Talk:Sathya Sai Baba

Please start a new discussion at the bottom of this page

Impossible Resolution

I firmly KNOW that Sathya Sai Baba is, in fact, an Avatar, just like Krishna. For those who do not have the experience needed to afirm this, I make a question: what IF it is true that He IS a manifestation of God as human? IF this is true, THEN this article will never be "encyclopedic" as it should, because in this case, to be a good article, it should mention, clearly and with all simplicity: Sathya Sai Baba is a Purna Avatar - God in human form - which came to restablish Dharma on Earth.

A New Beginning

Now that this article has been through two ArbCom decisions, I believe that it is now the time to say goodbye to the old attitudes of personal attacks, assumption of bad faith and so on. Now is the time to usher in the new era of loving, thoughtful and peaceful collaborations that will help to make this article one of Wikipedia's best. Editors need to work together (regardless of affiliations) and without needless edit-wars according to the ideals of Wikipedia that foster a positive environment for work on an encyclopaedic entry on Sathya Sai Baba, one of India's best-known gurus. So hopefully this goal can be achieved through the necessary eforts and striving for that achievement. Ekantik ^talk 02:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Too bad it came to this. But we ought to be able to balance the differing viewpoints and arrive at an encyclopedic article now.--Dseer 06:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As per hinduism the only Avataar in KaliYuga is Kalki!

Infobox vs. template

I think the infobox should be removed and we should only keep the template? What do you think about it? Krystian 20:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In view of benefiting the article layout, I do not think that the template offers any significant benefit other than offering a long list of people who are influenced by or opposed to SSB and a few connected articles, so I would vote to remove it from the article. The infobox contains salient information that ought to be kept as "boom" information about SSB.

However, it would be a shame to waste the work that went into the template. So I strongly suggest that the template be converted into a footer-template which can be added to the bottom of the page and all other connected pages. I think this would be a much better way of going about things, and I think this is how it is done on Wikipedia as a whole so it would be good to maintain consistency across the Wikipedian board. Ekantik ^talk 02:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Rather like {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} for example, but needs to be appropriate modified for SSB obviously. Ekantik ^talk 04:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That seems better to me. --Dseer 06:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It may need to be coloured orange to be consistent with Hindu-oriented articles. Not necessarily orange, as appropriate templates have their own class program. In the meantime take a look at User:Ekantik/Template_Sandbox (bottom) to see how I'm modifying an appropriate template that is simultaneously relevant to SSB and yet maintaining consistency across Wikipedia. Ekantik ^talk 19:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And by the way SSB is a religious leader, not a philosopher, so we may have to think about replacing that infobox with a "Hindu slant" as suggested on that page. Perhaps some co-ordination with members of WP:HINDU would be required. I'll get on it right away. Ekantik ^talk 19:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, done! Check it out: {{Sathya Sai Baba}} Ekantik ^talk 05:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the current infobox, it is an easy reference. Often times one only seeks a quick reference and doesn't want to read a full article. PEACETalkAbout 05:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Point of order, in the new infobox, one can't tell the current devotees, from the opponents/apostates?!? An oversight perhaps? PEACETalkAbout 05:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is nothing wrong with the infobox except that it may need to be converted into the official "religious leaders" box, but that's another matter.

Regarding the placement of the followers and opponents together, that is intentional as the heading ("Followers and opponents") is general. It is too much of a hassle to create separate categories for everything inside a template especially when there aren't enough Wikipedia articles to merit it. I may as well create a new section called "Locations" just to put in the two Prashanthi Nilayam and Puttaparthi articles, there's no point in that as it fits well in the "Other" section. It's also good to maintain consistency across Wikipedia, I'm not aware of any other template that has separate categories for opponents and critics of any particular thing. I may be wrong of course so please feel free to point one out of it exists. Ekantik ^talk 06:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps in the future when there are enough articles to merit separate categories then we can include them of course. But for now it seems fine to go with it as it stands, just to provide an easy reference guide of associated articles for interested readers. Ekantik ^talk 06:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As there are no objections, I'll start including the new template at the bottom of connected articles and remove the obsolete one soon. Ekantik ^talk 02:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Some sources that could be explored

