Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/SlimVirgin-Lar/Proposed decision

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Comments

What, no sanctions on Slimvirgin for wasting everyone's time and falsely accusing someone? Jtrainor (talk) 22:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like her accusation will be found to be without merit, and she will be reminded. There is an embarrassing finding that she did not respond to ArbCom. Isn't that enough? ... I guess she could have been "cautioned" or "admonished" but there is no real difference in effect. And anything more serious? Desysopping? No. The problem did not involve use of tools. Temporary block? To prevent... what exactly? The incident is over. What could be done in addition? Some sort of punishment is the only option I can think of. And WP does not do punishment; ArbCom does not do punishment. Jd2718 (talk) 22:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

This anonymous and uninvolved user agrees that blocking and such would serve no purpose, but still thinks something a little more strongly worded seems to be in order. Say: "Slimvirgin is reprimanded for bringing serious accusations against other users which were probably false, and which she has in any case failed to substantiate; for doing so in an inappropriate forum, and in so doing, avoidably endangering the privacy of other users; and for failing to co-operate with the Committee in investigating matters she herself had originally brought up." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.60.238.85 (talk) 02:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No sanctions is right, but the point of her not providing any evidence will haunt her forever, because this is exactly what she does, over and over again against everybody she dislikes. Together with the line in the sand, maybe we are now getting to the point where those that have been chased away by her can come back and actually do their job of creating an encyclopaedia instead of dealing with the numerous baseless accusations of SlimVirgin. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I mostly agree with kimvdl. I don't think a sanction is appropriate here, but perhaps a remedy that the findings of this case should be prominently linked to on here user/user talk page for some period of time? I'm sure the folks at the Board of outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, are up in arms over this, and furiously trying to decide who else might be a sockpuppet of sv (with a similar amount of evidence it appears). It's really to bad she didn't just email the committee with some explaination, even an irrational one. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 08:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Lets be clear, making repeated accusations everywhere without evidence is a form of harassment, and I am sure that as soon as this happens again, things will look much more grave for SV. But, the ruling in the parallel case came after this incident and you cannot fit those remedies retroactively to her/him. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 09:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything from the omnibus waste of time case should be used here. Only that perhaps remedies from this case might be linked from the sv userpages. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but it just came to me. What the committee does in the future based on future activities, is unknowable by me, and I hope no one ever has to think about it again. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 09:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the community would've preferred a more aggressive caution, but whether it is a reminder or caution, it's effect is likely to be the same in this case - I do hope and would be glad if (a) these cases aren't treated indifferently by SV, and (b) her conduct is no longer a problem. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Informally

With all due respect, does this committee even know what "informally" means? (word games aside, I think it's important that you specify exactly what you're accusing him of if this proposal is allowed to stand) --Random832 (contribs) 13:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe the use of "informally" in this proposal is simply meant to contrast with the use of the word "formal" in proposed principle 4. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Breach of privacy?

"...a technical breach of the privacy policy may have occurred..." Did this breach happen spontaneously, without human involvement? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

If Lar did something to compromise the Privacy Policy (and if ArbCom sees its role as to evaluate this), then most likely he should be admonished, or reminded to be more careful. If his actions were mitigated, that might be considered as well (for instance, by limits on data isolation, apparent good faith, or if any breach was limited and acknowledged). However, I think it's worth noting that the issue of privacy does not appear to relate to SlimVirgin, or for that matter to have been raised by anyone who was affected. The claim relating to SV, that Lar had misused checkuser, appears to have been unsupported. I think this distinction is also important since any claimed "bad faith" presumably could not be tied to the alleged privacy violation with a non-party to this case. This could be a reason not to address the privacy issue here at all, but I think should at least be pointed out. Mackan79 (talk) 23:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

"May have" is not a finding. If there is no evidence that Lar compromised the policy, the insinuation should be removed. That said, Wikitumnus seems to provide clear evidence that he did compromise the policy. We need a clear statement one way or the other. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Other evidence?

• WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 60, Issue 33, Sun Jul 20 18:30:08 UTC 2008
• Sun Jul 20 23:16:51 UTC 2008
• Mon Jul 21 00:28:38 UTC 2008
• Mon Jul 21 12:33:16 UTC 2008

In the emails linked above, SlimVirgin and Lar directly contradict each other, on matters involving Lar's wife and a third editor. Has this third editor submitted evidence? If so, does his evidence support Lar's account of events, or SlimVirgins? Tom Harrison ^Talk 22:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In the e-mails Tom links to, Lar states that his wife had had a prior involvement in the case, and had been offering advice and counsel to me, based on statements that I had made to the two of them, while SlimVirgin states that this is false, that Lar's wife and I do not know each other and have never had any interaction.

As I have repeatedly stated to the Arbitration Committee, SlimVirgin's account is accurate. I do not know Lar's wife. We have never communicated with each other, on wiki, or off wiki. As she is an active Wikipedian, I have seen her around, but would not have consented to Lar's revealing my identity to her. On ONE occasion (a few months before the usercheck) Lar mentioned to me that his wife did not understand why I didn't leave Wikipedia. (This opinion of hers was based on information that was fairly publicly known, and her opinion was not passed on to me as "advice" from his wife, or even as a question from her, but simply as a comment that she didn't understand my wish to stay.) I replied to HIM (I have never sent e-mails to both of them, and if she read what I sent to him, it was certainly without my knowledge or consent) that she was right, but explained why I did not wish to leave. I stopped communicating with him around that time.

Furthermore, I stated to the committee that I had e-mailed Lar shortly after the usercheck, admitting that this edit (the ostensible reason for the check, though since Lar proceeded to obtain and check Crum375's IPs after he discovered who I was, it's hard to believe that this was anything more than a pretext) was foolish, as it would lead trolls to speculate on my identity, but adding that it had not occurred to me that a checkuser would even look at it, as I had seen CU requests rejected with a  CheckUser is not for fishing template when the evidence was a lot stronger, and my understanding was that there had to be a valid suspicion of some wrongdoing, and there was none. It wouldn't have mattered if I had been Crum. There would have been no action to take in the event of a "confirmed" result. I never supported Crum, never edited his articles, never commented on him, voted with or for him. Apart from reverting userspace trolling (when the account was five weeks old and had about 200 edits), I never went near him. Crum375 had no record of sockpuppetry, and was an established administrator in good standing (subjected to a lot of scrutiny at Wikipedia Review). There is no policy that says it's forbidden to use an alternative account to revert vandalism from your own userpage. Lar was not using the tools to protect the project from disruption. There was no suspected disruption.

Yet within two weeks of receiving that e-mail (and that was the only e-mail in which I had referred to my opinion on the usercheck, and the committee has seen that e-mail), Lar apparently posted on the private CU mailing list (which he knew I didn't have access to so couldn't contradict him) that I had acknowledged to him that the usercheck was justified. The link is here, but I do not have access to the contents. Any checkuser will be able to confirm if Lar really said there what I believe he said. (The link comes from an e-mail sent by a checkuser to Jimbo, and copied to me, so I presume it's accurate.)

SlimVirgin has been criticized for not submitting evidence. Originally she had some real life commitments and asked for an extension. Around the same time, I was ill, and asked individual arbs was there a hurry in submitting evidence. I received a one-liner from one of them saying that they weren't rushing anything. Less then a week later, I understand SlimVirgin received an e-mail from Charles Matthews, saying that she had 48 hours to submit, and then voting would start. Nobody contacted me although they knew that I categorically denied even knowing Lar's wife (and this case should hang on the integrity of Lar, with regard to the statements he made when his conduct as CU was queried), and that I wished and intended to submit evidence. It turned out that the case was delayed, for other reasons, but I think I could be forgiven for believing that some members did not want me to submit evidence, especially as the evidence has been completely ignored in the proposed decision.

When Lar contacted me to ask permission to release my e-mails to ArbCom, I requested that he would copy me when doing so, as I was so astonished at his inaccurate claims on the enwiki mailing list, and wanted to be in a position to contradict him if he misquoted me. He agreed to my request, and I promised I would do the same. I kept faithfully to my side of the bargain. Lar sent me an e-mail telling me what he WAS GOING TO SEND to the committee. I naively assumed that he would later cc me, when actually submitting, but he never did. I have no way of knowing if he misquoted me again.

