Talk:Zuko

Season 3 picture

Anyone else think it's time to update his picture to one more current? It doesn't look as if his hair will change much more, and besides, we're 1/2 way through the season, if you've seen Day of Black Sun by now. GdaMan 03:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC) GdaMan

i agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny NovA (talk • contribs) 11:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed as well, though of course no one has seen the illegally leaked Day of Black Sun yet >.> 春Harukaze風 19:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that DoBS has officially aired all over the world, I think now is a very good opportunity, to change Zuko's picture (as well as other characters' pictures). He doesn't look like that anymore, and I'm not referring to the hair, but to the emotion you see on his face. His new look is more calm, mature, and less confused, and that's the kind of picture that should be up. Not to mention, we are half-way through the final season and he is the most dynamic character. GdaMan (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)GdaMan

i also believe the same he is now a differen person a different look and besides the other is to old, we could move it somewhere else in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.157.118.28 (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Day of Black Sun spoilers

Will people please bother to check the article for spoilers? There are spoilers that need to be removed on the personality section and the relationship with Ursa section. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC) There are still spoilers on the personality section. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 17:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Now there are spoilers on the Ursa and Aang sections. Remove them. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 21:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Scar

Tears is spelled wrong in the article- it's incorrectly spelled "teers"

His scar may heal someday, as it is said that a scar lingers until the argument between the man who caused it and the man who owns it has been resolved. In other words until Zuko has claimed the throne.

Umm...........WHO says this?--Darkling235 03:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It's just speculation and theories, which are not fit for this page H2P 05:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The scar on his face will never heal. If is were going to, it would have already. ~Sayasha

Not to mention that scars fade not heal because technically scar tissue is what's left over after a wound has already healed, thus making "healing a scar" an oxymoron. And, as Sayasha already said, if his scar was going to fade it would have long ago. Raceberry 10:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think his scar will ever be healed. It's a part of him now.

• It depends. Personally, I think Zuko's scar could be used as somthing symbolic in the show, as an example of him healing from the wounds of the past (I wrote an entire multi-chaptered fanfiction about this theory, so I've been working on it for a while). Now scars CAN heal. I've had scars that are there for a few years, but they gradually fade and disappear as the tissue mends. The thing is, Zuko's scar is so large (and likely, more than skin deep), that it wouldn't completely heal on its own. There IS a possibility, however, that if Zuko ever joins the gaang, Katara could heal the scar completely with Waterbending (though I imagine it would likely be on accident). Mind you that's just a theory, completely unconfirmed, but it's still a possibility.24.154.137.15 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• sigh* Read Raceberry's post above, he wasn't pulling the scar information out of his ass. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 03:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In fairness, though, when you have a character with pseudo-magical healing powers, who knows what might happen?--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

True, but all the "Katara healing Zuko's scar" stuff is just stuff Zutara fans use in their fan-fiction. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 15:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I put a lot of stuff in my fanfiction that I don't actually think will happen (healing scar, Suki is an Earthbender, ect.). It's just for the sake of making the story interesting. Lots of people do that, actually (since you're not really big on pairings, I guess you don't read a lot of fanfiction, so...). I don't think Katara will heal Zuko's scar, but it's a possibility...besides, there ARE places in the show where real-life rules are disregarded. And, as the "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" creators once defined the rules for making a good anime show/movie, the only rule was this: "Who cares as long as it looks cool?". Oh, and yeah, I agree, with a character who has magical/Waterbending powers, who KNOWS what could happen. She unblocked a dude's CHI for goodness' sake!208.122.69.38 15:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

if you're thinking of it lodgically from the creater's point of view- it would kind of ruin the mystery of zuko... i think so any way. if you're thinking of it lodgically from the real life point of view- it would have healed by now if it was going to- my sister got fire burns (on xmas eve 2, not fun!) and they went away after like a week or two (or more... i forget). if it was going away, it would of by now.

• Not necessarily. I've had SMALL scars that are there for years before they totally fade (that's, of course, without some kind of treatment). I also know a girl who was severely burned by scolding water, and she STILL has the scars from that, and I belive that's been several years ago. Zuko's scar is HUGE, so there's no way it'd be healed by now, since it's only been three years...but I agree, it DOES ruin his mystery to heal it. I don't really think it'll happen, it's mostly Zutara fluff (YEA ZUTARA!!!), though it's not impossible.24.154.137.15 00:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• In the trailer for the Book 2 Season Finale (Which I absolutely cannot wait two weeks for!), a scene is shown where Katara is holding the amulet Pakku gave her filled with water in from the Oasis in one hand and touching his scar with the other. It's possible it could be healed during the course of the series.

I will say this ONCE and only once and after that I will not and should not have to say it again on this talk page. Ahem. THERE WILL NOT BE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT FUTURE SHOWS PUT ON THIS BIOGRAPHY UNTIL IT IS CANON (which means, when it airs). ANY ADDING OF SHIPPING, FANCRUFT, AND SPECULATION WILL BE DELETED. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• What about Harry Potter's scar. It hasn't healed, so Zuko's scar probably wont heal eather.

Did Bryan Konietzko or Michael Dante DiMartino state they would follow all everything that was written in the Harry Potter books, no, therefore you can't use them to point say something can or will happen in a completely different work of fiction. Joeking16 (talk) 21:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Season Two picture

I put the picture that I originally uploaded back, my reasoning being that it's a better crop without the giant "Nick" logo on it, and whereas the other picture was very heavily shadowed and farther away, this one is clear, closer-up, you can see his scar better, and it's just an all-around better picture, IMO. Not to mention it depicts Zuko looking ornery, but determined which I think is a very good representation of his general character as opposed to the other picture where he's more or less staring forward expressionlessly. Raceberry 05:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Any picture of Zuko is fine with me. :-)

Hair Color

You guys are always going to find something to start an edit war over aren't you. Alright, we'll have a vote to close next Friday. Is it Brown or is it Black? The problem comes in that in Book One, it was easily black. However, since growing his hair it looks lighter. However, I'm going to blame this new light color on his constant shaving of it and/or the dust and dirt he now surrounds himself with. So I vote Black H2P 06:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Black for reasons above. --Crisu 13:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Black; ditto. Prototime 05:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I vote Black aswell --redsparta 05:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I vote black too

Black. Raceberry 11:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Brown...just kidding...black

It's BROWN you idiots —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.69.141 (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

No to say much, but when he was younger, his hair was Brown, even before he was banished. Now, it could be coming back to it's normal color..... Just saying. ~Sayasah

I agree with all of you... I vote Black. His hair does look brown when he is younger, but I think it is because of the constant sunlight he was in when he was younger. I mean, he lived in the Fire Nation, if he wasn't in the sun he was around some other constant source of light or fire. And besides, it's always sunny there, save for night time. When he was banished, he spent a lot of his time in his room as well, so the sun couldn't bleach his hair. Now, as in second season, he is outside a lot more, probably due to the fact that he is a traveler and doesn't have a room to hide in. The sun actually has some time to bleach his hair. + the dirt thing, that too. But in secret of the fire nation, you could tell if you looked close enough that his hair was black. Still, please people, don't go pressing your noses against the tv...you know....don't wanna be responsible for any eye-trauma...~Zutara-Princess--Don't forget th rabies! Everything tastes better with rabies!! 05:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that his hair turns black when he's near large bodies of water. His brown hair might turn black when its et or damp. - Count Mall

Zuko's hair is black. The only reason why it looks brown, is becuase he hasn't taken a bath in a really long time, so there is dirt, dust and grime on his hair. In SOFN, Zuko seems to have at least washed his hair or gotten all the grime out of it. - The Dragon's Daughter.

Another thing to consider about Zuko's hair when he's younger is that the coloring and light used is slightly different. Why? Because it denotes a flashback, just as how sounds echo very slightly in the same sequences.

I'm gonna have to say that it's dark brown. When Zuko was shown at fourteen in "The Storm", his hair was obviously brown, and it looks brown now that it's shorter. Also, Azula obviously has dark brown hair, and since they're siblings, that could be taken into consideration.24.154.137.15 03:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

The only reason his hair looked brown was because Zuko's flashbacks are always in different lighting (more brownish).Momoroxmysoxoff 21:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While I would say his hair is black- you should also compare it to, like, Toph's hair, which is black.

In relation to the above, this is true. For example, MY hair is VERY dark brown, and people always think it's black. But if compared to my sister, who DOES have black hair, you can see that it's brown. The whole lighting thing, yeah, that could be accredited to the flashback animation changes (everything does seem to take on an odd hue), but that doesn't change the fact that, in current time, both Zuko and Azula have clearly brown hair. This is especially obvious if compared to Toph whose hair is easily black, as defined by the creators.24.154.137.15 00:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

My hair is also very dark brown, it tends to change color slightly with season/sun exposure getting more brown or more black depending. 216.176.105.92 13:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have black hair and I know, when you have little hair, you can see your skin through the hair, so it won't look dark. As it grows, it becomes thicker and darker.

I looked at the fire nation page on wikipedia and Zuko's hair is black because people in the fire nation usually have dark brown to black hair. And honestly it's almost the same thing. :)

I vote for... black ! -Itachiluvor

It is black, Zuko and Azula have black hair. Zuko's hair just gets lighter because of the sun.

