Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dates in Harry Potter (second nomination)

Dates in Harry Potter

This article was previously deleted at AfD. A reposted, edited version was then speedy deleted as CSD G4. A DRV consensus (very narrowly) determined the new draft was distinctive enough to warrant its own AfD. The matter is submitted for full consideration, especially of WP:SYNT issues. This is a procedural relisting, so I abstain. Xoloz 17:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The main argument to delete the article was that it constitutes an original synthesis. However, this article does not advance a position, as required by WP:SYNT. As for the idea that the article synthesises disparate facts in an original manner, I shudder to think that the simple act of ordering dates chronologically or adding or subtracting numbers, which is explicitly allowed in WP:OR, could be considered "original research". -- Black Falcon 17:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge. The important part is the information, which should exist somewhere. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - This article couldn't be more in-universe. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 18:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The link to the Manual of Style page you've provided would call for editing to present the information from an alternate perspective and not for the article's deletion. Moreover, the dozens of references of the type, "According to Rowling", "Rowling cites", "Rowling considered", and "Rowling later gave" clearly indicate that this is not written from an in-universe perspective. -- Black Falcon 18:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- In-universe writing is not a valid ground for deletion of an article. Not to mention that half the article discusses real world debate about how dates were arrived at and is not in-universe at all. Sandpiper 20:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm having a hard time coming to grips with the importance of this article. Granted, Harry Potter is an extremely successful series. However, I do not believe that merits an article about the fictional timeline that corresponds to it. My main problem is that a substantial amount of the sources for this article are from the books themselves. Why do we need an article that regurgitates information that can be found in the books? Why not just read the books? --Cyrus Andiron 18:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

comment Strongly agree with the above - the only people who are ever going to care about this will have read the book already. I can just about tolerate fancruft articles for, say, a long-running TV series where someone might not have seen every episode, or might not remember the details & hence an entry might be useful (along the lines of, "which Star Trek episode was it where Captain Kirk had to kill Joan Collins to stop the human race becoming extinct?"), but it's a reasonable guess that anyone who cares enough about Harry Potter to be looking things up here will own all six books. If this is going to be kept, it should be on Wikibooks and not here. Otherwise, why not have a similar article for every work of fiction? - iridescenti (talk to me!) 19:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would remind you that the US initial print run for the next book is 12 million copies. That is unprecedented. So the 'few' people who have read the book in english as their own deliberate choice will be around 50-100 million? Two of the HP artcles are in the top 100 accessed articles on wiki. So what are the odds that this article gets more hits than most on wiki? I would also remind you that people are creatures of habit. If someone looks up their favourite book on wiki, they may also click a few links and start reading something else. This principle has been noted by quite a few schoolteachers, trying to persuade people to read books for pleasure, and the books are now included as required reading for teaching students in the uk (I know one). The issue of exactly when things happen in the stories is important to understanding various elements of the plot. The existence of the article solves a number of potential difficulties for people maintaining other articles, because it sidesteps debate about dating on the page of individual articles, and presents the available information all in one place, here, where they can read before messing with all the dates in other articles. Sandpiper 21:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that the conceptually rather similar Narnian timeline is a featured list. Sandpiper 21:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If I were the Emperor of Wikiland, I'd happily delete the Narnian timeline as well; but the reason that won't happen is that the Narnia one's sourced and referenced to multiple independent non-trivial sources, whereas the Harry Potter one may have 163 references, but all are either to the books themselves, to fansites or to Harry Potter Lexicon - which is where this article, along with its many cousins, ought to be instead of on Wikipedia. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 22:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Cyrus Andiron. You wrote, Why do we need an article that regurgitates information that can be found in the books?. The whole principle of an encyclopedia is to regurgitate information found elsewhere. (I am not trying to be sarcastic and hope you don't take it that way; I just can't think of another way to express the idea.) The article supplements others on the Harry Potter books and provides information so that readers will not have to go to the books (which, if I'm not mistaken, comprise more than 1000 pages). -- Black Falcon 23:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(2500 pages, 3000 including forethcoming final book Sandpiper 00:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Reply to Black Falcon All right, I'm going to hit a few points here. First of all, you are defending the article without any prior knowledge, and I commend you for that. And you can support it, but without any context, you have no idea what any of the dates mean. Therefore, you could not use the page. If someone does not have any prior knowledge of Harry Potter, like you, then the dates hold no significance. The article is only intended for people with a reasonable knowledge of the plot. I believe that an encyclopedia is meant to be a comprehensive reference work that covers a wide variety of topics that are accessible to everyone. This article does not adhere to that. And you can argue that there are other articles out there (Quantum Physics) that are also not accessible. But then we're getting into a case of comparing and that is counterproductive. I would still like you to address the absence of notable, non first party sources. Also, please keep in mind AGF. I do not believe that it was necessary to comment that Iridescenti holds a bias for one side. Let's keep this civil. --Cyrus Andiron 00:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Explain, please, Cyrus? It clearly explains where the dates derive from, the noted problems with them, even touches briefly on the controversy that surrounded the timeline (with Warner Bros and the Lexicon site squabbling that each deserved the credit). And then the timeline itself explains how all the dates fit together, and the relevance of each to the plot of the novel. A reader not up to speed with the books might find it dull (but then, there are no doubt people who'd question the scintillation factor of an article on Quantum Theory, or the origins of Satan in Western thought), but not unintelligible. Nor is a lack of sources outside the novel grounds for deletion: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Sources for articles on fiction says, "In addition to the source material, there are many sources of in-depth information for writers of article on fictional subjects (although some are more reliable than others). Note that when using the fictional work itself to give plot summaries, character biographies, and the like, the work of fiction must be cited as a source. For instance, a video game article should cite the game text, but it should also cite a reliable secondary source when necessary." Does that or does that not mean that secondary sources are encouraged, but not required? Otherwise, one would expect some sort of warning. Michael Sanders 00:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that the dates like this: 1979 - the year in which Regulus Black, the brother of Sirius Black, is shown as having died on the Black Family Tree have no meaning to someone who is not familiar with the series. That makes it accessible to only a certain group of people. Also, we are not talking about plot summaries, we are talking about a collection of dates. I do not believe that the argument you suggested applies to this discussion. There is a difference between a timeline and a plot summary. I believe that this applies much more: Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. That comes directly from here. --Cyrus Andiron 00:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note 1) the phrase "wherever possible" - implying that when such are not available, primary sources may be used (provided that they are used correctly, as specified elsewhere) and 2) That is no specific ban on the use of primary sources and 3) That is not sufficient grounds for deletion. Michael Sanders 00:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We're going in circles. I've made my points above and stated my belief that the content is not suitable for an encyclopedia and cannot be attributable to reliable sources. --Cyrus Andiron 00:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Cyrus Andiron. I have no idea what any of the dates mean as long as I don't read the main Harry Potter articles (that's what I mean by "this article supplements others"). Not all articles are required to comprehensively cover everything about a topic. Otherwise what's the point of internal links and "See also" sections? Some topics are inherently more specialised and require that they be linked to more general pages (as, for instance, the pages on the Harry Potter books). Regarding Iridescenti, I did not say that he is "biased" but rather that his statements suggest (to me) that his argument is "based" in a personal opinion that the subject matter of timelines of fictional universes is not worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. This viewpoint, although it is one with which I disagree, is neither "evil" nor in any sense morally wrong. Also, I do see it is a far-fetched inference given his expressed desire to see deleted a featured article on a similar theme. I also do not think, nor did I intend to imply, that he acts in bad faith; I merely stated my impression of his comments. -- Black Falcon 02:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One other thing. You are correct to note that I support retention of "the article without any prior knowledge" of the books. Although you made no other comments on that point, I should note that I have restricted my appraisal of the article solely to whether the content presented meets Wikipedia policies and whether I feel the arguments for deletion stand up to scrutiny. -- Black Falcon 02:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Iridescenti. You wrote, the only people who are ever going to care about this will have read the book already. That is, quite simply, incorrect. I obviously care enough to participate in the DRV and this AFD, yet I have not read any of the Harry Potter books. In fact, I don't even know the titles of half of them. There's Goblin of Fire, Sorcerer's Stone, Wizard of something (I want to say Alcatraz, but I know that's wrong), and ... that's all I know. The fact that you wish to delete a ~~similar~~ better article that is a featured list suggests to me that your argument may be based in your personal dislike of the subject matter of the article rather than a problem of the article itself. -- Black Falcon 23:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Iridescenti. The Narnia article appears to have only three sources mentioned. Two appear to derive from the same person, who claims to have been given a copy of the timeline by CS Lewis. The third is an author who wrote something claiming that some works attributed posthumously to Lewis by the first author were in fact not so. There are no other coroborating sources, and the author is dead so can't be asked. Yes, the timeline was published by Hooper so is a referenceable source whether it is genuine or not, but in this case Warner bros have done the same thing, and do have the benefit of the corroboration of the living author. The Narnia article also claims that most of those dates are only traceable from the separate timeline, whereas these are largely traceable from the books themselves. Sourcing here seems to be better. Sandpiper 00:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Here is the difference. Narnia has three sources listed, all published books. The Harry Potter timeline uses the books by Rowling, the Warner Bros. timeline (corroborated with Rowling), and the Harry Potter Lexicon. The lexicon is a fan created encyclopedia. Again, who verifies that the information there is accurate. --Cyrus Andiron 01:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be Warner Bros, who published it on their DVD editions of the films, claiming it to be approved by Rowling. As you can see if you read the article (or look at one of the DVDs). Michael Sanders 01:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, but that furthers my point as well. All sources for this article go directly through Rowling. We're back at square one without any secondary sources. --Cyrus Andiron 01:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But there's nothing in the rules preventing use of primary sources. For that matter, if this goes straight to Rowling - well, how can any article in wikipedia be written? Any referencing of the voyage of the Beagle, for example, would go straight to Charles Darwin. Michael Sanders 01:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add also that "accuracy confirmed by Rowling" is not the same as "written by Rowling". That is, Rowling's approval of the sources does not make them primary sources; on the contrary, I would say it makes them doubly reliable secondary sources. -- Black Falcon 02:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(BF got in first) Erm, I was going to say that this is a work of fiction, and if Rowling, as author says that black is white in her world, well, then it is. Lexicon is a secondary source in that it confirms the derived timeline directly on the basis of the books content. Lexicon do not claim Rowling told them, rather that they deduced the information. Later Rowling confirmed they were correct, or at least authorised a similar timeline. At least we do have the input of Rowling into this, unlike the narnia case where Lewis is dead and can't comment. Rowling writes detective novels, and is on record as saying she does not lie to her readers. With regard to the three sources on the Narnia article, the last one seems to be by someone arguing that the single source of the first two is suspect. Sandpiper 02:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment relative to the Narnia comparison and discussions above: I would also point out that there is also a precedent and fairly close similarity to the article Timeline of Arda which reflects the History of Middle Earth as told by J. R. R. Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Unfinished Tales, and the general The History of Middle-Earth which constitutes some twelve volumes of texts. The histories and Middle-Earth years were presented, albeit very much in-universe, and admittedly without regard to "real calendar years" as it were. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 03:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, or transwiki somewhere more appropriate. There's really no way to source this without violating WP:SYNT, along with the in-universe concerns. Krimpet (talk/review) 20:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly what position is being advanced by the article? If anyone could say, then maybe the article could be rewritten to avoid this. So far (this is the third debate), no one has explained what position is allegedly being advanced by a synthesis of sources. Sandpiper 21:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't see that synthesis can be an argument for deletion of an entire article, in any event. It is a rule about content. If you think some of the content is a synthesis, then say what it is, and something can be done about it. Warner bros has published definitive dates eg when harry went to school. The dates have been agreed by the author. The book says eg Professor McGonagall started teaching 30 years ago on a certain page, therefore she started teaching in 1956. Is it being suggested that subtracting 30 from a current date is an impermissable synthesis? Sandpiper 21:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per comments above. Put it on a Harry Potter wiki, and leave it off here. RobJ1981 20:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As far as I'm concerned, synthesis is not a big issue. Adding and subtracting to arrive at dates is different than manipulating multiple texts to create a new point. I'll grant you the dates. I think the sticking point for this article is the fact that it has not been covered by notable, non trivial sources. Right now, most of the 163 sources are from the Harry Potter books themselves or other publications by Rowling. That is my biggest issue. And, as mentioned by Iridescenti, that is what separates it from the Narnian timeline. --Cyrus Andiron 22:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Except that the Narnia article states that the only source for the timeline is a copy given by the author to one Walter Hooper, who wrote it up. Thus it essentially derives from the word of the said Mr Hooper, which the article also says has been brought into question with regard to other material he claims was from Lewis, who was once his employer. This information has been published by Warner bros, checked by Rowling, and is also verifiable independantly to a significant extent from the works themselves. Sandpiper 01:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In defense of the Narnian timeline, despite the validity of Hooper sometimes being called into question, the dates have been used in a number of scholarly works on Narnia since (see the five books at the end of the article). Naturally, with the HP series not over yet, though, there is still time for its timeline to be incorporated into other print material. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 03:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - the article is well sourced, using both primary and secondary sources, violates no wikipedia rules, and is important, if not essential, to the encyclopaedia reader in understanding the subject. Michael Sanders 23:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or transwiki to an appropriate Harry Potter fan wiki. This is unattributable to non-first-party sources (which I mentioned on the DRV), and is written from an in-universe perspective. --Core desat 23:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First party sources are allowed to be used in the articles themselves, particularly articles regarding works of fiction. Would you like to specify how it uses in-universe perspective? Michael Sanders 23:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment. I wish to make three points.

This article is not written from an in-universe perspective. An article written from an in-universe perspective would not contain statement such as: "The timeline itself contains flaws", "Rowling later gave further confirmation", "Rowling has specified", "According to Rowling", or any reference to anything that does not exist solely in the Harry Potter fictional universe.
"Primary source" does not automatically equate with "unreliable" (I presume that's what you meant to imply by linking to WP:RS). In fact, per WP:RS, Three classes of sources exist, each of which can be used within Wikipedia: and primary sources are one of the three types. The only restriction on primary sources is that they should be used "with care".
As my knowledge of the Harry Potter series is extremely limited, I will do no more than note that claim that all of the sources are primary was challenged in the DRV. -- Black Falcon 23:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The history is that HP-Lexicon created a timeline based upon information contained in the books, and some additional statements by Rowling. Warner subsequently published another timeline without officially stating its source, but effectively endorsing its accuracy as the creators of the films. This timeline is included on DVDs of the films, if you play them in a computer. Lexicon claim that Warner used their timeline, and back this claim by stating that a 'mistake' in their timeline was reproduced exactly on the DVD. This claim is posted here [1]. That page also goes through the arguments used to determine dates. There are a number of other pages, including this [2], if you want to see a really big list of dates. Some dates are not from the books, but from separate statements by Rowling published on her website and (I understand) on authorised trading card games. It should also be noted that Rowling has recommended a few fansites to anyone interested in more information about her works, including HP-Lexicon. She said that she uses it herself to check facts, see her website comment here[3]. I make it therefore that HP-Lexicon is a good