Jump to content

Talk:Great Wall of China: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
No edit summary
←Replaced page with 'gay as hell'
Line 1: Line 1:
gay as hell
{{talkheader}}
{{WPCHINA}}
{{WPMILHIST
|class=B
|Chinese-task-force=yes
|Technology-task-force=yes}}
{{FAOL|Arabic|ar:سور الصين العظيم}}
{{ArchaeologyWikiProject}}
{{WPCD}}

==Cannons, firelances, grenades, mines, and rockets==
A recent series on the history channel stated that the Chinese had more than 3,000 bronze cannons mounted on -[[User:intranetusa|intranetusa]] 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


==Vandalism==
Someone wrote this:
"[[Image:Inside_of_tower_on_Great_Wall.jpg|thumb|right|150px|Watchtower interior]]
jessssssssssssss is a defensive wall on the northern border was built and maintained by several dynasties at different times in Chinese history."

Corrected.

-[[User:intranetusa|intranetusa]] 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


==Archers?==

I heard in my class on MChina that the archers on the great wall were pointed inwards, as if they were controlling the Chinese people more than keeping barbarians out. I find this hard to believe...is it true?
:Probably not. -- '''[[User talk:Miborovsky|Миборо]][[User:Miborovsky/B|<font color="#FF0000">в</font>]][[User talk:Miborovsky|ский]]''' 01:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

==Map Showing Location==

Afer reading the whole article, I now see that the exact location of the wall remains hard to grasp by someone I sent to Wikipedia to research it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:China-Beijing.png

There is a good link to another photo showing the exact location of Beijing. Perhaps a similar map of China with a line representing the wall would be nice to add.

==Ruling Dynasty Links==
there should be link to some Chinese ruling dynasties during which it was being built.

: Added. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 08:54 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

==How Manchus Defeated the Wall==
Added how the Manchus defeated the wall. They got a general to defect and let them in. This General was Wu Sangui. Charged with defending Shanhaiguan pass against the Manchus during a major peasant rebellion led by the rebel Li Zicheng, Wu suddenly found himself between a rock and hard place when Li captured Beijing in 1644. With Li to the west and the Manchus to the northeast, Wu was persuaded to throw his lot in with Dorgon, half-brother to the deceased Manchu emperor Hong Taiji. Their combined forces retook Beijing from Li. As part of his reward for helping to defeat Li and the remaining Ming princes, Wu Sangui was granted control of Yunnan and Guizhou provinces, as well as parts of Hunan and Sichuan. In 1673, Wu Sangui led a rebellion against the Qing emperor Kangxi, until he died of dysentry in 1678.

==Wall Length==
There's a bit of a length problem, in that sources vary wildly from 3,000 to 6,000. See [[fr:Discuter:Grande Muraille de Chine]] -- [[User:Tarquin|Tarquin]] 08:48 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

: It's like counting WP articles, you can be very strict or not. Some walls are only bare remains now and cannot be walked now without structural damage, or danger to the walker. These are probably excluded in the strict count. Although I'm not exactly sure how the number could double... --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 08:53 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

:Well, the wall isn't completely connected, you know. There are actually unconnected parts that are long.[[User:Conquest1970|Conquest1970]] 00:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

:Therefore the article deserves a whole subsection on it's length with as much as information as possible described to the best of possibilities.

== Pass ==
I can upload a pic of the wall at Shanhaiguan that I took last month if anyone's interested? It was interesting to stumble upon the supposedly historic 'first gate under heaven' under (re)construction. I was able to climb up the scaffolding for a great view though, and the pic's ''passable'', though not brilliant. I'll see if I can't put it up shortly and add a link here. --[[User:Pratyeka|Pratyeka]] 05:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
:[[image:greatwall-shanhaiguan-2003-10-s.jpg|The Great Wall's 'First Gate Under Heaven', under repairs. Shanhaiguan, Hebei, 2003/10.]]
:Add it if you like! --[[User:Pratyeka|Pratyeka]] 05:21, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

:: Added. So is a pass basically a fortress? About how many gates does a pass have? --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 05:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

