Talk:CounterPunch

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bobfrombrockley (talk | contribs) at 11:29, 27 April 2007 (→‎Holocaust Denial). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pol pot

just out of curiosity... where is the page debating the factuality of Pol Pot's killings or the page defending milosivic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.140.106.182 (talk • contribs)

These are some of the main ones, however, there are at least a dozen more. Large list located here, though not all of them defend Milosovic so much as deny that there was genocide occuring:

Diana Johnstone is a contributor to one of these articles and has written a book which feverishly argues that genocide in the Balkans was propaganda and that Muslim families who have missing fathers or brothers are "liars". See:


thanks... and pol pot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.140.106.182 (talk • contribs)

"Junk Science"

The current construction of that sentence, "It is noted for its highly critical coverage of [..], its extensive reporting of [...] and the use of junk science" makes it unclear whether they report on junk science or utilize it. Can someone clarify this? I am going to remove it until it is clarified.--Tedpennings 4 July 2005 11:27 (UTC)


Recently I have read several articles about 911 - Manuel Garcia et al on Counterpunch. The articles, amusingly, are junk science in favor of the government's 911 story. For some reason Cockburn is ablaze about 911, somehow feeling that it is diverting attention from corrupt building inspectors, etc - quite rabid/enthused. I have heard the Garcia articles were even commissioned - true?? Garcia is up against too much to even have flights of anti-conspiracy conpriacy stuff work, but he is entertaining. Anyone know why Cokburn is hot in this direction?

Because it's claptrap. RubyQ 01:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

consolidation of criticism section

This recently added material criticism section appears to have been the effort of one editor, David Cohen, to inject his personal disapproval of CounterPunch by means of a pseudo-neutral "Criticism" section that offered a cherry-picked selection of quotes from right-wing critics. I have removed it, consolidating the names of the critics and types of complaints they make in the body of the article, where this material belongs. If readers are interested in the particulars of the given critiques, they can follow up the external links. -- Viajero | Talk 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Viajero, I don't have anything against CounterPunch. But I have done some editing on this page, and yes, I originally added the criticism section (because CounterPunch has indeed been criticized, and the article seemed incomplete). It's not "cherry-picked," though, and it's not slanted--CounterPunch has published each of the positions listed, and isn't, to my knowledge, backing away from them. (It's "muckraking with a radical attitude," not tepid mainstream media reporting.) And every specific position was cited to a CounterPunch article--which is the part you cut. Are you removing them because you don't like those positions? Sorry, but that's why they're in the "Criticism" section. And per Wikipedia policy, criticism should be consolidated into one section: as the NPOV policy states, "refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section." That said, I like your new paragraph better than the old one (with the exception of your addition of scare quotes), so while I'm going to put the specific bits back, I'm not going to remove your contribution. That's the beauty of Wikipedia: lots of people make it better. --David Cohen 10:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A given publication's motto/slogan/mission statement cannot be taken as the final word. "Fair and balanced"? "All the news that's fit to print"? Enough said. At best these are naive exhortations; at worst, marketing slogans. However it positions itself, CP publishes in fact a broad spectrum of opinion, as is indicated in the article, from discussions of civil liberty issues which would not be out of place in old-stream conservative or libertarian forums, to speeches of Fidel Castro. Cockburn himself enjoys a reputation as a firebrand, yet recently downplayed the Hubble Curve, a decidely reactionary POV. St Clair writes mostly about environmentalism, and given that polls show, IIRC, that a good 60% of Americans are in favor of stricter environmental protections, his ideas are not so out of line with the mainstream, only Beltway politics.
Inclusion of the quotes you cite fosters the impression that CP is a forum for anti-Semitic ideas. As someone who has subscribed to the newsletter since it was launched in the mid 1990s, read various of Cockburn's books, and been a regular visitor to the website since it was launched in 1999, I assure you that this is a profoundly inaccurate characterization. Anti-semitism is a serious charge, and you better come up with way more substantial evidence than this; evidence that conclusively demonstrates that across the thousands of essays by hundreds of writers they publish every year Cockburn and St Clair systematically endorse anti-Semitic ideas. A couple of chrry-picked citations by blatantly ideological opponents simply doesn't cut the grade. Viajero | Talk 18:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the fact that you're a devoted reader and ardent defender of CounterPunch, Viajero, but you missed my point entirely.
  1. Per Wikipedia's NPOV Policy, criticism belongs in a separate section. We treat the opinions of opponents with the same deference we give to the subject of the article.
  2. The proper response to the fact CounterPunch has been criticized is to face it and reply to it, not to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there by deleting citations from Wikipedia. That's called Information Suppression and it violates Wikipedia's NPOV Policy. Cutting facts from an article does a serious disservice to Wikipedia's readers.
  3. Re: your first para: You are responding to a straw man, expending a whole paragraph on a parenthetical about the publication's motto. Sure, CounterPunch publishes a variety of opinions, some mainstream and some extreme. The article says so; the criticism doesn't contradict it. The cited critics have simply taken issue with a few of the things CounterPunch has published. That's fair.
  4. Re: your second para: I didn't accuse anyone of anti-Semitism. Nor did I mischaracterize the critics or imply that CounterPunch is systematically anti-Semitic, as you argue above (another straw man). And citing CounterPunch articles the critics complain about isn't "cherry-picking"; this isn't making any broader generalizations about CounterPunch. Citing sources is key to Verifiability, another fundamental Wikipedia Policy. The critics are properly, neutrally attributed.
  5. If you think the criticized positions aren't representative of CounterPunch, then someone else has probably published a reply to the critics, and you can certainly cite them and their counter-arguments here. Add information to Wikipedia rather than removing things you don't like.
To sum up: Don't delete well-cited, neutrally-presented criticism just because you want the article to reflect only your POV. --David Cohen 20:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am neither a "devoted reader" nor an "ardent defender" of CounterPunch; I only claim familiarity with it. Also, you don't have to quote NPOV gospel to me; I have been contributing to Wikipedia since 2003 and I am intimately aware of how NPOV works.