secondary source of information, being endorsed by the author herself. Warner is either a second primary source, or a secondary source, depending on how you interpret their information. Since the information is fact-checked by the author to conform to her series of books, I take it to be another reputable secondary source. Sandpiper 00:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's my belief that a secondary source should not have input from the author of the primary source. The entire point of a secondary sources is that it can offer analysis or information without being influenced by the suggestions or demands of the primary source. Secondary sources are meant to be analytical; a take on the primary source of information. --Cyrus Andiron 12:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: please note, from WP:AFD: "Remember that while AfD may look like a voting process, it does not operate like one. Justification and evidence for a response carries far more weight than the response itself."..."The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments."..."Arguments commonly used to recommend deletion are: "unverifiable" (violates WP:V), "original research" (violates WP:NOR), and "non-notable" in cases where the subject does not meet their respective notability criteria. (In the cases of non-notable biographical articles, it is better to say "does not meet WP:BIO" to avoid insulting the subject.) The accusation "VANITY" should be avoided, and is not in itself a reason for deletion. The argument "non-neutral point of view" (violates WP:NPOV) is often used, but often such articles can be salvaged, so this is not a very strong reason for deletion either." Simply saying 'I don't like it' is not sufficient, nor is a simple vote in favour or against. Michael Sanders 00:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. Apparently I'm seeing the use of this as orientation to the series more than I'm seeing problems with its genesis. Only if this can find a better home on HPL does it make sense (to me) to get rid of it. Can a redirect for "Dates in Harry Potter" point to an HPL page? Shenme 02:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The main arguments for deleting seem to center upon the (non)notability of the timeline, questioning the need to have a timeline, a sense that the article constitutes original research, and/or synthesis. We have no actual examples of this claim from those making them, just the claim itself, and then no valid refutation upon numerous challenges. Rather than re-address the same arguments (how can it be OR of "we" did not invent the timeline?), an effort is underway to rewrite the article to more closely represent the facts of the matter. For example, the original opening stated that Harry Potter fans have created a timeline for the Harry Potter series, based on three shreds of information provided by author.... I am convinced that this led many to the conclusion on non-notability - after all who cares what a lot o' duffing Harry Potter fanatics might come up with in their imaginations when they should be outside playing football or something. "Created a timeline" suggested these crazy folks made it up out of thin air - thus original research. "For the HP series..." carried a tone that "we" (or they the fans) were doing this effort as a favor to assist Rowling and the world - suggesting 'cruft. The fact that the detailed dates presented were derived from "three shreds of information" strongly suggested a lot of synthesis from less than solid information. None of these are actually the case. The timeline has been documented by Warner Bros., with or without the assistance of the Harry Potter Lexicon fan site, and reviewed and approved by Rowling, therefore it is notable, traceable, verifiable, and therefore allowable. The Introduction has now been changed to reflect the fact of the matter: The Chronology is a general timeline of events derived from information provided in the series of Harry Potter novels written by J.K. Rowling, along with additional materials posted on her web site and published in various interviews. The introduction goes on to discuss the Warner Bros and Lexicon sources for the material. This new version should clarify for most reviewers the pedigree of the materials. Please note that this was a problem of the quality of the description of the source materials, a matter of wordsmithing, and not a general problem of notability, original research, or synthesis in order to make an argument or something, as alleged by many in favor of deletion on those grounds. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 03:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This new version of the article is far better than the old one. Not in-universe, and there's a tie-in to the real world at Chronology of the Harry Potter stories#Contradictions. Not NN, obviously. And definitely not OR, as this is material previously published and, on top of that, verified as in accordance with the series by the author herself. Thus the article is worthy of keeping. It needs a bit of copyediting, but the content has now been verified as relevant (in the whole new lead), so there shouldn't be a reason to delete. Though may I suggest a move to Chronology in Harry Potter or the like; the current title sounds like it would be something like "1997 – first book published; 1998 – second book published" etc. (a publishing history). --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 03:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. First, I hate it when a DRV is done without notifying the person(s) who tagged the article for deletion (speedy in this case), so that they too can present their rationale for doing so. Secondly, there were some rather incorrect statements in the deletion review, like the argument that it was deleted because it was OR (which was only one of the arguments, WP:NOT being the most important), or arguments like "First of all, primary sources in this case are Rowling's original writing, not the novels based on that writing. " This has to be a new one: the manuscript is the primary source, when it is printed, it becomes a secondary source? I don't think so... Anyway, on to the current article: it has two parts, a timeline (i.e. a plot summary, but in a less useful form for those who haven't read the books and thus most need a plot summary: so a good canidate to get rid off under WP:NOT), and a discussion of the timeline and how it was compiled. This shifts the discussion to another question: is the timeline in any way notable? It has been published, yes, but it hasn't been the subject of any reliable secondary sources. While there have been many, many reviews of the Harry Potter books, their success, the authors, the movies, the actors, ..., I don't think there has been any review, criticism, or other reliable independent secondary source about this timeline (as the article states, it is commonly used by the fandom, and I don't think that the Harry Potter Lexicon can be considered a reliable source in the Wikipedia sense). So there are two problems now: Wikipedia doesn't want the timeline itself as an article (for WP:NOT and similar guidemine arguments like WP:WAF), and it doesn't want an article about the timeline (as there are no secondary sources about it). The best solution is to delete this article, and add a link to the timeline as an external link to the main Harry Potter pages. Fram 07:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree that notability is definitely one of the main problems. Specifically: A notable topic that has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works that are reliable and independent of the subject. Right now, there are not any independent published works that support the notability of the timeline. We have the books, the lexicon, Rowling's Timeline and the Warner Bros. timeline. All of these are related and come through one person: Rowling. There are no other published sources that could confirm, deny, or comment on any of the information in this article. I also have a problem with the word derived, which appears in the first sentence of the article. Basically, that means to to trace from a source or origin. To me that sounds like unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material, which is stricly forbidden by OR. --Cyrus Andiron 12:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the Comment: The Synthesis of Published Material claim above applies to "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position". Everyone seems to be leaving this last part out, and stating that Synthesis of information in general is somehow bad and forbidden. Everything in the Wikipedia is synthesis - information gathered and combined together from multiple sources. This is not the intent of the ban. The ban is on making an argument and advancing a position by synthesizing materials. The example is: We believe C. Source 1 says "A" and Source 2 says "B", and A and B together may imply C, therefore we have "C", QED. An absurd example: Mary bought some canned catfood at the local store, according to her grocer. Her neighbor said Mary's cat died last month. Therefore Mary must be eating catfood, because she cannot afford human food. It may be true as theories go, but it is disallowed as synthesizing a novel position that Mary eats cat food, based on circumstantial, not direct "evidence". That is what the Synthesis position on Original Research is all about. Nobody is attempting to advance a Position C here, so "Synthesis OR" arument does not apply. In addition, the question of the word "derived": As stated in the article, the derivation was done by the Lexicon and/or Warner Bros., not the wiki editors who assembled the article. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 16:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Black Falcon. The Potter book series is without recent precedent in its impact, and a timeline is a useful adjunct as an alternative to re-reading 3000 pages of novels to clarify a detail. Such a massive body of fiction is well served by articles such as this. The timeline is an NPOV article not seeking to advance some controversial point of view by synthesis. The editing process can delete any minor characters' dates which the article's editors consider unencyclopedic. As an example of why this article should be kept, I had wondered how old Dumbledore was supposed to be. This article gives an age/birthdate, and cites it to a published transcript of an interview with Rowling. Thanks, Wikipedia! Things merely cited to a fansite like the Lexicon could be deleted unless the sources used in the Lexicon can be confirmed, and then the dates could be cited to their original sources if those satisfy WP:ATT. Edison 14:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you wonder how old Dumbledore is, you can find that in the article Albus Dumbledore, where his birthyear is given as 1845, with a source. SO why would you come