It is precisely idiomatic usage which is so important as far as phrasal verbs are concerned. Probably a good half of all phrasal verbs are used idiomatically, how you can even think of separating out those from them rest I don't understand. Isn't that what the section on "Idiomatic Usage" is all about? The rest is taken care of by the section "Direct and indirect objects" because that is precisely what you have here: "to beat (verb) a path (direct object) to (preposition) someone's door (indirect object)". Idioms are part of the story of phrasal verbs. Dieter Simon (talk) 00:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I missed this post. See below for my comments. --DrHacky (talk) 13:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"To beat a path to someone's door"

Another, but much more difficult, example is “to beat a path to someone’s door.”

an idiomatic phrasal verb meaning “to go and see someone frequently and in large numbers, because the person in demand represents someone well-known, successful and/or famous, and it is important that those calling at the door are able to speak to the person".

“The reporters were beating a path to the celebrity’s door.”

The above section has been the focus of a recently brewing edit war.

I agree that it's an idiomatic phrase, but dispute that it is a phrasal verb. Saying it's a phrasal verb means that "to beat to" is a phrasal verb with its own meaning which is unmodified by whatever noun it is associated with. However "beat a path to one's door" is a unique phrase which can not substitute a different noun for "path" without changing the meaning or making it meaningless, as the idiom page well-explains; i.e.- If it were a phrasal verb, "beat a road", "beat a highway" or "beat a passage to" would all be valid constructions, in the same way that "pick up a language", "pick up some tips", "pick up the basics" and "pick up a new skill" are valid constructions of "pick up". However, "beat a path to one's door" is the only used form of the idiom, so it doesn't fit the definition of phrasal verb given in the lead, being "verb + preposition(s)/adverb(s)".

That's my take on it, but I'm willing to concede if it can be backed up with a reference from a dictionary of phrasal verbs. There are many other examples of idiomatic phrasal verbs which could be included if the section in question needs expanding- "pick up", with a variety of meanings, "to (be) put out", or "work out" are a few that come to mind. --DrHacky (talk) 13:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The real problem, of course, is that of the direct object (as I have already mentioned). Wherever you have a combination of a phrasal verb (in this case “to beat to”) with a direct object, it looks at first sight as though no phrasal verb is present. Although “to beat to” as a phrasal verb does not exist on its own, it certainly does in combination with a direct object (“a path”). There is actually another “to beat to” phrasal verb construction, that of “the boy beat his sister to the finishing line” (“pipped her at the post”). So advice to English learners: look for the phrasal verb in complicated sentences, it may be with a direct object.

As for “to beat a path to someone’s door”, as an idiom it is far from unique. Rosemary Courtney mentions in her introduction the third type of phrasal verb entries, that of idioms, including “(to) let the cat out of the bag”. What about other idioms such as “to add insult to injury”, “to add fuel to the flames”, “to leave someone in the lurch”, or “to scare someone to death”? They all have a direct object combined with a phrasal verb.

We should not be worried that the actual original meaning of the combination of the various parts of a phrasal verb sentence is now difficult to establish. In “beat the path”, for example, the more times feet run across the same soil or grass, the more likely it becomes that a firm grassless path is the result. However, what we should consider, is that all the idioms started out in the same way as any ordinary everyday statement. The original meaning of to “beat a path” was to “lay a path”, as may be seen in any dictionary. To separate this type of idiom (verb + direct object + adverb/preposition + indirect object) from modern turns of phrase is quite preposterous. Phrases such as “to raze a building to the ground”, “to reach the city by the next day”, “to buy vegetables by the kilo”, or “to leave one’s purse in the shop” (the numbers of examples are infinite), one day may well turn into idioms themselves.

