Talk:Washington College

Important Alumni

what criteria makes some alumni more important than others? either put none or all on the front page. WillC 21:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Fraternities on campus

Ths issue concerning the fraternities is simple- both the 'Phi Delts' and 'KAs' were found guilty of hazing ... they admitted to it (Spring 2005)! The following Fall, a bunch of guys came together and decided to make another fraternity, the current colony and soon to be chartered Kappa Sigma. Reasons for making this group vary, however, the general consensus was to make a group that did not view hazing as a ritualistic pledging process and to actually follow the fraternities guidelines (something the other male fraternities on campus should learn to do). Pledges from both the Phi Delts as well as the KAs that turned their back on the fraternities for their lies and unfulfilled obligations to the members made this group for fun, ACADEMICS and community workship, not just parties and hazing opportunities.

Documentation is provided for the NON-BIASED correction made on the article about the male fraternities, with cited information provided. If you can find other material stating otherwise, by all means please correct the information provided. Until that time, leave your biased opinion off of this article and take your business elsewhere.D-Hell-pers 18:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Sir,

I note that your citation is of an article about the fraternities you mentioned RETURNING to their housing after correcting their errors, not losing it. The article as it exists by your alteration is biased towards Kappa Sigma. The latest correction is unbiased. Please do not alter it. Both Kappa Alpha Order and Phi Delta Theta have worked very hard with their respective national headquarters since the incidents to correct the errors of their ways.

Your comments here are EXTREMELY biased - I believe that KAs and Phi Delts who are here on academic scholarships would be very dissapointed to read that Kappa Sigma, which hopes to become part of the greek community at Washington College, looks down upon them as people who are interested in nothing but "parties and hazing opportunities".

It might interest you to know that members of KA and Phi Delta Theta serve as editors of the Collegian and the Elm, are members of honor societies, are involved in both sports and academic opportunities on campus, and complete many hours of community service per year. Phi Delta Theta just hosted a dry superbowl party open to the whole campus in their house in an effort to provide a safe place for people to watch the game without alcohol.

If you can provide documented evidence that both fraternities still haze, despite the feelings of the college, which gave them back housing (I quote the source that YOU provided- "Both groups worked hard to get their housing back," said Park. "I am very optimistic that they will create a good, solid community within the larger [WC] community."), and their national organizations, which took both chapters off probation, please present it. Until then, please leave the article as it is - Kappa Sigma is acknowledged, as are the hazing incidents, but without any bias towards either side.

Thank you.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.243.42.39 (talk • contribs) 10:52, February 5, 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed your edit, and found that you have re-instated biases.

First, these were not 'allegations' for they were not accusations. Both groups plead guilty, don't cheapen it and make it sound like they were un-reasonably accused for something they didn't do. They were punished because they DID break campus policies and they DID haze their pledges. You sound as if you know the groups well, so we do not have to go into details what they DID do their pledges.

Secondly, if you want to criticize on biases, then state the facts. Probation was over, and neither fraternity screwed up (or at least, were not turned in again for screwing up) during their probational period. As was stated by their probational specifics, they got their housing back by default. If their behavior was so great, they would have had their probation cut short.

Lastly, the previous edition before your edit was not biased toward Kappa Sigma. In the fall after the fraternal incidents, a group came together (composed of former pledges of Kappa Alpha and Phi Delta Theta, as well as supporters for a true, non-hazing, pro-academic fraternity to be established). Looking at fraternal specifics, Kappa Sigma holds the highest GPA of all male fraternities. As a former pledge of one of the two groups, I can state many reasons why this is so: during my pledge process, instead of studying I was out being hazed - scavenger hunts, high consumption of drinking (many times making myself and my fellow pledges to upchuck many times), etc etc etc keeping me out well into the A.M.; having to run errands for established brothers; and my personal favorite- having to choose, many times, whether to study for an exam/do my homework or continue my pledging. Being a good sport about it, I took this abuse until I got smart and asked myself why? When I told the fraternity I was leaving and asked for my money back since the chapter did not follow it's national guidelines, I helped turn in the fraternity when I was denied.

I believe ... I know that non-biasy has been re-established. I kept some of your edits, but deleted the "ahh, they are super terrific" crap that was tagged along.

Thanks for your insight and help though. D-Hell-pers 18:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I will not continue to argue whatever bias you may hold.. I was not involved in whatever hazing you may have gone through, as I joined after the fact, found all hazing to be eliminated by the hard work of the existing brothers (which included the expulsion of those who would not comply to the new standards) and I have worked and continue to work hard to rebuild the fraternity I am proud to be a part of.

