Talk:Bioresonance therapy

I redacted this from an IP contributor:-

"

However

There is no evidence supplied above that bioresonance therapy does not work, it seems the information has been supplied to undermine the therapy without any facts. Bioresonance is practiced around the globe by individual practictioners and doctors. If the therapy had no merit it would not be widely available. There may be some cases of unscrupulous practictioners however this true in every profession and not exclusive to this practice. The above information claims devices continue to be sold despite efforts by trading standards officers, however suppliers of the equipment are freely available on the internet, it is hardly any underground movement. The above comments should be removed.

Bioresonance Explained

All cells, organs, bones, muscles and tissue vibrate at their own rate or frequency and in complete harmony and make up the Body Energy Field (BEF). Therefore the whole body has a complex frequency make up which can change or become distorted when affected by illness or toxic substances.

Bioresonance makes use of a the body's own electro-magnetic signals, alters them and then feeds them back into the body as therapy to restore health or combat illness. Usually the signals are inverted so that peaks of electro-magnetic waves become troughs and vice-versa. Feeding this altered signal back into the body cancels out the pathological electronic information coming from viruses, bacteria, and chemical toxins. This causes the cells of the body to start pushing out and eliminating these disease-causing factors, and so the root causes of disease are removed from the body and healing can take place.

Bioresonance therapy can deal with the real, underlying causes of chronic and degenerative diseases. According to a scientist, Pschinger, the real cause of chronic disease is the accumulation of different kinds of toxins in the connective tissue, i.e. the space between the cells in the tissues of the body. Accumulated toxins block the cells' ability to receive oxygen, nutrients and eliminate metabolic wastes. The toxins eventually enter the cells and produce symptoms of chronic illness.

The human body generates long-wave magnetic fields itself, e.g. when our heart beats. The oscillation energy of such fields results in regeneration, circulation and defence against infections in our cells. Best known of these are the currents flowing in the heart. They can be recorded on an ECG and from the curve produced it is possible to ascertain a normal function or to recognise heart diseases. In the same way that the heart produces its own bioelectrical signature pattern so do the other organs and systems within the body (e.g. brain,muscles, respiratory system etc).Bioresonance is a biofeedback therapy which can target, stimulate and boost the various bioelectrical signature patterns produced by the body to restore health and combat illness.

" I think it is complete bollux, and certainly taking someone with an abnormal ECG (electrical, not magnetic) and throwing electricity at them in an effort to make their heart normal again is not a technique of any credibility, but someone may wish to pick at it piece by piece, identifiying and listing the logical fallacies and seeking citations for those things adduced as facts. Midgley 11:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the quoted text comes from the Bioresonance Therapy page at www.newwaysclinic.com. Tearlach 10:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

This article is unreadable and makes not a lot of sense.

Rewrite should include

   + objective description of the theory of Bio Resonance.
   + How it is applied (reiki, reflexology, electrical-based solutions, ...)
   + Benefits
   + Scepticism could be added. This is healthy when proof is difficult. However since Bioresonance is used by such agencies such a NASA there may be some grounds behind it (doesn't necessarily mean anything though).

swear words and unwarranted accusations do not help people make their own mind up as to whether the subject is believable or not

---

Hello ! The german article is far better in my humble opinion. i may translate it into "ugly" english. but a native english-speaking person must correct my spelling after my translating. BTW: the french article is also better than this english stub version. michael Redecke 11:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

i just translated it. please check for errors. Redecke 21:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

--> I have just reviewed it. Tried to add some impartiality to the document, too. (it is not for the writer to pass judgement)

--> I can't find the French page - can you point me to it?

sorry, was a mistake. there is no french page, but a dutch one. i was working for another german article and i confounded them. michael Redecke 13:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

g1970: Made some further improvement but in general agree with your modifications.

g1970: I contest that the link to quackwatch is incendiary and biased and just as much without identifiable proof but then so are the other links to external sites. (I'm new to working on content so I don't yet do things according to the rules). I think we're done for the moment, thanks for the help.

hello g1970 !

