Talk:Shankill Butchers

It is always a problem to have a balanced article when dealing with a recent conflict, after all the points made by the writer of British Killing Machine can all be easily refuted with a contra explanation, e.g state forces withdrew from republican areas at night due to the terror campaign waged against them. Similarly the claim that British forces enabled the work of the Butchers is rather negated by the claim that the state had abandoned these areas.

This article does, however, use language that it deliberately negative, the common tactic used to denigrate combatants one disaproves of, whilst the description of the IRA and republicans is deliberatly neutral, thus encouraging the reader to tacitly sympathise with their position (see example below).

There are no real winners in a war, especially in a civil war and even more so when the war is conducted by criminal gangs. Neither sides defenders have a great deal to commend them, but neither does either side have any excuse for what is inexcusable, starting an entirely pointless conflict and carrying on with it despite the pointlessness becoming more and more obvious as EU expansion has rendered individual states far less important than they once were. Fetu's dad (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Please rewrite the following article in accordance with our NPOV guidelines. --Ed Poor 16:44 Nov 26, 2002 (UTC)

The Shankill Butchers were a group of loyalists who abducted innocent Catholics, tortured them, and then mutilated them and let them bleed to death. The group were all members of the UVF. They were led by Lenny Murphy, a person who in his youth was beaten for having a Catholic-sounding last name, and soon turned from a bully himself, to a petty criminal, to a Serial killer. The other people in the Butchers were William Moore, Robert "Basher" Bates, "Big Sam" McAllister and others. Lenny Murphy was killed in 1982 by the IRA after more than 30 murders. It should be noted that Murphy also killed some Protestants too. However, he possessed a hatred of Catholics, shown in how he cruised Catholic areas to find victims.

References

"The Shankill Butchers" by Martin Dillon.

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The article makes these guys sound like a bunch of thugs. I appreciate the rewrite, and my only worry is the reliance on a single source. I mean, did anyone actually witness the skinning or hear the taunts? --Cousin Eddie

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It's well documented in the book: in the second killing a women heard someone screaming "kill me", and so on, the bodies were found, it was done in front of a club at times, they confessed the murders and how they were done, and so on and so forth.

Lenny Murphy

I went to School (Boys Model) with Lenny Murphy. He was a violent thug throughout his time and his aggression had nothing to do with his name.He carried a knife then and wasn't afraid to use it.

Murphy is not an uncommon Protestant name. Murphy was a psychopath and his murder of a young Protestant in front of an audience is as cold and as calculated as Sadam's 'cleansing' of his parliament were the MPs are taken out and shot. This sort of behaviour is not learnt.

Murphy murdered two friends of mine from my childhood and tried to stab me. He was definately mudered by the IRA but it was in arrangement with the many loyalists who wanted him finished. The IRA and Loyalists often helped each other out in killing members who had gotten out of control.

I hope those days are over

I think that the article (as I was when I read it right now -- it may be different as you read this) is completely, 100% accurate and very well-written. I'm not sure that it's NPOV and encyclopedic. I don't have a better idea or a constructive suggestion. Ben-w 10:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

How do you have a npov on the Shankhill Butchers?

Suggestions?

British Killing Machine

My uncle was "butchered" by these animals and I lived through that evil period. It was obvious to us (people in the republican areas) at the time that these people where brought into the areas and and brought out again. They could drive anywhere in Belfast (areas where black taxis did not go - the New Lodge for example) pick up a Catholic, drive across Belfast (drunk out of their minds) and committ their murders (in front of crowd no less)!!

As soon as it would get dark, the helicopters would dissappear, the army foot patrols stopped, the RUC landrovers would not be seen and they (the Butchers) would be allowed in to cruise the streets. They where a killing machine under British control - special branch, army intelligence, UDR, RUC - take your pick as regards who they worked for. It was the apex of a general policy to terrorize, humiliate and punish the republican areas that has never been thoroughly exposed or studied - rubbish was left for weeks on end uncollected in the summer, fine old Victorian houses where bulldozed to be replaced by army designed hovels, the M1 was driven through the middle of Catholic areas creating an urban hellhole, the most innocent and harmless (old and young) where treated like filth and scum in their own homes and areas etc.

Its a comic irony that the same people had the IRA execute Murphy. It was common knowledge in Belfast the morning he was shot that Murphy was going to get whacked that day!! The common British soldier on the street was openly talking about it hours before.

On top of that Martin Dillon was conned in to writing a complete whitewash of a book. The plucky, under-resourced cops finally exposing the truth!? A complete travesty. Those famous Belfast "dogs in the street" knew exactly who was involved in this at the time.

Once upon a time all these notions would have been easily dismissed as the rantings of an aggrieved relative. But with ongoing hard evidence on collusion, Stakeknife, Denis Donaldson, etc. it all seems pretty straightforward and obvious.

The extent of the corruption that Northern Ireland is mired in is simply staggering. The Shankill Butchers were an eruption of that smouldering pit of hatred. Thank God I'm out of it.

Setanta1

That is all possible, given what is now coming out about the extent of collusion, but I'm sure you can understand we can't put it into the aticle unless we have concrete and verifiable proof.

Jdorney 11:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Evidence For These Claims?

This article is in desperate need of respectable sources. For example, pretty much every hit on google for "Francis Crossan" links to this wikipedia article, and the article also mentions things said to him by the killers which sound pretty unverifiable. Do we have any sourced authorities confirming that all the events mentioned in the article actually happened?

edit: http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/shankill_butchers/3.html discusses most of the claims made, but it doesnt give any sources either (despite a lot of waffling about 'sources at the time' and the like). It seems to be relying completely on the Dillon book; do we have any idea how reputable it is? Does anyone own it?

Decemberists??

Is there a reason that the Decemberists are listed as a source? I'm a hardcore fan of theirs, but it is ridiculous that they are in the article. Also seems slightly disrespectful considering the magnitude and horror of the Butcher's crimes. If I remember, I will take it out in a week or so, depending on responses. If someone else wants to take it out before then, please do as I'm likely to forget.

There is a song on their latest album, "The Crane Wife", entitled "The Shankill Butchers", and the song is indeed about these men.

How does having a song make the Decemberists a source?

The song certainly shouldn't be a reference. Maybe create a "in popular culture" subsection, and list it and the 1998 movie "Resurrection Man"?

The song is definitely not a reference. When you look at the lyrics [1], it's structured like a mother's warning to her children. It's sort of, "be good or the butchers will get you" and analogous to the "Boogeyman." No information about it, so it seems more like the songwriter like the name than anything else.

In response to the above, Colin Meloy related that the song is based on the real Shankill Butchers in an interview on NPR. Kusand 06:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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