Quick Note

Ok, not to bring this up, after the 1 month chat about it, but there is a slit "Zuko's age problem" to tend to. Not big, dont worry. Just the part, where it says that "..Zuko was about 10-years-old...". Can we really put that in? I mean, with about in there, it kinda flys, but since his age at the time is not known, can it be on there. for all we know, he was only 8-years-old. wich, doesnt pass well with the 10-years-old part. Just saying. ~Sayasha

I think it was originally put there because that's about the age he looked. Other than that, I changed it so as to not cause any more... whatever, too much crap for one night. H2P 07:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I put that in there for the purposes of specificity, my source being the official site where it states in Azulon's bio that he died six years ago. Raceberry 07:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Zuko was ten when his mother died/vanished/disappeared/went missing. -The Dragon's Daughter. Quick Note - Zuko's mother was actually banished by the Firelord in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. She may or may not still be alive and Zuko plans to find her after he joins the Avatar. - Scotty Boy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The Triva for Zuko... yeah, has anyone noticed it? The two Chinese kanji characters making up his name Zu meaning the ancsetral tomb/ancestors and Kou meaning to rob, pillage/ rob. In that light, his name would mean something like this: Robber of the Ancestral Tomb. Or something along those lines. Just thought I might throw it out there, I always thought Zuko would mean honorable. - The Dragon's Daughter

Has anyone noticed that both forms of his name include a character about something ancestoral?

Bending

Why isn't there a section about Zuko's bending? We have one for Aang, Katara and Toph, so why not Zuko? At least something about his fighting style or sowards. September 26 15:45 Momoroxmysoxoff

Wow... I just now noticed that there isn't one. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

There still isn't one. What's up? Doesn't anyone want to do it? 202.72.187.152 16:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

What's stopping you? I just haven't had the time. I get on, need to revert 50 some things, then I go do my other stuff outside of Wiki. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I added one, but I don't think it's up to standards... Zygger 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

From there we can atleast edit it. As I proved below, though, there is no blue fire used in City of Walls and Secrets. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Lengthy

This is getting kind of long guys. I suggest adding more pictures in the relationships section, something like Zuko fighting Jet or talking to Jin or whatever. What we need is distractors that allow you to scroll down and not see a huge body of text. I know how everyone loves an anti-hero, but this body of information is huge compared to Aang and his group. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm on it. ^_^ -Redsparta 06:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Due to size and content I request that we put this page up for re-grading. I have no idea how to do this though. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, this doesn't exactly relate to topic, H2P, but I don't think it's quite fair to call Zuko the "anti-hero". Yes, in season one, he was certainly introduced as a pure antogonist, but we're slowly finding out that he's not evil or bad, just bitter. The only thing (only FACTUAL thing, I should say) that really motivates me to say this is that Zuko has had almost no, if ANY, hostile encounters with the gaang this season, which kinda rules him out as being the anti-hero. He's more like...hero-in-training now.24.154.137.15 03:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• • Try making sure you know what a term means before criticizing someone's use of it. Zuko's an anti-hero alright, you just don't know what H2P means by it. Y BCZ 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• I believe the definition of "anti-hero" is someone who comes in conflict with the hero or has particularly anti-heroic character traits, or traits that aren't generally associated with the hero. As of season two, Zuko has had virtually no conflict with the gaang, ruling him out as someone who goes against the hero. This season, he has also been presented as a basically honorable person, not someone without a moral code. Yes, I could have taken H2P's meaning the wrong way, but with the use of that word, that's how it came across to me. Just sayin'.

And, once again, I'm REALLY not trying to start something, but I don't appreciate your insulting my intelligence. Contrary to popular belief here, I'm NOT stupid.

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am expressing frustration over your insistence on a subject that you obviously do not possess complete knowledge of. An anti-hero is not one who goes against the hero of a series-that's the villain, or antagonist. An anti-hero is a protagonist or hero of a story that possesses particularly unheroic traits-a bank robber could be the hero of his own story, for example, but he's not a very heroic person. Zuko has certainly expressed unheroic qualities throughout the series but has, of late, been cast in the role of a protagonist. Y BCZ 22:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Like I said, Zuko was introduced as an antogonist. Depending on what qualities you take to be anti-heroic, yes, Zuko could be considered the anti-hero, which is why I say that I could have taken H2P's comment the wrong way. But in MY mind, Zuko isn't the anti-hero (I'm speaking of season two, not season one, by the way), so I don't exactly consider it fair to lable him as such. Think of it this way: Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The main character, Squall Leonhart, was the reluctant leader/protagonist, but that didn't make him the anti-hero, despite his obvious (if few) anti-heroic qualities. If you look up "anti-hero", you'll probably find that the anti-hero is someone who goes against the hero OR has particularly anti-heroic character traits. I've already stated that. And I'm not exactly dumb on the subject of literary terms, so don't say that I don't possess knowledge of them. Please don't think me arrogant, but as an author, I intend to major in literature and creative writing, so I DO have prior knowledge about these things...especially when the elements of fantasy and story and character construction are involoved, such as with the term "anti-hero"...But we've completely gotten off topic anyway. *shrugs* Oh well.24.154.137.15 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• Okay, please just look at wiki's article on the anti-hero and explain to me how Zuko doesn't fit it. He's been a protagonist in various instances, right? Okay, so he's been the hero. Now, has he done stuff that's not heroic? Well, he's resorted to robbing and beating people up to get what he wants, so yes. And this happens in season two. Zuko has, indeed, shown that he can be a very honorable person, for instance by defending the town in "Zuko Alone" and refusing to steal from a pregnant woman. An anti-hero is not a scum-bag, okay? Let's not take the term too far. As the wiki states, the anti-hero is basically Batman: working for the greater cause through often unchivalrous ways. Now, Zuko supposedly freed Appa in "Lake Laogai", right? He's a hero for that. But why did he go there in the first place? To try to find a way to capture Aang. An anti-hero is known for achieving heroic ends through non-heroic means or intent, and Zuko has done that on various occasions. Not just in season two, either: remember that he first donned the identity of the Blue Spirit in order to save Aang from Zhao (heroic) so that he could capture him later (anti-heroic). Y BCZ 03:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Okay. I'll give ya that. I suppose it's partially my fault; I admit to always being biased in Zuko's favor, because he's my favorite character. I just dislike the term "anti-hero". To me, anti-hero, (although it CAN be applied to Zuko in the way in which you've said), though it isn't necessarily the exact meaning, is generally taken to mean something bad. I don't consider Zuko the anti-hero, because he's obviously meant to be taken as a basically honorable person. Actually, if you analyze Zuko's very animation, he has physical traits that are associated with gallantry in anime.208.122.69.38 15:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Relationship with Jin Picture

The segment is about Zuko and his relation to Jin, but the picture doesn't show Jin's face at all. May I recommend the picture in the "Tales of Ba Sing Se" episode? It shows how Zuko feels awkward towards her and how major Jin's crush on him is. --Andrelius, 5:19 am, October 1 (UTC) (UTC means GMT 0 right?)

The blue streaks...

In the Jet section of Zuko's relationship article, I noticed that there is a sentece that reads like this: "Some believe the light streaks from the tip of his broadswords are lightning--this is not so. When he slashes his swords through the air, the streaks are simply a trail of light from the sword" This is blasphemy. A mere "trail of light" would not be able to slice the toothpick in Jet's mouth clean in half. Also note that the blue streaks had only come from Zuko's blades later on in the fight moments before the police had arrived, and how it was emphasized when first shown cutting Jet's toothpick. The streaks that were shown early in the fight were clear and white, as opposed to the clearly blue-edged lights that eventually began to emit from Zuko's broad-swords. I don't know where anyone comes off saying that these were "simply a trail of light"; the only explanation is that this is either blue flame or lightning. Don't forget that as of recently Zuko's personality hs changed from being arrogant and angered to noticeably more calm and collected as if in control of his emotions better, which is what a firebender requires to bend lightning. Unless of course there is some sort of official material that states otherwise, I suggest the thory of lightning stays a primary possibility, as the light was far too distictive to be just an after-image of some kind.

You're an idiot. Jet's weapons did the same thing, go rewatch it and stop speculating your secret fetish of Zuko. It's eye candy, not lightning, not blue fire, eye candy. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 08:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

That's precisely what I did before even typing this article, and I clearly saw that only Zuko's blade's emmitted that blue light. The closest time I saw to Jet's blades making that similar light were when Zuko was slashing on the left and/or right of the screen. I based this article on observation, not fanboyism like your little reply seemed to assume. It is as they say, an assumption will make you an "ass" and the "ump" will "tion" you, and right now, you're that ass.

Quite frankly...prove it. You want to add something, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. And, anyway, I'd say blue fire seems more likely than lightening, since what we’ve seen of lighting requires a lot of fairly visible hand motions. Also, I'd encourage EVERYBODY (yes, you were both wrong) to cut out the name calling. And no, that somebody did it first doesn’t make it OK.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe my opening statement was proof enough that there is at least more to the streaks than just special effects. Whether it was either blue flames or lightning in particular isn't what I'm getting at, just that it's more than likely one or the other; perhaps a form of foreshadowing. My goal isn't to add this thought to the actual Wiki, but just to get my point across that, as I said before, it's pretty far-fetched to think that such a disticntive blue light was just an after-effect if it could slice a solid object—as thin as that particular object may have been—in half.

