Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders

Archive 1 (Image talk:Replace this image female.svg)

Replace this image female and Replace this image male are the latest versions of placeholder boxes that have been systematically added to 50,789 living biography articles lacking photos of their central subjects. The boxes link to a specialized upload form and license template system soliciting pertinent photos or illustrations from readers.

Some of these placeholder boxes have been removed from articles, and concerns and objections have been put forward. These include:

The addition of these boxes violates the WP:SELF guideline, which argues that reference to Wikipedia's editable nature should generally not take place within articles.
Most readers would not be able or willing to help; the box detracts from the article for the vast majority of readers, while being useful for only a very few.
By appealing specifically to readers who are not familiar with Wikipedia's approach to copyright, the system will lead to an inordinate number of copyright violations; the fact that most uploaders are presently experienced editors is a good thing.
The system is redundant; there are already initiatives and sidebar links to encourage the uploading of photos.
The boxes are unsightly, resembling advertisements found on commercial websites with for-profit motives.
The boxes suggest the article is inadequate; Wikipedia is always a work-in-progress, but an article without a photo should not be considered inadequate (as an article that lacks references is).

Proponents of the system have stated that the system is already effective at soliciting new photos. They are in the process of documenting this claim. They state:

More than 430 free photos (and illustrations) have been uploaded and filtered in Category:Reviewed images of people replacing placeholders.
The simplified upload form is more user-friendly than Wikipedia's existing system (at least for new users).
The form has a system built in that eases filtering of resulting photos and illustrations for copyvios.
Concerns regarding appearance could be addressed by an understated redesign.
Placeholders are consistent with the philosophy of Wikipedia that encourages everyone to participate, new users especially.

Should the addition of this box be allowed? Does the placeholder system and graphic image need to be improved to satisfy policies and guidelines for inclusion? Is it appropriate to some kinds of biographies, but not to others?

How We Got Here

Prior discussion has taken place in various corners: user talk pages, image talk pages, article talk pages, and at some wikiprojects.

On April 9-11, 2008 there was a "Proposal to suspend all further use of this graphic on article pages pending a centralized discussion" (archived here) at Image talk:Replace this image female.svg. The proposal passed with 18 editors in agreement, 12 editors in disagreement, and 2 abstentions.

User:Kleinzach closed the previous discussion on April 11 and provided a thorough summary in the section Summing up. (The summary is recommended reading; it's nice and succinct.) We then began this centralized discussion. Pending the outcome of this discussion, some editors have agreed to suspend their addition or removal of this placeholder box as we look toward a broader consensus.

For more background, see An overview of image placeholders below.

Conclusion

As agreed below, discussion of the 'Questions' and 'Proposals' will end on Wednesday, April 23 (12.00 GMT/UTC).

Structure of the discussion

How shall we develop this discussion? Should we do it issue by issue? --Kleinzach (talk) 07:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like this approach, yes.-Pete (talk) 05:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We already have a lot of text here, so can I make a plea here for making the discussion as structured as possible? That way newcomers/late joiners will be able to find their way more easily into the debate and not be put off by rambling, off topic threads. The more focused we are, the more likely we are to progress towards an effective consensus. Thanks. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I would suggest newcomers start with the overview at the top of this page, which includes a link to this helpful summary of the previous discussion. Further discussion on specific points is proceeding below, and at the bottom of this page I've added a Proposals section where editors can express their opinion on concrete actions we could take.Northwesterner1 (talk) 07:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Participation

I'm concerned by the lack of participation. Do those who participated in the earlier, more procedural decision (whether to interrupt image placement pending discussion) feel that they've already had their say? We should be sure that those who are interested express their views here. Also, have we done enough outreach to broaden the discussion? I think contacting the Footballers and Opera singers and Oregon WikiProjects (which discussed the issue) would be worthwhile, also the Free Images WikiProject, and possibly writing something up for the Wikipedia Sign Post. (Something that has affected 50k articles, and stands to affect many more, seems worthy of a Signpost mention to me.) Thoughts? Should I do some of this outreach? Is anybody else doing it, or interested in doing it? (I think our conclusion, whatever it is, should reflect the views of as broad a group as possible.) -Pete (talk) 05:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the initial heat and urgency may have gone out of the debate, but this may be a good thing if we are going to work for a rational solution. This more detailed second stage of the discussion may develop slowly. I've already notified Free images and the Classical music projects (Classical music, Contemporary music and Opera) about the centralized discussion here. Northwesterner1 has covered the Biography project. If you like to add something to the Wikipedia Sign Post - or anything else you thing is worthwhile - that will be great. --Kleinzach (talk) 08:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also think many people feel like they've already "voted." It's a shame to see low participation here, since the outcome of that discussion was split right down the middle. Would it be appropriate to post a link to this discussion on the talk page of everyone who commented in the prior discussion?Northwesterner1 (talk) 10:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I posted here:

Northwesterner1 (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)‎[reply]

I'm happy to be overruled, but in my opinion it's not necessary to post directly to all previous participants. Putting something in the Signpost will complete our notification process. Having more people involved does not necessarily help in forming our conclusions. (BTW the result of the vote was 18:12 which is not exactly "split right down the middle".) --Kleinzach (talk) 11:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think a broad consensus will be needed, given that this issue affects so many articles. Pete, I think you should run with the signpost notification if you're willing. We may also want to consider setting a defined time limit or some other method by which we might know when this discussion is complete.Northwesterner1 (talk) 07:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please allow reasonable time for people to learn that the issue has been raised. For example, I've been online quite a bit in last two days, but just chanced on a mention of the matter a few minutes ago. Wanderer57 (talk)

<outdent>Signpost article: I pitched it here, it's technically past the deadline but I haven't gotten any response about whether that's a problem, and it seems that the content is still under discussion. On that page you will find a link to my draft. I think if a couple other people endorse the draft (with some editing if you like, feel free), I think that would enhance the chances of it getting published. Just a hunch. -Pete (talk) 04:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've done some editing. --Kleinzach (talk) 08:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appears well done to me; fair and balanced overview. DoubleBlue (Talk) 14:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I realised that no-one had advertised this discussion on the mailing list, so I've just done so. --Cherry blossom tree 17:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good move. I find there is sorely only a few people involved in this when there are many more players regarding the outcome. Make note on your WikiProjects. Guroadrunner (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion was briefly mentioned on the most recent (episode 46, I think) Wikipedia Weekly podcast. One person said she was unsure, one said the placeholders were ugly but then the discussion moved over to discussing other image-related issues. --Cherry blossom tree 10:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppets: Take note

Note: that Insearchofintelligentlife (talk · contribs) and Divinediscourse (talk · contribs) are the same person. Thatcher 21:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I see the user has been blocked. How should we handle noting this in the discussion above? (And especially in the proposals section, where s/he seems to have voted twice. Strikeout? Delete entirely?) Northwesterner1 (talk) 00:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably strikeout with an annotation. (It's always better to avoid deleting.) --Kleinzach (talk) 02:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have now struck out the Divinediscourse votes. I hope that is a satisfactory way of handling that problem. --Kleinzach (talk) 03:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked very closely at this, but since both appear to be indefinitely blocked I'd be tempted to strike out any votes either has made but leave any contributions to the discussion (with a note, perhaps.) The basis for this is that if their arguments are worthwhile, they are still worthwhile even if the source is questionable. --Cherry blossom tree 10:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that only one of the accounts was a sockpuppet. Is that right? --Kleinzach (talk) 10:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I would consider any valid discussion points they made are still valid, just made by one person rather than two. If there are "votes" to be counted, you could either count one or none, although if there was any issue where one vote arguably made the difference in the outcome, then there is probably no real consensus anyway. Thatcher 11:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's wisdom in this. --Cherry blossom tree 11:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Given both are newly created, I would suspect that they are both socks of a longer-standing user who has already voted. Therefor my inclination is to diregard the votes of both.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. I've now struck out the votes of Insearchofintelligentlife as well. I hope that's satisfactory. --Kleinzach (talk) 13:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Concluding the discussion (deciding the closing date)