If I were to scour the Internet, I could probably come up with quotes which argue that CP is:

  • anti-Democratic Party
  • pro-Democratic Party
  • anti-Republican Party
  • anti-George Bush
  • pro-Green Party
  • anti-Green Party
  • pro-Ralph Nader
  • anti-Ralph Nader
  • pro-Al Gore
  • anti-Al Gore
  • anti-Bill Clinton
  • anti-Hillary
  • anti-Michael Moore
  • pro-Michael Moore
  • anti-union
  • pro-labor
  • anti-PETA
  • pro-PETA
  • pro-vegetarian
  • pro-meat-eating
  • anti-war
  • anti-pacifist

etc etc etc etc

Now, if you think it would be a service to our readers to flood this article with all of these POVs, turning it into a vast, ungainly collection of back-and-forth quotes, then you have no conception of what it means to create an encyclopedia article. This is not a repository for undigested primary materials; we are supposed to be creating useful, reader-friendly syntheses of information and viewpoints. If there exists a significant wedge of public opinion that CounterPoint lends itself to being a forum for anti-Semitic ideas, then by all means this should be included in this article, backed up by citations indicating that observers have determined that this is a systematic problem, either with the editors themselves or the writers they publish. In the meantime, dumping a bunch of quotes which happen to suit your POV in this article and hiding behind Wikipedia NPOV philosphy for justification is unacceptable. Viajero | Talk 10:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I NPOV'd some of this. I also removed the Foer link, as all it was was advertisements.
Counterpunch covers many issues, and Viajero was quite correct to remove the half of the article that deals with Counterpunch's supposed anti-Semitism. You simply can not take up half the article on this simply because you have an axe to grind with CP because it points out that Israelis are "aliens in another people's land". Ruy Lopez 04:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some recent criticism of the newsletter a bit higher in the article. The article otherwise just "flicks" at the criticism toward the bottom. --Mantanmoreland 02:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

removed this confusing sentence

I removed this confusing sentence:

While offering much more material not published in the newsletter, the latter continues to publish commentaries by St. Clair and Cockburn that are not published on the web.

Please rewrite it if it is readded to the site.Travb (talk) 06:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The memory hole

The following has been removed from this wikipage:

==Criticism==

Plaut takes issue with several CounterPunch articles:

  • Cockburn (in an essay about Jewish control of the media) surmised that a Jew spread anthrax in the U.S., and that Israel pushed the U.S. into war with Iraq; [1]
  • St. Clair (while praising a novel that envisions a Palestinian state replacing Israel) called Israelis "aliens in another people's land" and claimed that Israel teaches its children "the same enthusiasm" for death "as a suicide bomber from Hamas";[2]
  • Gilad Atzmon endorsed arming Islamic militants so that they can "endanger our existence" in order to win their political goals;[3]
  • Kurt Nimmo (who no longer writes for CounterPunch), in a 2005 article lauding Ward Churchill and his views on the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, expressed doubt "if indeed Osama had anything to do with those planes", described the attacks as "nothing personal", and claimed that they were a "natural . . . reaction" because "Zionist settlers . . . seem to actually like murdering Palestinian school children.";[4] and
  • Amiri Baraka both contended that Israel knew about the 9/11 attacks ahead of time and got Israelis out of the World Trade Center, and maintained that Israel and its "Zionist lobbies control American foreign politics."[5] [6]

In contrast to such allegations, CounterPunch has also published articles such as David Vest's criticism of Billy Graham's remarks about Jews[7] after White House tapes revealed Graham expressing "the rankest, crudest, most heart-sickening anti-Semitism" when counseling President Nixon; and Michael Neumann's essay tracing the history of the U.S.-Israel relationship and debunking the myth that Jews control America.[8] (Although Neumann argues that Jews have power in Hollywood and much influence in American political life, and then urges Americans to resist "Jewish tribalism" and act to "hurt Israel" by declaring it a rogue nation and severing all military, financial and diplomatic ties).

signed: Travb (talk) 07:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed two sites

Are both broken. Travb (talk) 02:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"allegedly anti-Semitic"?