Copied from ArbCom case talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• New Religious Movements in Western Europe: An Annotated Bibliography, Elisabeth Arweck, Peter B. Clarke; Greenwood Press, 1997
• Hinduism in Modern Indonesia: Between Local, National, and Global Interests, Martin Ramstedt; RoutledgeCurzon, 2003
• Hindu Selves in a Modern World: Guru Faith in the Mata Amritanandamayi Mission, Maya Warrier; RoutledgeCurzon, 2005
• Many Globalizations: Cultural Diversity in the Contemporary World, Peter L. Berger, Samuel P. Huntington; Oxford University Press, 2003
• Water, Wood, and Wisdom: Ecological Perspectives from the Hindu Traditions, Journal article by Vasudha Narayanan; Daedalus, Vol. 130, 2001
• Anomalies of Consciousness: Indian Perspectives and Research, Journal article by K. Ramakrishna Rao; The Journal of Parapsychology, Vol. 58, 1994
• Odd Gods: New Religions and the Cult Controversy, James R. Lewis; Prometheus Books, 2001
• Media and the Transformation of Religion in South Asia, Lawrence A. Babb, Susan S. Wadley; University of Pennsylvania Press, 1995
• South Asian Religions in the Americas: An Annotated Bibliography of Immigrant Religious Traditions, John Y. Fenton; Greenwood Press, 1995
• Klass, MortonSinging with Sai Baba: The Politics of Revitalization in Trinidad, Westview Press, 1991 ISBN 0813379695
• The Sathya Sai Baba community in Bradford : its origin and development, religious beliefs and practices, Dept. of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Leeds, 1988.
• McKean, Lise, Divine enterprise : Gurus and the Hindu Nationalist Movement ISBN 0226560090 and ISBN 0226560104
• Steel, Brian, 3 Annotated Bibliographies on Sathya Sai Baba (Academic, Critical, Apologetic), on http//bdsteel.tripod.com/More/ [These extensive Bibliographies deal with 8 of the items on this list and many others not consulted or acknowledged by contributors to this article.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spirosp (talk • contribs) 05:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
• White, Charles, SJ, The Sai Baba Movement: Approaches to the Study of India Saints, The Journal of Asian Studies, 1972, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Aug., 1972), pp. 863-878
• Bann, LA Babb, Lawrence A , Sathya Sai Baba's Magic, Anthropological Quarterly, 1983, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Jul., 1983), pp. 116-124
• Hawley, John S. (Ed.), Saints and Virtues, University of California Press (1987), ISBN 0520061632
• Urban, H. B. Avatar for Our Age: Sathya Sai Baba and the Cultural Contradictions of Late Capitalism, Academic Press, 2003, Vol 33; part 1, pages 73-94
• Swallow D. A., Ashes and Powers: Myth, Rite and Miracle in an Indian God-Man's Cult, Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 16, No. 1 (1982), pp. 123-158
• Sangha, Dave & Kumar Sahoo, Ajaya, Social work, spirituality, and diasporic communities : The case of the sathya sai baba movement, Journal of Religion & Spirituality in Social Work, 2005, vol. 24, no4, pp. 75-88, Haworth Press
• Kent, Alexandra, Creating Divine Unity: Chinese Recruitment in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Journal of Contemporary Religion, Volume 15, Number 1 / January 1, 2000
• Kent, Alexandra, Divinity, Miracles and Charity in the Sathya Sai Baba Movement of Malaysia, Ethons, 2004, Taylor and Francis
• Spurr, M. J., Visiting cards revisited: An account of some recent first-hand observations of the "miracles" of Sathya Sai Baba, and an Investigation into the role of the miraculous in his theology, Journal of Religion and Psychical Research, 2003, Vol 26; Oart 4, pp.198-216
• Lee, Raymond, Sai Baba, salvation and syncretism, Contributions to Indian Sociology, Vol. 16, No. 1, 125-140 (1982) SAGE Publications
• Hummel, Reinhart, Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba, Materialdienst der EZW, 47 Jahrgang, 1 February 1984. available online in English
• Sullivan, Michael, C., In Search of a Perfect World: A Historical Perspective on the Phenomenon of Millennialism And Dissatisfaction With the World As It Is, Authorhouse (2005), ISBN 978-1420841619
• Hansen, George P. The Trickster and the Paranormal, Xlibris Corporation (2001), ISBN 1401000827
• Bowker, John, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions; 1997; (Contains an entry on Sai Baba)
• Stallings, Stephanie, Avatar of Stability, Harvard International Review, June 22, 2000

Bookstore link

I went to the trouble of joining the Meta-Wiki to get the bookstore link blacklisted, it has been. Let's hope that this is the end of the continual spamming. Ekantik ^talk 02:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Abdul Kalam?