As you say, I am familiar with both organizations (although after the fact of the hazing incidents), as well as their efforts to correct the errors of the past, and I can assure you that, in fact, the governing bodies of both fraternities do not make it easy to come off of probation; hence the original exemplary wording. Both have specifically created disciplanary arms and action programs for dealing with hazing, and both fulfilled the rigorous improvements and reworkings required of them. However, I will not argue the point.

I hope that in the future, all four fraternities can move towards less mistrust of one another and closer to the true meaning of Greek fraternity as a positive influence on campus and in the lives of its members. I, for one, have many friends in Kappa Sigma who do not share your obvious (and somewhat understandable, considering your description of what you went through) hatred of KA and PDT and their members despite knowing little about their current status and new members, and I look forward to the day when you all recieve your full place in the Greek structure at Washington College. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.243.42.39 (talk • contribs) 14:24, February 5, 2007 (UTC)

I too have those friends. Like I mentioned, the group was not all former pledges. The group could be split into factions, however, we all share a common goal. I have moved on from hatred and onto openmindedness, finding ways to improve the campus fraternal programs. If what you say is true, then my sacrafice has made way for your enjoyment, as it has for many new pledges. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by D-Hell-pers 05:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hazing

one thing you forget in all of this....it actually happened. don't sugar coat it. WillC 21:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

exactly my point Will C. I have moved on from hatred, I am better than that ... I am better than those who are responsible for the actions that brought so much discredit to both groups. I was always taught to stand up for my beliefs, and never settle for less. One's actions do make a difference, and although I may have had to been put through hell for the rest of my stay at Washington College, I am happy to report that I started a movement that may have set the fraternities straight on campus (from what 209.____.___ mentions). The point is, IT Happened! And I seemed to be one of the few strong enough maturely and emotional to make a change for the better. D-Hell-pers 02:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Please post credible sources for claims of this caliber. The current citation does not make any claim as to why two Washington College fraternities initially lost their fraternity housing. If you can properly cite your claims, by all means, follow through with them. Until then, stick to the rules. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.8.166 (talk) 05:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

141.157.8.166, before editing factual additions to this article, think to yourself .... "why in the world would not one, but two fraternities be booted from their housing, be placed on probation, and need to show that they could have it back?" It was not because the organization was becoming 'too cool' for campus and had to be split up for a period of time to lose their 'coolness,' it was their hazing crimes that was responsible for the fact. Other ###.###.#.###'s and members have discussed this fact, even on this page. Everyone knows that many fraternities still haze in all parts of this country (check their individual websites-there are many postings of where chapters have been temporariliy closed due to hazing). Edits and discussions have been held about how the groups have evolved (or at least note they have evolved) away from hazing rituals (good job guys!). Wikipedia is an excellent source for information, however, sometimes it requires users to be able to think for themselves. Try it.

For more insights, please refer to my talk page where I have continued this explanation in detail. I like feedback to all my edits, and open for discussion. However, do not touch this article when your insight falls short of reason. D-Hell-pers 13:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I can think of many reasons why organizations are removed from their housing. These include but are not limited to: fire extinguisher disposal, general vandalism, malicious distruction of property, sexual misconduct, and other things. You, nor the other people editing this wiki, have shown what exactly occurred through proper citations.

It is even more suspicious to me when I read the previous edits. They started out biased, harsh, and without sources. Granted they have toned down, they are still based on these factors. Now you throw up a source that does not make ANY mention of why these organizations were thrown out of their house, just that they were, and try to claim that as a viable source. I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong. As much as you are complaining about them breaking the rules, you seem to have a very easy time doing it yourself.

Until a credible source is applied to this matter, I will continue to correct your additions to this page. Since they are not FULLY supported by credible sources, they are regarded as hearsay. You are saying "Well the newspaper says they were kicked out, obviously it was hazing". Collusion does not imply causation my friend. Until you find a credible source, this will continually be taken down.

Additionally, I will begin the process of dispute resolution through wikipedia.

And for the record D-Hell-pers, from your most recent post, it is obvious that you are a cool and intelligent man. This has been saved and quoted, and will be presented to wikipedia's arbitration hearing on this matter. Wikipedia is great because it is FACTUAL. Not based on personal insight, deception, and bullying. Which are exactly the kind of methods that have been used by me here. If you would like to use personal insight into a matter, please take this argument to a message board or forum, not an educational resource.