The article The Case for Israel describes Counterpunch as "allegedly anti-Semitic":

"Far-left (and allegedly anti-Semitic) newsletter publication, Counterpunch published The Case Against Israel, a response to The Case for Israel[3] by Michael Neumann, a professor of philosophy at Trent University. The response-book was not as commercially succesful as the original."

Is this true? There is no citation in that article for the claim. --64.230.120.63 19:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Alexander Cockburn for more info. Alan Dershowitz has used that epithet in relation to Counterpunch. -Will Beback · † · 21:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Biased Paragraph

First off whoever you are that keeps insisting on putting in the extended paragraph after the anti-semitism allegations, it is you who is pov pushing, not me. The accusations of antisemitism are already there so your attempts to add more serves as nothing more than an extremely transparent attempt to biased the article against counterpunch. Oh, and by the I quotes like "anti-semitic, neo-nazi Rascists" should bar you from any further serious commentary on this article. This is not a place to work your own grievances against counterpunch, unless you have some factual information to contribute to this article, you are out of line in saying I should be banned from this article. I am registered user and have been for longer than you and if anything your the one who should be banned from this article, not me. annoynmous 20:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The passage you object to concerns Gilad Atzmon, whose article's on the Counterpunch website have garnered much criticism. It is therefore just for it to be included in a section called 'Criticism'. Philip Cross 20:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protected pending consensus

Due to a recent revert war I've protected this page. The disputing parties should come to some agreement on acceptable text. -Will Beback · † · 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that allegations about CounterPunch's publication of anti-semitic material is perfectly appropriate to this article, in a criticisms section. CounterPunch publish Gilad Atzmon and defences of him, even though much of the rest of the left see Atzmon as an anti-semite for his statements on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion etc. It needs to be made clear that this is a contentious issue (i.e. clearly the article shouldn't say that CounterPunch is antisemitic, but that it has been described as such).
Also, the protected version is the version without the italics for publications, which were removed by reverters removing the Atzmon material. These need to go back into italics whatever the consensus on the hotter topics. BobFromBrockley 10:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the article should mention the criticism; which I did with my brief para on the complaint by anti-Zionist Jews. The longer paragraph was too long in the context of this brief article (nearly a quarter of the whole article). Nor is it referenced. As it currently stands, the article contains brief, documented, references to complaints by critics both from left and right; it would be a mistake to expand this any further. RolandR 14:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think that any criticism of Atzmon should be on his page, not on counterpunch's. However, I respect RolandR's judgement and he and I came to a compromise that he would write a more neutral criticism. Unfortunately, the unkown editor who originally added the paragraph will have none of this and insists in having his own highly slanted version of events in the article. His stated goal, readily apparent from the tone of his writing and his calling me a Nazi apologist, is not to make a legitimate point. He hates counterpunch and wants to defame them by biasing the article against them. RolandR I feel has come up with a very satisfactory compromise and if the unkown user won't listen to reason and keeps reverting his changes I think he should be banned from this article. I don't like banning anybody, but unless he's willing to compromise I fear there may be no other way.annoynmous 15:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The para was written as a criticism of the articles as published by Counterpunch, not of the writers themselves, which is why I reverted your later amendment to the article. There is no suggestion in the linked references that Atzmon is a priori excluded from writing for Counterpunch; the argument is that Counterpunch should not include articles expressing these views. I agree with annoynmous's complaint about the anonymous editor who seems bent on distorting the article, without even discussing it. And his/her personal attack on annoynmous in an edit summary is at the very least bad practice. See Help:Edit summary, which notes: "Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved. Instead, place such comments, if required on the talk page". I have warned him/her against repeating this. RolandR 22:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my "discussion" of it: The paragraph that I inserted was all about direct quotations from articles that were published in Counterpunch, not simply a point about Atzmon - and the even more explicit anti-semite Israel Shamir, whose Nazi politics are by now undeniable, and who has also contributed articles to Counterpunch. This is not "defamation" but simple documentable FACTS. So too is the fact that Counterpunch's newsletter chose to publish an article in support of holocaust denier Ernest Zundel by Alan Cabal which defends not merely Zundel's "free speech" but his views themselves (which Cabal has also done on many other websites). I feel that the comments of "annoynmous" as well as the constant "reverts" to my easily documentable quotes reveal his/her own PRO-Counterpunch bias and desire to silence any criticism of the journal (most evident in the call to "ban" me). I will in future confine my criticisms of this editor to the discussion page.