• lets take a look to this sentence: ...The device then emits alternating currents...(your version). my comment: this is possible. but where is the proof ? and i agree that it should be possible to measure easely such currents. (i studied electric engineering and human medicine), i left medicine however a long time ago, i am not a doctor anymore and i am working as the owner of a company producing measuring equipment. so its my job... but: where are the results of such a test you are talking about ? i havent seen any so far.

g1970 -> Agreed, I am not in Bioresonance field and I have not looked for this. However, if you mention electrodes, you know something will be receive, and a receiver is very easily transformed into a transmitter...

• other issue: quackwatch-link by barrett. the shown instruments on that page are in part bioresonance-decvices. so this page is clearly related to this article.

g1970 -> Linked (which is why I leave it now) but clearly inflamatory (ie not trying to demonstrate anything, but bringing personal judgement into the equation)

• other question: ...The concept commonly explained is that the cells' natural resonance (ie bio-resonance) modulates the signal when it travels through the human tissues, and the response is monitored.... here your commonly means: view of the manufacturer/user, not science or medicine.

g1970 -> agreed. Only people involved would be sensible to try and propose an explanation. I agree to not being one of them although I have had a Bioresonance scan and the reading, without the person knowing any of my background, was surprisingly personal (ie could not apply to anyone like common horoscopes) and pinpointed highlight. I had never met the practitioner before either. I am a skeptic at the best of times, too, but ready to give things a go to judge for myself. I have to admit I was surprised.

a cell's natural resonance is a completely unknown feature in biology or medicine, its travel also.

g1970 -> Cell's natural resonance. I'm not sure it is completely unknown, but not often measured. More info on magnetic resonance at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRI . g1970 -> Magnetic interference is a known phenomenon too. example here: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/26612 g1970 -> However, since I'm not an expert, I can of course confirm that bioresonance is supposed to work from this.

what do you mean ? travel of what ? what are your references ?

g1970 -> Travel refers to the signal. that's why it is refered to as current ;-). Physically speaking, electrical current refers to the short displacement of electrical charges, but this is transmitted over a long distance easily through a conductor, like the body. Magnetic current is directly linked to electrical current (I don't remember the equation though).

we may agree saying: in the view of bioresonance device manufacturer, cells are to considered as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however).

g1970 -> partly agree. 1. the resonating objects are not only the cells but the elements of the cells as well as the whole of a cell group etc... and 2. although I don't have the time to look for reference I'm sure cell resonance has been measured already (although since I can't back up my claim I'll shut up).

g1970 -> In addition, this sentence removes the indication that there is an interference caused to the signal by the resonance of the cell, which is, in magnetic or electrical terms, a subject demonstrated in many schools.

(btw i wrote my tesis about problems related circadian rhythms in man, so i known a bit about rhythms)

g1970 -> sounds interesting, and partly related?

Hypotheses of FA.Popp, George Lakhovsky hould not be the base for a wikipedia article. michael Redecke 15:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

g1970 -> I don't understand the hypothesis reference here (in fact it would be useful if there references in the document could be linked to an outside website, ideally, if possible.

g1970 -> Actually I'm wondering if we should add these for good measure: http://www.theqxci.com/faq.php#1 http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/xrroidsuit.html

==Membrane fluctuations in erythrocytes are linked to MgATP-dependent dynamic assembly of the membrane skeleton.