The term was used to prove a point. Let's for example change the wording then, for your 'benefit.' "....a group of really cool guys would not all be kicked out of housing, just because they were getting 'too cool' for the campus." And if you read those policies, only the person(s) responsible would be kicked, not an entire group of 24-guys. Nice of you to, also, not be able to read between the lines, or for that matter, general facts.

Again, multiple editors have tried to fill you (a person bias and most likely part of one of these two organizations) that these are not allegations, these are facts (not like your accusation of me being a bully-I am sorry some people have trouble understanding information). Both KA and PDT plead guilty to hazing. Like you, I will continue to edit and CORRECT other edits to represent the FACTUAL information provided by this great Wikipedia.D-Hell-pers 18:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Bottom line

Please consider this a final and only warning in regards to our three revert rule for all parties. I have temporarily protected the page to avoid having to block individual users - that makes dispute resolution much more difficult. I'm looking through the edit history now to familiarize myself with the dispute. Kuru ^talk 18:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

One of our core policies is verifiability. More specifically, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article." In this case, is there any source that can be verified for the contested statement? I do not see anything in the cited article regarding the cause of the subject action. Kuru ^talk 18:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Give me the night and you'll have itD-Hell-pers 18:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

D-Hell-pers, in an effort to help you with citations, I have found one regarding Phi Delta Theta. If you access the Washington College Elm's website, proceed to the March 4, 2005 edition. On page 6, there is an article dealing with the Phi Delta Theta hazing incident. I have yet to find anything on the other organization however.

Please understand that I have always simply wanted factual references to claims presented here, and then to be presented in an un-biased way. Natural22 19:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Kuru, I too found this artcile. I wrote a post on your discussion. I am currently gathering the missing artciles from the college's database ASAP. The facts will be preserved, and hopefully will not be continually editted out just because members of the fraternity do not want this publicized.D-Hell-pers 19:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It would be great to see them. Let's please keep the comments here focused on the content of the article, not on other editor's motives for making changes, though. Kuru ^talk 19:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As was posted on Kuru's talk page, I have done research into this matter. That includes reading all college articles during the time frame in question. Furthermore, I have contacted the editor-in-chief of the college newspaper. She said I was the second person today contacting her regarding this. She received an email from a suspicious hotmail account earlier today, claiming to be the administrator of wikipedia. They asked for the release of all newspapers, especially ones pertaining to Kappa Alpha Order and hazing. As she informed me, there are no, and have never been any, articles pertaining to that subject. Furthermore, all college newspapers are posted online already.

Knowing this, how can we go about preventing people from spreading unfounded biases in the future? Natural22 01:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Natural ... please refer to the following subject, for you have been mis-informed. Secondly, when did you start fighting for KAO and not PDT? Is this possibly because you are in KAO and biased to the fact that it did happen and want to cover it up? This just proves the point of which group you are part of, as well as why you are so biased to the fact. D-Hell-pers 01:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

More Proof of Hazing Found, Proving Fact

http://elm.washcoll.edu/past/076/17/76_17_2005.pdf

Please refer to the link above, page 6 of issue 17 (2005). Read Article "Letter to the Editor- Writer's Response to Reporting of Alleged Phi Delta Theta Hazing Incident" in full. Note the writer's mention of the article's previous title of article in issue 16, as well as the follow-up in 18.

Simply just ask for article 16 & 18. As shown above, article 17 refers to an article about the Phi Delta Theta hazing, and how a person's response may have been 'altered' for the articles use. Page 6 of issue 17, 2004-2005, mentions a letter to the editor "Writers response to reporting of alleged phi delta theta hazing incident." The article was called “Did the Phi Delts Revamp Their Pledge Process?" Further reading of this article, about the 5th paragraph, writer notes that her original title for the article was called "Brothers With a Conscience: Phi Delta Revamp Pledge Process." Editor's Note on 17's article even states (at the end) Please check out the NEXT issue (missing 18) for the follow-up artcile on the hazing incident.

For those who can not break this down, i'll try an upfront summed approach: issue 16 has not been placed on the online database + article 17 making mention of issue 16's article (noted above) = article exists. Issue 17 mentions a third follow-up article in Issue 18 + Missing 18 = another article exists, just not posted on database. We are just having trouble retrieving both. So, why in the world would a fraternity (kicked out of housing) need to 're-vamp' it's pledging process? Was there a problem with a fraternity's pledging process, and if so what could it be? Simple Kappa Alpha + Phi Delts HAZED their pledges, in what was referred to as a 'ritualistic' induction.

