Talk:Koda Kumi

Peer Review

Well documented, well linked to the other wikipedia entries; no comments there. Biography needs improvement, as she would have been 9 years old in 3rd grade (1989) and the biography doesn't resume until 2000. One question arrose for me while I was reading the article: Why did producers stick with her even though her singles continually flopped? -- Nictius 14:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

When editing this page

When you are trying to add some useful information to this entry, kindly check that the page has not been vandalized so that we do not later have to reverse it to the page it was before the vandalization took place. Thank you. Chsf 11:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Discography

At the moment separate pages for the singles are under construction. --Chsf 19:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

New singles

When posting titles of yet-to-be released singles, you must state whether the title has been confirmed or not - and if hasn't, then you must quote your sources! Chsf 13:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Music stub

How is this page still a stub? Robaato 09:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Good question, how much more crucial information is there to add about her, if any? Anyone else in favor of removing the "music stub" tag? Chsf 17:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

New Singles' Names

On her official website you can find the names to some of her new singles. - ShinigamiNiko 15 December 2005

Single Sales

I suggest adding the single sales to the main page. I have all of Koda's album and single sales number according to Oricon, but is it suitable for the page? -M_C

Do you mean the total or the single by single? Because the latter is to be found on the individual singles.
chsf, 19 December 2005

Chart positions

For the last time, the information presented is for weekly rankings, not daily. Daily sales do not mean anything in the long run. Please refrain from mentioning anything about daily sales in the discography from now on. Soulsteelgray 00:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

On Ayumi's page we just made it so there is a part of daily and weekly ranking for albums, why dont you guys do that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impracticable (talk • contribs) 23:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

More Complete Biography and Profile

I've added a more complete Biography of Kumi from her childhood to the release of "Secret", I put all the info I know about her in here, I'm sure it helps to her article.

I've also added some info from her profile which is in her official website. Clouded 02:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Profile moved to Trivia and I removed information that was already repeated once or twice in the article (statistics like date and place of birth, artist and given name etc.). I also added the original quote, now I only wish someone could verify that the translation and the original Japanese quote are saying the same thing! - chsf 12:54, 2006/02/28 (UTC)

Well, if you wanted to change "Profile" to "Trivia" I guess it's Ok, but that information has to before the biography, not at the ending of the article next to the discography, that doesn't make sence, and also must have those info like her real name and birhdate and birthplace. The "Favorite Quote" i guess it was wrong, even the translation, sorry about that. When I know the correct meaning i going to put that again. Clouded 20:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it makes perfect sense, "Trivia" goes at the end of the biographical part of the article, and what is the use in repeating the same information trice? — chsf 00:03, 2006/03/02 (UTC)

chsf, well, this is a free encyclopedia, so if you want to change it, change it. But you deleted her real name from the whole article. Clouded 16:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

In March '06 Koda Kumi recieved artist of the month from MTV JAPAN (http://www.mtvjapan.com/music/aom/) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.13.99.2 (talk • contribs) .

Get It On -- not a single

Get It On is not an officially released single. It's available only for download via cell phones. Soulsteelgray 21:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too into Kumi's career, but a saw at her homepage that "Get It On" it is a single, but a virtual one, marked as the "00" single of the ~12 single collection~. I don't if this info helps. Clouded 15:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Get It On" was credited as single, because it is one (but an "online" one) ;). Clouded 00:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Name

Once again, someone has been changing around Kumi's surname. Seems some people aren't aware what her actual surname at birth was. Would be good if someone could once and for all clarify what she was born as and then keep a look out in future for people changing it.

The person who wrote this, needs to read this Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Please read that. The Kōda must be used instead of the Kouda. When you romanizes Japanese names of that kind you don't put the full extrict pronunciation (Like in Ootsuka Ai you only put Otsuka Ai ~(and so does she) -- or Itou Ichirou writes his name (himself does that -- and everyone does also) Ichiro Ito . Clouded 00:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