SlimVirgin made two allegations on the mailing list, one that Lar carried out a fishing check, and two, that he revealed my identity to his wife — an active Wikipedian not entrusted with the right to view sensitive information — and then invented a "prior involvement" that his wife supposedly had in the case. (Even if there had been a prior involvement, that would not have justified leaking my identity without my consent.) Regarding the first allegation, when the commitments which had delayed SlimVirgin were over, she asked to see Lar's evidence, so that she could know what claims he was making regarding the decision to carry out the check, and could base her own statements and evidence on that. She was refused, and as I have pointed out, Lar conveniently "misunderstood" my request that he would copy me when submitting evidence. Neither of us knows what claims he made privately to the ArbCom; we only know that he had previously made blatantly false claims. It is not possible for SlimVirgin to "prove" that Lar was "fishing", since it seems that any checkuser (despite the contradiction to the wording on the policy page) can carry out a check on someone he dislikes (see the emotional hostility under Oppose Vote #22 here and the unstewardlike gratuitous little dig here) and can then talk himself out of it by claiming that he sincerely believed this might be an abusive sock; nobody can prove that he didn't, though several checkusers have indicated grave discomfort with the whole incident, and I hope that if the community examine my contributions they will agree that this check was very "iffy". Regarding the second accusation, that Lar made outrageously false claims on the CU mailing list and the enwiki mailing list, SlimVirgin's (accurate) beliefs that I don't know Lar's wife and that I did not admit to Lar that the CU was justified (in fact, that I said the exact opposite to him) come from statements I made to her. She is also fully aware of the statements and evidence that I submitted to the ArbCom (and of the fact that they seem to want to pass it over entirely). She can hardly be expected to offer additional evidence of me not knowing Lar's wife. Why should the committee criticize her for not offering evidence that Lar lied about his wife "counselling" me, when they surely know that she knows of my evidence, and that she knows they chose to ignore that evidence?

For the record, I state that every claim that SlimVirgin has made about my lack of acquaintance with Lar's wife and about my statements to Lar came directly from me. If the committee members find any to be inaccurate, they must admonish me and clear her. If, on the other hand, they accept that I never interacted with Lar's wife, that I was horrified when he passed on my identity to her, that I abandoned my account as a result, and that I told him two weeks before he made this post that I did not see how the check could be justified, then they need to address these issues in their final decision.

Some committee members, for reasons best known to themselves, have been willing to ignore all this, and to leave SlimVirgin with the stigma of having made baseless allegations. Of course it is possible (though very unlikely) that they believe that I am lying, but in that case, they need to admonish me for deceiving SlimVirgin and attempting to deceive them. I requested several days ago that any member who doubted the truthfulness of my account would inform me of that, but have not received any replies. I had VERY much hoped that Kirill and James would have been willing to spare me the stress and anguish of having to go public in order to prevent this injustice from continuing. (I had told the arbitrators that I would be morally obliged to go public if they chose to leave SlimVirgin under this cloud of suspicion — a suspicion that they know to be unjust.) Their decision to allow SlimVirgin to be criticized for her frustrated reaction to outrageous untruths, while entirely passing over those untruths, endangers my privacy and brings disgrace upon them, though in fairness to James, I must acknowledge that he has not edited since I sent that appeal to the committee, and may not yet be aware of it. Wikitumnus (talk) 20:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Some problems with wording

Since ArbCom is not authorized to make policy, it is important the the wording of principles and proposed actions be worded carefully to suit the fundamental issues of the particular case. With this in mind I have some concerns with how some of the elements of this page are worded - I am not faulting ArbCom procedures or decisions, I am just trying toi alert the committee to issues that seem to have gotten lost;

• The small compromise of editor privacy that the use of this tool represents is weighed against the central role CheckUser has assumed in preserving Wikipedia's traditional way of functioning.

I have two problems. First, why on earth should the use of checkuser compromise an editor's privacy, as long as the editor is not editing in inappropriate ways? Obviously checkuser is intended to "compromise" the identity of an editor when the editor is abusing Wikipedia. The issue of privacy is only salient when the editor turns out not to be abusing Wikipedia. this distinction ought to be clear in the wording. Second, maybe this is true, but this phrasing misses the salient point for this case, which is that not all violations of privacy are equal. In some cases, compromising the privacy of an editor will cause no harm to the editor; in other cases, tremendous harm. This proposition is, frankly, useless unless if takes this distinction into account. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• Making a formal determination as to whether a breach of the privacy policy has taken place is the responsibility of the Wikimedia Ombudsman Commission, and lies outside the remit of the Committee.

maybe so, but the issue is not simply one of remit, it is also this: what knowledge does ArbCom need in order to make a fair ruling? If it needs to know whether the privacy policy has been breached to make a fair decision, then it needs to find out before it deliberates. If it is the WOC's remit, then ArbCom must request and wait for a finding by the WOC before deliberating. Without including this point, the present wording manages to be both accurate and counter-productive. it misses the ultimate issue. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• An essential element of the judgment and discretion that CheckUsers must exercise consists of balancing, each time a check is requested, the compromise of editor privacy that "running a CheckUser" necessarily represents, against the evidence of abuse of multiple accounts or other serious user misconduct. As with any discretionary decision, there are circumstances in which reasonable CheckUsers operating in good faith could disagree as to whether a given check was warranted.

I suggest that this is a test-case for revising what constitutes "probably cause" for checkuser. perhaps we can come up with a clearer algorithm for when Checkuser is necessary. I think the guidelines here could be more specific and clear about two obvious conditions: probably cause to believe an editor is using multiple accounts, AND probable cause that the user is doing so specifically and deliberately to violate Wikipedia policies. I think probably cause in both cases needs to be established before authorizing checkuser. I leave it to members of ArbCom to discuss what evidence suffices to demonstrate probable cause. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin made a series of allegations of impropriety in a large number of emails sent to the wikien-l mailing list—a public list that is archived on the web—in the third and fourth week of July. These allegations presented a negative view of the conduct of Lar and one of the Ombudsmen, Mackensen, and are part of a threaded discussion, wide-ranging and lacking in consistency.

I am curious to see how this "finding of fact" will be used. As i read it it makes two very non-controversial claims. The first is that allegations were made on the list-serve. Is the issue that she should have made the allegations on a Wikipedia talk page? Tat in my mind would have been the ideal course of action, because the fundamental virtue of Wikipedia is transparency, meaning, virtually all deliberations occur in public. But while the list-serve is less public, I think it is still transparent enough for this case, so I don't see what kind of recommendation this fact would have any bearing on. The second is that the discussion lacked consistency. But this is the nature of most dialogues or discusions. As people discuss issues, they may come to feel more or less comfortable sharing certain private matters. or they may remember something they forgot. Or they conversation itself may lead them to a new insight, or to change their mind. Discussions, whether on article talk pages or on list-serves, are not meant to be consistent arguments, they are meant to be open fora for working out evolving views. So tu summarize, this finding of fact seems redundant. Simply by saying it was discussed on the list-serve, we can infer that over time inconsistent or contradictory statements were produced, reflected on, reconsidered ... Slrubenstein | Talk 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin's choice of a forum of discussion was unhelpful, in the sense that magnification and further drama were the likely result. Given the sensitivity of the concerns, it would have been far preferable to have raised them privately with the Committee or with the Wikimedia Ombudsmen rather than in extensive public discussion—an approach that left the CheckUsers unable to fully respond and created risks to the privacy of third parties.

This profoundly concerns me because i conside the general point dangerous. Wikipedia will thrive through transparency. Virtually every abuse and scandal at Wikipedia that I know of involved some degree of a lack of transparency. The only question is, did Slim Virgin violate anything confidential or private? I am of course refering to private, personal matters. one cannot violate the privacy of the Wikipedia community which by definition is public. Frankly, I wonder whether ArbCom is projecting. Because ArbCom is in a position of power (like people authorized to use checkuser, and the Ombudsman), they do have a burden to protect people's privacy. Wikipedia editors, it seems to me, do not have any such obligation (unless it verges on illegal behavior). I certainly see an irony here in that one principle suggested is that the needs of checkuser may outweigh the privacy concerns of editors - while in this point Slim Virgin seems to be being held to a higher standard. editors should not be held to higher standards than ArbCom members or bureaucrats. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• Despite repeated requests from the Committee, as well as several extensions of the submission deadline, SlimVirgin has failed to provide the Committee with a clear and substantive statement of complaint in this matter.

The question is, why? Has she been asked and been given an opportunity to answer this question? has any other editor provided ArbCom with evidence that explains why SlimVirgin may not have given a complete sentence? If, as ArbCom has already suggested, editors may have obligations to protect the confidentiality or privacy of others, this may constrain them in the nature of statements they give to ArbCom. For ArbCom to make a fair ruling, it needs to know whethe this is the case or not. Otherwise, ArbCom risks turning into Wikipedia's version of the HUAC. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• In sum, SlimVirgin has been quick to make statements potentially damaging to other editors, but tardy in matters of clarification, mediation, and resolution of the points that she has raised.