I've been told to smile more and be nicer in my corrections so here: Jet creating spark. Twice. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen here. As you can see, it's an after image used for eye candy because the scene itself is so dark. What happens on the side view is that the light created moves like a C. but a sideview of a C is just a straight line so it looks like the streak is cutting it but in fact the streak never touches the twig in Jet's mouth. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 23:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I've looked at the screen caps, and they're right. The tooth pick doesn't break until several seconds AFTER Zuko's sword goes by (I admit, I didn't notice when watching the show, I had to check the captures). I don't think it's lightning though. More likely, it's just blue flames, a hotter form of his usual Firebending.24.154.137.15 03:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

That still ignores the problem that Jet's sword had the same effect. This image, linked by H2P up a bit, shows that pretty clearly. I'd credit any weirdness with the toothpick's falling to the general weirdness of that scene's animation.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well, yeah, but I think the dialogue kinda implies that Zuko was Firebending, because immediately after the sword went by and the toothpick broke, Jet leapt back and said, "Ya see that? The Fire Nation's trying to silence me!", as if he'd seen Zuko bending, and assumed that the onlookers had seen as well. A different shot of the light/sword cutting the toothpick can be seen here. [1] But, again, it CAN be accredited to this scene's odd animation.24.154.137.15 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• • The reason Jet said that was because Zuko reacted to Jet's comments ("Bet you wish he'd help you out with a little fire blast, huh?" and such) by coming about two inches from slicing his nose off. Note that Jet was looking for some sign, ANY sign, that Zuko was a Firebender, so he could've been referring to anything about him. It wouldn't make sense for him to point out a flash of light from the tip of Zuko's sword if his own weapons produced the same visual effect (especially considering Jet is probably far more familiar with his hook swords than a couple of swords Zuko pulled off a random Earth Kingdom soldier). The fight scene was dark, the animators needed some way to make it look flashier. So they stuck a couple of flashes of light in. Y BCZ 02:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are people still arguing this? I clearly proved the theory wrong completely with just 3 pictures. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• To H2P: I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it could go either or. The odd animation of that scene makes it hard to tell. To Y BCZ: Isn't it odd how no matter WHERE he is, Zuko ALWAYS has access to broadswords...?24.154.137.15 12:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

• • The most likely reason Zuko keeps broadswords around is because he's good with them, and as long as he's in the Earth Kingdom, he needs a way to fight without firebending. Exhibit A 16:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• • • Actually, Zuko's broadswords weren't his originals-they're the ones he swiped off a random Earth Kingdom man early in Book 2. The swords he uses against Jet belong to an Earth Kingdom soldier (you can see the soldier is about to draw the swords, but Zuko just walks up behind him and snatches them out of the sheath). It's not too odd that two Earth Kingdom men out of the several hundred that Zuko and Iroh have come across happened to own twin broadswords, especially considering the location of the tea shop. A lot of their customers are probably soldiers stationed on the outer-most wall, and the Earth Kingdom's soldiers wield a very wide selection of weapons (as opposed to the Fire Nation's hordes of spearmen). Of course, this point doesn't really matter. What matters is we can't tell for sure (and several think it's doubtful) that Zuko Firebended in that scene. It's all speculation, therefore DON'T put it on the page. If Zuko says something like "Jet forced me to Firebend against him in that fight," then sure, go ahead. But as far as we know, Zuko hasn't learned blue Firebending or lightning yet. Note that the only time he's Firebended since was in Tales of Ba Sing Se, and then his flames were the normal orange. The point is this: you have no proof, stop arguing about it.

• Once again: Not arguing. I'm keeping all options open. But, agreed, until it's confirmed, keep it off the page.208.122.69.29 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

  The option shouldn't be kept open! I've proved it wrong above, why won't anyone look at the damn pictures I posted? Here, I'll post them again: Jet creating spark. Twice. The SWORD cutting the toothpick and the blue light never getting close to it can be seen here.

  • This is really quite pointless to argue, H2P pretty much proved that the streaks aren't any type of bending with the pictures of Jet. I'm positive that the streaks are just afterimages of the sword ex. When you swing a sword really fast an afterimage is created when light is reflected of it. That's all it is, light. -Jammity 14:36 18 Nov.

Requested Move

See Talk: Uncle Iroh#Requested move to discuss. Please do not discuss the move here, follow the link.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Personality Section

It seems to me that the Personality section is a little... awkward? I don't know if someone wants to try integratting it better with the rest of the article, I was just passing through and noticed it left a little something to be desired grammatically, so I did my best giving it a makeover.Sean Patrick Santos 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sokka

Are the details in the relationship between Sokka and Zuko important enough for there to be a section devoted to it? H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)+

I agree. I doubt that Zuko even notices that Sokka even exists. Momoroxmysoxoff

• Yeah...it isn't that important...but Zuko DOES know that Sokka exists. In "The Waterbending Scroll", Zuko told Katara that he wouldn't hurt her or HER BROTHER if she told him where Aang was. Just throwin' that in there. 24.154.137.15 21:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Too, in the episode "Crossroads of Destiny" when Aang says he'll help get Zuko and Katara back, Sokka says he isn't going to rescue Zuko at all. Then Iroh says there is good in him, and Sokka remarks tell us when it's outside him too. And Zuko knows who Sokka is because in the episodes, "The boy in the iceburg" he fights Sokka and beats him up.

Personality Section: NPOV

"At first, Zuko lashes out and turns to robbery, even to those who are kind to him. However, over time, Zuko begins to calm himself and act in a better way"

A 'better' way? $Insertformulahere$

Um...I changed something on the trivia section. Lee/Li (however you want to spell it) also means "Strength" in Chinese. Its a Chinese boy's name. I got this information off of a Chinese baby name websight. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 04:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)(PS: My username is Dragon Jadefire, but I go by DJ)

Lake Laogai spoilers

Should there be spoilers for Lake Laogai {and unaired episodes in general} in this article? Although there's a spoiler warning near the beginning, people might not expect unaired episode spoilers. --NoraBlack 04:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Any canonical information that is available can be posted. There's hardly a difference in posting spoilers for episodes that haven't aired in one particular manner or another. Lake Laogai has aired on TurboNick instead of Nickelodeon, but there are quite a few episodes that are in the reverse situation. It's all the same to someone who has or hasn't seen it. -- Y BCZ 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

PICTURE OF ZUKO from Lake Laogai episode: Why doesn't someone update the picture of zuko to one from the Lake Laogai episode after it airs tonight? I would, but don't know how. Besides, he looks A LOT cooler with his hair longer. Sorta gangster-ish.

Sure, lets just update his picture every new episode then! H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean his hair has grown a lot longer since he firt had it cut. I'd go either way, but what does everyone else think? Momoroxmysoxoff 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm hoping H2P's remark was sarcastic. If not, it's ridiculous. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving!}} 02:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it was. Apparently people didn't see that. If we start changing his picture every time his hair grows we'll be changing it once a week. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I knew that. I was just testing you. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving!}} 03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the pic from above looks like it was from "Zuko Alone," which was pretty early in the season. Now we're towards the end of the season, so isn't it time for an update? We don't have to change it every new episode. GdaMan 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC) GdaMan

• Well, while I agree it IS ridiculous to update pictures EVERY time an episode airs, it WOULD be more practical to post a Lake Laogai picture, taking into consideration that his hair has grown a considerable length with this episode.71.164.44.185 01:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

  Yeah but how long will it stay that way? he might cut it then we change it again. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 05:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Would you get a new one if he did cut it? Momoroxmysoxoff 03:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My personal suggestion: update the picture, but only if we have a more recent picture that is of equal or better quality than the one that's there now.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, I was just thinking that we might even get a really good pic. from lake laogai (Just the way the camera looked at him), but maybe in some of the newer episodes will be as good as this one (I like it, but I think maybe it might be time for change). Momoroxmysoxoff 20:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Train Aang?

I think that Zuko may be the one to train Aang in book 3. Since it is unlikely that he'll ever be able to return to the fire nation, his hatred of Azula, his slow change into a good guy, and Uncle Iroh helping him, he might decide to help Aang. What do you think?

That's nice, but this isn't a forum. You want to discuss speculation, go to a forum. We only do facts on this web site, and this page is meant for changes to the associated page. Good day sir. Y BCZ 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't a forum and all but I just want to point out Zuko isn't even done with HIS training. Iroh is still teaching him... So even if by some random conicidience he was taught by one of them, it would probably be Iroh.

For all we know, he could be a master, but there could be tecniqes he hasn't mastered yet (blue fire and lightning). It goes back to Ozai and Zhao being masters, yet hasn't been seen bending blue fire and/or lightning. Momoroxmysoxoff 21:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the last comment, I wouldn't forget that Iroh, himself, is a master. I'm sure almost everyone can aree on that.Vnarang (talk) 00:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Katara"

I've removed the section entirely. I don't care if you like to pretend that Katara and Zuko are meant for each other. It's still not case, and there has been no indication whatsoever. Thus, there's little point to actually have the section and exempt Toph and Sokka beyond the insane delusions of shippers. Interrobamf 10:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you noticed or not, but there isn't a single word about any kind of romance in the section, or in the "Zuko" section of Katara's page. They have interacted enough to warrant a section on each others pages, and even if you disagree, that's the kind of thing that should be discussed first. Exhibit A 16:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

We both know well that the only reason those sections exist is due to "Zutara". Their interaction? They fought once over Aang, fought together with a bunch of other people against Azula (where they interacted as much Toph and Sokka did with Zuko), and talked about a necklace once. No, there needs to be far more than that. Interrobamf 22:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm putting it back. Reasons or no, removing that big a hunk of text with no consensus to do so doesn't fly.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm as adamantly against shipping on wp as anyone, but that chunk of text is not shipping. His relationship to Katara is worth noting if only for their great battle at the North Pole, where both of their improved skills were pitted against each other. As well, I am sure more information will come up later to be added to it. Whether or not they have any future, speculative romantic entaglements, they do have a relationship. That said, at a glance, I suspect the section could be pruned a bit. Just do it with thought, rather than cutting the whole thing off. Erk|Talk|homepage 08:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he ever even say her name... ever? No, Zuko has never said "Katara, Sokka, Aang, Toph," or any of them in his life probably I am hoping for him to say at least ONE of their names to see how it sounds. haha I'm so obsessed. I've never heard any fire benders (besides like Jeong Jeong) say any of their names, they always say the Avatar and his friends and stuff.

