User talk:CasualObserver'48

Moved from Talk:List of massacres during the Second Intifada

Hi,

I decided my reply should be here, not in the article talk page, since it's too off-topic.

Your post:

Okedem, first I’d like to know where you think I am ‘at least partially’ correct. It would help me understand where you stand. I appreciate your point; there are those who will never accept Israel. Similarly, there are those who will never accept a Palestinian State. That is the problem for both the PLA and Israel; personally it is also a problem sitting very squarely in America’s lap. All these groups use the 1922 (post-Jordan) Mandate map, but I believe this is is exactly the point. You have your country and they do not. Concerning maps, I will also note the Israel has never declared her borders and has continued to expand (save Sinai). So, this point tends to be somewhat mute, especially considering continued settlements and the Barrier Wall.

I did look at your suggested reference ‘Israeli-Palestinian conflict (under history)’, but note sadly that nothing (apparently) happened in the I/P conflict between ’48 and ’49, between ’67 and ’93 or between ’00 and ’02, which is certainly not the case. (Yes, I also know the ‘main’ article exists.) Concerning Hamas, I will never support their beliefs statement as is, but I will make my own reference to History_of_Hamas#Before_1987_.E2.80.94_Palestinian_Islamic_activities_prior_to_the_creation_of_Hamas and, similarly, History_of_Hezbollah#What_originated_in_Hezbollah. My point is that Israel can do a lot better that it has. It is time to work toward peace, not an endless continuation of ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend”. There is plenty of blame to go around.

On your later post concerning the right of return I agree this could be a real problem; Israel must remain a democratic state or it is lost. I suggest that time is running out and note that this is purely an internal Israeli political problem. Thankfully, however, the right of return includes ‘or reparations’, with which Israel is quite familiar.CasualObserver'48 05:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are partially correct in the fact that the Intifada is very closely connected to the occupation, but it (the occupation) is not the only cause, as evident by their own statements and actions - they (some/most) view the whole of Israel as occupied by "the Zionist entity". So I find it simplistic to say that if there was no occupation (of the West Bank and Gaza Strip), there would be no intifada. Playing "what if" is a rather mute exercise, but there's more to it than just the current occupation.
"You have your country and they do not." - Yes, however, they could have had their country, and would have been larger than anything they'll get now - they vehemently opposed both partition plans - the first, in 1937, suggested a very large majority of Palestine be formed into an Arab state - they refused. The second, still suggested a large Arab state, though smaller than the 1937 plan - they still refused, because they wanted more, or generally opposed the very idea of partitioning the land in any way to give Jews a state.
"Israel has never declared her borders" - a common misconception - though Israel hasn't declared its borders in a single, formal document, most borders have been set in an acceptable legal way (like many other countries) - the border with Egypt is set by the peace treaty, and so is the border with Jordan. Israel has recognized its border with Lebanon as the "Blue Line", demarcated by the UN experts, after the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon, and was very precise about that (to the point of tearing down an outpost, because one of its walls was about a meter beyond the UN determined line. The border with Syria indeed remains unclear, to be determined in future negotiations, like the border with a future Palestinian state. So, basically, most of Israel's border are set and declared, though not all.
"Israeli-Palestinian conflict" - I only reffed that for the emblems...
"Israel can do a lot better that it has" - most certainly. The problem is, the Palestinians don't know when to stop the violence, for their own good. Case in point - the 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. Israel took an extremely difficult step, and removed some 7,000-8,000 settlers from their homes, despite a serious internal struggle. It completely left the Strip, leaving no settlers, or army presence behind (though still controlling the sea and air). What did it get for this, a possible pilot for a major withdrawal, obviously necessary for a Palestinian State? It got violence. The Palestinians somehow claimed the withdrawal was an evil move (since it was done unilaterally - but what does it matter? They got the land, and weren't even asked to give anything for it in negotiations). The rate of Qassam launches only increased, more and more terrorists tried to cross the fence to perform suicide bombings, etc. The they kidnapped a soldier (Shalit) stationed in Sovereign Israeli territory. Instead of using this opportunity to show Israel they can be trusted, that we can live alongside each-other in peace, they chose to continue with the violence. The idea of a Palestinian State has grown from a minority viewpoint (a very small minority, at times), to a majority view. Israelis have mostly given up the idea of controlling the entire Land of Israel. They just can't trust the Palestinians anymore, and with due cause.
The Erez joint-industrial area has been closed for a long time, now. Why? Well, despite giving many Palestinians jobs, it was constantly under attack by Palestinians, who couldn't bear, I guess, to see Israelis and not try to kill them, even when it hurts their own people. Even before the rise of Hamas in the Strip, the border crossings were often closed down, for both persons and goods - preventing people from going to work, study or get medical treatment in Israel, and preventing exports and imports, vital to the Gaza Strip's economy. Why were they closed? Because every time they opened, militants attacked them - again, they saw Israelis in a relatively vulnerable position, and couldn't bear not to attack - again, hurting their own people way more than hurting Israel.