I find this odd given that the first proposed principle here as much as admits that someone (Lar?) violated privacy in using checkuser. If ArbCom itself admits that checkuser was abused in this way, how much more clarificaion does SlimVirgin need to provide? Again, I see a kind of projection: since someone with CheckUser violated someone's privacy, Arbom now asks an editor to do the same. But two wrongs do not make a right. Slrubenstein | Talk 05:03, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• Having received an explanation of his carrying out the check at issue, and of the circumstances surrounding it, the Committee finds that the checks run by Lar in March 2008 fell within the acceptable range of CheckUser discretion.

This is surely misworded. Surely, ArbCom means to say, "Having received an explanation of his carrying out the check at issue, and of the circumstances surrounding it, and having considered evidence presented by other interested parties about the check at issue, the Committee finds that the checks run by Lar in March 2008 fell within the acceptable range of CheckUser discretion." Right? The fundamental issue here is the question of Lar's alleged abuse of power. Certainly a man has the right to defend himself. But when a person in power is accused of abusing authority, a finding of fact cannot be made solely on the basis of the person in power's statement. This only compounds any abuse of power. The findings of fact must be based on evidence gathered from a variety of sources. I know that others besides Slim Virgin have presented evidence. Even if SV's own statement was incomplete, Arbcom has to take into account evidence provided by others. This ought to be rephrased to make it clear that ArbCom's finding of fact is not based solely on Lar's say-so. Slrubenstein | Talk 05:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• Informally, the Committee notes that a technical breach of the privacy policy may have occurred in this case; but that, given the limitations of our operating environment with regards to data isolation, it is unclear whether any reasonable means for preventing breaches of this nature are available at present.

Inadequately worded. ArbCom needs to explain the difference between a "technical breach of privacy" and "a breach of privacy." Also, "reasonable" is a function of "proportional" but the wording of this statement provides only one half of the equation, the operating environment. the other half is the potential harm caused by the breach of privacy. Without knowing the potential harm it is inmpossible to say what is reasonable or unreasonable - costs must be the benefits must be measured against the costs, which includes potential for harm. Also, I again note that ArbCom is admitting that Lar abused his trust. To fault SV for refusing the betray a trust is hypocracy. Or did you guys mean to say something else? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

• The Committee reminds the users who brought the matter into the public arena rather than to a suitable dispute resolution process—in particular, SlimVirgin—that dispute resolution procedures rather than public invective remain the preferred course for addressing matters of user conduct.

Um, I think ArbCom needs to distinguish between "dispute resolution," which ought to take place in public and be transparent, and other kinds of investigations which need to be in private. I am not denying that some matters should be handled privately, but "dispute resolution" is not one of them. Again, transparency is the greatest virtue of Wikipedia, and the guarsanteur of freedom from abuse of power and of integrity. We should sacrifice transparency only under the most compelling of circumstances. The finding, that Lar's abuse of checkuser and violation of privacy is somehow tolerable, but SV's complaints are intolerable, I find hard to square. You know, this page is available to the general public. Any journalist or skeptic who reads it and sees this apparent double standard might leave with a very jaundiced view of Wikipedia. We need to avoid scandal, and double-standards like the one that aat least appears to be going on here risk scandal. Slrubenstein | Talk 05:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I have one final issue I would like to raise, because I am very troubled by a thought I have and if I am wrong I would appreciate someone explaining to me why i am wrong. This is my thought: based on the public ArbCom record, the basic facts are the following:

• SV and Lar entered into a conflict on the list-serve
• another editor opened an ArbCom case
• SV never participated in the ArbCom case
• SV is faulted for entering into the conflict on the listserve
• SV is faulted for not making a statement to ArbCom.

What disturbs me is that IF the first three facts are accurate, THEN the two conclusions are in conflict. I can see ArbCom taking one of two positions, but I cannot see it taking both. One position is: this was a conflict between SV and Lar; SV did not want to involve ArbCom, and that is fine - but if SV wanted to handle this dispute between herself and Lar, she should have approahed Lar via e-mail and handled it privately. The second position is, this kind of conflict must be handled by ArbCom and should not be left to two adults to try to resolve on their own. IF ArbCom takes the first position, then it CAN fault SV for having gone public on the list-serve, but CANNOT fault SV for not making a statement to ArbCom. IF ArbCom takes the second position, it can fault SV for not having given a statement, but cannot fault her for having aired her views on the list-serve - an ArbCom proceeding is public, and if arbCom insists on SV making her statement public, it is in no position to censor her at the list-serve where I do not think it has any jurisdiction.

It is clear that SV wished to hash out this conflict with Lar, and did not wish to take it to ArbCom. I see nothing wrong with this. I do not think it is right for people in a dispute to go to ArbCom unless both parties agree; ArbCom should be a recourse of last resort when other attempts at dispute settlement have failed. But surely the first attempt should be informal and between two people. Why do we need some authority to step in? We are adults and ought to be supported when we try to resolve disputes among ourselves, without seeking any authority. With this in mind, it seems to me that ArbCom wishes to punish SV NOT for her behavior towards Lar, but rather because she ignored ArbCom. This is the thought that really disturbs me. Wikipedia is an open society. We created ArbCom to deal with certain kinds of violations of personal behavior policies on talk pages of articles, and articles. Slim Virgin is not accused of violating a personal behavior policy relating to the editing of an article. ArbCom's jurisdiction here is not clear cut in my mind and I do not see what basis it has especially when Wikipedia is a voluntary association for forcing Slim Virgin to take her case to ArbCom. We all created ArbCom with mixed feelings. I know that ll of the members of the ArbCom work very hard: I do not envy you; I admire the work you do and appreciate it. But we also know that however necessary ArbCom is, it was very risky creating an authority and the implied hierarchy in what should be an open society, an anarchic community. So I admire and appreciate the work you do in mediating disputes involving the violation of personal behavior policies in the course of editing or discussing articles. But I am very wary about attempts to expand ArbCom's power over editors. I think it is a vey dangerous precedent for ArbCom to seek to punish SV because she chose not to involve ArbCom in her dispute. So this is the thought that disturbs me. it is premised on the five facts i list above. I would LOVE it if someone told me I am wrong, that I am mistaken in one of the facts, or am ignorant of some of the circumstances. Please, someone tell me this is the case.

There is another contradiction that disturbs me. SV is faulted for making incomplete and unsupported statements on the list-serve, AND is faulted for "going public." My first question would be: is it possible tht the stuff SlimVirgin did not disclose on the list-serve is precisely stuff she felt had to remain confidential? Is it possible she reproted things to Jimbo that she did not report on the list Serve precisely to protect people's privacy? Or perhaps she told no one? I just do not see how SV can be told that she should not have gone public AND be faulted for not having revealed all in public. This is a double-bind, it is an impossible demand and unfair.

But even if someone can explain to me that I am wrong about ArbCom, as I hope someone can, I still do not think ArbCom has a right to criticize SV for anything she said at the listserve. i say this for two reasons. First, I was not aware ArbCom had any jurisdiction over the listserve. i thought it was only the moderator who could and should police inapporpriate use of the listserve. Second, as I said, I think now more than ever we should be fighting to make Wikipedia as transparent as possible. let people at the listserve criticize SV, and let SV criticize others. That's the "market-place of ideas" where things whould play out in the open.