The debate is winding down and some people have been talking about setting a closing date. Any thoughts about this? --Kleinzach (talk) 13:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your original proposal (in the archived discussion) was on April 9, 2008. I would suggest a two week window of discussion which would meen a closing on April 23, 2008. That is five days from now but it still gives plenty of time for former participants in the old discussion to contribute their opinions and for other editors to participate.Nrswanson (talk) 13:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's over when it's over. Setting dates is foolish.Genisock2 (talk) 13:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would support April 23 (mid-day GMT/UTC). I think that's reasonable. We've had over 40 participants now - that's not bad. Based on the last few days I can't see much happening between now and the 23rd. --Kleinzach (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a fair date to me.Broadweighbabe (talk) 15:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understand. I thought we were supposed to work toward a consensus and it seems to have devolved into a vote. WP:POLLS, WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. DoubleBlue (Talk) 20:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:POLLS page talks about polls not being a substitute for discussion -- clearly, the majority of interest here has been on the discussion, but the polls have allowed us to more easily see the viewpoints of contributors. From WP:PRACTICAL: Consensus is not unanimity. Looking around at WP:AfD for a bit will show that of the discussions which are not "No consensus," the vast majority have a minority opinion which is not convinced at the end; this can still be consensus. Genisock2's view that "It's over when it's over" seems to imply that no change in status quo can occur until unanimity is reached--if this were the case, nothing could get done on this encyclopedia. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 22:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you but I don't see how a deadline fits into this. We should continue to discuss and work toward greater consensus. I will abide by a solution that gets developed through a process even if I'm still not satisfied but to cut off debate at an arbitrary date is not working toward consensus. As you know, AfDs with no consensus result in status quo. DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this case I am not sure broader consensus is going to be possible. I think the majority of people are pretty anti-image placeholder. Although wikipedia is not a democracy, upholding the status quo is sometimes in the best interest of wikipedia. Compromise and change are not necessarily always good things. I personally think that without an ending date set this debate will go on forever with no lasting resolutions.Insearchofintelligentlife (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who's spoken of "seeking a broader consensus" several times, let me clarify: I was never saying we should seek unanimity, but rather that we should broaden the number of voices in the discussion, to be sure all points of view had been heard, that we fully understood the history of the system, etc. I am now satisfied that has occurred. I am just back from 2+ days away, and see that nothing substantially new has been added to the discussion. I think it's time to set a date for conclusion. -Pete (talk) 05:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Three editors (including myself) have supported April 23 as the date (see above). Is that too early? My understanding that the end date is the time when we close comments and start archiving the discussion section by section. Northwesterner1 suggested summarizing each section. I don't know if he is still up for that? I don't know whether anybody else is willing to volunteer? --Kleinzach (talk) 05:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I will support April 23. I like the idea of summarizing the discussion, I'm not sure if "section-by-section" is best -- it could work, but my thought would be to start a little fresher than that, and try to summarize the discussion as a whole. My outline would look roughly like this:

Background on where the placeholder came from (the consensus that was its starting point)
Description of the placeholder system and its strengths
Description of primary objections to placeholder system
Note strong opposition to semi-automated insertion of the placeholder
Note strong support for the solicitation of free images from readers
Note the things that some editors said might make the system more acceptable (even if technically difficult)
Recommend a one-time removal of all instances of the placeholder that were inserted by automated process. (Or maybe all instances, if it's not possible to differentiate how they were placed?)

That's my general sense of the discussion. I'd rather see something of that format, than a summary of each section. -Pete (talk) 05:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer to see a two stage process. First close down the sections adding implicitly neutral summaries. Question 1 would be put to bed, then Question 2 etc. Having done that we can get to the final stage of interpreting the rough consensus of the forum.

I feel your bulleted list above is a judgement rather than a summary. It lists a number of controversial points, risking rejection from both sides. For example, in my case, while I agree with most of your points, I don't agree with all of them. (I'm not going into details because this is the obviously the wrong place.) --Kleinzach (talk) 06:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also support a April 23 date for closing the discussion. No new directions have emerged in the discussion. I have no preference as to "section" summaries or an overall summary as Pete proposes.Northwesterner1 (talk) 08:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good. As we have at least determined the date, I have announced it above. Now perhaps we can discuss the method? --Kleinzach (talk) 09:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree now that it may be nearing time to draw this portion of the discussion to a close. I really think the next thing to do is to summarise the concerns and work toward means to address those concerns and leave most sides satisfied. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Best method of summarizing the discussion?

