Talk:The Holocaust

Template:WP1.0 Template:FAOL

The continued killing of Jews after the German surrender

I am not at all happy with the current aftermath section of the article, nor of the After_the_Holocaust article, both should be greatly expanded, or a new article should be created, for example "Flight and Expulsion of Jews from Poland after World War II".

Some source material:

• The Killing After the Killing After the Holocaust ended in 1945, Poland's surviving Jews still faced hatred from their fellow citizens.
• 'Fear': preliminary investigation launched into book by Jan Gross
• Chasing Away the Memory of Guilt: The End of Jewish Life in Poland
• THE JEDWABNE AFFAIR
• Poland's willing executioners

I would also urge editors to look at History of Jews in Poland, and in particular keep an eye on the article on Jan T. Gross, which seems to have received many edits lately.--Stor stark7 ^Talk 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me Stor stark7 that you are trying to push your POV on Wiki. If you have anything interesting to add please do so. Providing 5 links of the same author and his controversial work (Jan T. Gross) does not do much to support your theories.--Jacurek (talk) 04:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC) no no no no why is hitler do this what his deal man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.52.106 (talk) 23:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Layout and victims

I'm sure plenty of bigshot editors will disagree, but the layout of this article is terrible, esspecialy the section on victims. There needs to a more clear layout of the victims section. There is a table in the Jewish section, with victims per year, but no total, then a table in poles and slavs with a random collection of groups and total numbers, with no total offered, or any high/low limits. There ought to be a table at the top of the Victims section, with numbers for each group, and a total, with high/low estimates for groups where the total is unknown like the one at the bottom of poles and slavs section. 88.107.193.193 (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

A bit on collective guilt should be added

Efforts to instill a sense of "collective guilt"

"In 1945 there was an Allied consensus—which no longer exists—on the doctrine of collective guilt, that all Germans shared the blame not only for the war but for Nazi atrocities as well."[1]

The British and The Americans considered the Germans to be guilty, using the terms "collective guilt", and "collective responsibility"[2]

The British instructed their officers in control of German media to instill a sense of collective guilt in the population[3]

In the early months of the occupation the Psychological Warfare Division of SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force) undertook a psychological propaganda campaign for the purpose of developing a German sense of collective responsibility.[4] Using the German press (which were all under Allied control) and posters and pamphlets a program acquainting ordinary Germans with what had take place in the concentration camps was conducted.

"During the summer of 1945 pictures of Bergen-Belsen were hung as posters all over Germany with 'You Are Guilty' on them."[5]

Later the U.S. army came to draw a distinction between those legally guilty and the rest of the population which was then merely considered morally guilty.[6]

A number of films showing the concentration camps were made and screened to the German public. For example "Die Todesmuhlen", released in the U.S. zone in January 1946, "Welt im Film" No. 5 (June, 1945). A film that was never finished due partly to delays and the existence of the other films was "Memory of the Camps". "...the object [of the film] was to shake and humiliate the Germans and prove to them beyond any possible challenge that these German crimes against humanity were committed and that the German people -- and not just the Nazis and SS -- bore responsibility."[7]

Immediately upon the liberation of the concentration-camps many German civilians were forced to see the conditions in the camps, bury rotting corpses and exhume mass-graves.[8] On threat of death or withdrawal of food civilians were forced to provide their belongings to former concentration camp inmates[9]

--Stor stark7 ^Talk 00:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Dates

It may be helpful to add the dates (years) during which the Holocaust happened (e.g. 1939-1945).Bless sins (talk) 19:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The lead currently says "during WWII", which is the generally accepted time window. Many scholars consider Kristallnacht, in November 1938, to be the beginning, and the article notes that also. Crum375 (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

'"What the Armenians went through is a tragedy, but not genocide"'... Perhaps you, and Shimon Peres, for that matter, should aquaint yourselves with the current International Criminal Court definition of "genocide". This standard began at Nuremburg and is not specific to any one people. It should be "never again" - for everyone!