It really does disturb me that ArbCom has in effect declared that Lar abused his position of power, yet exhonorates him and castigates SV. Slrubenstein | Talk 05:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't all off-wiki. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 07:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"ArbCom has in effect declared that Lar abused his position of power" - where? --NE2 07:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"Informally, the Committee notes that a technical breach of the privacy policy may have occurred in this case" - what else could this possibly refer to? Specifically? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Was Lar the only checkuser involved in all this? If not (presumably Mackensen is one, at least?), you're making a pretty big assumption that you know all the facts. --NE2 21:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, from what I have read the only one who was accused of a breach of confidentiality was Lar. I must have missed the accusation that Mackensen breached the privacy policy. Would you mind telling me where it is? I would then stand corrected. (Of course, if you are saying ArbCom has ruled that Mackensen violated Wikipedia's privacy policy, that is indeed a big charge! What sanction is ArbCom going to impose on Mackensen? This is of course if your suggestion that Mackensen violated policy is correct. I just haven't seen any accusations except against Lar; Thatcher brought this charge agint Lar so I assumed that ArbCom is making rulings concerning the accusation against lar, I didn't think this was such a big leap. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You're asking me to prove a negative. It is probable that nobody except ArbCom knows all the facts they have, which may include accusations of privacy violations. (By the way, you're making another big leap - from "may have occurred" to "in effect declared".) Unless more comes out, any attempt to tie this to Lar is simply poisoning the well. --NE2 22:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's leave it at this (I am acknowledging your points): I am uncomfortble with ArbCom - the principal authority in an otherwise quasi-anarchic environment - making vague hypothetical rulings. They should stick to findings of fact and whatever actions they deem appropriate given those facts. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm loath in involve myself here, but Slrubenstein, you're effectively taking the position that a person may repeatedly allege improper use of checkuser without actually taking that up with the only bodies which may police such activity. I find this absurd. Checkuser abuse is a serious matter which deserves investigation, an investigation SlimVirgin appeared unwilling to initiate. I don't find it acceptable in the least for an accusation of checkuser abuse to hang in the air with no investigation or resolution. SlimVirgin, according to these findings, submitted no evidence. If she submitted no evidence, what was she basing her accusations on? Evidence so secret and private that no one may actually see it? If so, why did SlimVirgin go public at all, when she must have known that she could not support her allegations in those forums? Why didn't she make a private complaint to the Arbitration Committee, which could have actually reviewed same and taken action? Why didn't she make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman Commission, which has a mandate to investigate breaches of the privacy policy? Lobbying individual members doesn't count--at no time were any official mechanisms engaged until Thatcher brought the case. Mackensen (talk) 12:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher can do what Thatcher wants. But Slim Virgin did not. Am I saying anyone can make accusations as much as they want? Of course!!! It is a free country! And Lar and anyone else is fre to ignore anything Slim Virgin says. That is life, right? Freedom of speech? The point is this: ArbCom does not moderate the List Serve. If anyone things Slim Virgin acted inappropriately on the List Serve, they should go to the List Serve moderater who can either say "free speech - yes!" or "inappropriate behavior - no!" But ArbCom has no authority over what anyone thinks or says off Wikipedia. ArbCom mediates disputes on article pages and talk pages. I didn't catch any evidence of Slim Virgin involved in a dispute on an article or article talk page. So what does this case have to do with Slim Virgin? Why didn't she make a complaint to ArbCom? You will have to ask her. But since she did not make a complaint to ArbCom, ArbCom has nothing to do with this. But I repeat what i wrote before: if I have missed the evidence tht was presented that Slim Virgin violated a Wikipedia policy here at Wikipedia i.e. at an article or talk page, by all means, please correct my oversight and point me to the evidence. Otherwise, ArbCom has no jurisdiction over Slim Virgin's behaviors. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, it's a free country. SlimVirgin can make whatever accusations she wants. However, the committee has an obligation, imposed upon it by the Foundation, to investigate misuse of checkuser. It was entirely appropriate for members of the checkuser community to demand such an investigation to clear the air. Why SlimVirgin would make such accusations with no intention of pursuing them is quite beyond me. Given that SlimVirgin made the accusations, it was necessary and proper that the committee asked her to submit evidence. Why SlimVirgin did not is again, quite beyond me. I can only assume that the committee has reached the conclusion that SlimVirgin had no evidence and made baseless accusations. It does not seem to me that freedom of speech grants one leave to make repeated accusations in this manner, the effect of which is to sully the reputation of another. Certainly no one should be surprised when those slandered take offense. The committee may not have jurisdiction of SlimVirgin's behavior (I find this a debatable point, given that she made many statements on-wiki), but it certainly has jurisdiction over checkuser, and it is well within its remit to state whether abuse has occured, or not, or whether the accusations made are with or without foundation. I see no issue here. Mackensen (talk) 23:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

And let me again ask my question - In the emails linked above, SlimVirgin and Lar directly contradict each other, on matters involving Lar's wife and a third editor. Has this third editor submitted evidence? If so, does his evidence support Lar's account of events, or SlimVirgin's? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom has no jurisdiction over e-mails or the list-serve. Slim Virgin never brought a complaint to ArbCom. Thatcher brought a complaint to ArbCom concerning Lar. If ArbCom has no jurisdiction over abuse of checkuser, it should simply have rejected the case. If ArbCom has jurisdiction over abuse of checkuser, it was right to accept the case. And it needs ot make a decision based on evience presented. If evidence was presented through direct contact ith the ArbCom or Jimbo by a third party, and not presented at the ArbCom site, for reasons of privacy, it is for ArbCom to weigh that evidence. I do think it is a valid question to ask, has anyone presented ArbCom with additional evidence. But this does not mean that ArbCom can criticize anyone for not presenting evidence. I did not present evidence - is ArbCom going to sanction me? Be tht s it may, what is clear is that having accepted the case and thus jurisdiction over checkuser abuse, all it can say is that there is or is not evidence of a violation of privacy/confidentility by Lar, and if there was, impose a sanction aginst lar.

But since Slim Virgin did not present any complaint to ArbCom, I do not see why she was named as a party or why ArbCom is making any decisions concerning her. She chose not to file a complaint aginst Lar at ArbCom. ArbCom has no authority to compell anyone to file a complaint at ArbCom. So Slim Virgin is simply uninvolved.

If someone has a conflict with Slim Virgin, and wants to file a complaint against Slim Virgin, they can. But let me remind everyone that ArbCom is the last resort for dispute resolution. Before ArbCom, one must follow the other steps in dispute resolution. These are: (1) discuss the matter on the talk page, (2) truce, (3), turn to others: editor assistance, wikiproject, policy talk page, noticeboard, RFC, informal mediation, formal mediation, survey. If someone is in a dispute with Slim Virgin, they should have gone through these steps prior to ArbCom. Starting with discussing it on the talk page ... oh wait, there is no talk page for the list-serve. That is because our dispute-recolution process is for conflicts concerning articles. Is anyone in a conflict ith Slim Virgin over an article? If so, follow all the correct steps for dispute resolution, and remember, ArbCom is the remedy of last resort. But it is also the remedy of last resort for conflict concerning personal behavior at articles and article tk pages. Not the list-serve, not e-mails. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Slrubenstein can attempt to spin this however he wants. To a disinterested observer (like me), who has no axe to grind with any party, the conclusions are pretty transparent and pretty damning. They spin themselves. Now, let's move on, wiser.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 12:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC) Yeah, not helpful.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to say "spin" unless you can show that Slrubenstein is deliberately mischaracterizing the case instead of simply voicing his perspective. I have not known Slrubenstein to be less than forthright in his views, so I'd urge a less accusatory tone in the comment above.

That said, my feelings on Slrubenstein's questions above are essentially those that Mackensen has written above. SV was willing to make public accusations that could not be refuted publicly; when the matter was brought to a body capable of investigating the accusations, she did not make an effort to help resolve the investigation by providing evidence for her allegations. The mailing list postings fall under Arbcom jurisdiction because they materially affected the community's trust in Lar as a checkuser, and without such jurisdiction, no checkuser accused on the mailing list of abuse would be able to be exonerated and the community could never be certain that the abuse did not occur. alanyst ^/talk/ 15:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Alanyst, for acknowledging tht i am acting in good faith. Based on your comment it is clear to me that the crucial issue is: does ArbCom have jurisdiction over behavior on the list-serve. It is my impression that it does not. I acknowledge I may well be wrong. Alanyst thinks it does and I take his views seriously. That said, this cannot be a matte of opinion. it must be a matter of policy. In every known dispute-resolution arena or process or mechanism, jurisdiction must be clearly states. in some places, jurisdiction depends on th mutual consent of parties (for example voluntary arbitration). In other cases jurisdiction is estalished by the appropriate authority - stte courts have jurisdiction ove x, federal courts have jurisdiction over y. The question is, who has jurisdiction over the list-serve? I believe that there must be a formal statement by the moderator of the list-serve informing members that in joining the list-serve they fall under ArbCom jurisdiction, and there must b a policy at Wikipedi that states that ArbCom has jurisdiction over the list-serve. this seems to me to be eminently reasonabl: the list-serve has its policies, and ArbCom has its policies. These policies must exist in writing, somewhere. If Alanyst is correct it should not be hard to find the relevant list-seve policy and relevnt ArbCom policy. I now admit that I am holding to a belief that may be wrong. I know of no such policies, for the list-serve and for the ArbCom. If i am mistken I would be grateful to be corrected. Can someone please direct me to the list-serve policy that relates to the ArbCom, and to the ArbCom policy that relates to the listserve? I looked and couldn't find them, but I admit I have missed things in the past. So I really would appreciate someone giving me the links to the policies tht make these declarations of jurisdiction. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

My main response is above. SlimVirgin made numerous statements on-wiki which most assuredly fall within the committee's jurisdiction. The function of checkuser, of course, lies entirely within its jurisdiction regardless of venue. Mackensen (talk) 23:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict with Mackensen.) I regard the following as true statements:

• Arbcom does not have jurisdiction over disputes/behavior that occur exclusively on the mailing list.
• Arbcom does have jurisdiction over disputes about use of checkuser privileges, as the only body capable of investigating and adjudicating the dispute without violating the privacy policy.
• SlimVirgin did not make her allegations only on the mailing list, but on-wiki as well, as Tombomp has pointed out above.
• Arbcom did not assert any authority over the mailing list, but simply found as a fact that SlimVirgin's use of that forum for her allegations was "unhelpful".