So her name should be written as Kumi Koda, her name as a performer (geimei/芸名), as it is in the title of the article, but shouldn't she be referred to as Koda instead of Kumi? That's like referring to Prime Minister Koizumi as Junichiro instead of saying "Koizumi was born in..." Or like saying "George" instead of Bush, and so on. Keipop 21:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was written by her fans, that's why. I changed "Kumi" to "Koda." Annoying stuff. mirageinred 19:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You are confusing fans with otaku. -- Chsf 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Well, they're so friggin annoying. mirageinred 19:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Koda Kumi is her stage name as has been written on many cds. Her full name is Kumiko Kouda so it doesn't really make sense to refer to her as "Kumi Koda." Kumiko Kouda is fine, but Kumi is not her actual given name. The switch-around makes no sense in this case, so I changed it to Koda Kumi as is shown on her cds. Enshi 21:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia follows the "most known" name: if one name is better known that another, then we must use it. In other words, if her true name is Kumiko Kouda, but everywhere she is called Kumi Koda, then we must use Kumi Koda because it is the most common name. A classical example is Pelé, the soccer player. Although his real name is Edson Arantes do Nascimento, he is better known as Pelé, and therefore the article is named after it, and references inside the article are given as Pelé instead of his full name. -- ReyBrujo 21:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Koda Kumi IS her most known name. You can go to her official site and see it as well. Enshi 22:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Check our manual of style about Japanese names: For a modern figure (a person born from the first year of Meiji (1868) onward), always use the Western order of given name + family name for Western alphabet, and Japanese style family name+<space>+given name for Japanese characters. In other words, if Kumi is her name and Koda is her family name (last name or surname), then the article should read as "Kumi Koda", just as Namie Amuro, Utada Hikaru, Rika Ishikawa and any other Japanese name. -- ReyBrujo 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I did check the manual of style, but Kumi is not her name. Her name is Kumiko, but her stage name is "Koda Kumi". It reads as such on her official website as well as her cds. Enshi 22:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It should just be "Koda Kumi" not "Kumi Koda". I wondered why it was "Kumi Koda" seeing as though her first name is Kumi, not Koda, while Utada Hikaru's first name is "Hikaru" not "Utada". "Utada" is the family name. I think we should change it to "Koda Kumi"; That is her stage name X2RADialbomber 06:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see that XaiTerran has reverted everything. I see the whole issue as such: There is a conflict between two wikipedia policies: The one to provide accurate information, and the other being the Manual of Style. To provide accurate information (ie to use the more common name "Koda Kumi"), would mean a clash with the Manual of Style (which says "Kumi Koda"). So what now? We've got to bend a rule, and I'd say break the Manual of Style, since I personally think that providing correct information is more important. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 07:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I undid the revert. There is no rule being broken because "Kumi" is not her actual name; only a nickname. Enshi 00:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that. I have made some changes to the article because the links would be broken if they were put as "Koda Kumi". They were changed back to "Kumi Koda", but don't worry, they won't show up in the article. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 03:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it because all the links were broken, for one, and the Manual of Style was being broken, secondly. However, I do think it should be "Koda Kumi" instead of "Kumi Koda" because that's how they write her name in English. (See Butterfly PV & "KODA KUMI Live Tour ~2006-2007~) But again, I was told it should be Kumi Koda and not Koda Kumi and I think all this talk is just creating confusion. -XaiTerran 05:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

First thing I must tell you is that you shouldn't revert indiscrimately, especially when discussions are still going on. If you're unsure, please check first before taking any action. Down to the actual issue: Enshi's argument is that "Koda Kumi" is a nickname, and not her real name, so Manual of Style doesn't apply. My point is that I'd rather flout the manual of style than flout the Verifiability policy. You said that you were told that putting "Koda Kumi" is wrong. Who is that person, and on what basis did he/she make that assertion? — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 09:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I actually wasn't aware the discussion was going on in the middle of the page, the edit said "See Talk Page", but I couldn't find it so I just reverted it. And putting Koda Kumi was said to be wrong because of the initial discussion at the top of this section. "Koda" is said to be her last name, "Kumi" is said to be her first name. However, whenever her products are released, they're given the title "Koda Kumi" and not "Kumi Koda", such as in the examples I listed above. Mostly, I prefer using "Koda Kumi" because that's what sites list her as, not "Kumi Koda". -XaiTerran 15:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Instead of thinking of "Koda" and "Kumi" as "last name" and "first name", why not think about "Koda Kumi" as a "nickname"? That's how it's supposed to work, because when we're talking about "first name" and "last name" we're talking about a person's real name. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 05:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so now that we've gotten that part settled, do we just keep calling her "Koda Kumi" in the rest of the article? If that is really to be a "nickname", then we'd have to say "Koda Kumi" everytime instead of just "Koda" (or "Kumi"). -XaiTerran 05:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, you've got a good point there. Still, I do think it is inappropriate to split a nickname into a "first name" and a "last name"... Since we're now talking about what she calls herself, then we'll look out for how she shortens her nickname... As a matter of fact, when she shortens "Koda Kumi", she shortens it to "Koda" (don't ask me why, I don't know :P), look at Koda Cafe for example. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 08:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

And so...should we move the page to "Koda Kumi"? -XaiTerran 19:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I won't mind that happening, but then again, I would want an official poll to take place, and a good consensus before we actually do anything big. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 05:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Great article, but...

