Talk:Condoleezza Rice

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Economist Rumor

The Economist now has on the front page of its website a rumor that she may take over the VPship for Cheney prior to the end of the current administration. It is being circulated on several of the major media networks. Calling for opinions if it should merit inclusion in her article.

This (post right above this line) is interesting-- but it would help if this post was dated. Is this still relevant? Or an old flash in the pan?

Phil

67.42.243.184 20:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

small correction needed

"Gaza is now under Palestinian control once again for the first time in 38 years."

Actually, 38+ years ago Gaza was under Egyptian not Palestinian control... For some reason there's no editing option on the page so I can't fix this myself.

roles and cultural orientation

Since Rice's cultural orientation is largely skewed toward Central America, the assessment of the performance of her international roles would include African-American criticism. 15:51, 23 August 2006 Beadtot (Talk | contribs) (roles and cultural orientation)

GA

This article is most certainly a good article. I think it is good enough to be a FA, though some might complain about the recent edit war, despite it seeming to have ended.Some P. Erson 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd wait another two weeks at least before taking this article to FAC. That should fulfill stability requirements, barring an unforeseen flareup. -Fsotrain₀₉ 19:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Cultural/Ethnic/Racial description as an "African-American"

I have trouble understanding what is the substance of the term "African-American" in general. When used in connection with Condollezza Rice I get even more confused. Condi seems to have racial features accross the board so it is not a racial description after all?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.239.129.42 (talk • contribs)

What else should she be classified as? Chinese American?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Condoleezza Rice is an "African American" in the sense that her great-great grandparents on both sides of her family originated from the continent of Africa, and in the sense that she is an American citizen. Therefore, she is an "African American". I don't know what other racial description you could use to classify her. Is this what you mean? --Ai.kefu 00:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

--Vandalism-- 70114205215 said: "Dear Apple Rancher: Please stop vandalizing the Condi Rice page as you did today. Also, Don't go on the Condi Rice Talk page and claim that you fixed the vandalism that you created. -- 70114205215 19:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)"

Very funny. Since you saw my comment about my repair to the Rice page "today" (the day I fixed it) It is probable that you were watching the site. Since you have no concern about asserting that I vandalized the page without any cause for such assertion, I find it likely that you were the culprit (the fact that you have registered under a string of numbers also indicates that you have no personal interest in the site, its community or its purpose of providing accurate information). Given that you have nothing to do but vandalize the work of others and watch all day to see if anyone notices, I suspect that you are either a bureaucrat or unemployed. Either way I feel sorry for you.

Please watch this site for future vandalism. It also might become necessary to check into user names that are all numbers or that appear to be randomly generated to see if they are posting to regularly vandalized pages. Apple Rancher 02:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Condi's talent: Rhetorical skills/spin?

1. Bush administration first 8 months: holiday at Crawford? Condolleezza Rice has tried to defend Bush administrations passivity before 9/11/2001[[1]]. It is arguable that she seems to deliver a substantive rebuttal, but as we check the facts we realize that she did not. However, she did succeeded rhetorically during the performance.

2. Foreign policy skills. Codoleezza failed to get anything right Israel adn Lebanon. She didn't manage to buy time for a military solution and she failed to bring US in as the mediator after the military solution came to a dead end. Instead the middle ground of diplomacy in ME has been lost to EU and it's partly socvialist govenrments. How about quiting diplomacy and working for Rummy instead?

3. Russia? Well, there she went again rambling about her competence in Russian affairs after 2000 elections. And now after 6 years of Condi's advice Russia has EU and China by the balls - and US waisting money to get alternative oil from Iraq...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.239.129.42 (talk • contribs) 02:09, September 27, 2006 (UTC)

Please keep discussion directly related to the Condoleezza Rice article. --ElKevbo 13:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! This is not an opinion board. Nor should she be assaulted merely because she is Black and a Moderate Conservative on foreign policy.