If Arbcom could not issue a finding of fact about anything off-wiki because it lacks jurisdiction, then it could not find, hypothetically, that an editor had been harassed off-wiki, had posted another editor's private information on a critical site, or any other similar statement that might shed light on mitigating or aggravating factors. I think that would be an absurd conclusion, so I disagree with the premise that Arbcom needs to have some sort of jurisdiction spelled out in policy for it to have proposed what we've seen so far. alanyst ^/talk/ 23:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Alanyst and Tombomp, all I can ask in direct response to your point is to bear in mind the context in whcih Slim Virgin made that statement: a heated discussion in which Lar was laready questioning Slim Virgin's good faith. As Grace Note pointed out in that very discussion, "My view, Lar, is that if you want to put forward ideas on how to fix Wikipedia, you could easily do so on a site that doesn't have as one of its main purposes "outing" and harassing editors. It's my belief that you implicitly endorse that behaviour by taking part in that forum and should cease to do so."

The context is (1) the discussion of Wikipedia Review's outing and harassing of some wikipedia editors, to the point of physical stalking that required police action; (2) the attempts by Slim Virgin and others to address this with the "badsites" proposal, and (3) Lar's scoffing at Slim Virgin and others for proposing the "badsites policy."

Since there is a connection between this case and the debates surrounding bdsites, i cannot help but to recall how the discussion of Badsites played out.

Frankly I am profoundly concerned bout a double-standard at Wikipedia. This came up at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Attack sites/Workshop. At that time, several editors, mostly women, had been harassed and stalked, in person and at other websites, because their private identities had been revealed. At that time the general attitude of other Wikipedians, mostly men, was to pooh-pooh them. When women complained of being stalked, they were whiney complainers. Now we have Lar complaining about having been criticized. I do not know if this is about gender, but once again the oman who complains ends up being attacked, and the man who may have acted inappropriately is defended almost hysterically so. Or maybe this is about power: when a regular editor's privacy is violated that's life, but when a member of ArbCom or someone with ChechUser authority is challenged, watch out!

All I can say is this: during the attack sites discussion I was a double-standard, and I am seeing it here.

I hope I am wrong. Let's see. It depends on how seriously ArbCom takes Wikitutmus's evidence, and how they respond to the evidence that Slim Virgin was being truthful and Lar was at least being disingenuous about an abuse of power.

I seriously hope Alanyst and Mackensen and others will reconsider their views in like of Wikitumnus's revelation. It is disturbing that ArbCom seens to have ignored his evidence. And Arbcom has to consider his evidence which supports Slim Virgen and contradicts Lar.Slrubenstein | Talk 14:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• I feel no need to reconsider my views since I've been aware of Wikitumnus' "revelation" almost from the beginning of the affair. I'm not comfortable discussing the matter publicly; it should never have been made public in the first place. I do not accept the relevance of the gender/power narrative to this debate; I allow that being both male and a holder of authority on this project may create a certain insensitivity to this issue. The question of whether the Crum375/WT check should have been performed is independent of these considerations; Lar did not know who WT was when he performed the check--Lar did not know that WT was female. For that matter, I have no idea what Crum375's gender is and I frankly don't care (which also marks me out as male, I know). That the check led Lar into two editors whose gender is female isn't surprising; there's about even odds on that score. That one of those editors has been the victim of a particularly pernicious stalker is unfortunate but, forgive me, somewhat beside the point. No one knew that going in. Wikipedia has attempted to deal with the question of stalking and harassment as best it can, but its record of protecting its users, both male and female, who have been targets of external harassment is poor. There can be no easy answers here. There are no doubt editors on this site who dismiss stalking complaints as "whining," but that description doesn't match what I see on a daily basis within the arbitration and checkuser communities, where it is a constant topic of discussion and concern. Mackensen (talk) 15:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Mackensen: Well, perhaps i should have just directed my comment at ArbCom. Just to clarify: first, when I brought up gender, I was refering to Slim Virgin whose outing I was aware of - I had no idea of Wikitutmus's gender but maybe I missed it in the posting above. Second, the post above seems like relevant evidence to the ArbCom decision and I did not see any consideration of it in the ArbCom decision. My third point is a question for you: when you say this should never have been made public, do you mean the ArbCom case itself? I am not trying to stir up trouble, we have had enough of that, but you obviously disagree with someone and I want to be clear whether it is me, ArbCom, or Thatcher, or Slim Virgin, or Lar, or someone else, or everyone. Mackensen, I want to be clear that my only concern here is ArbCom's handling of this situation. I never meant to call attention to you, and mentioned you only because i was quoting an ArbCom statement that refered directly to you, and then NE2 brought you up ... and then you were among the few to respond to my comment (which by the way I appreciated ... but my entire comments was directed to ArbCom). Please believe me my concern was with ArbCom's handling of the matter based on what I have read here, not you. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

My position is that it should never have been made public because much of the evidence, given its nature, should never be published--checkuser data, private correspondence, etc. I can tell you that much of what the committee considered has not been made public. I know that the committee is aware of WT's allegations, among other data. We can therefore take as a given that the decision being made here reflects that knowledge. The community doesn't know this, of course, which is what I find frustrating in the extreme. My own hands are tied--my position as a checkuser prevents me from disclosing certain facts which might otherwise bring the case better into focus. Full disclosure would be of no conceivable benefit to any of the principal parties. Mackensen (talk) 18:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