So - plenty of blame to go around (I only wrote about the Palestinians' "blame" here, but believe me - I'm a very strong critic of my own country's actions). okedem 10:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

I appreciate your reply here and agree that I’d gone off-topic; I somewhat knew it at the time, but was partially still cooling down from an earlier un-cool post. I am very new to Wiki and unaware of the best wiki-ways; you’ve taught me one. Sometimes also, my fingers are in motion before my mind is fully engaged….. I am posting my reply on my page, because it’s 'mine', it seemed to make sense, and I don’t know any better (what's the wiki-way?- I've wasted a day trying to find the preferred). Concerning your numbered points:

You wrote: 1. You are partially correct in the fact that the Intifada is very closely connected to the occupation, but it (the occupation) is not the only cause, as evident by their own statements and actions - they (some/most) view the whole of Israel as occupied by "the Zionist entity". So I find it simplistic to say that if there was no occupation (of the West Bank and Gaza Strip), there would be no intifada. Playing "what if" is a rather mute exercise, but there's more to it than just the current occupation.

Simplistic maybe, but it is not untrue, as you note. Current Occupation?- It has continued for 40 years, two generations, older than you. That is not current; that is a fact of life for Palestinians (and you), which too many Israelis and Americans fail to recognize or choose to forget. I strongly believe that the Second Intifada results much more from and is more directly related to the continued occupation, than from the permanent existence of Israel. I am talking about the ‘average Joe’ Palestinians who, dispite what they might (have to?) say in public and inspite of their ‘government’, just want to live in peace and see their children grow old happily.

The continuing occupation, with its increased level of daily humiliation, ghettoization, deteriorating economy (imposed by Israel to limit the First and then Second Intifada), has resulted in only abject hopelessness and no visible way out. This in turn increased the level and type of violence. I will also add your ref here to stress my point. This shows that (though I objected to it and know incidents happened) between ’49 and ’67 when Israel did not occupy the WB&G, (and the focus shifted to the broader Arab front) Israel had a much lower level of violence from the residents. When the Palestinians were occupied in ’67, on top of (pre-’49) dispossessed, they quickly resorted to violence. They had been forgotten by the rest of the world and used as a tool for the broader Arab front. The Palestinian people had gotten nothing in those first 20 years; after ’67, they ended up with less and reacted (violently) for themselves.

The PLO did eventually changed its charter and accept Israel, though they were damned slow in doing it. (I’ll get to ‘Zionist Entity’ maybe later; understanding it is very important). The PLO changed its charter both because they (finally) saw some hope/advantage in recognizing Israel and because they saw a loss of control if they didn’t. I don’t know which was more important, but note that the First Intifada was on-going for years before the PLO finally made the decision. I believe the Palestinians (people) gained credence during the First Intifada because of their stone-throwing tactics, similarly, I’m afraid Israel lost credence because of their tactics in that period.