It has no references! I see unsourced claims in nearly every sentence. This article is very well written but it has nothing to substantiate it. Axem Titanium 00:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Musume Audition

This page list Kumi as auditioning for Musume's fourth generation however, the Musume page said she audition for third...Anyone know the correct version? --TheReverendDoom 15:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay I referenced the Japanese wiki and it says she auditioned for the third generation. I will make the edit. --TheReverendDoom 15:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Dating Shingo?

I'm watching the August 24, 2006 episode of "Utaban" right now and there's a significant mention of Koda Kumi dating Katori Shingo from SMAP (by Shingo himself and the other members of SMAP). Any other verification before it can be added? Kenzilla

The page needs major help.

When writing a formal article/writing it is common sense to avoid using one's first name! Use her surname instead. Using first names make it sound way too casual. It is also very obvious that fans are contributing to this page, and I mean this in a bad way. Please keep it NPOV! mirageinred 22:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This page needs to be cleaned up...

Reading through the page, the biography of Koda Kumi is nicely done, but like others, I'm worried about the fact that it barely ever cites where the author of the edits got their info. So, I've been trying to collect up sources for to back up such info, but most of them are outdated and have plainly put, been lost to time. I wanted to make sure JP articles are fine to cite, even though this is an English article. For example:

She commented confidently, "It was a first time experiment for me, but I was able to convey how both happiness and sadness are two sides of the same coin." ^{[citation needed]}

The source for that comment is within in this Sanspo article. Would it be okay to use it? --XaiTerran 08:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: Oh well, I edited the page anyway (just the Black Cherry era part). If there are mistakes I've done or missed, please inform me of it. I'll try to cite more articles to back up the information on this page, but it will be hard since there is practically nothing on her existence before 2005.

--XaiTerran 10:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Still tagged?

I think the article is ready to have the tags taken off it, even though I'm not finished revising it. I made sure I cited as much as info as I could in the sections I revised (grow into one --> Black Cherry & Awards & Accomplishments).

Unfortunately, there is basically nonexistent info for Koda before secret. It was really hard finding any sources for secret, if anything. How should the article before secret be handled?

XaiTerran 05:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This info was removed...

The following sentence was removed from the article

(Surname: Koda, First name: Kumiko (shortened: Kumi), Nickname: Kuuchan) 

That was done by 75.16.78.215, who commented "no." in the edit summary field. Anyone has any opinions/suggestions regarding this removal, which I believe is unecessary?

— 0612 (TALK); Posted: 03:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

HER NAME IS ALREADY IN THE INFOBOX. It doesn't need to be repeated again and again. How do you know Kuuchan is her nickname? Everything's in the infobox, you don't need to clutter up the article. The fact that the "sentence" was even there in the first place is unecessary, not it being removed. ― Sturr ★彡 ^Refill/lol 20:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent Adding Information Dispute

Whoever keeps adding the small trite name information between "Kumi Koda" and "is a female Japanese pop singer." needs to stop it. Her alias and name change are already listed in the info box next to the introductory paragraph. So please, STOP ADDING THAT USELESS INFORMATION. It's been removed several times for a reason. -- XaiTerran 20:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

With recent vandalism by crazy pathetic Ayumi Hamasaki fans with absolutely no time on their hands, and also annoying minor edits of irrelevant information by anonymous IPs, it would be a wise idea for this article to be locked and give exclusive privileges to certain users to edit this page.