Phil

67.42.243.184 20:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on going for FAC

How do editors feel about this now? The editwar has been over for a few weeks, and the article is largely stable at this point, allowing for the vandalism-draw of the subject's notability. Would a few more days or weeks be good, or should we try taking this to FAC now? -Fsotrain₀₉ 15:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

There are still quite a lot of formatting issues: refs should come after a comma or period, but not before. Under #Academic career, "The school at that time was running a deficit of $20 million" requires a citaiton. The #Business career also needs a bit of citing. I was suprised to see that she was one of the board of directors for HP. Iolakana•T 18:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we should try and work towards nominating this article to FA status. By that, we should seek some of the more experienced editors' advice on how to improve this article, and once we feel that there are no substantive flaws, then we can finally submit it for FA. But I think it's time now that we should push really hard to perfect this article and make it FA-worthy, definitely. The editwar has been over for about two months, actually. I'd say this article is stable enough, has a good enough reputation as a GA, and is close enough to acceptable that it wouldn't take an immense deal of work to finally make it a FA. --Ai.kefu 05:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

What was the revert war about? Iolakana•T 20:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Feast your eyes on Talk:Condoleezza Rice/archive2 and Talk:Condoleezza Rice/archive3. --Dystopos 22:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Incomprehensible" Quote, Woodward's proof

So the NY Times has broken the story, just hours after Rice's denial, that she was, as Bob Woodward's book reported, briefed by George Tenent on July 10th, 2001 about the immenent threat that Al Qaeda posed. She said yesterday (Oct. 1, '06) that it was "incomprehensible" that she ignored the threats 2 months before the Sept.11 attacks. "I would remember if I was told, as this account apparently says, that there was about to be an attack in the United States, and the idea that I would somehow have ignored that I find incomprehensible," Rice said. Well, it just got a lot more comprehensible. If there was ever an item that needs to be added to the 'criticisms' section, it's this. Condi Rice, 'did not recall' such a meeting, while Tennent felt they were getting the "brush off," which apparently they were, considering Rice doesn't even recall being warned. There is now conclusive proof that this meeting did occur, according to White House records, according to Sean McCormack, a State Dept. Spokesperson. This info needs to be added, as it's a relevant crticism: Rice was warned, 2 months prior to 9/11, that Al Qaeada was planning an attack, possibly on American soil, and she ignored it. When this was brought up in Bob Woodward's book, Rice denied it happened, until White House records proved her wrong. This is relevant because she was the National Security Advisor at the time, so she was in a position to do something with this information, but didn't. We could also add this to the page on Woodward's book, as it proves him right. Here's a link to the article. [2] 70.104.134.105 00:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)TS (Oct. 2, '06)

I believe that issue should be covered in the article, but not in above manner of 70.104.134.105. Clearly the above representation is POV and conclusionary. Woodward does not more proof of the way things happened than anyone else. It is just ludicrous to assume that if Woodward says it, its true. Besides, it is not up to mere Wikipedians to decide what it true and what is not true, that is inherently POV, just like the above commentary of 70.104.134.105.--Getaway 13:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong w/70.104.135.105's representation. clearly it is factual, empirical, verifiable, NPOV, chronlogical. It's ludicrous to give a single person of questionable credibility whose assertions are contradicted by the official record the same weight as multiple people with high credibility whose assertions are verified by the official record. Kevin Baas^talk 22:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but it is a fact that Richard Ben-Veniste, a partisan Democratic political hack and a member of the 911 Commission has backed up Condi Rice's version of the story today. The meeting was disclosed the 911 Commission and there turns out not to be an issue here other than an attempt by some Democrats to create a false story to damage Rice and the Republicans right before an election. Yawn. Please review this article: The independent Sept. 11, 2001, commission was given the same “scary” briefing about an imminent al Qaida attack on a U.S. target that was presented to the White House two months before the attacks, but failed to disclose the warning in its 428-page report.

Re: Katrina Criticisms

Changed one word regarding Rice's activities during Hurricane Katrina and kept the citation intact, but rather within the confines of a redirect to Snopes (which quotes the same source). This change is both public and more NPOV than the previous entry. -PJ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obiwanjacoby (talk • contribs) 02:34, October 8, 2006 (UTC)

Please finish changing the reference citation if you're going to use Snopes as the reference. It is unacceptable to state that the reference is from one source when the URL is for a different source.