S Levin and R Korenstein study

this study is interesting, but has nothing to do with bioresonance. The word bioresonance can not be found in that text, and this is also the case for the word electric. The authors are not describing any electric or resonance phenomenon at all. Redecke 00:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Partially correct. However the study clearly mentions " the observation of low-frequency fluctuations of the cell membrane in erythrocytes and in several nucleated cells '(white blood cell)' suggest that this phenomenon may be a general property of the living cell". The term frequency is evident. The article , as it stands, states " cells are to considered as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however) ". What the researchers have observed is that cells membrane fluctuate at a low-frequency. The word fluctuation means a motion like that of waves, recurrent and often more or less cyclic alteration, that implies a frequency and energy. The study clearly shows that these fluctuations have a pattern and occur at a low-frequency so it does provide some evidenciary support for what manufacturers are saying. To rule out the study because it does not include the word electric or bioresonance is being too selective and certainly showing a POV in the editing. It is likely that the researchers in the above study were not trying to prove bioresonance as such and they simply observed, as good researchers do, what happened under their instruments. Finally if you read the study you will note that the authors suggest that the dominant component of cell membrane fluctuations depends on the mechanochemical dynamic assembly of the membrane skeleton induced by the presence of mgATP, clearly they are talking about a mechanism involving energy. While the exact nature of that energy is not yet determined, you cannot rule out the possibility that there could be an electrical component to this effect. In fact other study have shown that mgATP not only produce energy but also act as a cyclotron at a molecular level and that such a cyclotron interact in a resonant manner with electrical fields in biological systems.NATTO 01:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC) ( added comment merged )

I agree with Redecke that it's irrelevant. In any case, it's WP:OR - assembling background material to argue a novel interpretation ("A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article). [1]. (And very shaky background at that; the cyclotron citation tracks back to Corentin Louis Kervran's transmutation theory, which is hardly accepted science). If you can find a reputable third party source saying the Levin and Korenstein study is relevant to bioresonance, fine. Otherwise... 86.142.249.213 07:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Anon 86.142.249.213|86.142.249.213. No argument was made in the article - only results of research on biological system listed. Of course we would not want to let facts get in the way of prejudice. Interesting to note that the only references in this article are one sided. I wonder why ? Hum let me think ? AR NATTO 10:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

hello natto ! I started to collect data related to bioresonance many years ago, and I never saw any scientific study supporting the bioresonance-concept. That is the simply reason why I am unable to add any neutral pro-bioresonsnace link. Morell (who died in 1990) was a senior scientology member here in Germany, and many companies producing BR-devices over here are linked to scientology (Regumed/Brüggemann). Morell was described in a german scientology-newspaper (College) as a high rank scientologist, and Brüggemann is member of IAS international association of scientologists as a Patron (>40.000 USD donations to COS). Redecke 12:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Redecke. I do not know if there are studies directly corroborating bioresonance as described above. You say there are none and that is fine because I do not have a point of view on the issue and I am more or less neutral regarding Scientology. People can and will believe what suits them. However I always remember the words of Carl Sagan " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ", in addition there is at least some scientific evidence to support the fact that human red and white cells do "resonate" at a low frequency and that this cyclical fluctuation is driven by energy though the mgATP mechanism ( a well accepted scientific mechanism ) and that electrical energy may be involved. That is what the studies mentioned showed. Whether this cell "resonance" has anything to do with what the manufacturers of bioresonance devices claim, that is another matter entirely. I simply think that valid studies in peer-reviewed journals should not be ignored because there are no studies supporting the effectiveness of bioresonance devices. Please lets keep an open mind on this issue so we do not throw the baby with the water. :-) NATTO 19:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

We put things in an encyclopaedia becuase there is evidence they happen, not becuase there is no evidence they do not. Low frequency and high frequency are less useful descriptions fo this than the frequency, in Hz. The Rife stuff was radio frequency, IE MHz range. I am unconvinced, but without reading the article cited, that the phenomenom of _resonance_ rather than an _oscillation_ is being discussed, teh two being different. Midgley 20:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