Now that I think about it, he never did say her name... weird...

He still has a relationship, it's just a hate-hate relationship. The summerary also expresses "The Chase" when she wanted to help him. Also Zuko never says Zhao's name (i think...). Momoroxmysoxoff 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

He says Captain Zhao in episode 3 H2P

Are we allowed to add information for future episodes which information has been confirmed. For instance could you add that they are trapped in a cave together in the upcoming episode? Or should we wait until it airs?

We don't add anything about future episodes to characters biographies. You can add informationg given by the creators (and ONLY the creators) on the page for the future show. However, until it is canon it does not get added. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Mabye someone should add somthing about the Zutara fandom and the fact that Avatar shows that they know of it in the short "Golden Dragon Dance". ~ DSQ

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails.

Season Two

I've made some efforts to condense the synopsis of Book Two slightly and make it flow better.. what does everyone think? Wandering Man 07:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks better. Not like the list that was there. Momoroxmysoxoff 14:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This reads so much better. I'm going to go ahead and remove the List to Prose statement. Now all we need to do is shorten it to a much more readable length and we'll be done with it. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that the season is over and I'm feeling caught up on everything, I'm going to make an effort to do some major pruning on this section... if I don't have it done by tonight it should be ready in the next day or two. Wandering Man 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Finished updating the Book II section. It wound up as more of a trimming than a true pruning, but I got reid of a lot of needless details and tried to make the details of the important events more concise. (I think when I first copied it into Word it ran at more than 5 and a half pages, I managed to cut out about a page of that). If anyone wants to do further work on it, feel free. Wandering Man

Firbending Master

I noticed that someone has made Zuko a firebending master, even though it's just a title. When did that happen? And can we consider him a master?Boywonder18 00:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think he can be considered master now.. in the invasion during book 3 he faces up to Firelord Ozai during the eclipse.. at the end of the convosation Ozai fires lightning at Zuko but Zuko reverses it and knocks the Firelord down.. so Zuko can obviously manipulate lightning now that he's let go of his shame or something which Iroh said he needs to do before he can successfully create lightning! (sorry to anyone who hasn't seen that episode yet!!) Krazy mickle (talk) 19:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

He redirects the lightning which Iroh says he could do, all he said was Zuko couldn't create it until he let go of his shame. Joeking16 (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I took it off and just let it say "Firebender". He's probably close to mastery, but I guess we'll have to see if he's ever refered to in the show as one. Momoroxmysoxoff 01:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This really needs to stop. "Master" is a title, a rank. You’re formally given that title by another Master (presumably your instructor.) Its not just "learn all these techniques and then you are a master." Think of it like a military promotion: whether or not you deserve to be a Corporal, you're still a Private until somebody promotes you. People need to stop editing this (and other) articles to claim people are masters who have never been given the title.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Nick Latin America has informed that he is indeed a Firebending Master, so, he in reality is.

Thank you finally. Never do that again. Can we have a source please? -Dylan0513 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Try to find a spanish avatar clip with Zuko inside, often the word Maestrofuego which means firebending master can be heard, that should be enough proof and, what gives proof of Zhao being a firebending master.

That is not a source. A source is needed. -Dylan0513 20:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There aren't any spanish videos on youtube and my computer can't access turbonick so, try searching yourself but, what gives proof of other firebenders being masters.

There is no mention of Zuko being a Fire Bending master in the show. Period. A link to an official site or an interview woukld probably be the only things. -Dylan0513 22:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

See this link, it was edited a long time ago. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuko#Las_Capacidades

As you can see, this is the English Wikipedia meaning we don't use the Spanish form of shows. I highly doubt it said he was even said at all in the Spanish version. -Dylan0513 20:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That means that Zuko needs to be called Firebending master, Exactly as it is written.Cpzphantom 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

...did you even read what I wrote? No Spanish Avatar as a source! -Dylan0513 01:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but can a normal firebender beat a Firebending master?

Yes. Someone could be kept at a non-master rank for their entire life, no matter how well they bend. Or don't bend. Really, anyone could beat anyone. It's not just a matter of bending skills or lack of them, there are many factors that result in the outcome of a fight. One person or group of people are not always guaranteed to win because of what they are ranked. Bagpipeturtle 03:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Considered adding professional since there must be a way to describe he is quite different from a normal firebender but hasn't received the firebending master title yet. also, when were toph and Katara where called masters and when did azula wasCpzphantom 21:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

He's not even close to master. I don't know where you are getting this from. -Dylan0513 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

But an expert, normal firebender is quite different from a master, something to say he is inside the requirements of a master but that he isn't, after all almost all characters are reffered as masters.

There aren't any ranks that we know of between normal and master, so we can't just make things up willy-nilly. Zuko will stay a normal firebender until he is promoted in the show in canon. And about the Katara/Toph/Azula thing mentioned several posts ago, Katara was promoted during Seige of the North, was it? She was at the North Pole with Master Pakku, and he said something about Aang calling her Master Katara. Which means she's a master. I'm pretty sure it was stated that Toph was a master in the Blind Bandit somewhere, plus the whole 'greatest earthbender in the world' thing. About Azula... there is something about that on her talk page. Bagpipeturtle 00:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverted out someone's edit calling him a master. If there's no source do not change it folks. Sources, not speculation. Eban 20:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Jin and Song

These two are listed under the realtionships section but are they really large enough characters to be there? They were both only there for one episdoe each. Jin I can inderstand because she was pretty much Zuko's first relationship even if she was only there for one episode. But Song? She hardly had a large enough role to be truly significant and her chances of being seen again are fairly low. I think at least Song's section should be deleted. Anyone agree? 69.141.78.155 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been wondering about Song for awhile. She seemed to have an effect about Zuko, as he learned about the troubles his people had inflicted upon innocents. However, he also met Lee's family during that time, and they aren't listed in the relationships section. Jin was there for only a few minutes, but the fact that they kissed does kind of play a big factor. I don't think we really need Song there anymore. Y BCZ 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So is it agreed that we should delete Song's paragraph? Or does anyone protest to this? But if you do have a good reason why because once again, Song really isn't a huge part of Zuko's life anymore. 69.141.78.155 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't get too far ahead of yourself, the subject only just came up an hour ago. Wait to hear other people's opinions. Y BCZ 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason for either of them, but I forsee Jin playing a role in upcoming episodes so, for now, I say we can leave her. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't think Jin or anything or anyone else from Tales of Ba Sing Se will have any impact beyond that episode, but I'd be in favor of leaving her paragraph in the relationship section in, since a date is a notable event for Zuko. I think it might be best to just limit Song to the bit that is mentioned in the Book II section, however. That part seems to cover most of what there is to say between her and Zuko. Wandering Man 06:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying we delete just yet. Just seeing if anyone disagreed. Jin yes she might still play a major role. However Song I think is doubtful. 69.141.78.155 20:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

FA

Due to the fact that information on this page won't be updated for a good while, and due to the overall length and style of the article, I suggest that we clean this up just a bit more and then nominate it for FA status. In order to do this, though, we are going to need to cite many of the episodes as sources (similar to what I did to Waterbender a while back). I've cleaned a few unnecessary pictures from the page, the rest need proper citation (I don't think the Jet picture works all that well). I know we're all working real hard to nominate the main Avatar article, but if we get a chance we could easily convert this along with it. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 16:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem is that most of the article reads as an list of episode summarys. All of our project shall decend upon this aricle and make it worthy of Featured Articleness. Cnriaczoy42 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I just finished pruning through the history section (not sure if I hit the stuff prior to book 1). The problem is that the history is the story section and a story section is nothing more than episode summaries. I think I was able to remove all the very small details. I think his relationship with Jet (atleast, in the story section) is not needed but I did't remove it yet. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm new here, and would just like to say you might want to update his summary. You could mention the fact he's a tragic hero, and make it sound a bit more... interesting. That's all. 22:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how is he a tragic hero?--SUIT 04:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Scroll up the Lengthness. I don't get why people don't see that. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 04:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

By definition. "Tragic hero: a literary character who makes an error of judgment or has a fatal flaw that, combined with fate and external forces, brings on a tragedy." That's a direct quote from a dictionary. 02:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tragic hero? Hmmm, it seem to fit him, but what about anti-hero? Oooh! I got it! Tragic anti-hero! My cat: You made that up! Me: Hey, it seems to fit. 66.45.175.101 20:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Top Importance?

Why would one main character page be top importance over the others? I know this one may be the most detailed and longest, but tthis is importance. -Dylan0513 01:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Mai?

