Talk:Æthelbald of Mercia

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England?

Ethelbald was effectively first king of unified Br. See W S Churchill's History of the British People (whatever its exact title...) Trekphiler 11:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ceolred's death

I've included the story of Ceolred dying in a fit, which per the Ceolred of Mercia page comes from St. Boniface. It needs a source citation, though, since another WP article can't be used as a source and the Ceolred article doesn't cite it. Mike Christie (talk) 12:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I changed my mind and removed it. See the Ceolred article to re-add it; but it needs Boniface as a source. Mike Christie (talk) 22:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boniface has bad things to say about Ceolred, but Kirby thinks this is down to bias amongst his informants. There's a quote at the Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England's entry on Ceolred here, under correspondance. Zaluckyj quotes a different excerpt: Ceolred was "...feasting in splendour amidst his companions [when] - as those who were present have testified - suddenly in his sin sent mad by a malign spirit...". (Zaluckyj, p.136, quoting Whitelock's EHD no. 177.) Eddi has nothing bad to say, only reporting that Ceolred had promised to make Wilfrid his spiritual director (VW, c. 64). Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Angus, thanks for the pointers. I'm not familiar with these sources but will do some research; the "Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England" site I can reference directly, of course, but I'd like to cite the countervailing comment you attribute to Kirby, too. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk) 01:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can add those. I've been putting off Æthelbald for a while, hoping that I'd get a chance to read Worthington and Hill's Æthelbald and Offa, but no such luck. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds interesting -- can you give me an ISBN? I just did a search for it and found their "Offa's Dyke" but not the book you mention. Mike Christie (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

David Hill & Margaret Worthington (eds.) Aethelbald and Offa : two eighth-century kings of Mercia (British Archaeological Reports, British series, no. 383). Oxford: Archaeopress, 2005. ISBN 1-84171-687-1 Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) OK, I added the note about the fit back, citing EHD. I don't have access to a copy so a page number is needed; I suppose I could cite Zaluckyj instead but EHD seems a better source. I'll try to put a to-do list together for this article before I finish with it, and that can go on the list. Thanks for the BAR reference. One day I'll get to the UT library and get to some of these. Mike Christie (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed note on Aethelheard being subject to Aethelbald

I'm removing this comment "The successful claimant to the throne of Wessex, Aethelheard, seems to have subsequently ruled subject to Mercian authority. This may indicate that his claim to the throne had been supported by Ethelbald." since I can't find a source for it. It's not in ASC; I have a vague memory that it's because Aethelheard is listed as a subregulus on a charter somewhere but the charters I found him on don't support that. I'm adding it to the to-do list to put back when sourced. I also can't find an assertion like this in any secondary sources.

To-do list

Get the page number for the EHD citation for Ceolred's fit at the banquet.
Find a source for "The successful claimant to the throne of Wessex, Aethelheard, seems to have subsequently ruled subject to Mercian authority. This may indicate that his claim to the throne had been supported by Ethelbald."

1 is done (and the mysterious Ceolwald gets a mention now). On the second point, Kirby, p. 133, says "Among the West Saxons it may be that it was Aethelbald's support which enabled Aethelheard to defeat the aetheling Oswald, and that this established both Aethelheard and his brother, Cuthred, who subsequently succeeded Aethelheard in 739, as Aethelbald's dependants or at least obliged them to make territorial concessions." He then goes on to the occupation of Somerton, and the charters S.1410, S.1679, and S.1258 and says: "The impression these records give is that Aethelbald brought certain West Saxon territories directly under his own authority..." and so on. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help; I've incorporated some of this into the article.

Another question: I have just added a note about the titles Ethelbald had in his charters: "King of Britain", and "King of all the South English". I am pretty sure I've seen a comment somewhere to the effect that every charter that gives Ethelbald these grand titles comes from the Worcester scriptorium, and so may be giving a biased view. I can't find this anywhere -- I thought it was in Campbell's "The Anglo-Saxons", but it doesn't seem to be there. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Mike Christie (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]