The issue posted, however, should be enough to prove, at least, that Phi Delta Theta was in trouble for hazing, coincidentally at the same time they lost their housing. Point proven. When these 2 issues can be retrieved, I am sure I'll prove the Kappa Alpha incident as well. So please Natural, if you are so "connected" ... obtain the articles and have them displayed online so we can all get over this war and prove the actually FACTS of this matterD-Hell-pers 01:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason for the probations is not explicit in any of the references provided so far. I think it's fair to call it an incident, and the article does specifically mention probation by name. I can also see the word "alleged" thrown around in there, so you need to be quite careful with your citations. As it is, I would propose: ":"When the Kappa Alphas and Phi Delta Thetas were removed from housing in Spring 2005, the fourth fraternity was established on campus, Kappa Sigma. Since this incident, both the Kappa Alphas and Phi Delta Thetas have returned to the Quad after their probation was fulfilled." As frustrating as it sounds, we cannot cite "common sense", so you'll need to keep digging for another cite, or find another way to present the material. Kuru ^talk 02:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Kuru, is there any possible way that you could contact the editor, refer to these exact articles, and somehow obtain this material online? I only ask this because the proof is there, we see the mentionings in issue 17. D-Hell-pers 02:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If nothing else, would you agree that the two groups were kicked out for "alleged" hazing (just your quote, adding what has been stated).D-Hell-pers 02:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no connection illustrated in a verifiable fashion between the hazing and the probation. There's not even a way to currently verify the hazing or even the accusation of hazing at the moment, but it looks like you could get to that with the "missing issues". Kuru ^talk 02:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not hiding information, nor do I personally know the editor. I simply corresponded with her through email. As for the page, I am happy with Kuru's suggestion "When the Kappa Alphas and Phi Delta Thetas were removed from housing in Spring 2005...[etc]". Thank you for for your time Kuru, is there anyway we can update the page with that text? Thanks again. Natural22 02:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

We can open it back up as soon as the dispute is resolved. Are there any other resources you can find, DHP? Kuru ^talk 02:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Working on it. We know of the articles, just have to find a way to get them online. I am contacting some of the people at the college to help get into contact with the editor (since Natural is fighting the inevitable, and not cooperating in aiding this article to obtain the facts). D-Hell-pers 03:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok then, is there anyway you can 'correspond' with the editor to obtein these artciles then. If you do not wish to help in obtaining these articles, then please dis-continue your 'help' in editing this article.D-Hell-pers 02:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As a member of KAO, I believe you can ask your older members what happened as well. D-Hell-pers 02:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid we will need to stick to our reliable sources policy and the original research policy, which excludes asking friends. Sorry to be such a tool about it, but it's a bit of a slippery slope. Kuru ^talk 02:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Wait, what friends are you noting? I am saying let's ask the newspaper Editor to upload the missing issues. Is this a problem?

The last msg was for Natural's personal clarification from his KAO brothers.D-Hell-pers 02:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent) Yup, sorry, I mis-read you. Yes, the editor putting he newspapers online is great. Kuru ^talk 02:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not a KAO member, and I graduated long before any of this happened. I was a friend to many greek members during my time (in the late 90s) at the college, thus my natural interest in this. I came into this picture as a third party observer, and I simply want people to play by the rules. So please stop labeling me as something I am not, and claiming I'm part of some conspiracy.

So let me reiterate: I do not know the editor of the elm, I simply corresponded with her through email. I am not a KAO member, I am simply an inquisitive alumni. And there is no conspiracy here. And also, I was watching Lost, then the news. Don't take the silence as some conspiracy confirmation.

In conclusion, unless you find a phantom article (which the editor confirmed has never existed) please abide by the terms Kuru is trying to get us to commit to (which I believe to be the most rational, and most giving to both parties). Simply state the facts. Here is what I propose

In 2005, Kappa Alpha and Phi Delta Theta were removed by from their residencies by the college administration for college policy violations. Both fraternities served a probationary period, and have been since returned to their respective housing. As a reaction to such incidents, Kappa Sigma fraternity has started a colony at Washington College.

Those are the cold hard facts. And I believe all parties would agree to that.