We need to adopt a way of summarizing the discussion that is rigorously accurate, fair and neutral. IMO the simplest way to do this is to do separate summaries for each section (Questions, Proposals and miscellaneous). What do people think? Is this OK, or is there a better method available that will win more general acceptance? (See also Pete's suggestion above) --Kleinzach (talk) 09:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Summarizing by section seems a reasonable thing to do in any event. I think it may be worth also making a more general summary, and some recommendations, based on the section summaries. (Most significantly, the history provided by Genisock wound up buried in the discussion, but its proper place is in the introduction. Correcting that would be a good thing.) So -- can the summarizing begin now, or do we need to wait until the 23rd? -Pete (talk) 23:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good. I certainly agree with doing section summaries first and then moving to a general summary/conclusion. Doing objective, accurate section summaries first will help with the end process. My suggestion would be to wait until the deadline and then firmly close all the Questions and Proposals, then do the summaries, however perhaps we can decide who will do which section now? For example who will do 'Question 1. WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible?' ? I would be willing to do do Question 2 and/or Proposal 1 and/or Proposal 3 (depending on how many volunteers we get) as I feel I understand those sections better than some of the others. (Re. the history you refer to: why not simply move it now to an appropriate place? BTW I'd be grateful if you could copyedit it so I can understand it!) --Kleinzach (talk) 23:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW I'd also recommend moving all the existing sections to subpages and putting all the summaries on the main page. Is that acceptable? --Kleinzach (talk) 23:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with moving all the content currently on this page to subpages and creating some form of summary of the discussion here. I'm also happy to pitch in with the summarising, where necessary. --Cherry blossom tree 11:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if you would like to have a go at Section 10 Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders/Ideas for modification of the image placeholder? This is quite technical and might benefit from being done by someone who is 'pro-box'. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'pro-box' but I don't consider myself any more than moderately technical. --Cherry blossom tree 23:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on Q1. -Pete (talk) 14:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest a word limit for each of the Questions so we get a balance. How about 350 words? (My summing up of the initial discussion was 800 words). The Questions that didn't take off could obviously be shorter. Also i wonder if we should make Section 10 Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders/Ideas for modification of the image placeholder into Question 8 to remove the anomaly. If so what should it be called? --Kleinzach (talk) 23:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think any word limit should be suggested, rather than enforced. I agree with encouraging brevity, though. --Cherry blossom tree 23:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes, suggested not enforced if you want to put it that way . . . but more important is 350 words the right number? --Kleinzach (talk) 23:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The two I've done have landed in at about 300-350 words. They were fairly lengthy sections, but I suspect that proposal 1, for example, might require more. --Cherry blossom tree 15:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signing up for the summaries

Seems like there is general agreement on methods. I guess we should aim to write the summaries over the next 24 to 36 hours or so. Sign-ups below. Northwesterner1 (talk) 00:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Q1 - Pete / done
Q2 - Kleinzach (will complete this on 25th)
Q3 - Northwesterner1 / done
Q4 - Drhoehl / done (hope you hadn't already started, Kleinzach - No, thanks very much K.)
Q5 - Myke Cuthbert (done -- was a short, easy one)
Q6 - Northwesterner1 / done
Q7 - Jaksmata (done)
Q8 - Cherry Blossom Tree (Done)
History? - DoubleBlue will have a go in a day but welcomes others participation
Prop 1 - Kleinzach / done
Prop 2 - Jaksmata (done)
Prop 3 - Cherry Blossom Tree (Done)
Prop 4 - Jaksmata (done)
Other props - Northwesterner1 / done

I hope we can spread this around. (I've written to DoubleBlue asking if he will help.) I suggest the summaries go on this page under their headings and followed by the links to the subpages. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've done Q8 - feel free to edit if I've missed anything important. I'll have a bash at another one, but not right now. --Cherry blossom tree 11:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Can you sign you summary as Northwesterner1 has done Q3? --Kleinzach (talk) 13:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK. --Cherry blossom tree 15:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question 1. WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible? (subpage)

See Question 1. WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible? which now has its own subpage.

WP:SELF: Are placeholders compatible?

Are the placeholders incompatible with the guideline Self-references to avoid?

The guideline generally cautions against making reference to Wikipedia, or to the editable nature of Wikipedia, in main article space.

There was a fair amount of discussion about what specific part(s) of the guideline would apply to the placeholders, and a fair amount of comparison to {{stub}} tags, {{expand}} tags, and other tags such as {{refimprove}}, {{cleanup}}, which are similar in at least some respects to the placeholders, and are in widespread use.

Points raised in arguing for compatibility

It was noted that {{stub}} tags and numerous other widely-used tags make reference to Wikipedia's editable nature, and are widely used.
Placeholders do not refer to "Wikipedia" by name.
Image placeholders encourage significant one-off contributions from people who will never become Wikipedians - contributions we would otherwise have little chance of getting.
WP:SELF is merely guideline, not policy.
Photos are essential parts of articles, in order to become featured, when it's expected they are available.