"We can therefore take as a given that the decision being made here reflects that knowledge." Mackensen, that seems not to be the case. The arbs investigated SlimVirgin and Lar, ignoring the third editor's evidence. If they had looked at the evidence before it was posted here, it would have been easy enough for an arbitrator to answer my question: "Has this third editor submitted evidence? If so, does his evidence support Lar's account of events, or SlimVirgins?" Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That no arbitrator has answered you is a separate issue which has no bearing on the material fact of the situation. Mackensen (talk) 18:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That fact being, we now know, that another editor had given evidence to the arbs, and that evidence supported what SlimVirgin said. Yet a finding says "...SlimVirgin has been quick to make statements potentially damaging to other editors, but tardy in matters of clarification, mediation, and resolution of the points that she has raised." No mention that what SlimVirgin said about Lar was supported by the evidence of a third party. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not following the distinction that you're trying to make. What SlimVirgin said about Lar is what the third party told SlimVirgin, and this does not constitute the totality of the issue. Moreover, these claims predated the opening of the case. I believe what the arbs are saying is that for a period of two months SlimVirgin did not submit any evidence to the committee for consideration, despite being asked to do so several times. Again, I cannot speak for the arbs on this matter. I also cannot speak to their silence on this other matter which your asking about; possibilities include additional exculpatory evidence which has not been made public, or perhaps a determination that the claims made are not germane to the case in question. Mackensen (talk) 23:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There are third parties involved? Doesn't this change things? Macknsen, how could SlimVirgin present evidence that comes from third parties? It has to be up to those third parties you refer to to provide evidence or not, as they choose. Perhaps ArbCom needs to undertake its own investigation (there should be some body at Wikipedia empowered to investigate abuses of power by those who do not operate with transparency), but it cannot ask SlimVirgin to act as its investigator on its behalf ... even if she knows about something, isn't it between ArbCom and these third parties you mention? Slrubenstein | Talk 00:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, you might find it of value to review the original Request for Arbitration (and perhaps the associated talk page. The discussion on those pages deals with questions that are quite similar to yours. Jd2718 (talk) 00:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Jd2718. I had, before commenting here. I have just reread them at your suggestion. I see Lar referring to a third party, but the reference is vague and I think he is referring to Slim Virgin. Mackensen is referring to third parties who have been contact with Slim Virgin. If that is the case, the question is, have these third parties given evidence to ArbCom. My point is just that I wouldn't ask Slim Virgin (or anyone else) to identify a third party - if we keep using the term "third party" I guess it means the third party is anonymous. My point is, does ArbCom expect Slim Virgin to identify this third party? Mackensen's reference to third parties raises all sorts of questions unaddressed by ArbCom. I would expect one of three statements on the "proposed decision" page: either (1) ArbCom identified anonymous third parties who confirmed the accusations, (2) Arbcom identified anonymous third partices who did not confirm the accusations, or (3) ArbCom could not identify or contact anonymous third parties and therefore can neither confirm nor reject the accusations (these kinds of statements maintain the anonymity). Can ArbCom make one of these three statements? In any event, the issue now according to Mackensen, if I read him right, is that this case should be called "Third parties-Lar" not "Slim Virgin-lar". Slrubenstein | Talk 01:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Alanyst: Alanyst made two points: "Arbcom does have jurisdiction over disputes about use of checkuser privileges, as the only body capable of investigating and adjudicating the dispute without violating the privacy policy. SlimVirgin did not make her allegations only on the mailing list, but on-wiki as well, as Tombomp has pointed out above." I appreciate your correcting me about these fact, A. Okay, but Alanyst, Arb-Com is the instrument of dispute-resolution of last resort. So there is a dispute between Alim Virgin and Lar. As i said, in reference to Wikipedia ArbCom policy, one of the two parties should have requested informal medition, and then formal meditation, before taking it to ArbCom. I see two problems here: first, I do not see that other forms of dispute resolution between lar and Slim Virgin were exhuasted before it was taken to ArbCom. So ArbCom should have rejected this as it was premature. Second, neither Slim Virgin nor Lar filed the complaint at ArbCom! Thatcher did. Slim Virgin is not involved in a complaint aginst Thatcher. Again, I do not see how ArbCom has jurisdiction over Slim Virgin's behavior. You will have to show me the policy that covers this, because the policies I know make it clear that ArbCom arbitrates disputes between two or more parties when the parties in dispute take the dispute to ArbCom, and after they have exhuasted other means of dispute resolution. I do not see how these two conditions have both been met. So I do not understand by what right ArbCom is making findings and judements about Slim Virgin. (please note my 20:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC) embedded response to Tom Harrison, above)

Just in case people have the wrong impression, I am not here to defend Slim Virgin. I have not investigated all of her actions, and do not know whether I agree with them. I am here because when we discussed creating ArbCom there was much concern about creating a hierarchy at Wikipedia and granting a select group of people, rather than the open dynamic of the community as a whole, special power. Almost all of us agreed it was necessary, and that ArbCom's powers had to be clearly defined. Over the past several years I have seen some editors use a variety of means to suggest that there is a hierarchy at Wikipedia, and concentrations of power. I certinly do not blame ArbCom for that!!! But in this environment I do care about the way ArbCom exercises its powers. As I have said, I know ArbCom fills a necessary and very important function at Wikipedia, and ArbCom members work hard, and I genuineloy admire them and am grateful for that. nevertheless, all Wikipedians have to be vigilent about any extension of power. That is why I am looking for the ArbCom policy that explains their jurisdiction over Slim Virgin in this case ... my concern is not Slim Virgin, it is ArbCom jurisdiction. Thatcher did not complain about Slim Virgin, Thatcher did no say he was in a conflict with Slim Virgin. Where does it say that ArbCom can make rulings about people who have not brought their dispute to ArbCom? Where does it say that ArbCom should hae authority in the first resort, rather than last? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Harassment

Earlier in this thread Mackensen asserts: Wikipedia has attempted to deal with the question of stalking and harassment as best it can, but its record of protecting its users, both male and female, who have been targets of external harassment is poor. Half of that assertion is true: its record of protecting editors from external harassment is indeed poor. I should know; when I brought a problem of that nature to ArbCom's attention last year its handling was so inappropriate that it was substantially more stressful than the harassment itself. ArbCom is a committee of encyclopedia editors, fourteen male and one female, who have between them--to the best of my knowledge--no expertise in dealing with harassment. And yet, just a few months after mishandling my complaint, they passed the following ruling:

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jim62sch#Grave_real-world_harassment

Any incident of a user's engaging in grave acts of real-world harassment of another editor, such as communicating with an editor's employer in retaliation for his or her editing on Wikipedia, should be reported to the Arbitration Committee immediately.

During the ensuing months the Arbitration Committee has taken no steps at all to equip themselves for cases of grave real-world harassment, nor have I seen them respond adequately in the subsequent examples to which I was privy. Repeatedly I have proposed that they either undergo formal harassment awareness training or engage the consulting services of a credentialed professional in the field. They have done neither, nor have they replied to the proposal. It cannot possibly be alleged that either they or this website have done everything feasible to deal with the problem. For my own part, the next time I encountered harassment I bypassed site processes entirely and opened an investigation with the FBI, which resolved the problem with competent professionalism. Without comment on other aspect of this case, I think I may safely stand on the proper side of WP:NLT by stating this much and advising others to do the same. Durova^Charge! 03:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Nor have they done everything possible feasible (as changed by Durova) to eliminate poverty. I fail to see your point. --NE2 03:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The Committee never went out of its way to encourage editors to come to them with financial problems. With regard to harassment they have done so in a formal ruling, as quoted above, yet they have failed to undertake elementary measures to follow up on that weighty commitment. Durova^Charge! 04:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

They didn't encourage editors to come to them with harassment problems either. They encouraged people to report it to them, since we don't want people like that editing here. If the ArbCom's actions stop the harrassment, awesome, but presumably the main purpose of reporting is to get the harrassers out of here. --NE2 04:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Presumably that is the main purpose; would that the Committee's actions bore out that commonsense principle! Durova^Charge! 04:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Correction of fact. As stated: "Repeatedly I have proposed that they either undergo formal harassment awareness training or engage the consulting services of a credentialed professional in the field. They have done neither, nor have they replied to the proposal." In fact replies were given by Paul August, Newyorkbrad, FloNight, James F, and myself, as well as ex-arb Mackensen, as recently as September. (link) FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 09:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this gets at the heart of the issue, and I appreciate Durova's courage in bringing it up. I followed the link FT2 provided and found it very illuminating. I think there are three fundamental issues involved when we discuss harassment. I am glad that Durova has brought this up because I do not think that the charges Slim Virgin level against Lar could ever be effectively handled (whether the result is to find against Slim Virgin or against Lar) without confronting these issues:

1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and a community. I have seen several people deny that there is a Wikipedia community. I find this funny, bewcause when people try to turn Wikipedia into an interactive on-line role-playing gaime, with people trying to find one another's secret pages, and awarding themselves "service awards," no one says: hey, this is not a community. Frankly, if this is what people meant when they say Wikipedia is a community (that there is this game to earn prestige points or attain titles like tutnut or whatever, and that people rush to IRC whenever they have gossip to share) I too would scoff and say "We are an encyclopedia, not a community!" So I really do understand and sympathise with people who say "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a community." But the fact remains, we are an encyclopedia and an community. In order to write the encyclopedia, we create a community, and the community exists in order the write the community, but there is NO denying we are a community. The explanation of what Wikipedia is begins by saying it is an encyclopedia; the second paragraph explains it is written through a collaborative process. The page explaining our policies refers explicitly to "community pages" and to the "Wikipedia community." And we all know of the importance of community bans. This is not some semantics game, and some editor going through all these pages and deleting the word"community" will not change the fact that we are a community. Because Wikipedia is written through a collaborative process that encourages consensus-based editing, we are a community. ArbCom itself is evidence of this, since it does not rule on conflicts over content. If Wikipedia were just an encyclopedia, either ArbCom would only rule on matters of content, or it would not exist. But ArbCom exists because we really are a community. And why do we need ArbCom? Because for a community to work people should not abuse one another. On the contrary, we should be working to build and sustain a positive work environment. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit - and Jimbo's vision implies that everyone should be able to edit it. This is important because we believe that it is not only the PhDs who work for EB who can contribute to an encyclopedia; we believe that a diverse group of people with different backgrounds, experiences, and interests can actually build a better encyclopedia. But this means creating an environment where a divers group of people with different experiences and interests are able to work together. We do this in part through certain policies like AGF and CIV, and even NPOV which provides a framework for people with opposing views to collaborate on an article (I have seen this happen at the Jesus article and believe it or not even the Sarah Palin article). But because Wikipedia for various reasons has traditionally attracted a larger percentage of male editors, there is often a good deal of bullying against female editors. I am not saying that all male editors are bullies, and I am not saying all female editors are angels. I am stating the simple fact that sexual harassment sometimes happens, and we would be a better community meaning a community that would write a better encyclopedia if this did not happen.
2. Wikipedia is written by real human beings. What I mean is that wikipedians have lives outside of Wikipedia. We celebrate that - I have never been to a Wikipedia reunion but I have seen the announcements and the photos posted on Wikipedia in which we have celebrated the Wikipedia community through get-togethers of real people in different cities. But this also means that there is a serious potential for abuse when Wikipedians take conflicts off of talk pages and into the real world. And this has profound implications ofr any discussion of harassment because some wikipedians have harassed other wikipedians off-line, and other people who have drifted in and out of the Wikipedia community have harassed and stalked wikipedians off-line. NE2 makes the idiotic and asinine comment, "Nor have they done everything feasible to eliminate poverty." I do not know if NE2 just doesn't understand simple points, or is deliberately trying to be offensive, but the difference is obvious: No one so far has ever demonstrated that one wikipedia editor, because of activities on wikipedia, singled out another wikipedia editor, and in the real world impoverished that person. But there are at least a few demonstrated cases where a wikipedia editor, because of activities on wikipedia, singled out another wikipedia editor, and in the real world harassed her. NE2, we are not talking about ending poverty, or ending war. We are not even talking about ending sexual harassment. We are talking about ending the harassment, sexual or otherwise, including criminal stalking, of one Wikipedia editor by another. Get the difference? Now, there is no question in my mind that we need an open decision about how best to handle these kinds of problems. I do have questions about how to handle such problems and imagine that among us we have a wide range of views as to what would be necessary, appropriate, or effective. But surely in such a discussion we should be guided by the same principles that we claim should guide other discussions, like AGF. NE2, if you cannot assume that Durova wrote in good faith, do not bitch when you realize people have started to question whether your comments are made in good faith. Wikipedia must have some response to the problem of the harassment of Wikipedia editors on- and off-line. I have no idea what would be an appropriate response to off-line harassment. perhaps our responsibility (legally and practically and ethically) actually is minimal. Let's discuss it! But even if our responsibility is minimal, I would propose that at least it extends to protecting the real-life identity of Wikipedians. I do not think Wikipedia owes any editor a 24-hour security guard. I am not sure Wikipedia owes an editor legal services. But I do think we owe editors their privacy, this is the minimal effective protection we really can offer. And this is why checkuser abuse (by which I mean misusing a tool which is otherwise often very necessary) is so serious. This is also why Wikipedia should have a policy that, unless there is probably cause to think someone is using multiple accounts to violate Wikipedia policies no one e.g. ArbCom should demand that a Wikipedian reveal their personal identity. I consider these minimal steps. I do think we need a more general discussion on the problem though.
3. ArbCom has to make up its mind. ArbCom has institutionalized power over editors which is a serious matter and their power puts a burden on them to be careful about their choices of how and when to act, or not to act. Once they have made a choice, they should stick to it ... isn't anything else hypocracy? Durova is right: ArbCom made this ruling, "Any incident of a user's engaging in grave acts of real-world harassment of another editor, such as communicating with an editor's employer in retaliation for his or her editing on Wikipedia, should be reported to the Arbitration Committee immediately." ArbCom did not HAVE to make this ruling, but it did make this ruling. Having made this ruling, it is a very good idea for members of ArbCom to be trained in dealing with victims of real-world harassment. In fact, not to be so trained is irresponsible. Troikoalago responded to Durova's proposal with this: "And if reported, the committee should consider banning the user involved from this website, because their real-world activity is likely to mean that there presence on this website is not conducive to the project's goals. Once that is done, their responsibility ends as a committee." The problem is, ArbCom does not automatically ban the person accused of harassment, and nor should it (as this present case indicates): it has an investigation. And in the course of the investigation it questions the person who is bringing the charges - who may be a victim of harassment - and it seeks out further testimony, including from others who may be victims of harassment. THIS is the reason ArbCom members need the training. So I really do not understand the link FT2 provided where he and others declared that they would not seek training, and in fact denigrated the idea. ArbCom is acting hypocritically and irresponsibly, gravely irresponsibly, when it claims to have any, even minimal, jurisdiction over real world harrassment and yet refuses to be trained in how to handle people who have been victims of harassment. If you do not want the training, resign from ArbCom. Or, ArbCom can reverse itself and say that ArbCom has no interest in harassment. But please, be straight with us! Slrubenstein | Talk 14:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Relevant statement

It might get lost in the other edits to this page, so I thought I'd start a new section to point out this statement, which seems to me to need some sort of co-ordinated response from the Committee. Carcharoth (talk) 04:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikitumnus' statement is incorrect on several points.

• To the contrary, an editor is hardly entitled to use a sockpuppet to remove a sockpuppet notice from their own user page. This would plainly violate the policy on multiple accounts, and would be an utterly misguided approach. Anyone doing this should also at least expect to be checkusered.
• Whether or not a particular check is justified does not only relate to the actions of that account. Moreover, the assumption that Lar checked any other account based purely on Wikitumnus' actions is not supported.
• This whole discussion of Wikitumnus' identity and Lar's wife is certainly valid, just as long as one considers that it has nothing to do with SlimVirgin, the public accusations that she made,[1][2] or any claims that Lar has targeted someone he "dislikes." Wikitumnus' claim, raised first in public by Jayjg, does not replace or negate SlimVirgin's (specifically, knowledge of checkuser abuse, and that Lar had revealed himself as Wikipedia Review's checkuser), attempts to have it do so notwithstanding.
• If SV did not want ArbCom to hear this case, she could easily have said so. Instead, she argued that she was not given time to submit evidence for her accusations. So far as I am aware no one has contested the case until now, when no evidence came, and when findings are proposed.

Finally two additional points. First, I have personally found, somewhat recently, that I have been checkusered at least four times, in no case having anything to do with any sort of policy violations or misbehavior on my part. In one instance, not only was I checkusered, but I was then blocked despite an obvious non-match, and had to submit my personal information in order to resolve the matter. Editing Wikipedia in contentious areas clearly means one can expect to be checkusered. Second, in my submission to ArbCom I specifically stated that "raising complaints about official actions should most likely not be punished even if done inappropriately," and in my view, some of ArbCom's judging statements here go slightly further than necessary if these refer only to her comments about Lar. On the other hand, the days of simply allowing any unsupported accusations amid Wikipedians, which has just been addressed in another case, should be over. Considering SV made the accusations, including on Wikipedia, clearly expected a response, asked for time to submit evidence, complained that she was not given time to submit evidence, and then failed to submit the evidence, I think some sort of acknowledgment is entirely appropriate. Mackan79 (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

A few comments from MONGO

I don't know what evidence has been presented to arbcom privately. I am not privy to this evidence, nor should I be. However, the details of the events involving Lar and his use of the checkuser tools on several editors is something I am aware of and question strongly. I want to comment that Lar and I have communicated in the not so distant past via email as well as publically on this website and I generally hold him in high regard, so this series of comments isn't designed to get revenge or anything of the sort...I simply want to get to the bottom of this mess. I would like to also state that Lar and I have very divergent views regarding the website Wikipedia Review...though I have not examined his postings there (and won't) he knows I have been very vocal about my distain for that website, but I also recognize that, as Lar has told me, his posts at Wikipedia Review are done to restore sanity there, not to help feed the oftentimes common themes present. So, speaking of themes, one that has persisted at Wikipedia Review for some time is the issue of SlimVirgin and Crum375 being sockpuppets...or, as I have also seen posted there, meatpuppets at the very least. This mythology has also been presented in previous arbcom cases, at least in discussion form on various talkpages.

I see others have posted that SlimVirgin has provided no evidence...or that her evidence is erroneous. On the mailing list she did post her comments on the matter after being asked to do so by David Gerard [3]. Subsequently, Lar claims that he shares some confidential information with his wife, apparently also a Wikipedia editor. [4] and that Wikitumnus and his wife know each other...well, they don't know each other. They have never once communicated with each other either on or off site apparently...and, apparently the arbitration committee has been informed of this in private, and now above by none other than Wikitumnus and now me as well. Now, here's the real crappy part of this whole saga...Lar was told by Wikitumnus about other identities...identities that not once performed a conflicting edit with each other...identities that were never once used for the purpose of vote stacking or malicious deception...these other identities were created SOLELY for the purpose of avoiding a real life scumbag...and arbcom knows who that scumbag is. I can certainly understand why Lar feels that his wife is completely trustworthy but unfortunately, Lar's wife has not been entrusted with checkuser tools and more importantly, Wikitumnus has no reason to trust Lar's wife. I have been informed that contrary to Lar's comments on the matter, Wikitumnus did not appreciate Lar sharing the actual usernames of Wikitumnus's previous accounts with his wife.