And please sign your posts (with four tildes: ~~~~). --ElKevbo 07:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, response sent. Obiwanjacoby 03:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)Obiwanjacoby

To-Do for Article Improvement

From both the automated Peer review and user comments:

• Trim the lead, making sure it summarizes the article
• Cleanup WP:MOS issues: only full dates and years/decades/centuries providing context should be linked; remove relative time phrases and instances of "^th" from dates
• Condense the ToC: combine shorter sections and/or spin out daughter articles (political stances and the early life and education sections were suggested as candidates for that)
• Make sure each section is in Summary style.
• Get reliable references for statements in the "Criticisms" section
• Remove embedded links in the article, move to "External links" section if necessary
• Remove weasel words and redundancies
• Thorough copy-editing, including checking for use of non-breaking spaces

-Fsotrain⁰⁹ 17:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this worth adding somewhere?

• Secretary Rice's view of the world Interview by Cal Thomas

Asteriks 00:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

politics?

I know this is probably an abuse of the WP discussion but does anyone know about her politics? Every time someone asks me why I think Condi shud be prez I'd like to come up w/ a different answer than the fact that she is a black female and it's be cool to have an ethnic female president of the USA. So does anyone wanna leave what she thinks about gun control, abortion, same-sex marriage, the whole shabang on my talk page for my user page @ The Texas Drama King

Nancy Pelosi

I've twice removed additions that add mention of Nancy Pelosi in relation to Rice's current status as the "highest ranking woman ever." If someone else readds the information I won't remove it again as I will obviously be in the minority. I simply don't think it's necessary, helpful, or even particularly informative to add this information to this article. When Pelosi takes over as House Speaker then this article can be updated. Until then I think this info should remain out. But that's just my opinion and I'm not going to live or die over this issue as it's not that important or critical. --ElKevbo 22:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Somehow Condi's picture was replaced with Gary Coleman's with an equally silly caption underneath, I have removed this vandalism. Shanew2 13:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

vandalism?

For some reason when I loaded this page, all that came up was "omg why is this what other countries have to deal with lol shes so fuckin ugly with a gap in her teeth"

I see no picture or anything else. But when I went to edit the page, everything seemed fine?

Edit: Okay never mind. It seems to have been fixed...

Iranian section

the iranian section, like most of this article actually, reads like a press release from the state department. Can we please add Irans side of the story to it? --Aliwalla 18:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Fashion

Condoleezza has been noted by several magazines to be a sharp dresser. Maybe there should be a small section on this? In the interests of covering not just her public career, but other aspects as well..

• THOU SHALT SIGN THINE TALK POSTS! Stuart says: Heweyeweyeweyeweyeweyewey... The Duke of Condoleezza Rice, Bow before me! ^{You can't control me!} _{I'm a P. I.!} 00:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you please shorten your new sig? It's a bit long. --ElKevbo 01:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Middle Name

Does she have a middle name? SkaTroma 19:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Titusville

In Dr. Rice's biography, the neighborhood she grew up in (Titusville) is referred to as a "ghetto"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#Early_life_and_education

Rice was born in Birmingham, Alabama, and grew up in the ghetto of Titusville.

However, the Wikipedia entry for the neighborhood of Titusville refers to it as "a community of middle-class African American families"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titusville,_Birmingham,_Alabama Since the early 20th century Titusville has been a community of middle-class African American families, including architect Wallace Rayfield and minister John Wesley Rice, Jr, the father of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. One of these entries is glaringly inaccurate... I wonder which???

Keithengland 06:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The answer is probably 'both'. Here's how--

I went to school with a number of close African-American friends from "the ghetto" of SouthEast Washington D C.--

Some of these kids were clearly middle class, some were blue collar and some were from poor families. Due to the after-effects of segregation there were a number of Black middle class enclaves in Southeast D.C. that were surrounded by, or neigboring, much poorer communities. I'm sure this was not an unusual pattern for those times. So there may not be a 'conflict' in this description of Dr. Rice's early life at all. In those days middle-class Whites lived in the suburbs-- but many middle class Blacks, due to discrimination, remained in small enclaves within larger 'ghetto' communities. I believe such enclaves exist to this day and are in fact growing, although Black suburban populations are also growing.