Should Mai still be in the character relationship. I remember others being taken out because of lack of depth and all it really mentions is Mai's apparent childhood crush on Zuko. Since Mai's appearance, there has been no interaction between the two and seeing how the season has ended, I think it's time it was taken down. -Lionheart08

Why? Now that they're both in Ba Sing Se, and (you would think) in th same palace, there should be interaction. And they did interact in "Zuko Alone" (the whole "game" insident). Momoroxmysoxoff 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Keeping it up just becase of speculation of what might happen is sort of fandom isn't? From my understanding, Relationships created because the characters had an impact on each other or there was consistent interaction throughtout the series. Aside from the flashback, there has been no interaction between the two, and even then, there wasn't enough substance to warrent a relationship. Lionheart08 20:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed her, considering that they haven't interacted since their childhood and it played no role in who Zuko becomes. People in the relationships section should have some direct meaning to the character's character. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and if Mai interacts with him in Book Three, we can always put her back on. Bagpipeturtle 17:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

(*cries*) Well...I should have known this would happen after what happened to Haru...Oh well. I don't see how they can't have no intersection in book three anyway...so once agian I admit defeat. Momoroxmysoxoff 22:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Lol, did you guys see the ComicCon trailer? I think Mai deserves a spot in the Character Relationships section now. 74.233.144.186 23:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

We should add something about Mai, especially after seeing this:http://youtube.com/watch?v=_yvhgiKK74ADarth G 20:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, we have no idea what the circumstances were, so no. When the episode they kiss in is aired, then we can add it. Bagpipeturtle 02:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Relationships Removal

This is just a personal opinion but I think the relationships aren't really needed for the character pages. It seems since the relationship pages were created, it has only sprouted more controversy on what is considered a relationship, and what is merely fandom. Add on to that, with a future season coming, there's only going to be more increase to that particular section.

The character pages (Mainly Zuko's and Aang's) are far too long and the character relationships is the only reasonable thing to cut out. And I personally think there already enough on the pages without relationships, to give anyone enough insight on the characters. Lionheart08 20:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

...I disagree. The relationship between characters is one of the show's most prominent and important elements. Just think of how much Katara has affected Aang's actions, or Iroh has unfluenced Zuko. Those are very important aspects of the characters. Deleting those sections would be leaving out some essential information. Besides, I think taking out the relationship sections would cause even MORE controversy than already exists. Y BCZ 22:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Y, but I think we need to reword them so that instead of just showing how they've interacted, show how they influenced the other. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 23:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

What I was thinking was to use something along the lines of a Character Analysis. Because when you get right down to it, only a few characters on each list played a vital role in the respective character's evolution. Despite her small role, Jin played a major part in Zuko's season 2 development while Jet didn't really. Lionheart08 21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

Almost this is entire page is original research. Please read WP:OR before adding things you have written yourself. Sources are needed to back up all statements on WP. - Ocatecir 19:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted your gutting of the article. The source is the show itself, which is well established practice. If you'd like to cite specific example of what you think are OR, fine, but don't think you're just going to wipe the article clean like that.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

This is what I also told Ocatecir on his user talk page. There is no OR, but it is a way too detailed character synopsis.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 01:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I just left a message on his talkpage. Which he immediately deleted. I think it's banhammer time. Or call one of the commitees. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 01:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Until I see some good faith effort to discuss the issue (for example, responding to rather than ignoring and deleting talk page comments) I'll just consider any attempt to remove that much content from the article vandalism and react accordingly. Don't really have much choice, if the other parties won't discuss anything...--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I see he gave you the backspace treatment too. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 02:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't really see what can be done, if every effort to discuss the issue is going to be ignored.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Frankly your responses turned me off to trying to argue with you, especially pacific coast highway's comments about abuse (and then banhammer time and committee? please. I know you're only 16 but please conduct yourself with a little maturity). I'm not going to argue with 15 editors who are obviously fans of a subject I know nothing about and treat your adherence to rules as an attack on them. The problem with arguing with webcomic/anime/podcast editors on wikipedia is they treat wikipedia as an all-inclusive resource instead of a wikipedia. So go ahead and revert this article to a 15 page long fansite, someone else later on down the line should clean it up though. There are plenty of other pages that need to be cleaned up to comply with wikipedia's guidelines that I don't need to be arguing here. I will simply move on. - Ocatecir 02:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

So much for civility. And continuously ignoring/removing messages from your talkpage dosen't look good on your part either. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 02:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this guy kidding? Didn't we just have Torchic on the main page a few weeks back? H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This sorely needs to be written with WP:FAC in mind. And it really needs citations. See List of FoxTrot family members for citing from the source - the page number and book is cited. Surely it can be done for this article? Hbdragon88 09:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the personality section is original resrach. Sentences like While initially the series' main antagonist, over time Zuko's continued development has shown him to be more like a bitter and complex young man are advancing a particular viewpoint, an interpretation, instead of just the facts, and thus require some kind of citation from an outside source. Hbdragon88 09:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole article is original research. Nothing is backed up by sources. I seriously hope you aren't serious about submitting this to FA or even GA with 0 references. Saying "the show is the reference itself" isn't good enough. I would fail this as a GA but i'm interested in what another editor thinks. M3tal H3ad 11:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

And I direct you to Padme Amidala who's featured article status is backed up mostly, almost fully, but references to the movie and the books of the Star Wars universe. I see no difference except that we don't have many outside sources like reviews and interviews that we can actually use. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 14:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Alter Ego category?

should we add Zuko to the catagory of Fictional Characters with Alter Egos? Granted, there's no catagory with that name, and while he clearly doesn't have multiple personalities, like Conholio is to Beavis for example, the Blue Spirit is still an aspect of him.

[[Category:Alter egos]]

GA review

This article has a lot of flaws and I'm going to fail it. The lead should summarize the entire article and be longer than two paragraphs for an article of this size (see WP:LEAD). The article doens't have any inline citations, which is should have. The article has a "original research" tag. I won't get into whether it is justified, but a good article should have resolves these issues. Articles should not contain trivia sections. Finally, the entire article is in-universe and should have out-of-universe information, such as how was the character created in the real world (see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction)). --Maitch 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

We don't have that information. All the information we have about the character is presented. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 17:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Breath of Flame?

I was watching last nigh, and Iroh mentioned something about Zuko's Breath of Flame (?) not really sure what this is, but should it be included in the abilitis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.80.121.174 (talk) 03:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

"Breathe of Fire," to be precise, and, like the name implies, it's a talent where be breathes fire. According to the director commentary for the episode it's actually a real Yoga move (Albeit without real fire), and Zuko used it to heat himself up after going through the freezing water and ice during The Siege of the North. JBK405 22:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's age

Zuko's age is listed as "16 (possibly 17 by book 2)" shouldn't the "possibly... " part be removed or is there reason to think this? I'm asking because it's been like that for a few days now. Cherries Jubilee 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Its actually been that way for quite a while, after a pretty major discussion on the subject (here.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed it, stop re-adding it. Until he has a birthday we see he's 16 barring any confirmed information from the creators. Eban 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Did you even bother reading that discussion I linked?--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It was mentioned in the begining of "The Avatar State" XAV 16:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I was in that discussion, I'm aware of it's content. There's no point in speculation, until it's known when his birthday is, or an official source opts to disclose his current age he's 16. Eban (talk • contribs) 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Again, sorry, but no. You don't get to just decide prior consensus is wrong and run with it. If somebody would actually like to talk about it fine, but the status quo stays until there's consensus otherwise.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • 19:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)}

contribs) 04:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No source, don't include it, period. You don't have a source. Stop re-adding it, I don't care if the consensus is that Aang is really King Kong, no source, no addition to the article. Eban

Yeah....um, no. Doesn't work that way, sorry. You don't get to just decide consensus is wrong. If you want to actually discuss it, fine. I'm all ears. But if you're just going to say you're right and do whatever you want, I honestly don't care what you have to say.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yay for edit wars! By the way, book two is over, and he never had a birthday. Still no source from you. Stop adding unsourced material.Eban 19:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he never celebrated a birthday. Bagpipeturtle 21:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You'd think the heir apparent of an empire would celebrate a birthday if he had one wouldn't you? No source, don't change it. Wikipedia deals in facts, not fan theories. Eban 12:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Look. One person dosn't get to just decide consensus is wrong. That's the bottom line, and no amount of complaining out of you will change it. As I said, you want to actually discuss the issue, fine, but until that happens, the status quo stays. That's just the way it is.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk •}

contribs) 17:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is irrelevant. This is wikipedia, not fanficpedia. Use facts, not presumptions or wishful thinking from the fanfic community. Eban 19:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

To tell the truth, I don't see why you are bringing up fan fiction at all. There was a consensus decided, and one person can not just go along and decide that it is wrong until we get new information. Bagpipeturtle 19:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

(un-indenting)"Consensus is irrelevant"? Er, no, no its not. Anyway, this has nothing at all to do with fan fiction, so I don't know why you're harping on that. You keep insisting there's no source for him to be anything but 16, but that's simply not true. The show itself does count as a source, you know. Between the website and the show itself, we have bits of information that appear to be in conflict. We reconcile that by compromise. Why do you have such a problem with that?--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

So by your logic the population of elephants tripled in the last ten years? I mean a lot of people said it did at Stephen Colbert's request. Consensus view is that the population tripled. Is that suddenly fact? No it's not. But hey, good for you if you think you can just make up things and slap them in without sources. Policy dictates otherwise. Stop changing it without a source. 24.171.83.198 23:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

We weren't making up things. There is evidence that proves Zuko could be 16 (the website), and evidence that proves he could be 17 (the show). So, you know, the consensus was decided to put the 16 (possibly 17 in book two). This has nothing to do with elephants. If you have new information that proves us wrong or right, then we can put that up. But, you know, you can't just decide that this consensus is wrong without any new information. Bagpipeturtle 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

When is there ever any indication as to how much time has passed since the start of the show? When is there ever any mention of Zuko's birthday? I would think Iroh would mention it wouldn't you? 24.171.83.109 19:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The start of the show? That has nothing to do with it. Did you even read the prior discussions before deciding they were all wrong? We know Zuko was 14 when he was banished, and during the show he had the third anniversary since his banishment. 14+3=17. However, we also have a website saying he's 16. Hence, we avoid taking either extreme.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Zuko was banished about two years before the start of the show. When the show began, nick.com said Prince Zuko was sixteen years old. The site for Austrilia (nickelodeon.com.au) confirms that Zuko was fourteen when he was banished. At the start of the book of earth, Zuko stated it had been three years since his father banished him from the Fire Nation. Fourteen plus three equals seventeen, therefore, Zuko is more than likely seventeen in the Book of Earth.