Points raised in arguing against compatibility

Stubs and expand templates are explicitly allowed by the guideline, in the section "Community and website feature references". The exemption refers to articles in their "initial development."
If that explicit allowance is in error, that is not necessarily a reason to allow placeholders. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
Stubs are designed to draw attention to a deficiency in essential information; photos are not essential information. (Not required for good article status]].)
Many of the tags mentioned serve a dual role, both inviting editors to improve artices, and warning the reader of a deficiency. The placeholders have no purpose as a warning, as it's plainly apparent when a photo is absent.
Stubs are relatively unobtrusive; small, and at the bottom of an article. Placeholders, by contrast, are large and in the most prominent part of the article (top right.)
Stubs and similar tags don't make appeals like "Do you have the ability to fix this?, Do you own one?"
Placeholders "look like advertisements."
Many readers are capable of expanding an article, improving neutral point of view, cleaning up an article, etc.; relatively few own a photo, or are in a position to take one.
Talk page template requesting photos {{reqphoto}} already exists. Talk page is more appropriate for appeals to expand an article.
Since the placeholders are objectionable and therefore distracting to a significant number of readers, “avoid unless compelling reasons unique to a particular article counsel otherwise.”

Other points

Placeholders, unlike stub tags and other tags, appear in printouts of Wikipedia articles. Technical difficulties have prevented the inclusion of the {{image class}} template, which would suppress printout. (It was suggested it might be possible to overcome the technical difficulties.)
If WP:SELF guideline is being widely ignored (e.g. with stub tags), it may be best to change the guideline.

Nine editors felt the placeholders are compatible with WP:SELF guideline; eleven felt they are not. One editor said he "didn't care"; additionally, two other editors (one "voting" each way) had significant qualifications attached to their positions.

Question 2. Are placeholders successful in soliciting pictures? (subpage)

See Question 2. Are placeholders successful in soliciting pictures? which now has its own subpage.

Question 3. Is a biography without a photo of its central subject inadequate?

Summary & Conclusions

Northwesterner1 posed the question: Is a biography without a photo of its central subject inadequate? Wikipedia consensus suggests that templates can be used on the main page of articles that have certain types of inadequacies -- POV bias, lack of references, etc. Is a biography without a photo inadequate in the same way?

Eight editors agreed that the answer is generally no: Northwesterner1, Broadweighbabe, Nrswanson, Kleinzach, Pete, Fishal, jaksmata, Guroadrunner. Jaksmata observed that many articles in the Encyclopedia Britannica have no images, and Broadweighbabe and Pete noted that many good articles on Wikipedia don't have photos of their subjects. Two editors disagreed: Phil Sandifer and Geni. They argued that GA/FA reviews require or strongly encourage photos, and that this requirement constitutes evidence that articles without photos are inadequate. Northwester1 countered that articles don't have to be GA-class to meet a baseline Wikipedia standard of adequate and acceptable content.

Two editors, Cherry blossom tree and DoubleBlue, sought to reframe the question. As Cherry blossom tree said, the real questions should be "Are image placeholders inherently pointing to an article's inadequacy?" and "Is this an acceptable side effect?"

So Northwesterner1 posed the subquestions:

Do the placeholder boxes suggest that articles are inadequate? Six editors said yes ("they broadcast a message that there is something wrong with the article"), one said no ("it says it can be improved in the same way edit buttons say it").
Is the suggestion of inadequacy an acceptable side effect? Here the response was mixed: Two maybe’s, two no’s.

An additional question asked whether past discussion about fair use vs. free images indicates consensus that images are necessary. Editors agreed that past discussions were not directly related to the matter at hand.

Overall, the consensus in this section appears clear: Biographies lacking photos of their central subjects are acceptable on Wikipedia. They are incomplete, and they can be improved. But they are not inadequate. The current placeholders do suggest that articles are inadequate. Whether this is an acceptable side effect depends on how we weigh the larger questions at stake in this debate.

(Summary by Northwesterner1. I hope I've done a fair job of it. Northwesterner1 (talk) 09:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

For the full discussion see Question 3. Is a biography without a photo of its central subject inadequate?

See also the following subquestions on the same page:

Question 4. Placeholders and Wikipedia 'style': are they compatible?