Now back to the Wikipedia Review theme of SlimVirgin and Crum being socks...so was the checkuser done on Crum because of this theme? Or was it because arbcom was curious itself...what purpose did it serve?...there was no reason (from my perspective) to do this checkuser except to satisfy some long standing desire to "know"...based on the same tired old theme perpetuated at Wikipedia Review. Furthermore, this has all the looks of a fishing trip...and that is a violation of the checkuser policy...unless Lar is justifying the checkuser on Crum as being based on some theme that the account is a malicious sock used to votestack or perform other malicious activities. Best case scenario, but odd that it came when it did, was that the checkuser was done to put an END to this old theme. If done merely out of curiosity, based on the theme, then that truly is a misuse of the checkuser tools....and those tools should be removed.

Instead, what I see now in this proposed decision is that the messenger, who perhaps didn't act discretely enough, is the one being admonished, and all we have regarding the defendent is a reminder to be careful, essentially. That is not satisfactory I am afraid.

Lastly, Lar's mailing list comment, "But see, SlimVirgin, the thing is... in the final analysis, it's my word against yours. My word is good. Yours... not so much. More and more people realise that, as you try this trick on more and more innocent victims, so this tactic of yours will work less and less well. Drop this. You come off the worse, and the more you dig into this, the deeper you dig your own hole."...[5] makes me think that Lar feels he is untouchable...and that is a problem. I certainly hope that Lar understands that what I am seeing here regarding his use of checkuser makes me feel very uncomfortable with him retaining this ability.--MONGO 05:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have refrained from commenting on this case publicly, as I was asked to do, but I think this goes too far. I think that the long term user behind the WikiTumnus account (who I shall refer to as WT for convenience, the identity of this user is not germane to the case) is drawing incorrect inferences and making unsupportable statements. Stripping away a lot of this, there are two basic allegations, that the check run was unwarranted, and that information was shared inappropriately. These are both false, and I have presented evidence to that effect.

First, Checkusers can and do have differences of opinion about requests, and about findings, which is why we often are asked to check each others work. I acknowledge that not every checkuser will find every request compelling enough to run a check, but this request was reviewed by multiple CUs, after the fact, and I was by no means the only CU who felt the request was justified. That's not really refutable. So calling it "fishing" is really not helpful at all. You can call it a difference of opinion, and that's it. Anything more is polemic and should be discouraged.

Second, WT and I had a long and cordial email correspondence. This correspondence included disclosure that I discussed WT's situation (but not particulars) with my wife. Evidence was given to that effect as well. There may not have been direct correspondence between my wife and WT, but there was information flow in both directions between them and each was aware that the other knew things, and the correspondence continued, and there was no indication that there was an issue. The prior context is that my wife did not understand why WT did not quit editing in the face of the serious and repeated harassment WT was receiving. When WT proposed a new ID (the WT one) I agreed that WT should disclose the new (WT) identity to as few people as possible, not including me, so I didn't know whose it was. When I got a valid request for a check, and I ran it, and I discovered that WT's WT identity was "blown" I was dismayed... you can fault me for telling my wife it was blown (but NOT the particulars, I don't share CU data with my wife, period) and asking what to do. She's my wife of 27 years... I value her counsel, and I can get it without giving particulars, and I did.

That's really all there is to this. Two false allegations. Certain people have repeatedly tried to spin this up into way more than it is. I don't know why. I did not ask that this case be brought, but when it was, and when the process was outlined, I replied promptly and completely. So did Mackenson. So did WT. SlimVirgin did not. For two months I have been waiting patiently for this case to be resolved. There has been talk about back channel notes, pressure being applied, and the like... but no sign of SlimVirgin actually substantiating any of the things she wildly accused ArbCom, the Ombudsmen, Mackenson, me, and gosh knows who else of. Now finally this case seems to be coming to resolution... and all of a sudden, lots of voices appear, repeating the same false allegations. I'm rather disappointed. This case is yet again being tried in the court of public opinion. Can we not do that please? ++Lar: t/c 02:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

A comment

I have stayed silent on the case, assessing the evidence carefully. This is a case where inferences and intention (in the sense of good or bad faith actions, good or bad judgement) are as relevant as other conduct. A wide range of claims have been circulated in the public arena. Some of those (by both "sides") may be accurate. A number of other claims may be better characterized as misperceptions, misrepresentations, partial truths, personal opinions, or a mix of these.

What can and should be said at this point is simple. This is a debate where the private and public debate have diverged significantly at some points. What is said in public does not always match what is actually supported by evidence, or suggested by thoughtful interpretation of evidence and behaviors.

It is also notably a dispute where both parties have been strongly requested to avoid public re-enactment or re-statement of their cases, due to the nature of the case. Bluntly without endorsing either side, one party has abided by this and has been for practical purposes self-restricted in comment, while others on the other "side" have felt free to comment when they see a need. Disputes, however high profile, are not resolved by recourse to a venue that by its nature can only have half the story - in this case the half that is likely favorable. Apologies for feeling the need to note this obvious fact; it would not be necessary had our request been adhered to.

This talk page is a valid venue for comments on the case. It is not "yet another venue for forum shopping, re-enactment, and pushing one or another side's view", to add to WikiEN-l, private email, and a number of other locations. The case has been brought to the Committee to discuss and consider. It has already done the rounds of the community at multiple venues, so posting yet more here, is just in effect, forum shopping. I would ask that this be reduced, since frankly, it's not going to be helpful.

Note: Nothing above should be taken as a view on the dispute itself, or on the appropriate decision in the case, nor does it affect any party's evidence as presented in private. It is a comment on the conduct of a few users during the case, for example, as evidenced on this specific page.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 01:06, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I am glad to see that someone has finally spoken out against the forum-shopping in section 2 of this talk page, "comments." I think most of today's discussion has been about how ArbCom appears to be handling this case, and am glad FT2 seems to welcome this. i hope other members of ArbCom find this discussion valuable. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean the forum shopping in section 5? --NE2 01:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey, all I know is that my comments have focused on ArbCom policy and ArbCom statements. That said, there is a diference between some people who are uninvolved in the case attacking one of the parties, and a person who testified to ArbCom publicizing their testimony because rbCom's proceedings are not transparent. Isn't the purpose of confidentialproceedings to protect the privacty of witnesses?: Why should anyone then try to stop it when a witniss is willin to waive privacy? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whose privacy in particular they're trying to protect (whether 'witnesses' or not) - it seems obvious that they're not going to be able to give a list of people and reasons :) However, it isn't hard to see why they would ask people avoid making public presentations of evidence that can't be satisfactorily responded to without violating the privacy of others. The whole point of Arbcom's involvement is surely that they can hear the totality of the evidence where others apparently can't. 87.254.68.49 (talk) 05:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, anonymous user, but one does not "respond" to evidence. One asks for evidence and then uses it in drawing findings of fact. What one can respond to are charges and counter-charges. This thread is about forum-shopping. If Thatcher, who brought the charges against Lar, used this page to argue against ArbCom's rulings, or if Lar used this page to argue against Arb-Com rulings, that would be forum shopping. For a witness to share his own experiences as matters of fact - not an argument but sharing personal experiences and making assertions of fact about one's own experiences, that is not forum shopping. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I’m afraid you’ve lost me there, person who posts under the username Slrubenstein. Clearly people can respond to evidence. Clearly people do respond to evidence. I’m not sure what it means to say that "one does not" do so. Regardless of whatever semantic point you were making concerning "respond", Thatcher didn’t "bring charges" against Lar. He asked that a public dispute between Slim Virgin and Lar be settled one way or the other : "If Lar's use of checkuser in this case fell within the reasonable use of the tool, he deserves a public answer to that effect from the committee, and SlimVirgin needs to back down. If the committee finds a problem with Lar's conduct, SlimVirgin and the community deserve to know about it." He wasn't making an acusation; he was seeking a resolution. 87.254.72.198 (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

more convenient sharing

I have looked around onwiki and mail:wikien-l archives, and I cant see how Wikitumnus knows the details of this email as described in this statement here. The checkuser-l list is private, so I am very curious how Wikitumnus came by that email. Does arbcom know what is going on? I hope they will remedy this too. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 19:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)