So, I am going to revert the latest and re-enter the example. Dieter Simon 01:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The sequence "beat a path to" cannot be a phrasal verb according to the definition given at the beginning of the article (because it contains a noun). Neither can "beat to" (not a "complete semantic unit"). The fact that "door" is also part of the expression moves this example clearly out of the scope of this article, and into more general idiom territory. Moreover, the disputed text is not written in an encyclopedic style: "much more difficult" (according to what source?), where did the quoted definition come from? (And why do you believe that beating the path is idiomatic, but that calling at the door is literal?). And finally, in my opinion, the main purpose of this article is not to give advice to learners of English, and so providing more and more complicated examples is not useful. If you are worried that people might not realized that a phrasal verb can be split up by a direct object, this issue is already covered in another section of the article (Direct and Indirect objects).

In language and grammar articles, the rules about OR and citing sources can be somewhat relaxed, as long as other editors are watching, and there is consensus. But in cases of dispute, reliable sources must be provided before re-introducing the material in question. (For example, the Oxford dictionary of phrasal verbs does not include this idiom among its 12 phrasal verbs involving beat.) CapnPrep 12:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again I have reintroduced previous material and have added a direct citation of the original source of the points I have been making. Although dictionaries are not normally cited, this being a dictionary of actual phrasal verbs must surely be taken into account. As well as including further examples of idioms as constructed by verb + direct objects + preposition/adverb + indirect object, part of the introduction has been included. If you criticise this inclusion you will have to criticise the source first, which you are at liberty to do, but you need to say so.

I had mentioned and agreed that "to beat to" is not a complete semantic unit. However, it becomes a semantic unit, namely that of a phrasal verb sentence in that it uses the verb plus the preposition and or adverb (which modifies the indirect object). What else would the preposition or adverb combine with but a verb in these examples. They belong with the verb whether we like or not. I hope I have made my reasons somewhat clearer now. Dieter Simon 15:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the source: it states clearly that these examples are not themselves phrasal verbs, but idioms containing phrasal verbs. Your use of the phrase "idiomatic phrasal verb" a few sentences later is not justified by this source. And aren't the examples taken directly from Longman good enough to illustrate your point? Why insist on including a "much more difficult elsewhere more rarely-seen" example with a definition that you apparently made up yourself? If I say "As soon as she heard the news, she beat a path to my door to confront me about it", it means that she came quickly and purposefully: not frequently, not in large numbers, not to see someone well-known, successful and/or famous, and of course there may be no actual door involved. CapnPrep 15:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, have removed redundant "to beat a path", and have fixed the source. Article looks good now. Well done. Dieter Simon 18:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm afraid I still don't agree.

Other idioms show a verb + direct object + preposition/adverb + indirect object construction:

In her introduction to "Longman Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs, What this dictionary contains", Rosemary Courtney includes as a third category

3. Idioms which are formed from phrasal verbs, such as let the cat out of the bag. These idioms are printed in heavy type. Idioms have a meaning which is different to the meaning of the single words, and usually have a fixed word order.[3]

Courtney then cites among many other examples in the dictionary such phrases as "to add insult to injury", "to add fuel to the flames", "to leave someone in the lurch", "to scare someone out of their wits", etc.

I have a couple of issues with this inclusion. First, it says "other idioms", which is a non-sequitur as the topic of discussion is idiomatic usage of phrasal verbs, not idioms. The examples given later are all idioms, which contain arguable phrasal verbs, but which would nonetheless be better suited to a section in the Idioms article, "Idioms containing phrasal verbs". Adding them here does little to explain idiomatic phrasal verbs, of which we currently have only one example.

Further, the method of quotation and the text quoted is quite awkward. It is not a definition per se, but the key to the dictionary. A discussion of this type of idiom and its relevance would be more appropriate, not just a passing note on how they are indicated in the dictionary.

Its sentences may, however, contain direct and indirect objects in addition to the phrasal verb.

This sentence gives little information, and is also awkwardly written with "Its sentences". Saying that a sentence may contain a direct and indirect object because it has a phrasal verb says no more than "Some sentences with verbs have direct objects, indirect objects or no objects."