Abdul Kalam, a Sathya Sai Baba follower? Really? Can anybody cite a source where he admits this?

Good point. It is said frequently that Kalam is SSB-follower. I have also heard that he used to teach in SSB's colleges in the 1970s, but it depends on reliable sources for citation. Ekantik ^talk 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither Professor Haraldsson nor Arnold Schulman (the latter possibly deceased) are (or were) followers of SSB. Read their books. Devotees often make claims like this. Brian 19 June 2007

Don't listen to this Brian; he is Brian Steel - an online public critic and defamer of Sathya Sai Baba!! Of course Kalam, Schulman, Haraldsson ets. are followers of SSB. Kkrystian 15:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am the messenger but please pay attention to the message. And check this by doing the necessary reading. You will find that in their books on SSB, neither Schulman nor Professor Haraldsson claim devoteeship. In the separate case of President Kalam, since he is a very high profile Indian Muslim, it is doubtful that he has made a committed statement of being the devotee of a Hindu guru who claims to be God. As to the strong accusation of defamer, in the absence of any shred of evidence, it should surely be instantly dismissed by less emotional readers.

In connection with such subjective Wikipedia postings as the one referred to, it appears obvious that, on topics which are controversial, if writers were obliged to sign statements with their real names, such Wikipedia entries would be much improved and a lot of time would be saved by not having to refute or revert empty or provocative charges or other dubious statements made by people sheltering comfortably behind the anonymity of a pseudonym. Brian Steel, 3 August 2007

---

Is Former president Kalam Follower of SSB??

 This is really a doubt as no references have been provided to justify it.Also i would like to point that the names viz President Kalam, Michael Nobel mentioned in the article has ppl present for the Function. Thís need not make them followers of SSB. Hence, the tone of that subsection aslo needs to be modified is its quite misleading. Or correct refrences must be provided.

(Asro 11:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC))

saint

Well yes, but it is original research and personal opinion to make a statement about SSB's alleged sainthood. He is widely regarded as a saint and reported to be such in numerous reliable sources. I think a disputation of this status as relating to this article's categorisation is a bit much, this article ought to be categorised properly. If reliable sources report SSB as a Hindu saint, he is a Hindu saint. Ekantik ^talk 00:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, can Krishna be called a Hindu saint? Krystian 18:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it depends if you can find a reliable reference/source that refers to Krishna as a saint, although I wouldn't think so because AFAIK even neutral sources describe Krishna as God or an incarnation of some sort. Ekantik ^talk 18:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

questions

Gravely concerning questions about the guru being involved in pedophilia raised by a family of followers from Little Rock. Arkansas were aired in a BBC documentary a couple of years ago. Any comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.101.244.9 (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

The longstanding farce of the Wikipedia Sathya Sai Baba article continues to damage Wikipedia's increasingly precarious reputation on controversial topics, especially in the face of the recent inauguration of Citizendium. Brian Steel, please get a reality check on yourself. If you do not believe something fine, dont do so but stop making such nefarious claims about somebody who is revered by millions. You did not build a hospital which treats millions free of cost, you did not build places of education which educates many young people, you did not provide drinking water to millions, he did. I presume that you would have gotten the message by now. So please utilise your energies elsewhere wherein you could be more useful to mankind. - Rags Can someone responsible - if any such Wikipedial entities are overseeing these comedic entries - please check why, under the new editorial management (the poacher becomes the gamekeeper!), my 2 hagiographical books on Sathya Sai Baba - while I was devotee - are cited not once but TWICE in the References and my 5 years of serious and unchallenged critical writings as an ex-devotee are dismissed as "research"? Brian Steel 22 April 2007.

Salon.com

Hi,

I saw the magazine Salon.com mentioned in the 'Criticism and replies' section, and just wanted to establish basically what it is. I got the info from the Wikipedia entry for Salon.com, and of course readers can just click on the link right before the comment in parentheses for more in-depth info.

Ani 00:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Michael Nobel

Hi,

  I believe Michael Nobel is the great grand nephew of Alfred Nobel and not his son. 

Citation: http://www.vsi.net/bio_nobel.aspx Gvinayak 16:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

That is one little step closer to the truth. Moreover, Dr Nobel is not a philanthropic "patron" of SSB but a high-ranking member of the management team of WorldSpace: "Michael Nobel has served as a director of WorldSpace and its predecessors since 2001." (http://investor.worldspace.com) Brian 3 August 2007

Criticism section?