Summary & Conclusions

In posing this question, Kleinzach observed that it had engendered heated, polarized debate in the original discussion, with the “pro-box” camp viewing boxes as emphasizing Wikipedia’s function as a storehouse for free content and its status a work in progress and the “anti-box” camp’s concerns as being that the boxes are unattractive and evocative of commercial advertising. As a point of departure for further debate, he asked whether these viewpoints admit of any middle ground and whether perhaps, in this instance, Wikipedia might do well to adopt an ad hoc approach rather than universal rules. The response, while again polarized, was light: Nrswanson responded in opposition to abandoning universal rules, while Jmabel found that concept to embody desirable flexibility. The sole other response came from Guroadrunner, who commented that the greyscale images are offensive and that plain text with a border would be preferable. Thus, while the discussion overall did not favor placeholders in their present form, neither did it evoke a clear consensus.

Summary by Drhoehl, who hopes he got it right.

For the full discussion, see Question 4. Placeholders and Wikipedia 'style': are they compatible?

Question 5: What would the ideal system look like (leaving aside practical and technical limitations)?

Summary & Conclusions

User:Peteforsyth asked what the ideal system would look like if there were no limitations imposed by the MediaWiki software. The discussion solicited 18 comments by 10 different users. There were few differences with the proposals solicited above, either by those generally in favor of image placeholders or by those against, suggesting that technical limitations are not among the main constraints in the discussion.

Even if technical limitations against moving the location of the placeholder were removed, some users preferred the current location at the top of the page. However, a hypothetical move of the request for image (with a small image link) to the bottom of the page was considered an acceptable compromise by four users. Whether shrinking the size of the image placeholder would be a good thing (if possible) was debated, with accessibility issues being raised; the matter was unresolved.

(summary by M.S.Cuthbert)

For the full discussion see Question 5: What would the ideal system look like?

Question 6: Do placeholders help discourage editors from uploading non-free (i.e. fair use) images?

Summary

Hammersoft provided an anecdote about how the image placeholder works in practice. S/he patrols biographies of living persons, removing fair-use images (which are against Wikipedia's policies on BLPs) and replacing them with placeholders. Hammersoft reported that when s/he replaces a fair-use image with a placeholder, the chance that someone will put another fair-use image up on the article is greatly reduced. Hammersoft suggested that this reduced recidivism rate was an overlooked benefit of the placeholders that had not been discussed.

Nrswanson, Northwesterner1, and Broadweighbabe (in the side comments) agreed that there could be some benefit to this use if the trend indeed holds across Wikipedia; however, they said the additional benefit did not outweigh the existing negatives.

Nrswanson, jaksmata, and Kleinzach concluded that there were still many copyright violations in Category:Images of people replacing placeholders, and they didn't see evidence that the image placeholders were working well to keep out unusable images. (See Question 2. Are placeholders successful in soliciting pictures? for related discussion.)

Northwesterner1 and Carcharoth (in the side comments) raised the additional question of whether image placeholders do a disservice by discouraging editors from adding fair-use images to dead person bios. Proponents of the placeholders say that the guidelines suggest limiting their use to BLPs only; however, Northwesterner1 found that 20% of a small sample of articles linked to the female placeholder were dead person bios.

(summary by Northwesterner1 (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

For the full discussion see Question 6: Do placeholders help discourage editors from uploading non-free (i.e. fair use) images?

Question 7: Is Template:Images needed an acceptible article space alternative to Wikipedia image placeholders?

Summary

GregManninLB suggested using template: Images needed instead of placeholders as currently implemented. The reasoning is that there are other expansion requests acceptable for use in the article namespace in addition to those used in talk namespace. One user (Jaksmata) said it was “better” but not “acceptable”. Three users (DoubleBlue, Kleinzach and Guroadrunner) said that it would be better to improve the existing placeholder rather than replace it with the template. DoubleBlue suggested that the template could be used in cases where an image is needed to illustrate some particular aspect of the article outside the infobox. – jaksmata 14:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the full discussion see Question 7: Is 'Template:Images needed' an acceptible article space alternative to 'Category:Wikipedia image placeholders'?

Question 8. What ideas can be suggested for the modification of the image placeholder?

Summary

This section somewhat overlaps with Question 5 and Proposals 2 and 3.

Some users objected to the separate male and female silhouettes and requested a gender neutral image. Others countered that gender neutral images tend to favour male looking images. User:Nrswanson suggested using an image of a camera rather than a person as a way to avoid this issue and received some support. User:Jaksmata suggested using a blank background.