-XaiTerran 03:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that'll be a good idea. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 10:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be repeated vandalism, because I tried to get both articles protected and the admin declined due to the fact that there isn't enough evidence of the horrible edits. ― Sturr ★彡 ^Refill/lol 03:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh boo. I'm also disliking the edits from unregistered users, adding trifle information without citing properly or just superfluous information that either doesn't fit the article stylistically or is just plain superfluous. XaiTerran 19:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because Ayumi fans are willing to do anything for theur favorite .. dont be h8in. Anyway, I'm not jsut an Ayumi Hamasaki fan, but also an Ai Otsuka fan. and i only do it because Kumi Koda hasnt got the talent of either of them. Anyway, it dosent matter. Ku is at the bottom of the ladder. Just look at the Recent BEST by All. So far the sales are ... A Best 2 | Ayumi Hamasaki = Nearly 1.3 Million Sold / Nearly 2 million shipped ... Ai Otsuka | Ai am BEST! = 400,000 Koda Kumi | BEST ~Bounce & Lovers~ = 200,000. So i dont care about making kuu look bad on wikipedia anymore. (Impracticable 03:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry, but A BEST 2 sold poorly. Combining two different CDs to make one giant sale? Doesn't work, buddy. Ayumi's the one with no talent, retard.

Plus, B&L is a limited edition album. Good one again! Find something better to do. XaiTerran 10:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I said, even if you seperate them, on their oiwn they bothh have more. and it says it in the article yourself, you can get B&L until April. So i geuss that means its limited i time to get it, not limited made. Even if it is limited, Ayumi's old limited release single sold more than that. So what, koda's sales suck. And if Ayu has no talent, why is she the best selling japanese female and solo artist of all time, wth average sales per year of 5 million? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impracticable (talk • contribs) 23:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

Roffles, you wanna talk sales? Let's take a look at their last original albums. Oh wait, Black Cherry totally beat the crap out of Ayumi's Secret. And how much did Secret sell again? :) Oh, and might I remind you that Koda's tour/concert DVDs outsell Ayumi's? Yeah. Guess the person the general public thinks has more talent. -XaiTerran 05:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Roffles your mom. I'm geussing you don't know how high the international sales of Secret are? its her best selling internation album. Which means it had to seel at KLEAST over 1.5 million internationally. NHow who beat the crap out of who, moron? do oyur research. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impracticable (talk • contribs) 15:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

You know what? This is a really retarded discussion. If you want to comfort yourself with sales, go ahead. It's not any basis for why any artist is good, better, or whatever. -XaiTerran 07:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, people. If you hate Koda Kumi then just ignore her, if you love Ayumi then go and love her. Why get into conflict? — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 08:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nooo lives. D: -XaiTerran 05:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

See look, im a good Kumi hater. I took out a vanadlism on her opage that said "She wishes she was Ayu Hamasaki!" see, im not always a bad person. I'm a hood little kumi hater.

discography edit

i made a thing in the discography section. since im not a koda fan, there are probably tons of mistakes. go fix it up. i put it there so you guys have a template kind of. it a nice thin we have on ayumi's wiki —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impracticable (talk • contribs).

"Albums" table - Time to Reach Consensus

I see that the table outlining Kumi's album sales have been repeatedly put into the page, while XaiTerran has been diligently removing the table. I see no need for such an action, so, please justify your action. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 08:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't thing it is a waste of time it should be shown within the main page every artist had some kind of an albums talbe shown on there main page. ASDFGH 18:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

XaiTerran has mentioned the peer review, and I have read it. The phrase that particularly jumped out at me was big, long lists. I think the table on the Kumi Koda page (which has incidentally been removed again) is rather compact, and it gives the casual reader a large amount of information regarding Kumi's album sales, such that the reader does not need to consult the discography page. My main point is that a brief summary is acceptable, and should not be removed. So at this point, may I request you to be a little more reasonable, and open up to public opinion? (May I mention here that your relentless removal of the table is brewing an edit war) — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 07:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response, I generally don't check discussion pages cause they're so hardly ever posted on. I just don't think it's reasonable to put up a chart for the albums up, cause then it leads to the question of why we don't post a chart of the singles up as well. -XaiTerran 03:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point, but see, singles are less important than albums since it's a work of smaller magnitude, so there's hardly a need to have any information for specific singles. My idea is this: Keep the table for a brief idea of Kumi's works and sales, so that the casual reader can get an overview without having to enter the discog page. If the reader wants in-depth info, he can visit the discog page. I object to the list growing extensively long, but I think the table at this length is a help more than a hindrance. (My whole point: Make things as easy as possible for the reader.) — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 07:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation Whatevers.

Since the recent "let's mark everything uncited!" wave of edits, I simply deleted all entries marked as needing a citation because, well, there isn't any available citation for any of them, otherwise I would have provided one in the first place. So, there will just be a brief summary of her first five years as a singer. I also renamed the most recent section of the article to "Post Black Cherry Era" because "Best ~Bounce & Lovers~" is not the defining work or even scope of her new work, so please do not change the title back.