You didn't provide any sources or links to confirm anything in your paragraph. The conclusion that Atzmon and Shamir are rascist Nazi anti-semites is your opinion and is not verifiable by facts. Your paragraph consisited of a long ad hominem attack on counterpunch. I don't understand why the criticism section in which it says that counterpunch is accused of anti-semitism isn't enough. Mention the accusations in a neutral manner and let the reader investigate further and then come to there own conclusions. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp. Your paragraph was POV pushing, plain and simple. You wanted to make counterpunch look bad because you don't like it that they criticize Israel. I'd wager that everyone from Noam Chomsky to Norman Finkelstein is an anti-semite in your book. The only reason I accepted any of this at all was because RolandR beleives that there is some legitimate criticism here and I respect his judgment. I happen to think he is wrong about Atzmon, but I accept that he is a controversial figure. As for this Ernest Zundel nonsense, for someone who constantly likes to proclaim things as fact you sure are skimp on providing any actual links or sources to back up what you say. RolandR's paragraph has actual evidence to back it up. RolandR was very gracious and kind enough to act as a mediator and try to come up with a mutual compromise. Well, you obviously would have none of that and decided it was either your way or no way. I'm sorry if my tone sounds really angry, but I get pissed off when I get called a Nazi apologist for reverting a crazily written POV paragraph with no evidence to support it. I think RolandR constructed a very fine version of your criticism and that you should respect what he's written.annoynmous 22:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anonynmous is knowingly LYING about what I have posted: I mentioned the title of the pro-Zundel article and its author, as well as the fact that it appeared only in Counterpunch's print edition, not online (hence "no links"). But Zundel's wife has helpfully reposted the entire article, along with her apprecation of counterpunch for publishing it, on her Fascist website the Zundelsite: http://zgrams.zundelsite.org/pipermail/zgrams/2004-March/000779.html.

And of course, I quoted extensively from several Atzmon Counterpunch articles which are also available on Atzmon's website. Is "annoynmous" really claiming that I just made this all up? So an apology to me for all of his/her libels is long overdue. If it does not appear, it may well be appropriate to remove "annoynmous"'s editing privileges.

Oh My! a reposting from some nutjob blogger who says counterpunch posted and article in there print edition that we convientently can't see at Counterpunch! I shudder and shake at such earthshattering evidence! Is this guy serious? You expect us to believe that Alan Cabal actually wrote this based on what someone said on there blog. I'm curious as to why you didn't post this link originally in your article when you first wrote your paragraph. I tell you why because it would be utterly laughable and ridiculous to include such a dubious source. Sense you probably don't read the print edition of counterpunch I bet this is the only source you have that this "supposed" article even exists. I bet that this blog is where you originally got the information and in your delusional state you actually believed it. Even if this article was actually written by Cabal the tone of it hardly amounts to an endorsment of Zundel's views, just that his freedom of speech should be defended. You are a rude, crass, fanatic and I've just about had it with you. Theres no way in hell I'm ever apologizing to you. RolandR, Will Beback I'm sorry about my tone, but I literally can't stand this guy anymore. In my opinion he is a vandal of the worst kind who should be permantely banned from this article. He refuses to compromise and to come to a settlement that we can all agree with. I think the article should be left as it is with RolandR's edits and that if the unkown user continually fails to listen to reason than he should be discplined.
Oh! and for your information I happen to believe that Nazi holcaust did happen and that between 5 to 6 million jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals and others were killed. So I still think I'm owed an apology for the Nazi apologist comment, but I'm not holding my breath.annoynmous 05:39, February 8 2007 (UTC)

You have slandered me, anonymouse, as a liar: If I knew your real name, I would sue you for libel -and I would WIN! The Alan Cabal article absolutely DOES exist - and he has never denied writing it. In fact, he has continued to champion Zundel on many other websites and made clear his support for Zundel's views. Time only permits me to post these links (among many others) that attest to the original article's existence (If you demand, I will come back later and post some updates on Cabal's continuing crusade):

http://www.ihr.org/news/040326zundel.shtml (leading holocaust denial organization)

http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2004-denialreport.php

http://untrue_madhouse.blogspot.com/2004/05/i-lived-in-new-york-for-eight-years-or.html (left-wing anti-zionist opponent of holocaust denial)

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2004w12/msg00111.htm

Oh, and -whadda you know? - it's mentioned on Counterpunch's own website: http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair03192004.html.

Oh, I guess all of these people across the political spectrum made this up too?

As far as apologies go: I confess to getting VERY VERY ANGRY at the continued existence of nazi genocidal racists in the world (i.e Zundel, Israel Shamir, Ziopedia and others) as well as their apologists and enablers such as Gilad Atzmon and quite frequently the editors of Counterpunch; my policiy in such matters is to "shoot first and ask questions later" - and I make no apologies for THAT! Your seeming apologia for Counterpunch's association with these racist vermin so enraged me that I may have jumped the gun a bit in describing YOU. However, I am equally due an apology FROM YOU in light of your attacks on my integrity and charachter -i.e your UTTERLY VILE insinuation that I made up the existence of this article or in any way misrepresented it's contents. I simply was too lazy to produce these links earlier; they are now posted above, and are irrefutable. And if you demand, and when you have time, I can produce quite a few others.

I simply think that for anyone that wishes to understand why SOME people consider Counterpunch to be if not consistently anti-semitic (or more precisely, anti-Jewish), it is essential that they be exposed to this material in order to obtain a balanced understanding of the website. You can reduce the length, etc. but it should be in some way represented. And if you like, you can balance this out by extending the "praise" section with additional quotes, testimonies of support etc.