What happen to the criticism section? It evaporated? I do not mind of the criticism is incorporated throughout the article, but deleting all the material is no proper. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have restored it. Please incorporate in the main text and NPOV as needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, Thank you for noticing that. I was just starting to do my research and wanted to bring this very subject up. So, I thank you for your efforts and fully agree with you here. I have learned that UNESCO pulled its support and once I have the citations I will incorporate that into the article so it will have a more balanced point of view. Yes, I agree with your that it is not proper to delete all the criticism considering that one report states that the US travel advisory is specifically due to Sai Baba, although not stated on the travel advisory. PEACETalkAbout 01:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Talking of UNESCO, here: http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/unesco-withdraws.html are the true reasons why it withdrew. Kkrystian 07:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[Stupid comment removed] by: Kkrystian 08:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

These type of comments are not useful. I will add some pointers to your talk page so you can be informed about how this project works. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Name Usage

In the whole article, there a instances where the the name Sai Baba is used instead of Sathya Sai baba. 

Personally, reading through it feels like reading about Sai Baba(Shirdi), which is misleading and does not do good this article. hence its my request to plzz edit the name to Sathya Sai baba and avoid confusion of readers.

(Asro 12:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC))

"Now we have Sathya Geetha in the place of Sai Geetha"

The sentence above is taken from the article. It is not appropriately marked as a quote (if that's what it is), nor is the source indicated. Therefore, a reader familiar with the punctuation conventions must come to the conclusion that the author of that particular passage is referring to him/herself. (A reader who is not familiar with punctuation will simply be confused as to WHO exactly is the "we" referred to.)

Please, correct the passage.

Deletion?

I have reverted a deletion which was not explained.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to remove all sexual allegation references.

The sexual allegations have no basis in truth. I am not a Sai devotee (I'm not even Hindu) but enough research online shows that some spiteful people just have some resentment that they show by making up allegations. Lawsuits have failed because of the lack of evidence on this subject. Just because he has technically been criticized, it is misleading to quote the allegations as a possibility. By putting it in the criticism section (even with the responses section), it says that the reader is allowed to make up their own mind. The courts have made up their mind and decided the allegations had no basis in truth. Why slander a guy with fake allegations? My proof is coming from http://www.saisathyasai.com/Rahm-Public-Court-Records/ as well as other google searches. I'm not completely familiar with all the WP:RULES but I feel like there are rules against putting information just because it's true - i.e. "According to the BBC reporter Tanya Datta, a lot of sexual abuse victims have undergone a genital oiling by Sathya Sai Baba that they believe is part of Hinduism." Just because it's true that Tanya Datta said that, it doesn't mean the information should be up there. It's misleading and seems to be put there intentionally to make people think it must be true because the BBC said it. That would be like quoting Jayson Blair's NYT articles.

Therefore, I suggest we remove all references to it, both in criticism and response section.

Agree 75.100.89.19 (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Kkrystian (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. You violate your own purpose by stating at the outset "...no basis in truth", which shows that you have a fundamental disconnect with our Wiki-purpose. We report the sources, we combine and show the situation as reporters. *Truth* is not relevant to what we do. Perhaps you could start again and rephrase your suggestion in terms of source-reporting. Wjhonson (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate links

Continuing to re-add inappropriate external links (without properly explaining why they should be included in the first place) is a possible violation of WP:EL. Links that are non-English, picture sites that don't offer anything useful to the article, and personal websites are frowned upon by Wikipedia policy. Also, saisathyasai.com is a heavily critical and partisan site that is explicitly mentioned in the ArbCom resolution as inappropriate, and was discussed among all editors and agreed not to be included. Why is this being re-included?

I have brought this up on Kkrystian's talk-page as well. We could be dealing with a possible ArbCom violation here, aside from the "small" issue of edit-warring: 1, 2. Since these types of links are explicitly mentioned as violations of WP:EL, I have decided to remove them again while bringing this up on the talk-page for further discussion. Then we can decide where to go. - Ekantik ^talk 20:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Kkrystian has reverted yet again, but decided to keep the link to saisathyasai.com. As mentioned previously, this website is highly critical and partisan and contains original research (thus violation of WP:EL and WP:OR). This issue was the subject of two ArbCom proceedings, and it was ultimately agreed among all main editors that this link was not to be included. Why is this being re-added in violation of ArbCom decisions?