and look for it in the "Dates in Harry Potter" article? If there is a decent source (like an interview with the author) for the supposed age of a major character, then it is failry logical that that info is added in the article about that subject, who is on his own notable. However, to compile (or reproduce) a list of such dates on its own is still rather useless. Fram 14:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of exactly when certain things happened compared to each other is important to the plot. The main comparison is between Harry's generation at school, and his parents generation. However, the principle villain was at the same school, interacting with roughly harry's grandparents generation. Keeping all this lot straight (who knew who) is a lot easier if you can see it in a timeline. This is a detective novel, though this sometimes seems to be overlooked. Something which greatly interests readers is sorting out the clues in the text left by Rowling. Rather than drawing up their own list, it is presented here. But the issue is really that after reading Dumbledore's dates in his article it is then possible to click the date link to this article, and obtain further information about dates, their derivation, who were contemporaries, etc. It is rather foolish to rewrite all this in every article. That is why we have links, so people can click one and see more detailed information on a particular topic. One specific reason for the existence of articles like this is that the information is relevant to many articles. Sandpiper 18:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the books, and fail to see how this timeline helps me in any way, or what info related to e.g. Dumbledores age should be included in the Dumbledore article which isn't there already. Rewriting this list in every article is a fine example of a strawman: this would indeed be foolish, as it would serve no purpose. I fail to see any use for this article in an encyclopedic and already rather thorough dissection of Harry Potter. It's available on the web and on DVD's for those interested: what is gained by repeating it here? The timeline is a useless piece of plot summary which hasn't received any critical comments from reliable sources, making the first half of the article lacking in reliable secondary sources establishing notability (for the timeline, obviously not for Harry Potter). Fram 19:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"I fail to see any use for this article in an encyclopedic and already rather thorough dissection of Harry Potter. It's available on the web and on DVD's for those interested: what is gained by repeating it here? " That seems to be a pretty stupid point: what is the point of wikipedia, or, indeed, any encyclopaedia at all, by that logic? Why should we have an article on the second world war - there are plenty of thorough dissections out there, aren't there? A reader can go to library and read about quantum theory, can look in the newspapers to see how climate change is doing, can grab a biography of Kennedy - so why read a garbled version of any of those things here, where it will have been badly typed up and misunderstood by some kid/professor/whatever at a computer? The point of wikipedia is to be a thorough resource on everything, provided that it can be properly sourced and verified, and provided it is notable enough. This article is properly sourced and verified. It is an article on an extraordinarily successful and popular series of books, which is pretty integral to an understanding of the series, and to understanding how all the dates fit together. Michael Sanders 21:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments so far:
- "In-universe" - please specify how the article is 'in-universe'; furthermore, in-universe is not sufficient grounds for deletion. This has been repeated several times by those in favour of deletion; not one of those has explained their reasoning.
- "Non-notable" - the article addresses the events occurring in the novels, the real-world issues surrounding it, and even the problems (possibly even legal struggles) surrounding the origins of the timeline referred to by the article.
- "Delete, or transwiki somewhere more appropriate. There's really no way to source this without violating WP:SYNT, along with the in-universe concerns. Krimpet (talk/review) 20:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)" - doesn't seem to be any relevant point there, since it is already sourced.
- "Delete per comments above. Put it on a Harry Potter wiki, and leave it off here. RobJ1981 20:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)" - unspecified, appears "I don't like it" rather than deletion-appropriate objection
- "Delete or transwiki to an appropriate Harry Potter fan wiki. This is unattributable to non-first-party sources (which I mentioned on the DRV), and is written from an in-universe perspective. --Coredesat 23:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)" - not a valid argument - first-party sources are allowed, an article making heavy use of 1st party sources is not liable to deletion. Please point out the in-universe perspective.
- "WP:NOT" - please explain how that applies here. Wikipedia is not a collector of indiscriminate information; this is not indiscriminate information (see any reference to what Harry had for breakfast on the first day after the full moon of the second month of the ascending House of Aquarius whilst Dumbledore was wearing a mohican?)