::: Come to think of it I didn't get the best look at the overall structure (I was more interested in my fiancee at the time ;) .. but if you imagine walls like '田', then the part I photographed was the bottom side of the bottom-left section. once you enter (upward), you turn right, and pass through another gate. After that, you keep going forward, and pass through another gate. Actually the 'tian' analogy isn't too good at all. Here's some ASCII art of the part I saw. (excuse the speed/dodginess)

||||.--------
||||I I X
||||I X I
||||--X-----'--------------.
|||| OX O I
||||--X-. -------------.v. I
|||| I >>> IvI I
|||| `---- vI I
|||| I I
|||| key: double-thickness wall: the main wall. X = gate. I/- = wall.
|||| > or v : ramp down the wall. O = watchtower

Whare are the ||||? And what is the orientation of the ASCII art? Are we looking at bird's-eye-view? --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 22:35, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

==Visible from "low earth orbit?'==
With regards to the Wall's visibility from space, wasn't this completely disproved by [[Yang Liwei]], the taikonaut? From what I recall, he was asked if he could see the wall while he was orbiting and he simply replied "No." --[[User:Darac|Darac Marjal]] 13:14, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. As I read the news story, it seemed to be saying that the Great Wall cannot be seen from space ''at all.'' Liwei was presumably in "low earth orbit," since I don't think humans have been sent farther than that recently. But just how high was he?

However, the argument that it is "only a few meters wide" isn't necessarily all that convincing since it is well known that the eye can detect extended linear features that would, on the basis of their thickness, be expected to be well below the eye's resolution. One minute = .0003 radians, so one meter subtends one minute at 1/.0003 meters = 3.4 kilometers. If "a few meters" means five meters, a five-meter object should just be visible at 17 kilometers. "Low earth orbit" seems to mean 100-500 miles = 160 to 1400 kilometers. I am almost certain that the eye can detect linear features that are ten times smaller than the nominal visual acuity. This would ''seem'' to put the Great Wall just within the range of visibility for the lowest of low earth orbits.

Undoubtedly the visibility would depend on lighting conditions. Many features on the Moon are invisible even with a small telescope much of the time, but leap out at you even in binoculars when they are near the terminator. Are there portions of the Great Wall that are oriented roughly north/south? Are any of them on relatively flat terrain? In the late afternoon or early morning it could be casting a contrasty shadow, and the width of that shadow could be several times the ''height'' of the Great Wall. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 12:39, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've done a bit of Googling on visibility of the Great Wall from space and have summarized the results in the article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 20:57, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[[User:Mulad|Mulad]] improved this section. But he added the statement about visibility from the moon not only becoming an urban legend but "sometimes entering textbooks." I won't remove it, but his summary remark on the edit, "heck, I think I saw this in a textbook in the U.S." strikes me as not meeting the very highest and best standard of scholarship.... :-)

Brooding more about this, the original Halliburton statement was to the effect that (unnamed) "astronomers" said it was visible from the moon. This suggests that possibly the original intended meaning was not that it could be seen from the moon with the naked eye, but that it ought to be visible from the moon using the best 1938 telescopes. This is worth fussing over, but it seems to me quite possible, judging from what spy satellites can do, that the wall could be seen from the moon with the eye looking through a big, traditional optical telescope. However, if so, obviously it would not be the only manmade structure that would be visible. Since the point of the original remark was to claim superlative magnitude the structure&mdash;to imply that it was the greatest or biggest or most impressive bit of human civil engineering in history, eclipsing the Pyramids, the creation of the Dutch polders, the U. S. Interstate highway system, etc. And it doesn't seem that it is. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 15:31, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

:There is significantly more pollution in China than there was 10 years ago, or 30 (in the case of Apollo). The fact that the Great Wall cannot be seen from space now but could be seen 15 years ago shouldn't surprise anyone.

:I removed this conclusion from the front page. See attached link for more information. "
Ultimately, the idea that the Great Wall is somehow more visible than any other man-made object of the same size is a [[mythology|myth]]." [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4459311.stm]

I hate removing paragraphs, but this section really didn't seem to quite fit:

"But Science has proved all enthusiasts wrong.

An average eye can see a 1mm object from 3m.This means that at even on a high plane's height (15km) you will still only be able to see a 5m object with the naked eye. Because the Great Wall is Grey on a greyish mountain background, this means that you can't even see it on a plane voyage. A low orbiting space shuttle is at 300km, so there is no way that you can see the Great wall up there, even if it was 20m wide. In fact, it's a bit like trying to see a fishing line from the top of an office building. No matter how long it is you just can't see it because it's so thin. But just maybe...those entusiasts could have the best vision in the known world..."