Well the unkown user is finally starting to show his true colors. Question the fact that his original article didn't have one source or link to support it and he threatens to sue you. Now of all of suddens he comes up with all these sources that show the article that he admits he was originally "too lazy" to include. He also admits that his policy is to "shoot first and ask questions later", basically he never had any intention of being fair or neutral. He wasn't adding this because he wanted to make a legitimate point, he doesn't like counterpunch and wants the reader to come away with a skewed view of them. He uses terms such as "explicitly rascist" to describe shamir and atzmon, which for a man who likes to threaten people with slander and libel suits seems rather hypocritical. Whatever yours or mines opinion of these two men, they are actual people and calling them explicitly rascist is defamation.

As for the Zundel article I will concede that I was wrong in that it does appear that the article exists. However, I'm still not apologizing because contrary to your claim I never once called you a liar, I only questioned the articles existence because of the lack of evidence to support it.

Also, you were wrong in your paragraph that when you suggested that Cabal was defending Zundels views. Not once in the article does he at all endorse Zundel, he only says that it is wrong to jail a man for having unpopular views. I may disagree with Zundel, but I don't think he should be kidnapped and and locked away for that.

Will Beback, RolandR I am again extrememly sorry for my tone and wish I could be more civil, but I am extremely frustated right now. I think you guys should talk to the unkown user from now on. To satisfy him add some things about Israel Shamir, because believe it or not I actually believe counterpunch may have made a mistake in posting his writings. I still beleive the Zundel reference should be stricken form the article because it feels random and out of place in connection to the criticism of Atzmon and Shamir. I would prefer that any further rewrites be written by RolandR. annoynmous 17:12, February 2007 (UTC)

So this is what I get for my apology to anonynmous - further slander and abuse re: my intellectual integrity and motives. I just said that I "jumped the gun" about him in particular (not Shamir, Atzmon, Cabal etc.) and in response not only does he refuse to apologize for calling me a liar (which he DID by implying that I had invented the existence of the Alan Cabal article), he proceeds to misrepresent my statements.

I only stated that I "shot first and asked questions later" in regards to Nazis and their sympathizers, not about matters in general, including Counterpunch. Or do you feel that these poor, oppressed creatures deserve special solicitude?

It is in no way defamatory to describe actual racists AS racist; in regards to Shamir and Atzmon, see the multitude of examples provided on the Wiki pages, as well as the attached links (and I certainly wouldn't expect Roland Rance to disagree with me on this point). Shamir, in particular, makes a specific point of allying with David Duke, the German Nazi Horst Mahler and leaders of the British National Party such as Martin Webster, and has explicity endorsed signficant aspects of their programs (e.g. holocaust denial, immigration restriction etc.). Therefore, it is every bit as accurate to label them racist as the people with whom they ally.

As far as Alan Cabel: while the Counterpunch article is somewhat muted in this respect, Cabal has on other sites endorsed Zundel's views, not just his rights to free speech, called him a "pacifist" etc. ; when I am not at work, I will be happy to dig up the neccessary links. Will anonynmous read them without first filtering them through his pre-established pro-Counterpunch bias? More central to our topic: why does Counterpunch continue to publish writers like Cabal, Shamir and Atzmon? Would they do the same with people who regularly bashed Muslims, or apologized for their persecutors? This is relevent to a balanced discussion of the website and it's politics.

I agree that it is best that anonynmous and I ceased communicating, as he seems incapable of fairly representing my editing efforts, or even accepting my earlier "olive branch".


Funny I didn't see the words "I Apologize" or "I'm sorry" anywhere. The only thing you said was that you might have jumped the gun. Might have jumped the gun! I revert your extremely POV heavy paragraph and then you respond with the gut zionist reflex of calling me a Nazi apologist and you think you just might have jumped the gun? I'd say you dropped the gun and went right for the rocket launcher. You on the other hand will not find the word liar anywhere in my posts. I simply made the observation that you had no evidence to support the article's existence.
Also I think that reasonable people would agree that Atzmon and Shamir's supposed rascism is at least controversial. In the case of Atzmon I feel it has no merit as he said that he isn't one and has in fact filed suit against organizations that label him as such. Shamir is another matter and I do agree that there is sufficient evidence that he may be a right winger pretending to be a left-winger. However, he has still never plainly endorsed holocaust denial or anti-semitism. The ambiquity of his statements may point to this conclusion, but it is far from a certain fact.
Anyway I don't feel counterpunch should be blamed for including a diversity of viewpoints. You can argue over being more careful of whose articles they publish, but I challenge you to find one article in counterpunch that steadfastly supports holocaust denial. RolandR may have a problem with there publishing of Atzmon, but even he acknowledges that counterpunch isn't a bunch of Neo-Nazi rascist's as you would have us beleive they are.
As for the "Shoot first and ask questions later" comment, you stated that your targets also included the editors of counterpunch, not just Nazi sympathizers. I realize that you beleive them to be Nazi sympathizers, but it seems to me in interest of fairness when righting about a somewhat popular internet newsletter you should try to contstruct your criticism in a more professional and neutral way.
Will Beback I suggest you lift the ban and let RolandR make some additional edits and see if we can at all satisfy the unkown user's demands.

annoynmous 19:18, February 2007 (UTC)

Per the suggestion above I will remove the protection. Please discuss potentialy contentious edits first, and please don't revert one another. -Will Beback · † · 21:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then, I would like to see some references made to the Cabal article, in addition to the Atzmon/Shamir references. These are all crucial as evidence for why many people who oppose anti-Jewish racism have made accusations against Counterpunch. I will hold off on posting if an acceptable compromise version is written.