Well, the thing is that the site hasn't been updated to say that he's 17, if he is. And we don't know whether Zuko was 16, 16.5, 16.75, or what in Book 1. He could have just turned 16, and so he would still be sixteen at the start of Book 2, correct? The thing is, we just don't know when his birthday is and exactly how old he is at any one point in time. This stops us from saying with quite certanty whether he is 16 or 17. That's why the consensus was reached. Bagpipeturtle 21:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Timeline for you. Zuko is banished at fourteen (see nickelodeon.com.au , the source pointed out above, and look up the show and characters). Zuko has been at sea for at least two years before the show began (confirmed by Zhao in episode three, The Southern Air Temple). This confirms what we know from the site nick.com, Zuko is at least sixteen at the start of the first season. At the start of season two, Zuko confirms it has been three years since he was banished. If he were fourteen when he'd been banished and three years had passed, he should, logically, be seventeen at or even before the start of season two. With all this solid evidence, on an official site and on the show, I don't see we're not allowed to assume that Zuko is seventeen (and turned seventeen in the winter, but I'm not going to try and explain that one).

If Zuko is sixteen in Book One and three years have passed in Book Two, then technically he'd be nineteen, wouldn't he? That would be kind of nice. ~Souda

Sorry, but not quite. It's three years have passed since Zuko was first exiled, not three years since Book One. JBK405 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Does anybody have an actual reason why a compromise is wrong here (beyond the "no source", which, as above, has been proven inaccurate), or has this just turned into a game of "edit till I get my way"? Because dispute tags are there to help discuss an issue, and if the people adding them won't discuss the issue, as far as I'm concerned its vandalism and I'll deal with it accordingly.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, wait just a minute here. Where's the source saying he's 16? Because I've got the bio on nick.com open now, and it doesn't say anything about an age other than "teenage".--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure it's mentioned he's 16 in Winter Solstice Part 2. Eban 13:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way I find it incredibly hilarious that after weeks of insisting that your view "the consensus view" was right, that you're just now bothering to fact check. Eban 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

We never said the consensus view was correct (since we don't know which is correct), it's just better than saying either 16 or 17, because people would get angry either way. And they still are... Bagpipeturtle 21:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. He's either 16 or 17. We aren't sure, so we cover all the bases. I still can't see why that's been such a problem.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think when the invasion airs somone should change it to 16 as Zuko clearly states that he was 13 when challenged to the Agni Kai and in the episode The Awakning at the fan fair at the palace the two old twins state that it had been three years since he left: 13 + 3 + 16!! ~ DSQ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.61.135 (talk) 22:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that means he was banished after he was 13, the Agni Kai could of been the day before he was 14 which would most certainly mean he would be 14 when he is banished so he could be 17 by now. Joeking16 (talk) 22:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Guys, c'mon, stop arguing about this. It's not even accomplishing anything, as age has been removed from the infobox. Bagpipeturtle (talk) 00:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Making this a featured article discussion

Here's where we can discuss steps to making this a featured article. I'm currently in the process of adding sources to the article. I think that the season 1 and season 2's formats should match. I think we should condense what's in the season 2 section and take away the divisions to make it look like season 1. Thoughts? -Dylan0513 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the divisions as they are. It would be hard to knock out the data because Zuko became such a main player in season 2. We could shorten it, but it should never be as short as Season 1. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. you think we should keep the divisions by certain episodes though? -Dylan0513 19:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I like them the way they are, a lot of the episodes focus around one theme. Like the banishment period, the Ba Sing Se period, Alone, etc. I think what they really need is just clean up. Take away a lot of the fluff. I've done this multiple times but it always seems to come back. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't both seasons have the same format though? I think one way or the other... -Dylan0513 19:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a perfectly logical reason for the differences, as in Season 1 most of the episodes where he's in it's just Zuko is making another attempt to capture Aang, without it having a greater significance to the character, or his role within the show. During Season 2, however, nearly episode has some occurrence or lends to the evolution of Zuko's character, which is a big reason for a slightly different format.Wandering Man

I think the biggest thing the article actually needs is a fairly brief paragraph at the start describing the world of Avatar, it's history and settings somewhat. One of the primary reasons the article didn't make Good Article status is because it was written in an "in universe" style, and it's true. I imagine someone who has never seen an Avatar episode stumbling onto the article and saying "Firebending? What the hell is Firebending?!!" and then leaving to read something else. If no one else wants to, I can get started on a section like that for the article.Wandering Man

Well, I've given it a shot with adding that section. What does everyone think? Wandering Man

• Question: Is it ok what I've been doing with the season 2 episodes and citing the episodes the specific part is on next where it says main article and not in the text? -Dylan0513 18:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I did it by paragraph. -Dylan0513 23:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• New topic, we need to shorten the article. Do Jin and Jet need spots in the relationships? -Dylan0513 23:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well they were a part of book 2 and they could be removed eventually. It is unlikely they will be seen in any future episodes. XAV 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jin made an impact on him, first thing with person... *goes to pause Yu-Gi-Oh in the other window* Jin appears to be the first person who had a kind of romantic relationship with and a person with whom he acted different to usual. She may not have been around for long but at the least she showed Zuko the kind of life he could have had if he chose to remain in Ba Sing Se as Lee. Cherries Jubilee 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess so. Perhaps Jet should be removed eventually he doesn't seem to have left a big impact on him. XAV 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Jin Is 1st if either. You can see no effects of their date now and she was a one shot character. In my mind those have no place in a relationships section of a main character. -Dylan0513 10:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

We also need to take the Zuko and Jin picture out. -Dylan0513 10:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I also propose to take the Katara section out. They haven't interacted enough for it to be there. -Dylan0513 21:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I'm sure she's nice and all, but Jin really was a four-minute character in a considerably detached episode (notice how I didn't use "filler"). The creators have even stated that she's a one-shot and like several others, they'd like to bring her back but its unlikely. And yeah that Katara section was there long before they even had any substantial interaction (no that Zutara catalyst doesn't count, she said like 3 lines). Give ya five guesses why, rhymes with skipping. Though thanks to fanservice in the finale I think its kinda too late for that now. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)

Katara really should stay. That whole thing in the caves was a pretty pivotal scene.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, kinda forced. But like I said, its too late for that now. A relationship should truly be one that is continua and longlasting, not some dude that Mike, Bryan, and the rest thought that it'd be just be super-awesome for him to cross paths with. So ya'know, bye-bye Jet+Jin. ~Father' Wish 14 March (UTC)

Fyre, the thing is, look at the size of the article. I think after Jet and Jin, Katara is next. -Dylan0513 10:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't be removing stuff just to make it shorter. If something belongs there, it belongs there, no matter how long that means the article will be.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If only that were true, well for some occassions anyway. Its pretty much the opposite though, or at the very most has a profound effect. ~Father's Wish —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Father's Wish II (talk • contribs) 09:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm just telling you what people are going to say when we nominate it. "It's too long for an article about a fictional character." They'll probably be right. Back to Jet and Jin. -Dylan0513 19:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think all relationships should be removed and any relevant information worked into the article. This way the personality section can be deleted and then rewritten as well. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 19:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Where would we rework it into though? And why delete the personality section? -Dylan0513 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a purpose to the personality section. Their actions with the others is usually stated in the History section while how that person changes their personality should be in the personality section. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

We can't just have episode recaps the whole time. We need some other stuff! -Dylan0513 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Again I refer you to Queen Amidala who has no relationships section and half the page is just story. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 01:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Characteristics is personality, XD. BTW, we should notice that the page is 44 kb long. Zuko right now is 73. We've got some major cutting to do. -Dylan0513 01:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

We've been saying THAT all along. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 07:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not really. Some people think we don't need to cut. We need to come to a consensus. -Dylan0513 11:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have a proposition to make. We take out the relationships, family, personality and maybe abilities section and work them into the rest of the article. We put them into the episode recaps making them less recap-y, and more insight into Zuko. -Dylan0513 19:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Note for everybody: we're still discussing this. WP:BOLD isn't a free pass to do whatever you want.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

What contradciting policies was I using. WP:BOLD means that if an improvement can be made, then it doesn't need to be talked about. Also, two other people agreed that tose sections could go. I don't see how I was hurting anyone of anything by being Bold. The Placebo Effect 21:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

All of Wiki's policy's are contradicting. Yes, people agreed, but some didn't. Let's wait and get opinions on getting rid of relationships all together before taking any one out. -Dylan0513 21:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Dylan's opinion's on policies aside (let's not go down that road again, OK?) acting unilaterally in the middle of a discussion is bad form. We have talk pages for a reason. Remember that WP:CONS is policy, too.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Tragic Hero

Zuko meets most of the requirements of a Tragic Hero. And note that a tragic hero is often a protagonist, but can be an antagonist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.60.143.195 (talk) 13:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

He's not a protagonist. And don't make up statistics like that. -Dylan0513 13:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean he's not a protagonist? Did you not watch the first season? H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 22:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

He's an antagonist... I really hope you were being sarcastic. -Dylan0513 00:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You know, i think the internet needs a sarcasim symbol :-P. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 05:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, in this situation it's inappropriate though. -Dylan0513 13:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah, he is some of the things listed on that page, but just because someone has those characteristics doesn't necessarily mean that they have to die at the end of the series. There aren't rules on how you have to work a storyline. It isn't set into stone anywhere. Just because someone is a king of sorts, and they have flaws, and they suffer more than they deserve, and all the other stuff listed here, doesn't mean they have to die. Anything could happen. Oh, and Zuko is mostly an antagonist. Not a protagonist. Bagpipeturtle 01:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess I shouldn't put my speculation on this without enough support behind it, forgot this is discussion not forum. Sorry about that. I'll change the original post to show just the facts.