Kkrystian is also refusing to discuss the matter as brought up on his talk-page. Ekantik ^talk 21:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the external link to saisathyasai.com because, apart from violating the ArbCom decision, it is also a heavily partisan and critical site that contains much original research, and is thus a violation of WP:EL. Ekantik ^talk 01:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

THis website is perfectly OK. Please quote a particular part of the ArbCom rulings that it violates before removing it. Kkrystian (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I too would like to see more substantial arguments. Thanks. Avb 15:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

PS Note that I have followed three related ArbCom cases (whose outcomes I've just reread) and know this is not straightforward. To me the main question is whether or not the site qualifies as a WP:SPS and whether or not it itself quotes reliable sources on any contentious issues. In addition, the existence, aims, etc. of the site might warrant mention in the article depending on coverage about the site in reliable sources and assessment per WP:WEIGHT. It would, for example, be interesting to know if Sathya Sai Baba has an opinion on the site. Insofar as the site publishes biographical material, its inclusion is also governed by WP:BLP. Avb 15:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Avb. Perhaps it may be a good idea to skim through some of the talk-page archives to see previous discussions on this issue. I don't know how many more substantial arguments I can bring: This site has been a cause of problems for this article for as long as I can remember. The most important thing is that it offers next to nothing in the way of "defending" SSB but a significant part of it is libellous and defamatory towards other people. It does not quote reliable sources and itself is a construction of original research. it has also not been reported in third-party sources. It is a personal website of an individual (who actually was an editor here before he got banned indefinitely) that represents a one-man campaign to defend SSB from accusations of impropriety.

Also, as Kkrystian admits below, it is a "pro" site = partisanship. It violates WP:EL and adds nothing to the article, which is long overdue for a major revamp. - Ekantik ^talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for filling in some finer points I might have missed. I've had this article on my watchlist for quite some time so know the broader lines of its history as well as the details of the latest (hopefully last) ArbCom case connected with it. FWIW, I tried to give some general pointers here, because the discussion on te admissibility of the link, in addition to interpreting ArbCom rulings, seemed to center more on disputes between editors based on real-life issues than on the source and policy based approach we have to prevent such animosity. I hope that you and Kkrystian will be able to agree on the correct course to follow. As you've commented below, that includes leaving out guesses regarding other editors' thoughts/feelings/reasons/motivation/etc. As to WP:EL, a partisan site can be used if we make clear to the reader how partisan it is (provided it meets the other WP requirements). Avb 13:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see, I thought I've seen you somewhere around in the past but I wasn't sure. Have we discussed before? Anyhow, I haven't really got a problem with other editors and am more interested in constructing a good article. It is unfortunate that other editors seem interested in attacking me, which I have duly reported. I have been away for some months due to real-life pressures but hopefully I will be here regularly to make good on my promises to improve the article.

As for the link, I did not know that partisan sites were allowed under certain cirucmstances. I only fear that other editors will step in and demand to link to partisan sites that expound the opposite view (that SSB is guilty as charged) which will lead to all sorts of problems again. As I said, I'm not interested much in these tit-for-tat issues because I firmly believe that Wikipedia is not a battleground, but I genuinely think that this problem can be avoided by not including such links at all given that they have caused so much disruption in the past. That includes any link that expounds a particular agenda from any side. I think the main issue is to rewrite the article to make it much neater and clearer to read, as well as making sure that statements are well-sourced. For example, you can take a look at what I've done with Puttaparthi, which was screaming with fancruft and has been brought down to a more acceptable encyclopaedic level.