In addition to the not-quite-best choice of words, this wasn't sourced and I wasn't able to find a verifiable source online on this claim. I do not know if it's true, but I don't think it should be included without a source. Either way, feel free to rewrite it if verified. --[[User:JoeTrumpet|JoeTrumpet]] 18:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I reckon that the highest height an average experienced eye could see the great wall from is 150km. The human eye can see an object that is 1/60 of a degree in good conditions, and possibly 1/180 of a degree under the best POSSIBLE circumstance. Even this equates to seeing a 1m object at a distance of 9km or a 10m Great Wall width object at 90km. I will admit, though that with experience, this could be extended to, say 150km. Add this to a person with good vision, and they could see the great wall from a space shuttle in low earth orbit. --[[User:Tosayit|Tosayit]] 11:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

===Visible from Google Earth?===
A search for "Great Wall of China" on Google Earth produces a location ok, but nothing is discernable. There are still quite a few errors in the GE gazeteer, so that doesn't mean anything. The resolution is also poor, but that might be a fair record of what can be seen from low earth orbit. So this article could do with some latitude and longitude references, please - of the ends, of the thickest part, whatever. Does anybody have these?

Hi. I Google Earthed the coordinates mentioned in the article (33 55 N, 108 31 E), and by going to an oblique angle, it appears the purported wall is at the bottom of a valley and is therefore more likely a river. The European Space Agency made a similar mistake:(http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/image_of_day_040512.html) (Anonymous user, 4/15/2006)

==Non-commercial image==
[[Image:WildGreatWallShuiguanBeijing.jpg|thumb|Non-commercial use only, not compatible with GFDL and decreed unacceptable by Jimbo.]]
There were very many images on this page, so I looked into them, too see if something was reduntant or acceptable to remove. I found an image tagged with "noncommercial". Since it has recently been decided that it is not acceptable to use these, I think it's just good to take it out. Comments? [[User:Sverdrup|{{User:Sverdrup/sig}}]] 01:54, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:Please refer me to this decision - I have uploaded several images under this cc-nc, under two general cases.

:In one case, some images from china were provided to me by fellow tourist - we exchanged these with each other, I could probably track him down and get a verbal release.

:In the other case, the images were of performers [[Beijing Opera]], who charge admission for performances, or models in period dress [[Peterhof]], who expect recompense for their posing in costume. I did not feel that it would be appropriate to release these for commercial use without further release. All of my personal pictures and derivative works of public domain images are cc-sa and others donated for [[Sundial Bridge]] by a third party (a commercial artist) are cc-by-sa. Please answer here, I will watch. -- [[User:Leonard G.|Leonard G.]] 23:49, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Redirect ==

[[Great Wall]] should redirect here, with a disambig link at the top of this page. Seriously, who's ever heard of the "Great Wall of Galaxies"? --[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] 19:56, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Directing [[Great Wall]] here is a mistake, IMO. As Wiki gets more international, the plethora of products and companies with the "Great Wall" name that exist in China will need to go somewhere. --[[User:Shannonr|Shannonr]] 06:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And once the volume of people who want to visit those pages&mdash;when they exist, which it bears pointing out they don't&mdash;gets to be anywhere near the volume of people who want to visit this one, [[Great Wall]] can be converted back to a disambiguation page. This is standard Wikipedia practice for an instance where one meaning of a word is vastly more sought-after than another. Otherwise, we should create a disambiguation page at [[Sparta]] for all the places like [[Sparta, Georgia]] (population 1,522), don't you think? &mdash;[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User_talk:Simetrical|talk]]) 01:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Deaths ==

Is there an agreed upon estimate for the number of deaths which occured during the construction of the wall? --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades.tk]] 01:40, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
[http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Tourism/history-Great-Wall-3-defense.html this link says estimates exceede 1 million], though it doesn't look wholly reliable. It doesn't seem anyone knows for sure the cost in terms of human lives. [[User:Citizen Premier|Citizen Premier]] 07:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

::And is there a reason it is mentioned that the people were not buried in the wall? Such a claim seems silly to make unless there are legends concerning it.