By the way, it is certainly NOT true that Shamir has "never plainly endorsed holocaust denial or anti-semitism"; he most certainly HAS done so on a great many occasions - most recently endorsing the Tehran conference - and there is nothing "ambigious" about this, as there is -occasionally- about Atzmon. This is a "certain fact" as you should know if you had done the most minimal research on this utterly hideous being. But it is not so crucial to me that all of these examples be spelled out in the article itself; only that there be some indication that there is some solid basis for suspicion about Counterpunch's attitude towards anti-Jewish racism, as opposed to their relentless opposition towards all other forms of discrimination.

Fair enough. I have left a message on RolandR's talk page asking him to come up with a new paragraph that mentions both Atzmon and Shamir and address's your concerns. I've suggested that he leave out the reference to the Cabal article and if after he makes his edits you still want it in then you can take that up with him directly and see if you can come to some kinda agreement.
Also supporting the Tehran conference does not necessarily make one a anti-semite. As you probably know there were several anti-zionist jews at the conference who while supporting it, condemned the holocaust denial present at the conference. In the long run I probably will end up agreeing with you on Shamir, but calling him a rascist is still technically a matter of opinion. There are conservative personalities who I personally think are rascist such as Ann coulter, but I would never say it's absolute fact that they are rascist.annoynmous 21:26, 8 February (UTC)
This article is about CounterPunch, not about Atzmon or Shamir. Most criticism of them belongs in the respective articles about them, not here. I have edited both pages, and been involved in endless and bitter arguments there. I don't want to go through the same here, and my real criticism of CounterPunch is its failure to print responses. I certainly would not agree that it is racist (though I have used this term to describe both Atzmon and Shamir)or neo-nazi. I would be reluctant to expand the criticism section unless the praise section was also expanded. And, although I could write briefly (and I hope objectively) about the link with Shamir, I had never heard of Alan Cabal until I read this page, and I still know next-to-nothing about him. RolandR 22:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He apparently wrote an article in the print edition of counterpunch that is critical of Ernest Zundel's arrest for holocaust denial. He does not in the article, as the unkown user claims, endorse Zundel or the work he published, he simply said it was wrong to kidnap and imprison Zundel for taking an unpopular viewpoint. The unkown user claims to have links to sites where Cabal flat out endorses Zundel and his theories, but so far has failed to produce them. At any rate even though article has been reproduced on several blogs, the original is still only avaible in the print edition of counterpunch and I therefore beleive it shouldn't be included as it is not easily linked to. However, the unkown user insists on it so I'll leave it for you two to argue about. annoynmous 23:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Roland, here's a representative example of some of Alan Cabal's recent comments (see in particular the charming conclusion to the first paragraph):

"At Sun Sep 03, 09:58:00 PM EDT, Alan Cabal said... I'd rather harvest Zionist trolls for organs, myself. We've already paid for the parts. An independent Jewish state is a great idea, y'all should try it sometime. See if you can actually support yourselves without the welfare you get from America (who saved your worthless asses) and Germany (who you framed and defamed for a crime they should commit right now).

I$rael can't stand on it's own feet, because the Jews as a group really have no talent for anything but plagiarism. Your century is OVER."

This completely unedited comment is taken from the following exchange on a blog to which Cabal regularly contributes:

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/09/israel-is-fake-regime-that-explains.html

Cabal certainly does not deny writing this - and there is similarly vile anti-JEWISH, not "anti-zionist" invective written by him on other posts on both the above and other blogs. It would take me many hours to locate them all. The more central question here is why is this blatantly genocidal fascist racist pig STILL published on Counterpunch (2 articles within the past month in fact)? Is it not relevant that they find such a "person" worthy of publication on their site and on their pages, albeit not (recently) on the topics above?