Please explain how these arguments, several of which don't appear to be relevant to deletion, apply here. Michael Sanders 21:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also remind everyone that "The deletion process is really a discussion. Wikipedia has particular standards for deletion and editors explain why they believe certain rules apply. Some of those desiring deletion are not adequately explaining why they believe it fits criteria for deletion: see Always explain your reasoning..."Votes" without rationales may be discounted at the discretion of the closing admin. In addition, this article conforms to Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Reasons for deletion Michael Sanders 23:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. People may by now have gathered my view in this argument, but for the record it is keep. This is not because I write HP articles. I have voted against some in the past. It is because this article both contains information of interest to people who like the books, and is useful as part of the overall coverage of the subject on wiki. I was just talking to someone today, who happens to be a head librarian in a medical library. Her business is sourcing information. I explained this debate, and she was amazed. She could not understand why people on wikipedia could be so against inclusion of articles on popular culture. Wiki is supposed to be the encyclopedia for everyone, by everyone, about everything. So what is wrong with properly covering a subject of such interest to millions? Many arguments have been proposed suggesting reasons to delete this article. All have been answered. The simple fact that just about every rule in the book has been suggested to argue for its deletion suggests to me that there is nothing really wrong with it. If there was, people would agree with each other instead of brainstorming suggestions that might possibly fit the bill. Perhaps people should just accept that in order for wiki to be what it sets out to be, it needs to have articles like this. How is it that people have lost sight of one of the most obviously important rules, wiki is not paper, and are bound and determined to turn the encyclopedia for everyone into the encyclopedia for the ivory tower isolationist. What wiki absolutely does not need to do is become more high-brow than it already is. I have nothing against adding as much analysis and real world explanation to fiction articles as is useful and possible. However, absence of such material should never count against the remainder of any article, which were such material to be added, would then pass muster as a respectable article. The encyclopedia needs to retain the best possible coverage of all aspects of popular culture. You do want people interested in popular culture to start reading a reference source which has other, perhaps more useful, content as well, don't you? Do you really want them to sit all day reading Mugglenet instead of wiki? If you do, then perhaps you should not be contributing here. Sandpiper 22:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Sandpiper - I - and the others arguing delete - are neither anti-Harry Potter fanatics, nor ivory-tower intellectuals not wanting to see Wikipedia polluted with low culture (at least, I hope the others aren't). However, I believe that while an article about a work of fiction or major fictional character is generally acceptable, and an article about a particular object/concept of significance within that work of fiction can be acceptable (eg TIE fighter, Horcrux, Charn), there is a qualitative difference between these and this type of article; whilst the former are genuinely useful towards explaining concepts used within a culturally significant work which may be used in a wider context or in discussion of the work to people who may not have read/seen or may not remember the work, the latter is a self-referential type of article which pretty much by definition is not going to be of interest or use to people other than the most diehard fans. To use the example used elsewhere in this AfD, I can picture someone looking up Quantum Mechanics wanting to find out more about the subject; I can even picture someone looking up Blood purity having come across the term and wanting to know more about it; I cannot picture anyone outside the Harry Potter community looking up this article, and consequently feel it would be better suited to either a Harry Potter site or to Wikibooks. And (while I realise it ain't gonna happen), I would say the same about Narnian Timeline, Star Wars Timeline etc, and in any event your argument regarding the Narnia list above is just a very long way of saying WP:WAX. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 23:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But that's not a valid argument for deletion. You say only those who have read Harry Potter will be able to understand it. Leaving the questionable nature of that statement aside: how many people have read Harry Potter? A hundred? A thousand? A million? Ten million? More? Certainly, enough people have read it to make it a relevant article to wikipedia readers - more so than an article on quantum mechanics (that's populism for you). This article is "qualitatively useful" to those who wish to understand how the events in Rowling's novels, and the backstory she created for those novels, falls together. It conforms to wikipedia rules. It is intelligible to those who have read the novels (and, I would contend, those who haven't). It gives the background information about the issue. It is not 'self-referential', if by that you mean it quotes information verbatim from the books - it also uses information from the comic relief books, Rowling's interviews, her website, much of which is, or may be, hard for 'the average reader' (whom we all serve at wikipedia) to locate. The timeline and the information surrounding it both serve those purposes. As for having it here - why have anything here? But we do, because if we can source it and verify it and satisfy notability (all done here), we can control it, and ensure it remains encyclopaedic. That's why we write about history, or politics, or sciences, or books, or tv shows, or the hundreds of other things on wikipedia. To ensure that we are as thorough and as comprehensive as possible. Michael Sanders 00:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is notability satisfied? I haven't seen any reliable secondary sources discussing this timeline. Harry Potter is extremely notable, but that does not automatically make this timeline notable (and popularity among fans is not notability for Wikipedia). 05:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)