Identification of phrasal verbs as transitive or intransitive, separable or inseparable, is important and is somewhat addressed in the body of the article, but this sentence in the lede doesn't help the understanding of that issue. Actually, it's possible that some of the discussion of such identification has been made less clear with CapnPrep's recent restructure, and I would argue for the reintroduction of those headings. Cheers,--DrHacky (talk) 13:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

From the very beginning of this discussion you had a problem with the inclusion of the use of verb + direct object, etc. construction in a discussion on phrasal verbs. The sheer fact that several sources have been included which obviously count among phrasal verb examples precisely these verb + indirect object phrases doesn't seem to matter to you. In the introductory section itself a source has been included [[2]] which in an article on "Phrasal verbs as idioms", refers to "transitive phrases that can take a direct object", which you seem to have ignored. OK, a few style changes may be necessary in the article text, but please don't tell me that direct object phrasal verbs should not be included. Examples such as this belong to an article on phrasal verbs, whether you like it or not. By all means, include it in an "Idiom" article as well, but it certainly belongs to this article. If you have a problem with it perhaps you should turn to the writers of the sources cited, and discuss it with them. All I have done is cite what they have said, which is as it should be. Dieter Simon (talk) 02:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Terminology

I took out most of the reference to the "transitive" vs "intransitive", "separable" vs "inseparable" distinctions, because these terms are neither useful nor accurate for describing phrasal verbs (and the sources that I have consulted do not use them). In a verb-particle combination, it is important to know if the verb takes an object and if the particle takes an object; labeling the entire phrasal verb "transitive" or "intransitive" is inadequate and confusing, because in fact there are 4 possibilities. For "separability", there are also more than two options, and sources that call every phrasal verb either separable or inseparable are (implicitly) assuming particular definitions of these terms in order to cover all cases. That said, since the terminology is used in some of the literature (for learners of English, for example) we might discuss if and how it can be treated in the article. CapnPrep (talk) 11:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, agreed, but the trouble is that if there is a phrasal verb + direct object phrase, it does occur in transitive instances. Yes, I agree too, that most of the citations in articles (there are over a thousand in Yahoo alone, some of which may be discounted as quotes from Wiki sources) refer to teaching learners. However, who are we to disallow these? Aren't we writing an encyclopaedia rather than a learned treatise addressed to peers already well-versed in the intricacies of linguistics? Perhaps the association of transitive verb and direct object might be made clearer? However, I don't think it should be ignored, rephrased but not ignored. Dieter Simon (talk) 12:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

This illustrates what I was saying about using apparently familiar terms without providing explicit definitions of how they are applied specifically to phrasal verbs. When you say "phrasal verb + direct object", I don't know for sure what that means (look up + an old friend, look at + an old painting, or both of these?). I also don't understand what "occur in transitive instances" means. CapnPrep (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

All I meant was we can't really ignore instances when a someone on a website (often a university site) is explaining phrasal verbs taking the direct object. In the BBC World Service website the phrasal verb with adverb or preposition is being discussed which takes a direct object [[3]]

In the UHV site under the heading "Phrasal verbs as idioms" is stated "transitive phrases are those that can take a direct object", etc.[[4]]. All I am saying is that we really have to come to terms with these efforts being made out there. Sources in Wikipedia are the be all and end all, and when you look at these sources they have to be taken into account. As for "using apparently familiar terms without providing explicit definitions of how they are applied specifically...", you changed the original lay-out. Wouldn't it have been up to you supply these definitions in their new context? The trouble with these direct object phrases is that neither you yourself nor DrHacky are happy with them, but they are being taught out there. Just try "phrasal verb" "direct object" (with the quotation marks) on either Google or Yahoo, and see the results! We can't just insist on what we ourselves "know", we have to take account what others, for the most part respectable sources, teach. If we don't, then readers coming straight from those other sources will be confused. That's all I meant. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I never said I had a problem with direct objects. (I still do have a problem with talking about idiomatic direct objects before giving examples of ordinary direct objects.) And I did supply definitions of "transitive" and "intransitive" for particle verbs, didn't I? I deliberately chose not to use these terms for prepositional verbs, because they are confusing and used inconsistently across sources. The previous version of the article said that walked across the bridge was "a transitive verb", presumably to distinguish it from walked across, intransitive. But then what is walked his dog across the bridge? So the solution I chose was to distinguish particle verbs and prepositional verbs, and then refer to the presence or absence of a direct object in both cases. This is what I "know" from sources like Quirk et al. and CGEL, but I can't cite them directly at the moment. Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "indirect object" in the article. CapnPrep (talk) 13:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Last question answered first: "indirect object"? What everybody else understands by it: "the grammatical object representing the secondary target of the verb in the action".