I'd call him a tragic villain, even though he's hardly a villainus character, espicially compared most of the other character we see in the Fire Nation. FiercedietylinkX —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiercedeitylinkX (talk • contribs) 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

although, with the western air temple episode over, its not fair to call him a villain anymore...Dragon queen4ever (talk) 19:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The Blue Spirit (Character) Article

You must have deleted my Blue Spirit (Character) article because I didn't use the talkpage first. If you added an article like Clark Kent and Superman, you can't add an article like The Blue Spirit (Character) for Zuko? You should have also put up articles for the superhero's alter egos like Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker if you put up Clark Kent and Superman. Sometimes, this site can just get a little weird. But if your reason is that I didn't use the talkpage first, fine. But can I just put up an article for the blue spirit (character) again? Jimblack 23:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Jimblack

I don't think the Blue Spirit really has enough information to have its own page. I think just being put in Zuko's page is sufficent. Bagpipeturtle 23:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Jim, you're probably talking to me there? You can't just go on an article's talk page and address me as "you". I doubt anyone else understood who you were talking to. Anyway, I didn't delete ANY of the articles you created. I've only notified you of article deletions and kept in touch with you. I suggested you use talk pages to gain consensus for major changes and article creations. If people know what you're up to, they can either help you or talk you out of it. Also, if someone leaves you a message on your talk page, you should respond to it. That's all I said and I see you've been taking my advice to heart. As to your Clark Kent/Superman argument: They are the same person, so creating 2 articles would be redundant. Lastly, I know very little about Avatar, so don't as me.--Atlan (talk) 00:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Mai 2

Okay, I know a lot of people want to add Mai now that she's suppose to kiss Zuko in Season 3, but nothing have changed yet. NOt much is known about their relationship except that they well kiss. Until Season 3 airs, I don't think Mai should be added to the relationship section. Lionheart08 13:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the comics count as canon or not, but in the new all-Avatar issue of Nick magazine, Zuko and Mai get set up on a date and they reconnect, along with Mai giving Zuko a short kiss. But yeah, I think the article can survive until there's some more visual evidence from the show. There're only five days left until "The Awakening" after all. TakaraLioness 23:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

As stated multiple times in places way too various for me to list (just call it a day and check Avatarspirit), the comics are 100% canon. In itself a collaboration between the show's writers (i.e. Aaron Ehasz, Ethan Spaulding, Josh Hamilton, Katie Mattila, etc) and various comic artists (including Johane Matte aka Rufftoon), serving as a bridge for the lil time jump between 2 and 3. For the record, I'm explainin it like this to serve as reference for if info from the mag starts being put up. Father's Wish II 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Alright then. Thanks. :) TakaraLioness 11:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's Position

First off for Zuko is his position; Exiled Prince, just Prince, or ex-exiled prince(last one was a joke)? Keyblade Mage 02:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Keyblade Mage

He is the Crown Prince. -- Madd the sane (talk) 18:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No longer is he crown prince, as of "Day of the Black Sun Part 2: The Eclipse"(which has aired,and uploaded to the internet) he chooses to put down his crown and follow/join aang and help him learn firebending, and help him fight against the firelord -- variables1 01:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but have you been reading any of the talk pages. The Day of Black Sun HAS NOT AIRED. Uploaded to the internet does not equal being aired on television. Enough already, people, all you have to wait is another 10 days, or three if Canada airs Friday. Give it a rest already! 春・Harukaze・風 15:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Nickname Zuzu

Does anyone know, what "zuzu" means? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.74.165 (talk) 21:37, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Does it have to mean something? TakaraLioness 00:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh... I'm pretty sure it's just short for "Zuko". Lots of nicknames are like that, using/repeating part of the full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.0.116 (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Zuko's mother...

Call it speculation, but I believe that the series has given sufficient evidence for the argument that Princess Ursa is dead.

In "Zuko Alone", Azula tells Zuko that Azulon ordered to have Ozai's first-born killed so he may learn to respect Iroh. Ursa then visits her son in the middle of the night and tells him that everything she has done has been to protect him, and then she 'goes missing'. The most logical explanation would be that she sacrificed herself to prevent Zuko from being killed. Also, as it states in the article, the dragon in Zuko's dream says to "sleep just like mother", which seems like an obvious reference to her death.

--Marshmello 22:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Still, it is speculation. Even though this may seem to be the most logical explanation for these sequences it still can't be added because it's not been confirmed. Unless an official source states she's dead it can't be added. For all we know she could still be out there somewhere or she might've sacrificed herself. But that's just it - 'might have.' There's a ton of possibilities for her current position and no matter the amount of evidence the show adds it can't be considered the truth unless it is deliberately stated or mentioned in the context. But good thoughts, though! I hope that answers it! :) GeneralIroh ^{(Leave a message after the beep if you gotta problem.)} 00:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Here is what I have to say about Zuko's mother. I wrote this on another wiki article.

In Book 3, Chapter 11, there is a scene with Fire Lord Ozai and Prince Zuko. Prince Zuko goes about to speak his mind during the Solar Eclipse, when all firebenders are powerless for the duration of the eclipse. As soon as Prince Zuko is dont speaking, he approaches the door, then Fire Lord Ozai tells Prince Zuko, "Don't you want to know what happened to your mother?" Prince Zuko responds, "What happened that night?" and Fire Lord Ozai responds, "My father, Fire Lord Azulon, commanded me to do the unthinkable, to you, my own son, and I was going to do it. But your mother found out, and swore she would protect you at any cost. She knew I wanted the throne, and she proposed a plan. A plan in which I would become fire lord, and your life would be spared. Your mother did vicious, treasonous things that night. She knew the consequences, and accepted them. For her treason, she was banished." Prince Zuko responds, "So she's alive" with a tear in his eye. Then Fire Lord Ozai responds, "Perhaps." And this is all that is said about Ursa.

Vnarang (talk) 00:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Who's older?

Where has it been said that Zuko is older than Azula, much less by 2 years? I don't recall any statement in the show of their relative ages, and their interpersonal dynamic suggests to me that she's the elder. -- AvatarMN 06:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the official site has their ages, I think. TakaraLioness 18:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, in the flashbacks of Zuko Alone, it's pretty clear that he's the elder, IMO. Bagpipeturtle 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any character bios on the official site, where is it? And what about "Zuko Alone" suggests he's older? In it he says he's heir to the throne, but females may not be eligible. -- AvatarMN 06:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, on the little episode info bit for "The Avatar State," in the Character's section, it has a description of Azula that reads, "...Azula is Zuko's 14-year-old younger sister." And in "Avatar Roku," Iroh tells Zuko that sailing into Fire Nation waters was the most foolish thing that Zuko's done in his sixteen years. TakaraLioness 12:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I see... But the website isn't necessarily canon. I wish they'd put it in the show, it's a fairly important detail. -- AvatarMN 17:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Er.. Since when is the site not canon? Okay... Well, even if Azula is mentally older than Zuko, she's biologically younger. I mean, didn't the creators state at a convention that she was his younger sister? And the Avatar-exclusive magazines say the same, I'm sure... TakaraLioness 21:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you know what canon means? The only website I can think of (I'm sure there are more) that was canon is Donnie Darko's. And that's maybe only because it debuted after the film was in the can and the creators couldn't touch the film any more, but Avatar is ongoing. Not even things that creators say in public and print but never put into the source material itself can always be considered canon, because they may change their mind, and instead put something contradictory into canon. Things J.K. Rowling said, and documents she displayed, later went on to be revised and contradictory information was put by her into the Harry Potter books themselves. I'm not saying Azula isn't younger, after this discussion I concede that she probably is. I'm just saying the canon (the show) never says, and it's easy to infer from the canon that Zuko's the younger sibling, and that's something the creators need to fix by putting this fact into the canon. -- AvatarMN 17:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Temporary Semi-Protected Status

Please note that I have requested and received semi-protected status for this page. The protection will stand for 18 days, until the actual airing of The Day of Black Sun episodes. As these two episodes were leaked and have not aired anywhere legally, we should not include content from those episodes on these pages.

I have seen varying release dates for these episodes overseas. The only "official" date I have seen for the UK is the 30th, like the US, but I have heard that the UK and Canada might see these episodes one week earlier, on the 23rd. If this is the case, I will request for these pages to be unlocked - US release, as one user pointed out, is not the original air date.