== Map? ==
Can anyone add a map that show where the wall exactly is? [[User:Kowloonese|Kowloonese]] 23:44, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Or even better: a Google Earth Path along the wall.

== Strategic Value of the Great Wall? ==

How well did the Great Wall serve the various Dynasties?



I have done some extensive readings on the history of the Mongol empire, and in many accounts, it was stated that Genghis Khan used some kind of particular cunning to break through the fortifications.

However, it appears that during the Genghite invasion, the wall really was not very continuous and Genghis simply had to go around it. It were the descendants of the Genghites (I think they were the 'founders' of the Ming dynasty) who finally made the wall into what it is today. Had it been there at the time of the Genghites, it may have changed the course of history a little.

--[[User:Dietwald|Dietwald]] 18:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I ascribe to the theory put forward by Franz Kafka in his story about the Great Wall [[http://www.mala.bc.ca/~Johnstoi/kafka/greatwallofchina.htm]]. He suggests it was a white elephant set up to keep the people occupied, to give them roles to play in society they might not have had otherwise. Politically, it must have been a powerful symbol too, suggesting just by its presence that the outside world was dangerous - the same xenophobia our current politicians use -- after all, as Dietwald points out, it was not much of a physical barrier to the Mongols - so must have had more symbolic than actual value. Is this worth adding to the article? [[User:Adambrowne666|Adambrowne666]] 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The Mongols did not break through the Great Wall. The Great Wall then was useless because China was divided among the Song Dynasty and the Jinn Dynasty (The Jinn Dynasty later destroyed by an alliance of the Mongols and Song, and the Song defeated thereafter). The Great Wall CAN be effectively used, however. An example is the Ming dynasty defence against the Manchus (which would have held on for much longer if Wu Sangui did not defect). Moreover, claiming the founders of the Ming Dynasty are descendants of the Genghites is simply ridiculous. [[User:Aranherunar|Herunar]] 06:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't quite understand what you're saying Herunar - are you saying the Wall was useless at first, then became useful later? [[User:Adambrowne666|Adambrowne666]] 00:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

== Source for Qin Shi Huang moon legend? ==

A very interesting paragraph was recently added, beginning:

:"Legend says the First Emperor (Qin Shi Huang) once dreamed his soul traveled to the moon...."

That might explain how the legend of its being visible from the moon arose.

But I'd be happier if a source for this legend were cited. Does anybody know one? I've also left a note on [[User_talk:66.17.105.226]] asking about this. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] [[User_talk:dpbsmith|(talk)]] 22:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

:Well, I hate to sound ungrateful, but I'm not too happy about the source, http://www.indexa.fr/ConfigNav/test.pdf, which 66.17.105.226 has provided. It seems to be an ad for a CD-ROM "edutainment" title, so if someone has that title it might be possible to dig further. The problem for me is that the article opens:
:What’s the only man-made artifact visible from the moon? The Great Wall of China. You probably knew that, but we bet you didn’t know that this fact is prefigured in a Chinese legend dating back to the third century B.C.
Since the Great Wall of China is ''not'' even ''close'' to being visible from the moon, this doesn't give me much confidence in the accuracy of the source.

I would suggest removing the text. Even most native Chinese don't know such a "legend". --[[User:137.189.4.1|137.189.4.1]] 15:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

''Legend [http://www.indexa.fr/ConfigNav/test.pdf] says the [[Qin Shi Huang|First Emperor (Qin Shi Huang)]] once dreamed his soul traveled to the moon. From here, he was dismayed to see his entire kingdom amounted to nothing more than a tiny dot. The story says at that moment he decided to build a mighty wall stretching along his kingdom's northern border and beyond, in hopes of expanding his kingdom (and its wall) to the point of visibility even from the moon.''

Okay I moved the text here until a more trustable source is given. --[[User:Lorenzarius|Lorenzarius]] 12:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

why was the wall built if the people were against it and it didnt serve its purpose
== Time of Building ==

The wall started being built around 200BC, while the Ming Dynasty version in this article is from the 14th century to the 16th.
[[User:Conquest1980|Conquest1980]] 01:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

== what categories? ==
I'm unsure of the rules of categories, but I figured that I could link from Hadrian's Wall to this via Category:Fortification but instead found that the on one in common is Category:Walls, not that I know the difference between the two. [[User:Mulp|Mulp]] 17:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

== Regarding the foreign language in this article ==

I think this article might be better improved with information from the Chinese language Wikipedia, not Arabic language Wikipedia.