Is just me or does anyone else find it funny that all of the unkown user's sources come from nutjobs blogs and comment pages on them. He still hasn't produced any solid evidence of Alan Cabal endorsing Zundels views or Holocaust denial. Of course Cabal doesn't like zionists, I happen to not like them either, but that doesn't make him anti-semitic just anti-israel. If the unkown user can produce one solid article written by Cabal that endorces holcaust denial I'll shut up. Not some comment page on a blog either, but an actual article from any website or newspaper. RolandR I leave it in your hands, look at the unkown users sources and decide for yourself.annoynmous 2:46, February 9 2007 (UTC)
This comment has nothing whatsoever to do with CounterPunch. It may be of relevance to an article on Cabal, but I have no interest in him and don't intend to write it. Nor do I have any intention of writing to him.
His article in CounterPunch may be of relevance, but I haven't yet read it because it's not in CP online and I don't trust zundelsite or other neo-nazis to have an accurate version. As far as I'm concerned, any reference to Cabal's alleged article would be redundant in this article, and any reference to views apparently expressed in his name elsewhere are totally irrelevant.
Incidentally, annoynmous, this is why I insisted that the reference to Atzmon note that it was claimed that it is the articles in CP, and not Atzmon himself, which "blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism". RolandR 11:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have sent an email to Alan Cabal and asked him to clarify his views on this discussion page. Who knows if he'll respond. In Counterpunch it says that he lives somewhere in California and the address on this guy's blog say's San Franscisco so it could be him. Although, I'm not sure because there isn't any political writing on his site that I can tell of, at least any political talk concerning Israel or for that matter Ernest Zundel. RolandR I wonder if you could also try and contact this Alan Cabal, if he's the same one who wrote the article, and ask him to express himself on this page and maybe we can finally settle this
I've also written an email to counterpunch asking Alex and Jeffrey to contribute. Sense it's there newsletter that's being defamed I feel they have a right to contribute and give there two cents. annoynmous 3:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Annoynmous: it is completely UNACCEPTABLE POV to ask the subjects of an article to contribute to it -and evidence yet again of your own far-from-neutral position on this topic (which is also apparent in some of your comments on Roland R's talk page). So please stop blasting me for MY "bias", OK? Roland, I agree that Counterpunch should not be held responsible for the vile points of view that Cabal has expressed elsewhere, but it is certainly relevent in explaining how he came to his pro-Zundel position which they DID publish. Do you honestly believe that someone who argued that extermination of Muslim's is a crime that "should have been commited" would be published on their site?


Settle down would you! I was just trying to find a way so that we could settle this matter faster.Sense the normal way of solving the dispute didn't seem to be working, I figured let's try and get some actual comment from the people mentioned in this article. In all likelihood they will probably ignore the emails I sent them because they probably have better things to do. I don't understand the sensitivity here. Is it so out of line that the people mentioned in this article might have a right to respond to potentially misleading information that could be damaging to them. You know, like it or not it is still just your opinion that Alan Cabal is a Nazi apologist and accusing him of that when it is far from certain is defamation. Your the one who talked about sueing me earlier because you claimed I called you a liar. Who knows! maybe Cabal will come to this page and post some outrageous Nazi rant and I'll admit you were right all along. I think if people are being accused of something negative they have a right to at least give there side of it. I'm not asking them to edit anything in the article, just discuss it, are you opposed to just talking. I just thought it was way we could end this arguement in a quicker fashion that's all. annoynmous 20:52, 9 February (UTC)

Oh, it's "just my opinion" now that Alan Cabal is a Nazi holocaust denier, is it? I just posted a DIRECT QUOTE UNDER HIS NAME (which on the site is linked to his blog which has his email). Here it is once again:

"I'd rather harvest Zionist trolls for organs, myself. We've already paid for the parts. An independent Jewish state is a great idea, y'all should try it sometime. See if you can actually support yourselves without the welfare you get from America (who saved your worthless asses) and Germany (who you framed and defamed for a crime they should commit right now).

I$rael can't stand on it's own feet, because the Jews as a group really have no talent for anything but plagiarism. Your century is OVER."

"FRAMED AND DEFAMED FOR A CRIME THEY SHOULD COMMIT RIGHT NOW"? Does this count as racism and a call for a genocide in YOUR book, nony dearest? It does in that of any reasonably sentinent individual. I'm sure you would agree were it directed against any other minority group. Why is that you hard-left Counterpunch types (and I don't mean genuinely democratic socialists) are so bleeding oblivious to the continued existence of anti-semitism -or more accurately, Jew-hatred - especially when it occurs "on the left"? How much more blatant would it need to be? Is anything short of physical proof of a man personally tossing Jews into a gas chamber (which again, Cabal, like his hero Zundel denies ever occured) not evidence of anti-semitism or nazi apologias in your view? Are you ever willing to admit that I just might know what I'm talking about?????????????????????

I DESPISE RACIST NAZI VERMIN such as Cabal and Zundel and I will not "settle down" while their agenda is (in your case, probably unintentionally) whitewashed!

Excuse me for not wanting to condemn someone for a FUCKING COMMENT ON A FUCKING BLOG!!!! Okay, I'm sorry to everyone else for my tone and language, but this line of conversation has taken me to a breaking point. All I wanted was to hear Alan Cabal's and Counterpunch's take on things. That's all! Discussion, nothing more. You know! That thing civilized people do. You can't expect us to except your characterization based on a comment page on a blog do you. Who know's what the context of such words were, maybe it was written in anger. It's not made clear what crime he's referring to, it's just your paranoid mind that immediately see conspiracies against Jews everywhere. If he come's to this page and says the holocaust never happened and Jews are pigs I'll give up and say I was wrong. However, until then we know very little about this Alan Cabal. Unlike Shamir and Atzmon there isn't much on the net to give a fully accurate view of this man. You know for someone who is obviously so emotional about this issue did you think maybe your not the best person to give an impartial judgement.
RolandR would you please come and talk to this guy because I literally can't take this anymore. I've tried and tried, but it's obvious no matter how much vitriol we through at each other that we aren't getting anywhere. The unkown user and I have an obvious dislike for one another and it's obvious we can't engage in a civilized discussion, so can you talk to him sense he seems to have a more cordial relationship with you.
I apologize once again to everybody for my tone and language.annoynmous 21:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I dunno what crime do you think he's talking about in a discussion about GERMANY and Jews? Especially when he's a pro-Zundel activist? It is your willfull blindness and steadfast determination to deny any and all examples of anti-Jewish hate that so enrages me; I'll certainly be much calmer if you did not post on a topic in which you continue to present such willfull and determined ignorance, and worse yet -seek to prevent readers from learning more.