The text on the image was also discussed. User:Padraic objected to the phrase "click here". Others felt it was necessary, though attempting to replicate a 'clickable link' within the image was also discussed. User:Jaksmata suggested using simply "upload an image". User:DoubleBlue felt that this was not sufficiently specific with regard to the copyright status of the image.

A number of users felt that the current placeholder was too large, arguing that it was overshadowing the article. User:Geni said that any image in an infobox is automatically scaled to 220px in width, and this could not be readily altered. User:Cherry blossom tree suggested a wide but shallow image, which would take up less space. There were also concerns that, whatever the size of the image, the text needed to be readable since most browsers could not scale it. There was general support for the images being 'not bigger than required', though little discussion on what this limit was.

Side note: This section of the discussion became somewhat bogged down over whether the size of the image could be altered. I'll try and explain, if anyone is still unclear. The image is an SVG, so the dimensions of the uploaded image don't matter. The image can be resized when it is inserted into the article without any loss of clarity.

The location of the placeholder was also discussed, with placing it either lower down the page or on the talk page suggested. These steps would somewhat satisfy those who felt the top right corner was too prominent. It was also argued that either of these options would reduce the effectiveness of the placeholder. User:Geni also said that the simplified image upload form requires the uploaded image to replace the placeholder, so the bottom of the page and the talk page would not work.

(Summary by User:Cherry blossom tree)

For the full discussion see Question 8. What ideas can be suggested for the modification of the image placeholder?

An overview of the history, context, and technical aspects of image placeholders and the related upload system (subpage)

See An overview of the history, context, and technical aspects of image placeholders and the related upload system which now has its own subpage.

Proposals

I am adding this section to allow editors who have formulated an opinion about the issues above to comment on concrete solutions. The discussion in the sections above should continue, of course; but I want to make sure we have a space to capture the "vote" of editors who have read through the question statement and the discussion and have an opinion about a concrete course of action. Keep your opinions in this section succinct. If Proposal 1 passes, Proposals 2 and 3 are void. If all proposals fail, then the placeholders images will be retained as is. If you believe the placeholders should be retained as is, just note "disagree" under each proposal.Northwesterner1 (talk) 02:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal 1: Placeholder images should not be used at all on the main page of articles

If this proposal passes, we edit style guidelines to explicitly disapprove the use of these images on article pages. We also remove the placeholder images from articles where they are currently in place and/or move them to talk pages.

Result: Passed

Agree	Disagree	Neutral
35 (66%)	17 (32%)	1 (2%)

Summary

The following agreed with the proposal that Placeholder images should not be used at all on the main page of articles: Northwesterner1, MarnetteD, Cygnis insignis, Nrswanson, S.dedalus, Myke Cuthbert, Kleinzach, Padraic, Rettetast, Wanderer57, Lexicon, Lini, AStanhope, Espresso Addict, Voceditenore, Sandstein , Kaldari, Ssilvers, NVO, GuillaumeTell, Aboutmovies, Mitico, Peter cohen, PamD, Fishal, hahnch, Pete, penubag, Сасусlе, Johnbod, Jaksmata, Shanes, Billscottbob, Bobak, SilkTork (35).

Those who agreed with the proposal referred back to the initial discussion (6 editors), regarded the placeholders as intrusive, ugly, amateurish, in the wrong place, cluttering, distracting and disruptive (12), thought the placeholders overemphasized the importance of including pictures in articles (3), thought the solicitation should be on the talk page (4), self-referencing (2), thought them ineffective (3) and objected to their semi-automated, systematic dispersal (2).

The following disagreed with the proposal: DoubleBlue, Jobjörn, Garion96, Phil Sandifer, Mangostar, Lincolnite, LtPowers, Howcheng, Omegatron, BrownHairedGirl, CComMack, Johnleemk, Terraxos, Bkonrad, Sherool, Sceptre, Jauerback (17).

Those who disagreed with the proposal made the following points: the placeholders were useful and effective (10 editors), had not been used long enough to assess (1), useful for deterring non-free images (1), similar to other maintenance tags (1). Their use should be discretionary but not prohibited (1). It was "ludicrous to allow style guidelines to trump an effective way of building the encyclopedia" (1). WP "must promote free content" (1).

One editor abstained: Guroadrunner (1).