Courtney gives two examples:

• "I put his bad temper down to his recent illness"
• verb object adv. prep. object

• "Can I help you to some more potatoes?
• verb object prep object
  

She calls this kind of phrasal verb construction 'a transitive verb with two objects: a direct noun object and a noun indirect object.' The whole is under "Grammar codes for the phrasal verbs", and all of it is part of the dictionary for phrasal verbs. I can see that indirect objects might not need to be included in a discussion about the transitivity of direct objects, but there it is. Where there is one source which does so there will be others doing it too. As I said Google has over 4,560 websites which include 'indirect objects' in the articles about 'phrasal verbs'. I have only gone up three pages and they seemed well-wrought academical sites. Dieter Simon (talk) 00:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not what everybody understands "indirect object" to mean; this is a notoriously vague label. Depending on the source, this term can refer to (i) a very specific kind of object (expressing the recipient with a verb of giving, corresponding to the dative argument in other languages) — this seems to be the definition assumed in the Object (grammar) article, (ii) any argument of the verb that is introduced by for or to, (iii) any NP that is introduced by any preposition whatsoever, etc. etc. Courtney is to be applying a wider definition than (I believe) most people would go along with. I think a better term would be "prepositional object" (this would also be more consistent with Object). CapnPrep (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, who is to judge whether any of the sources likely to be cited are correct? If sources are relevant to the subject and respectable as to their derivation, which we must take into account, how can we say it is not worthy of inclusion? The Wikipedia way is to take sources which disagree and juxtapose both or all opinions within the encyclopaedia, give the opinions as they are being presented and let the readers make up their mind about them. That is the way to solve a controversy. In British libraries, you used to be able to ask them to request a book from other libraries if they didn't stock it themselves. Whether they still do, I don't know. The point I am making is that we shouldn't just ignore all those sources out there even if they don't agree with our opinions. Availability of the sources should never be a problem, neither should their citability. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Copula "in love with"

Hmm, I was writing up some computer code to pull these from free text, and came across one that is not reviewed in this article: "I was IN LOVE WITH her" -- two prepositions, but the verb of interest is not "was" but is "love". linas (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an idiomatic phrase and has only one verb "was", the infinitive being "to be in love with". "Love" in this phrase is not another verb but a noun which together with "to be" means "to love (someone) deeply". Does that help? Dieter Simon (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

treebank

It seems that if one has a set of sentences marked up in tree-bank style, then most of the various examples given in this page seem to fall into about a dozen different treebank patterns. For example:

"We LOOK AFTER our children."

(VP look (PP after (NP our children)))

The words can be pattern-matched to:

(VP accept (PP accept (NP reject)))

Anyone have experience with this? Are there published lists of these? At least shallowly, this seems to work well. I suspect there are crazy exceptions but I haven't really found many. linas (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk down to

how would you classify "talk down to" (as in to speak to someone as if you were better than them)? particle verb with two particles, one transitive, one intransitive? Adavies42 (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

"To talk down to" consists of a verb + adverb (down) + preposition (to) as "down" in this instance modifies the verb "to talk" and "to" is the preposition before the following noun/pronoun. All adverbs and prepositions are uninflected words and therefore are grammatical particles, so, yes, "down" and "to" are particles. It is what their functions are rather than whether they are transitive/intransitive, that matters. (They are also called function words for that reason). Dieter Simon (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Other Languages

I'm curious, Are there other languages that make use widespread, or even any, use of phrasal verbs? Perhaps we can list some of those languages? Cornince (talk) 05:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)