These families, by the way, often played courageous local leadership roles during that era. Less than famous-- but no less courageous.

Phil

67.42.243.184 20:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say either is glaringly inaccurate. As a resident of Birmingham, I've heard every neighborhood/city/surrounding area referred to in so many different ways, it's hard to keep up. More than likely, two different editors wrote the sentences in question and refer to the area in different ways. You are of course welcome to be bold and change one of the two articles for consistency. Welcome to Wikipedia! -- AuburnPilot^talk 06:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. After finally finding when this term was added, it was most probably vandalism....hmmm I guess I assumed too much good faith. ;-). -- AuburnPilot^talk 06:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"Vandalism" is an interesting way of putting it... it appears to me that someone was trying to over-dramatize Dr. Rice's story... either that or someone in the Titusville community was trying to enchance its historical description... I suppose the generic "neighborhood" is preferable to the inaccurate, overly dramatic "ghetto" description, but I'm curious as to why the description of Titusville in Dr. Rice's bio still differs from the description of Titusville under its own heading. keithengland68.70.222.23 15:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If you know more about this particular topic or care to do the appropriate research, please make any necessary and proper changes. --ElKevbo 16:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that the description of one place differs in two sections on the same site based on my ability to read... I'm not sure what constitutes "appropriate" research beyond noting that there's a discrepancy... beyond that, I'm satisfied that the word "ghetto" has been replaced with a less-dramatic one... it will be interesting to watch and see if it reappears... keithengland68.70.222.23 16:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• A couple of observations: During Rice's childhood, Titusville was pretty solidly middle glass, but also racially segregated from white middle class neighborhoods. The word "ghetto" can properly be used to describe a forced enclave for an ethnic group, but since its most common meaning connotes poverty, it would be inaccurate to use it in Rice's biography. Currently the neighborhood is still largely black and has been affected negatively by poverty, fragmentation and structural decline. Middle class families remain, but do not predominate. "Ghetto" would be an apt description, especially from outside the context of Birmingham's other inner city neighborhoods. Personally I would avoid the loaded word altogether. --Dystopos 17:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Personal Life

The article is very detailed on Ms. Rice's professional life. However, there is not a single trace about how her private life is going on. What about her parents? Are they still alive? Is she married? If yes, to whom? Does she have children? The article doesn't give any information about that at all while I think it should. Some info needs to be obtained. --Maxl 23:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"Derived from Con dolcezza..."

I'd like to see more detail on this. How can Condoleezza be "derived from" Con dolcezza?

I'd speculate that this is a euphemistic (and therefore non-neutral) way of saying that someone goofed—committed a typo, or misread someone's handwriting, or wrote the wrong letter...

What was the point of the double-E-double-Z?

If the intention were, say to make the name more easily pronounced, wouldn't the spelling would have been "Condoleeza," with one Z, if the intention was to pronounced the way it is pronounced, or "Condolchetza" if the intention was to pronounce it like "Con dolcezza?" Dpbsmith (talk) 16:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

2 heartbeats away; for 24 hrs

Should it be mentioned? from Noon EST January 3rd, 2007 until Noon January 4th, 2007 (until new Speaker & President pro tempore) are sworn in, Secy of State Rice is 2nd in line of succession to the Presidency? GoodDay 00:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

No. Actully, the leader of the House if in emergency is Hastert, and the Senate is Stevens. Should Bush/Cheney die today, it would be Hastert to be President. Carpet9 00:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Condi Rice, would become President. GoodDay 01:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. In only 1 hour, the new Congress will be sworn in. Carpet9 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fake Quotes & Poor Editing