== Need sources for this assertion ==

This needs to be sources.

::The last great wall of the Ming really was a military fortification of some strength. However, military historians are generally dismissive of the net value of this great wall. It was astonishingly expensive to build, maintain and garrison. The money the Ming spent on the wall could have been spent on other military capabilities such as European style artillery or muskets. The fact remains that the great wall was of no help at all in preventing the [[Ming Dynasty#Fall of the Míng Dynasty|Ming Dynasty's fall]].

== Rabbits ==
''The Great Wall of China was originally built to keep rabbits out of China. It was considered that there was too many rabbits in China.''

Uh? Is this vandalism or were the Chinese really worried about the rabbit population? And I might add: was it out of whim or need? --[[User:A Sunshade Lust|A Sunshade Lust]] 14:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvlWQyvEI38

This isn't vandalisim per se, it's a bunch of Australians making a reference to an Advertising campaign ran in [[Australia]] by [[Telstra]] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvlWQyvEI38]. These users are going to keep editing it until there's a reference in the article to it which will just keep causing the page to be revised and changed by the Anti Vandal bot and other senior users. I have placed a new section within the article titled advertising references which make appropriate reference to the issue and should be enough to keep users who wish to muck with the page at bey for the moment at least. --[[User_talk:Thewinchester|Thewinchester]] 13:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC -0800)

It is important to ensure all information about the wall is included in the article so the unmistakably massive influence of rabbit's in the creation of world's first instance of a Rabbit Proof Fence should remain. They actually measured the length in rabbit hops instead of kilometres or miles (4,567,964,001 hops).

: Ha ha, boy, you're a really clever person, you know that? Ha ha ha. Thanks for sharing. - [[User:DavidWBrooks|DavidWBrooks]]

Thankyou David, you are too kind. Also, remember that it was the emperor Nasi Goreng who commisioned the creation of the Great Rabbit Proof Fence of China.
TaTaForNow! Don't forget History is what we make it. It normally has very little to do with the truth, especially when its the history of a war. To the victors goes the truth.

== Too many links to photos ==
I would like to kill all the external links to collections of Great Wall photos. They are proliferating like the rabbits that the wall kept out of China - no, wait, that was a vandalism - and are incredibly easy to find via Google, anyway; they add nothing to this article. - [[User:DavidWBrooks|DavidWBrooks]] 16:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
: There are definitely too many photos. Wikipedia is not a place for site-seeing. [[User:Wang ty87916|Wang ty87916]] 16:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's part of a Bigpond (www.bigpond.com) ad. A kid asks his dad "dad, why was the great wall of China built?" ... answer: "to keep the rabbits out..." Quite funny.[[User:58.162.18.184|58.162.18.184]] 06:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

== verification ==

i just read on BBC that they found more peices to the wall, making it around 7,200km long/ THE LINK IS http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1184306.stm CAN SOMEONE VERIFY THIS? i am no good with things like this(verification)

by the way, can someone tell me exactly how many people visit the great wall yearly? the info would be much appreciated
[[User:Oldmansnake99|Oldmansnake99]] 18:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

==Opened to Tourism... when?==

There should be some little trivia bit on when this was opened to the public for tourisim.

[[User:WiiWillieWiki|WiiWillieWiki]] 14:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

== "largest" ==

>The Great Wall is the world's largest man-made structure

I'm not debating this, but I suggest that this might want to be clarified in the article intro? Largest meaning? longest? largest volume of space? largest area of land covered? spanning the largest range of land? etc.

== Chinese translation ==

I thought "Great Wall" translates to 长城, and 万里长城 is simply an idiom/tourism slogan? I have never seen it referred to as "万里长城" in any pre-modern text, and I'm pretty sure it's referred to as 长城 in official documents (e.g. by UNESCO or by the PRC government). --[[User:Sumple|Sumple]] ([[User_Talk:Sumple|Talk]]) 05:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
some people need this info so stop putting stupid comments.!

Revision as of 00:51, 19 December 2006

gay as hell

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Great_Wall_of_China&oldid=95210243"