Okay this is it. This is the last time I respond to you so listen closely. You have not provided any solid evidence that Cabal endorses his views. The article you originally sighted was a defense of Zundel's freedom of speech and a critique of the way in which he was arrested. The only evidence you have for his supposed anti-semitic views is a comment page on a blog which isn't sufficient evidence sense we don't know the context of the words or the way they were written.
Here's another thing, If you attempt to restore your original paragraph I will revert it. We will probably get in another back and forth revert war and Will Beback will be forced to reinstall the Block.
Why don't you stop wasting your time with me and go to RolandR's talk page and see if you two can come to some mutual agreement. Then this can be solved and our blood pressure's can go back to normal. THE END.annoynmous 22:25, 9 February (UTC)

I presented the full context of Cabal's blog comments by posting the URL of the entire exchange in which they appeared (certainly, it would have taken far too much space to have simply cut and paste it all here). There is ABSOLUTELY NO circumstance in which they would be morally acceptable or uttered by anyone other than a degenerate genocidal racist/fascist pig. The fact that you can state otherwise is indicative once again that you simply do not care about - let alone oppose - any level of racism or hatred directed against Jews. You and Counterpunch more generally would not respond in this way were any other ethnic/racial/religious minority group so targeted. Sadly, it's beginning to appear that it was my apology to you that "jumped the gun" rather than my original comments.

Great! So I'm a Nazi apologist again. Now I'm really glad I didn't apologize to you. I think I said several posts ago that I believe the Holcaust happened. I simply want to get context in which these arguements were written. In the context they appear on the site they are ambigous as to there meaning. They could be a expression of anti-semtism, or simply just a rather harsh critque of zionism. That's why I asked Cabal to contribute to this article so his views could be made clear. If he did and his comments came off as supporting Holcaust denial, I've said before I'd admit I was wrong. I mean I'm not even sure if this is the same Alan Cabal since there is no plitical writing at his blog.
As for the rascism charges I beleive that criticism of an ethnic or religous group based solely on the fact that there relgion isn't yours is wrong. I think one can criticize jewish religious pratices and even jewish culture as one can do of all cultures. When you criticize a group on the basis that they are gentically inferior because of there ethnicity that is rascism and utterly descipable.
I know I said I wouldn't resond anymore, but I can't take laying down the unkown user painting me as a rascist and getting away with it. It seems rather pathetic that because someone wants actual, solid, uambigous proof that someone is a Holocaust denier that they should be called a rascist.annoynmous 21:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative media (U.S. political left)

When unlocked, add article to Alternative media (U.S. political left) category.

--Kitrus 06:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Stalinist racist weekly ?

I just deleted some vandalism ... had "Stalinist racist" right on the first paragraph Pendolatrice 14:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


wsj

I deleted the Wall Street Journal- Opinion Journal related comment from the criticism section. It wasnt a criticism it was just name calling and completely irrevelent. and give citations for the holocaust denier piece or else delete it.

Holocaust Denial

I've removed a sentence about alleged "holocaust deniers" which is potentially libelous and isn't supported by any reliable sources. Please don't re-add it without providing a source. Spacevalid 18:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you had bothered to look at the article history, or the discussion here on the talk page, you would see that the fact tag had been placed only recently, and time was being given for a source to be found. As such, I am reverting your edit. ---Charles 18:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We must not keep potentially libelous material in an article, even with a fact tag. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons should be removed immediately, not tagged. [9] Adding this material without a source is vandalism, and I will remove it every time you re-add it. Spacevalid 18:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC) 18:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have replaced this information in a non-libellous form. All of these individuals' WP articles mentions Holocaust revisionism. References need to be inserted here, which I will do if I have time. BobFromBrockley 11:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note, there are more than one Daniel McGowans! The WP article for him (Daniel McGowan) is NOT about the alleged denier Daniel A McGowan. BobFromBrockley 12:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have toned down the phrasing to remove any possible suggestion of libel. The references give documentation: On Cabal: Holocaust Denial: A Global Survey - 2004. On McGowan: Sue Blackwell's anti-Zionist page; CAMERA. On Shamir: LabourNet. The sources for Sue Blackwell and LabourNet, incidentally, are far from pro-Zionist. It wouldn't take much googling to add more references making the case for these people being apologists for deniers, notably Ernst Zundel. BobFromBrockley 11:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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