Until then, please, please do not make edits to these pages regarding the unaired content. They will be reverted. 春Harukaze風 20:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

i believe the official air date for the us is the 23 based on the commercials on nick they are to be shown each consecutive week and next friday the 16th will be 309 so 310 will be on the 23rd —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akuzio (talk • contribs) 07:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Nick has decided to preempt Avatar with a Spongebob marathon. *sighs* Of all things to delay Avatar, it had to be Spongebob. I felt greatly insulted when I read that. 春Harukaze風 11:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems that some users with accounts are still posting Day of Black Sun spoilers on the pages. You might want to increase the protection level. Just my suggestion. 68.175.106.168 19:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The Powers That Be™ didn't think the problem was bad enough to warrant a full lock. They don't seem to do that very often, sadly. I'll try to check these pages out tonight. Especially the secondary character list, someone [was it you I think?] mentioned there're still spoilers we missed, but I shouldn't even be on wiki from work >.> 春Harukaze風 20:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed a spoiler on Mai's section of the secondary characters' page. Full protection is indeed very rare, but for good reason; suppose, say, Mike and Bryan publish a new interview with important Zuko information in the next 16 days. Or even just copyediting by established editors and such is enough to warrant less-than-full protection. Vandalism or edit warring needs to be extremely bad before full protection overcomes such considerations. As it is, semi-protection brings the spoilers down to a manageable level, as long as we remain vigilant. --Herald Alberich 20:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Somebody put a spoiler/speculation on the talk page. Removed. Oh, I though I would mention that according to the wikipedia guidelines [2], I am allowed to remove comments not relevant to improving the article, such as that one. 68.175.106.168 (talk) 23:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Romve Temporary Semi-Protected Status

I think it is time we removed the Temporary Semi-Protected Status it was added and supposed to stay till DoBS aired, both part have aired already (I don't know how or if I can remove it, sorry). Joeking16 (talk) 20:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You'd have to go back to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and request the protection be removed. Personally, I think it'd be easier at this point to just let it expire on its own tomorrow. --Herald Alberich (talk) 17:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't sure how it worked so I thought you had to have it removed instead of letting it expire. Joeking16 (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirecting lightning

"Zuko has yet to use it in combat." is now incorrect as of episode 11 of book 3 where he demonstrated this ability. --M.A. (talk) 06:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

When the episode airs on TV, then we can say that. Until then, we have to leave it this way. The Placebo Effect (talk) 06:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does the article say he can redirect lightning? In addition, there is also a spoiler/speculation on the section about Ursa. Please remove immediately.68.175.106.168 (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Generations

Can anyone explain to me how there have only been 2 generations of zuko's family in 100 years? Sozin was old when Aang was born. it's now 112 years after Aang's birth. But there have only been two generations between that and zuko who isn't much older than aang. Unless Azulon was born incredibly late in Sozin's life and Ozai was born when Azulon was an old man (which we can see isn't true since Ozai was full grown with children of his own in Azulon's old age)it doesn't seem possible. Even assuming Azulon was born the same day as Aang he would have had to wait until he was in his 60's or so to have Ozai who doesn't appear old at the time of the series. In the real world a generation averages about 25 years in most countries. On the other hand, Iroh does appear much older. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.203.143.61 (talk) 13:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh God... It's like DragonBall Z... SO MANY PLOTHOLES... AAAHHHHH!!

But really. Does it matter? What relevence will it have to the article?[[User:SxeFluff--SxeFluff (talk) 05:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)]] :01, 21 November 2007

doesn't matter at all. was just wondering —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.21.223 (talk) 00:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

no explicit facts are given to explain the generation gap, but a "normal" life span, (60-80 years) is not explicitly stated either. If anything, long life spans are established, such as in King Bumi, Avatar Kyoshi, and Guru Pathik who are at least 100 years old. And according to Azula from "The Avatar and the Firelord, Fire Lord Sozin was 'ancient' at the time of his death".

Day of Black Sun info

So some of us know that the episode "The Day of Black Sun" (both parts) have been posted on the internet, even though they haven't aired on television yet. If any of you have seen these episodes you know Zuko's role in the story has changed drastically. I was wondering if everyone was waiting for the actual episodes to air before posting information about Zuko from them or if it's all right to post the information now and it was just that no one has done it yet? Unknown Dragon (talk) 12:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The general decision was made to not allow DOBS info until it officially airs. That goes for all avatar pages. Hopefully, that will be soon, I'm sick of reverting people and I'm sure most the other editors are too. Derekloffin (talk) 18:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the reasons that no information from DOBS will be posted is that there is no reliable source and the episode has not aired. The episodes were stolen from Viacom and posted on the internet. However, with the edit messages on the page, can edits that post illegally obtained information be considered bad faith? Vandalism seems to be fairly low right now. I haven't seen the episodes and get annoyed whenever some plot detail is revealed when I'm checking the pages. 68.175.106.168 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In the two part "Day of th Black Sun" Chapter, Prince Zuko announces his intentions to join the Avatar. Zuko approaches the Firelord during the Solar Eclipse and tells him that he intends the abandon the Fire Nation to assist the Avatar in defeating the Firelord. The Firelord then distracts Zuko by telling him that his mother may, in fact, be alive, but has been banished many years ago in exchange for sparing Zuko's life as a child. This distraction causes Zuko to stay past the solar eclipse and the Firelord attempts to attack him, but Zuko escapes. The episode ends showing Zuko in a Fire Nation air balloon following the Avatar and his group to the Western Air Temple where they plan to find refuge after the invasion fails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.91.195.244 (talk) 03:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Relationships

I see you guys, finally, got rid of Aang's relationship section. I think we should do the same for Zuko. All the information is already presented in the story section anyway. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 16:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

So Your the bastard who removed Aang's relationship section. How Dare you. Some people like to read the relationship sections! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.54.223 (talk) 00:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The relationship section in Aangs article has been removed due to being considered original research, only fair that Zuko and all the other characters have their relationship sections removed as well, as all relationship content seems to be considered original research by Wikipedias standards. [/sarcasm]. Can anyone get the Aang relationship section back? 189.32.153.180 (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

......whatever.......................... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiimanwii1 (talk • contribs) 04:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Main antagonist

While initially, I think past "The Storm" he is no longer the main antagonist, but has become the Anti-hero of the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.224.185 (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent Article decimation

For some reason, unregistered user Heimushi decided to remove the subheadings in the article, got rid of the relationship paragraph with Jin, and added a whole bunch of DOBS spoilers. I'm going to go ahead and revert to the article before this person's first edits, but feel free to change back if you'd like. Magaroja 17:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Zuko in Throne81516.jpg

Image:Zuko in Throne81516.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 19:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Does Zuko fit the description of...

An Anti-villain? Xepeyon 02:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'm changing Zuko's mention of being similar to an anti-hero to being similar to an anti-villain. Anti-heroes refer to the protagonist of a series, which he is not. On the other hand, anti-villain refers to the antagonist who engages in villainous acts, or is simply in opposition to the main character(s), though possesses traits sometimes found in heroes or not found in "evil" villains. Xepeyon (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
• Zuko is an Anti-hero not anti-villain. While originally an antagonist, Book II and III he is clearly not an antagonist in the story any longer but a protagonist. All of Aang's enemies are also in turn Zuko's, so Zhao, Ozai, and Azula are more of the antagonists of the story rather than Zuko. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
• He's Anti-villain. An anti-villain isn't necessarily a "bad" character, but is one in opposition to the series' antagonist. Until the latest episode, he fit the description of an anti-villain, never anti-hero.--Xepeyon (talk) 02:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
• The thing is, anti-villains know what they're doing is wrong, but they do it anyways because they believe there actions benefit a higher cause. Zuko I think did fit the definition of a anti-villain for a time, but obviously the label doesn't fit him anymore. Perhaps there's a better word or phrase that could be used to describe Zuko.Ktulu84 (talk) 03:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Too long?

This article is way too long. Unless anyone has any reasons against it, I will be trimming the article to a more appropriate size. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 18:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for that, and the first target of trimming should be the relationship section. Most of it is redundant with other characters bio's, and what little is useful should be merged into the rest. Derekloffin (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the story section, as that was basicaly a play-by-play analysis of every single episode he has appeared in. Also, the details of the scar's eye mucsles was stupid and useless. --Piemanmoo (talk) 23:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that somebody felt the need to change it back to an overly long, overly detailed plot summary. I'll see if I can fix that. SkepticBanner (talk) 21:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

the Story Section was edited down far, far too much. I'm all for the relationship section, but much has been left out (Western Air temple for instance). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the amount of cutting down was appropriate, for what it's worth. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There wasn't enough information. For instance, it just says that Zhao decided to kill Zuko by assassinating him. The article provided no rational reason why Zhao would do that (rivals certainly isn't enough). If it mentioned the Blue Spirit incident and seeing the duel swords, then it would make perfect sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 06:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We don't need an overly detailed plot summary. I'm going to do my best but I'm still very annoyed at HappyCamper for undoing my edits. Regardless, it is my opinion that the history section is still too long. As for TWAT, that episode has not aired yet so I have no clue what happens in it. SkepticBanner (talk) 09:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Its not too detailed. If anything, its not detailed enough. Someone has edited it again and deleted 100% essential material (for instance, Zuko and Katara speaking in Ba Sing Se. That is very, very, very relavent to the main plot). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.134.228 (talk) 10:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)