Both sides have lost credence during the Second Intifada, again because of tactics; the tactics on both sides are those of the radical hard-liners. You are the one living ‘under the gun’; I recognize it is your life on the line. Maybe I should defer to your fears, but I can’t totally because of what I see happening on the other side. Based on my personal experiences, I must defer to Palestinian human rights, over Israeli fears.

Israel absolutely has the power and influence to overcome whatever chance for peace she takes; the PA has very little and the Palestian people have less. I just wish Israel had more hope. Where is your Sadat (and where is the Palestinian’s)? I guess, therefore, it is a ‘what if’. I do not think it is a mute point, however, because it is looking forward, not backward.

You wrote: 2. "You have your country and they do not." - Yes, however, they could have had their country, and would have been larger than anything they'll get now - they vehemently opposed both partition plans - the first, in 1937, suggested a very large majority of Palestine be formed into an Arab state - they refused. The second, still suggested a large Arab state, though smaller than the 1937 plan - they still refused, because they wanted more, or generally opposed the very idea of partitioning the land in any way to give Jews a state.

This argument is absolutely a ‘what if’ mute point. The Zionists of the time were happy to get anything, officially. Similarly, the Arabs at the time (more properly Palestinians) weren’t willing to give up anything, officially, particularly as the result of the last gasp of colonialism and their first chance to act for themselves as a ‘nation’. Really, why should they have, several of the founders of Israel have recognized this. But I guess, with 20/20 hindsight, that the Palestinian’s refusal likely guarenteed the creation of Israel, rather than just a ‘homeland’, which I also guess (in light of future events) the Zionist founders would not have accepted for very long.

You wrote: 3. "Israel has never declared her borders" - a common misconception - though Israel hasn't declared its borders in a single, formal document, most borders have been set in an acceptable legal way (like many other countries) - the border with Egypt is set by the peace treaty, and so is the border with Jordan. Israel has recognized its border with Lebanon as the "Blue Line", demarcated by the UN experts, after the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon, and was very precise about that (to the point of tearing down an outpost, because one of its walls was about a meter beyond the UN determined line. The border with Syria indeed remains unclear, to be determined in future negotiations, like the border with a future Palestinian state. So, basically, most of Israel's border are set and declared, though not all.

This is a fact, okedem, not a misconception; your need to explain-around Israel’s current situation just proves the point. Yes, Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan because of wars, negotiations and a Peace Treaty, perfect, great. The UN Blue Line with Lebanon is a more fuzzy colored line and less perfect, but good progress (something about Shaba(?) Farms). The border with Syria still must be negotiated, but I suspect that there is a less fuzzy colored line somewhere that is mutually agreeable. Since this border has generally been the quietest (excluding Lebanon-related incidents), I don’t expect many problems. The border you don’t have (Israel’s longest?) is the Israel-Palestine border. The Israel-Palestine border is the one Israel hasn’t yet negotiated and declared; it is the border Israel must declare for you to have any hope of peace and security. Most of the world recognizes, and (I believe) the majority of Palestinians will accept, this border to run more-or-less along the Green Line and through Jerusalem.

The border can’t follow the barrier, because that leaves the Palestinians with a non-viable state, which I doubt will allow some of them to live in ‘peace and security with defensable borders….’. The settlements are a violation of International Law, but I’ll live with whatever the Palestinians may accept. The declaration of borders is an act of a sovereign government, subject to negotiations with beligerents, if it is wise. Since Israel crossed the line, and UN 242 was passed in ‘67, the solution has been Land for Peace. This is simplistic, but we are getting much closer to what I see as the crux of the problem (and which I will maybe get into later).

You wrote: 4. "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" - I only reffed that for the emblems...

I know, and then I went off-topic….

I'm having trouble with your 5 and 6. The quick answer is I agree, but..... I didnt want you to think that I was not going to reply. I need more time on these two, because my personal experiences include former West Bankers, rather than former Gazans. There are also things like the dynamic of PA versus Hamas. Give me a while longer. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'm editing here, I hope you don't mind.