Also, I really don't like the discography template being red. It's really ugly and I don't think the color scheme of that table goes well together. Can we PLEASE change the color to something else? That person who changed it to red is probably going to revert it back to red, so eh.

Any questions? Suggestions? Say it. —XaiTerran 04:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I felt like removing the tags myself... Bit irritating... As for the discog table, I don't quite like the new color either, but I think we should start a poll to see what the community thinks (it's all about consenseous). — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 07:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Good job Xai. I think we should change the colour from red to something less bright. I think that a lot of people will agree with you in changing the colour. Btw, are there any translated interviews that Kumi has? Maybe would could incorporate some of her interviews into the article. X2RADialbomber 08:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Page Movement & Other Things

Sooooo, can we move the page from Kumi Koda to Koda Kumi? Yay or nay? If nay, why not?

Also, what do we do about the profile image? I've no idea what to do, cause it seems anything I upload violates some kind of rule so I don't even bother trying anymore. We really need a profile image for her.

Then there's the issue of her career before she became big. There is absolutely NOTHING on her before Best ~first things~. I would rather include an informative, detailed section on her than some sloppy summary I just did. The only source I know that would work is a television special on Koda that aired quite a while ago that displayed her struggles towards becoming a singer. However, the video is not in circulation anymore, and there is no one to translate it.

The grading of the article also bothers me; if anything, I would really, really like the article to be graded an A, at least that. More improvements need to be made to the article, I know, but any suggestions at all?

--XaiTerran 19:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

In order to be a grade A, it needs to be a good article. As for the image, we are trying to fetch a free image, that is, an image with no strict copyrights, like the one at Ayumi Hamasaki or the one at Utada Hikaru (although it is being discussed right now). Finally, about the name, from what I see the article should stay at Kumi Koda. The article about Hamasaki is not Hamasaki Ayumi, but Ayumi Hamasaki, to put an example. -- ReyBrujo 20:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So what about the discussion up on top? I think some have a good point-- when Avex releases her products, they blatantly write her name out as Koda Kumi, and especially since Koda Kumi is a "nickname". Ayumi writes her name as "Ayumi Hamasaki" and Utada Hikaru has hers as it is written on her discog instead of "Hikaru Utada". -XaiTerran 21:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

According to this, For a modern figure (a person born from the first year of Meiji (1868) onward), always use the Western order of given name + family name for Western alphabet, and Japanese style family name+<space>+given name for Japanese characters. And according to this, In the case of an actor, athlete, author, artist or other individual who is more well known under a pseudonym, use the pseudonym as the article title, and note the additional names they may use (e.g., birth name, other pseudonyms), following the standards above. If the individual is more well known by family name + given name, a redirect for that should be used as well, and the article should note the multiple ways the name is used. Personally, Kumi Koda is used because of the first rule, but if the pseudonym is Koda Kumi instead, it could be moved. It depends in whether there are consensus or not, you can try asking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan. -- ReyBrujo 21:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd support the page movement because I would prioritise accuracy over the Manual of Style. Regarding the video on her past, I personally feel that, with the internet, nothing is out of circulation. Maybe if you could give the title of that show, and some other information, we could all work together to find it. As for a free image, if you asked around at fan sites you'd very probably be able to find a photo taken by a fan. — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 05:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, good luck! The show is called "KINSMA" and the Japanese title is 「中居正広の金曜日のスマたちへ」. Official website, http://www.tbs.co.jp/kinsma —XaiTerran 00:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey I see talk of moving the page, are we taking into effect that Kumi Koda is a stage name? Ourdestiny 09:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

What's with the headline things in the artical????

What in the world is with the titles like "Into a Dark Cherry" and "Leaving the Pits of the Dark Cherry"?? She doesn't have anything called dark cherry does she??? It's confusing and I suggest that it be put like EVERY OTHER artist's page and be called "Black Cherry Era (date here)" (or to that effect) I understand trying to liven up a page but please this is an encyclipedia, and those titles would confuse people who didn't know anything about her. Please? Ourdestiny 09:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh I have to agree. In my eyes these subsection titles are not really good for an encyclopedia article. I suggest just going back to how it was or just using the year instead of the album title... X2RADialbomber 12:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

True, but like XaiTerran says, there really is very little information in certain eras... I do prefer the old way though... — 0612 (TALK); Posted: 03:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)