I removed the following sentence from the article: In 2002, Belafonte used a variation of the term, White House nigger, to characterize former Secretary of State Colin Powell and former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice. Now, there are several reasons why I removed this sentence. First of all, the article has ALL of the Harry Belafonte hatred that it needs, but also the sentence is just flat full of lies. I actually read the underlining article that supposedly serves as the citation to back up this POV BS. No where in the underlining article from Front Page magazine is the term "White House nigger" used. The term is merely the nasty, racist hatred of a Wikipedian and I tried to remove it immediately after I saw it. However, ElKevbo, who is usually a good editor, immediately reverted me without taking the time to check and see if the quote was correct or whether it was just the racist rantings of a nasty, racist Wikipedian, which of course it was. Belafonte did NOT in any way use the word "nigger" just a racist Wikipedia did. I am having feelings of deja vu. If you go back and look through the archives of this article you will see that this particular article about Dr. Condi Rice has been the target of racist hatred over and over again. Good Wikipedian editors would be on the look out for this nasty, narrow-minded, toothless hillbilly, racist, Democratic Underground tactics. If this sentence comes back in any form it will be immediately removed.--Getaway 17:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's set the record straight. Your reason for the original removal of the material was "No. We aren't going to repeat Belafonte's racist comments. Wikipedia is not about racism and hatred." In turn, I reverted your edit with the edit summary "rv: Wikipedia is not censored; there may be valid grounds on which to remove that phrase but objection to the character of the content is not one of them." Given your stated reasons for making your original edit, I stand by my action.

If the statement is not supported by the cited reference then it must be removed - no question. If, however, your only objection is that "I don't like it! It's mean!" then that is a completely invalid objection. There may be (and probably are) other valid objections - undue weight, unreliable source, non-notable material, etc. - but removing cited material solely because you disagree with its character is prima facie censorship. And Wikipedia is not censored.

We both initially missed that the cited article does not contain the phrase "house nigger" (although it certainly expresses the sentiment!). I apologize for not vetting the source as thoroughly as I should. --ElKevbo 17:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I should have made it clear that Wikipedia was not "going to repeat Belafonte's racist comments" because the article all ready has plenty of Belafonte's ignorant spittle, making the new comment redundant. At any rate, whenever the "n-word" raises it head and it somehow makes it way into a Wikipedia article there needs to be review of the source, the editor, the context, and decision needs to be made whether Wikipedia needs to lower itself to that level. That is NOT censorship, but good editing. Just for the record, any sentence that use the "n-word" in the future I will remove it immediately. In that situation, I am going to shoot first and ask questions later.--Getaway 19:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Sister hoax?

Shortly after Rice first became the NSA, I remember seeing a woman on a daytime talk show, can't remember if it was Oprah, one of the cable news talk shows, or some other daytime talker, but this woman was claiming to be Condi's sister. She was supposedly a liberal professor somewhere, and disagreed with her sister politically, but they got along well as sisters. I believed that Rice had a liberal sister for years, until recently when I read that she is an only child. I figure the sister thing was a hoax, but on researching it, I cannot find any mention or record of this woman's claim, and all references state that Rice is an only child. Does anyone else recall seeing this woman on TV back in early 2001? I clearly remember this interview, but can't find anything about it. - Crockspot 16:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina criticism

I'm just wondering how Rice buying shoes has any real relevance other than anti-Rice rantings. If I remember correctly, the world doesn't stop when hurricanes hit land unless you happen to be where it hits land. I doubt all of the United States sat home and cried as this happened. This comes off as petty BS so I went ahead and removed the paragraph. I'd appreciate some discussion on this if it is re-inserted. AuburnPilot^talk 18:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Counterterrorism

• Memorandum for Condoleezza Rice; from Richard A. Clarke
• Testimony to the 9/11 Commission

I'd suggest we engage in discussion, the only section of this article which is of some interest to me is terrorism section, which is (in its current state) POV. As pointed in the links above Dr. Rice failed to recognize some very clear, present & blatant warnings. Whether you consider this to be criminal negligence (failure to provide proper and or reasonable level of care - with regards to her position, of course…) or not is not an issue here. These are known and important facts; facts which definitely belong in the article. Lovelight 16:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)