My previous discussion was with Redecke who appears to have at least reserched the issue instead of issuing broad statements based on his POV. If you first took time to read the study you would have noted that the frequencies are clearly noted in the study, between 0.2 to 30 Hz. Whether you are unconvinced or not is not the point and certainly humanity is not waiting for that. The point is that there is peer-reviewed research that has been done demonstrating that red and white cells do "resonate" at the above frequencies and that "resonance" is driven by an energy producing mechanism based on mgATP reactions. Nothing more , nothing less. This is published and corroborated by other studies. NATTO 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Many people have studied BR in the past, especially over here from where BR is coming. So, there has been published a lot of stuff (scientific and not-scientific articles) about that bioresonance, and I am sorry to say that I am unable to present any work showing that BR's results are reproducible or suited for a serious diagnosis in medicine. BR is used in alternative medicine for diagnostic and therapeutical purposes. And for this reason a medical test or therapy must show that it is at the same time harmless and effective. Some people may argue that the effectiveness of a medical test must not be proven in a scientific way, if it has been shown that it is (at least) harmless. A new method must always show it's effectiveness, and I don't ask you NATTO for instance to prove me or to show me a well-made study showing that lemonjuice is not effective for treatment of hair-loss, otherwise I would say: lemonjuice is effective because nobody could prove that it is not. Resonance: every object has ist own (mechanical) resonance-frequency für sound waves, even my computer-mouse on my desktop or a pencil. This fact does not link any pencil to BR. Electric currents-conducting objects have furthermore a high-frequency resonance frequency related to it's length and the speed of light. So every paper-clip made out of metal has it's own frequency and my eye-glasses have also their own. The human body has also a resonant frequency (better to say range) related to the length. I am 1.85 m and my frequency is around 81 MHz (VHF). And a single isolated RBC will resonate the best (7µm) at 21,4 GHz (microwaves). These values may differ a bit (a few percent) because the speed of electromagnetic waves will be higher than in air in this case. I was talking about scientology to show not only the links between Hubbards E-meter and BR-devices, but to show also the link to scientologists (at least here in Germany). Some BR-devices have been opened and analyzed (at least one by an engineer) and reports about their construction were published. In at least two cases, a resistor-measuring circuit has been found (Hörner M 1995 and Lee C 1997). This leads us to suppose that BR is based on the same principle than the well known lie-detector (the classic lie-detector as used in the USA usually uses some more parameters however), E-meter (has also been opened several times) and EAV-devices according to Voll (principle is well known). Again S Levin and R Korenstein study: I repeat: their work has nothing to do with BR. We cannot include a link to every study containing the word resonance or frequency hoping that it has somethink to do with BR. Michael Redecke 15:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

WP used for Scamming

This article is at present offensively bad, not just the semi-literate writing or the pseudoscientific waffle, but the reintroduction of arrant nonsense with the apparent aim of getting credibility in Google searches from WP. Midgley 21:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the article needs improvements, more balance and less POV based on one's world view, peer-reviewed research posted on Pubmed is valid information that can be cited in WP. It is not the job of editors to decide if they like the research or not. It is verifiable and credible. NATTO 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree: this article contains statements I have never heard from a BR-related company or a supporter of bioresonance. I will try to compile a short text citing precisely what the BR-device producing industry is telling us or claiming. At the same time I will write a short text with facts known about BR from a neutral point of view. I will need about 2 days, and I will present these two text here on the discussion page. concerning studies: many are in german only, some have been payed by the manufacturer of br-devices and some have a very low quality. So: not every study is citable. Redecke 15:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Differentiation

This article is so vague that I doubt most readers could fundamentally separate the article's "Mode of Operation" section from accepted "medical miracle" therapies such as "Electrical Stimulation of Bone Healing"--I'clast 05:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. According to the article ( as written at the moment ) manufacturers describe cells as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however) having a natural resonance (ie bio-resonance). If there is research to support that explanation it should be provided in the article as it is of relevance to the topic of the article. There is proven evidence that human cell membrane actually "fluctuates" at a frequency between 02. and 30 Hz and the fluctuation are driven by an biological energy producing system called MgATP. That is basically what manufacturers of the device are saying.

If on the other hand there is peer-reviewed research proving that cells do not have this property then it should also be included. Either way it is relevant. NATTO 07:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)