1. Yea, no argument here about the causes. I just noted that there's more to it than the occupation (I don't even remember what I meant by "current").

Frankly, the safety of my family, my friends, and my fellow citizens takes precedence over that of another people. So I do support IDF actions that kill militants, even if that means civilians get hurt in some ways. However, I'm for the separation fence, and the whole concept, which can diminish Palestinian interaction with IDF, and give Israelis security. If we are to have two states, they must be separated. However, the Palestinians have quite a successful campaign against it, claiming it's an "apartheid wall", as if the very notion of a fence is evil. While the fence does create problems when it diverges from the Green Line, the underlying concept is necessary. For a Palestinian state to exist, Israel must separate itself from the West Bank. The Palestinians' complete dismissal of the notion lends further credence to the opinion they don't actually want a state in the West Bank and Gaza, but want to take over Israel completely (as will happen with the Right of Return).

3. Hold on - I didn't say all of Israel's borders are set. But the common claim "Israel never declared its borders" is misleading. A peace treaty is a common, recognized way to set a border, and Israel's borders with 2 countries are now set. The West Bank issue is, of course, problematic. The thing is, the claim "Israel never declared.." makes it seem as if Israel is some sort of foggy creature, stretching about, expanding, with no set limits. Also, I'd like to point out that a great many other countries have border disputes (like with Syria) - Britain, Argentina, Pakistan, India, China, Turkey, etc.

5,6 - you really don't have to reply. What I'm saying is this - I am against the occupation. I'd really like to remove all settlements. I don't care about "sacred land", or holy places. Jerusalem can be divided (it was never really united). However, the Palestinians have to "work with us". The supporters of peace in Israel can't continue to support the Palestinians when they work against their own self interest, and the interest of peace.

Their behavior after the Disengagement plan of 2005, which they somehow portrayed as wrong (don't ask me why), was telling. It was very difficult to convince the public to remove the settlements there, and very costly, both financially and politically. The Palestinians had a golden opportunity to show some good will. They failed, and continued their violent ways, destroying their own people as a result.

I cannot defend their cause any more. I don't believe them. I don't trust them. They've shown themselves as incapable of peaceful coexistence, lacking any goodwill. So as far as I'm concerned, I'd still like to remove settlements, to make Israel whole again (as the occupation corrupts us), and make the IDF's job easier. I'd like to build a high wall, and forget about the Palestinians. Their suffering means little to me anymore, because they've used up my goodwill. Speaking for their cause really makes one sound like an idiot nowadays. Opponents can cite so many good evidence against it, I don't know what to say, and don't really care to. The word "Peace" has never rung hollower than now.

In the root of my words here is this - members of the "Peace camp" in Israel feel betrayed by their Palestinian "partners", and so can't really support them any longer. okedem (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diaspora disambig page

Thank you for adding an entry to this page--just in time for Thursday. There's no need, however, to make charges. The page is only nine months olds. African diaspora wasn't listed until the end of September. -Acjelen (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, — Rlevse • Talk • 22:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Casual Observer

I'm really sorry to have missed your previous note! I'm not sure how that happened. You didn't provide a link to the exchange you were referring to, so I've only reviewed what you quoted in your note to me...but in general personal attacks are not very well enforced on Wikipedia. I can't tell you what you should do, but my own approach is to try to have a thick skin. But then I tend to get far more agitated by deliberate obstructionism (endless strawman arguments, moving goalposts, etc.) than by someone calling me names.

As far as the evidence requested, I really don't know what they want at this point. The idea of everyone giving their blow-by-blow resentful recountings is really too much to bear; I hope that's not the idea. But I haven't posted anything yet because I just don't know.

I will keep in touch.--G-Dett (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi; I left you a response explaining your mis-perception. I wasn't responding to you as an individual but to the discussion at hand, and even then in general terms. If you thought that you were called an anti-Semite; I understand how you would feel; but if you read it again you will see clearly that it is not the case. I hope you retract your accusation . Itzse (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]