In side comments, it was clarified that the discussion applied to the image placeholders ad variants listed in the archive (section). Further discussions were largely procedural.

(summary by Kleinzach)

See Proposal 1 for the full response to this proposal.

Proposal 2: If placeholder images are retained, they should be modified in appearance

If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 2 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about the nature of any modifications.

Straw poll results

Agree	Disagree	Neutral
22 (81%)	1 (4%)	4 (15%)

Summary

There is clear consensus that if placeholder images are retained, they should be modified in appearance. Discussion on those changes has begun under Question 8. The reasons given for wanting the placeholder images modified are:

They are "ugly" and inherently distract from the article.
The issue of how/if gender should be depicted in a silhouette is controversial.
The "Click here" message is unprofessional.
The definition of "Free image" is not well-known to casual Wikipedia readers.
They take up too much space.
They self-reference Wikipedia.
They imply that Wikipedia is incomplete.
The text is the wrong size/color.
A graphic is not needed.
The images are in the wrong place (i.e., they should be at the bottom of the page).

(Note: most editors who support changing do not support support all of these reasons.) – jaksmata 15:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Proposal 2 for the full response to this proposal.

Proposal 3: If placeholder images are retained, the method by which they are applied should be modified

If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 3 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about how the methods should change.

Straw poll results

Agree	Disagree	Neutral
16 (57%)	12 (43%)	0 (0%)

Summary

This discussion was divided with a small majority of those taking part arguing in favour of the proposition. This is a somewhat simplistic description, however, as there was significant common ground between between some of the supporters and some of the opposers and also significant differences between some of the people nominally in the same category.

One issue raised repeatedly was that of the use of semi-automated tools such as Auto Wiki Browser to add the placeholders. Some people objected in principle to automation. User:Peteforsyth felt that automated placement implied that the placeholders could not be removed. Everyone who addressed the issue, whether supporting or opposing the proposal, agreed that fully automatic use should not be attempted because placeholders are not suitable for every article. Some users pointed to errors that had been made in the past.

The second major issue discussed was whether or not placeholders should be optional. Again, there was widespread consensus with no-one arguing that they should not be. Many editors advised users who did not think that placeholders were appropriate for a particular article or set of articles simply to remove them and User:Geni maintained that the use of placeholders had always been optional. On the other hand, some users pointed to occasions when a removed placeholder had been re-added. User:Bkonrad (older ≠ wiser) suggested replacing the placeholder with something to indicate that it should not be added again. One unresolved issue was whether to leave the adding of the placeholder to an article's regular editors (per User:Northwesterner1) or whether to allow it to be added by other editors where there had been no opt-out (per current practice.)

User:Northwesterner1 also argued that placeholders should be removed if unsuccessful after a period of time. This was supported by two users but User:Mangostar argued that chance of someone with an image seeing the placeholder remains and User:Jobjörn argued that it should remain until the issue is addressed.

(Summary by User:Cherry blossom tree)

See Proposal 3 for the full response to this proposal.

Proposal 4: If placeholder images are retained, they should be extended to a wider range of articles

If Proposal 1 passes, this proposal is void. If Proposal 1 does not pass, but Proposal 4 does pass, then we will have a subsequent discussion about extending the placeholders to a wider range of articles. Other areas where a free photo could reasonably be created (say weaponry likely to appear in museums) should also have placeholder systems built for them. (proposal added by Genisock2, modified by Northwesterner1 (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Straw poll results

Agree	Disagree	Neutral
0 (0%)	9 (100%)	0 (0%)

Summary

This proposal has unanimously failed. – jaksmata 15:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Proposal 4 for the full response to this proposal.

Additional Proposals

Two additional proposals were put forth in the final 48 hours of this discussion:

Proposal 5. If the use of placeholder images in article space is retained, then the Category:Wikipedia image placeholders should be listed along with other approved expansion request messages at template message Expansion requests. The alternative would be to create Wikipedia:Image messages to go along with Wikipedia:Template messages.
Proposal 6.If the use of placeholder images in article space is retained, then code should be added to each placeholder at Category:Wikipedia image placeholders to warn that its use is restricted to be inside an infobox template.

Neither proposal received significant discussion. They were supported only by the proposer, GregManninLB. They received a few comments and questions by editors who seemed inclined to oppose the proposals but did not explicitly provide a !vote.

(summary by Northwesterner1 (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

See Additional Proposals for the full response to this section.