Anyway I'm rambling on. I think the veracity of the site can be gleaned by perusing it. It contains next-to-nothing by way of "defending" SSB despite its claims to do so, and has much in the way of defamatory remarks against other living people, some of whom are editors here on Wikipedia. I don't think counter-attacks qualify as "defence", but aside from my statements that it violates several WP policies, I;m still not convinced that it contributes anything of merit to the article. May I ask what you think? Thanks, Ekantik ^talk 18:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite remember if we've interacted before; I think I responded to a request about a source in a language I'm fluent in. Regarding partisan sites: they still need to conform to our policies. What I think: I would be very surprised if sufficient sources are available to make the site satisfy our various policies. But editor opinion is not the way to convince someone who believes the exact opposite. It's better to use policy-based arguments. E.g. ask for additional sources. The site could be interesting to our readers if relevance to the subject's notability is shown. Avb 20:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The link does not in any way violate WP:BLP (it is a pro site). Ekantik hasn't pointed out the true reason for his removal but the true reason is known to me. It is because of this sectioin <URL removed per WP:BLP by Avb> of the website that exposes his identity & deception. There is no known opinion of Sathya Sai Baba on the site. Kkrystian (talk) 17:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not appreciate personal attacks, Kkrsytian. Comment on content, not on contributors. Ekantik ^talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding WP:BLP, the problem is not (or not primarily) that the site makes assertions about Sathya Sai Baba; it does, however, make many assertions about other living people. It is such assertions WP:BLP does not allow if they are not also found in reliable secondary sources. So, in addition to your opinion that the site can be linked, you need to show that the site has used such sources, certainly for the pages only one click away from the linked page. Has it? Avb 22:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No it hasn't. A quick look at some of the talk-page archives will inform readers as to the nature of the site, and why this was such a problem that eventually led to two ArbCom cases. I can't help thinking that continued inclusion of this site is nothing but provocation and promotion of an agenda, especially as all editors agreed to keep it out at the time of the last ArbCom. This issue is certainly complicated, as any admin who has stepped in this issue will tell you. Ekantik ^talk 05:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It remains possible (though unlikely; I've taken a good look at the site) that editors will provide sufficient additional sources to include the site one way or another. There is no reason to talk about agendas, obvious as they may seem; all that's required is good sources as indicated above, without which inclusion of the site anywhere on Wikipedia would violate the NPOV, V, NOR and BLP policies. Yes, I've seen others remark on how complicated these issues are but hope they can be unraveled. Avb 13:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly the point, Avb, there are no good sources used on the site. The site is itself a massive piece of original research. I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence, could you please clarify? Thanks, Ekantik ^talk 18:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Original research is no longer OR as soon as acceptable sources where the assertions can be verified and to whom they can be attributed are provided by WP editors. As such, "there are no sources" is not convincing. What is convincing is the silence when the editor who wants to include the link is asked for such sources. Avb 20:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Appropriate infobox?

Before I would like to begin major rewrites (as per my late assurances), what do editors think of the current 'philosopher' infobox? I realise this is a bit of an old issue but I think it is just as important as it was before. I think that the current 'philosopher' infobox is inappropriate because:

1. SSB is not a philosopher
2. SSB doesn't really have any notable ideas to speak of
3. There is a long list of people he has supposedly influenced, which is already handled by the template at the bottom of the article which is also placed on all SSB-related articles.
4. The 'philosopher' infobox is meant for individuals who actually made a contribution to the field of philosophy with their "original" ideas, such as Immanuel Kant, Jean-Paul Sartre, Réné Descartes, etc. SSB does not figure in this category because he has not made any significant contribution to philosophy by his own admission.
5. I think the religious leader infobox is more appropriate for SSB with the correct Hinduism colour code that is related to Hinduism-oriented articles throughout Wikipedia.

I'll give this a day or so to see if anyone has any thoughts and then I'll go ahead and do it. - Ekantik ^talk 02:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

An alternative infobox may be the Hindu leader infobox, which is slightly more detail with reference to guru (none), philosophy (Advaita Vedanta?), etc. - Ekantik ^talk 02:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have decided to Be BOLD and go ahead with this proposed change. WP:BOLD advises that if pages can be improved then to do so immediately. There will be no significant loss of information since most of the fields are redundant in application to SSB (his having no notable ideas etc), and I have outlined some more reasons above why the current infobox is inappropriate. If anyone disagrees then maybe we can talk about it with a view to making this article more encycolopaedic, even if infoboxes serve no real purpose aside from making the article look pretty. - Ekantik ^talk 02:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Where can we verify assertions such as "is not a philosopher"? Or, conversely, are there sources where we can verify the opposite opinion? Thanks. Avb 22:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a good question. I'm not immediately aware of any impartial biographical information on SSB which speaks specifically about his philosophy. As a religious leader he does discuss philosophy as a matter of spiritual discourse, but he has not been recognised to have made a significant contribution to the field of philosophy à la Descartes, Wittgenstein, Kant, etc. To be honest I'm not even sure his philosophy counts as straight "Advaita Vedanta" (as per infobox), as he does not subscribe to the orthodox/official tenets of that philosophy, but has his own version of it. Ekantik ^talk 05:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Having said that, the infobox should follow the article text, currently: a guru from southern India, religious leader, orator and philosopher often described as a godman and a miracle worker -- this supports the box proposed by Ekantik. Avb 23:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)