Nemo Senki66.213.22.193 (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't use politicians as academic sources for this article, but in any case this is off-topic. Perhaps you want to discuss it here. Crum375 (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That would be the wrong place to discuss it - it should be discussed at Denial of the Armenian Genocide. Meowy 00:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

However, Nemo Senki has not explained what he wants from making a subsection titled Armenian Genocide on this talk page. It seems to be off topic, and this sub-section should probably be erased for that reason. Meowy 00:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The first line in the above/second comment is a cut & paste from this discussion page (the answer to my first comment)...perhaps you should read the whole article and discussion before you comment here...with all due respect...as I say above, this article (should) cross-reference to 'genocide', the term that is being mooted by my comments...I made no change or revision to the article, I only made the above comments in the interest of solidarity... Nemo Senki 66.213.22.193 (talk) 21:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, the Armenian Genocide is not The Holocaust, although they may have commonalities. If you have issues with the AG, they should be discussed on its talk page, not here. Crum375 (talk) 22:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

We understand now. "The Holocaust-tm", is a trademark with a capital "H". Thanks for making that clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

"The Holocaust" refers to events in WW2, just as "The Terror" refers to events in the French Revolution and The Enlightenment refers to cultural ideals formulated in the 18th century. That's quite separate from the legitimate use of 'holocaust', 'enlightenment' and 'terror' as words to refer to other events. No one claims that the use of "The Terror" somehow detracts from the events of 9/11; or that the concept of The Englightement must include other cultural ideals that might be called enlightened. Paul B (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Beginning of the Holocaust

I have written an article on Holocaust in Lithuania. I was surprised we were missing such an important topic, but actually we have almost no articles on 'Holocaust by country', this should be rectified. Anyway, I would appreciate any comments and edits to that article - as the place where Holocaust started, Lithuania certainly forms an important chapter in the Holocaust history.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Nazis Killing Jews through Starvation

Is there any info on why Nazis didn't simply kill all the Jews through starvation? Why bother with all the gas chamber stuff? I would imagine that dragging millions of bodies from gas chambers is pretty hard work. And Nazis had to feed the Jews to keep them alive long enough. (How long does it take for people to die if they don't get water, or anything else to drink or eat? A week?) Why didn't the already starving Germany just let the Jews starve to death in a couple of weeks? Javas7 (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• Starvation takes too long. Not sure why they didn't just deny the prisoners water; perhaps that was too nasty even for the Nazis. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they were scared of rebellion, certainly a group of thirsty people are dangerous because they are so desperate whereas the reality is a lot of the Jews were tricked into going into the Gas chambers. And lets face it, cowards are scared people and these particular nazis were cowards of the worst kind, so I imagine the explanation is something along those lines. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• Impractical, not any more or less nasty. Imagine the physical facilities, the numbers per (what time period? and with some uncertainty?)... Jd2718 (talk) 16:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, the evidence indicates that the gassing was a well thought out plan by intelligent individuals, and presumably they looked at all the possibilities (bullets being too expensive and too direct for the people following the orders and doing the killing etc). Thanks, SqueakBox 16:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Why did Nazis shave the Jews' heads and spray Zyklon B on them to kill lice? And why did they tattoo the Jews if they wanted to kill them?

They kept many Jews alive for a period of time to use as a slave labor force. That is why they were cleaned, shaved, and tattood. Borg Sphere (talk) 16:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The word SHOAH

Per the article, 'Definition' section: >> "Shoah," ... appeared for the first time in 1940 in Jerusalem in a booklet called Sho'at Yehudei Polin (The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland).<<

Per Jon Petrie's http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/ footnote 71 >>The Epstein and Rivlin Hebrew-English Dictionary of 1924 translates shoah as devastation and destruction<< and Petrie also gives two 1933 uses of shoah in the Hebrew press >>[Hitler's] regime will not lead to a shoah" & "In the hour of the shoah of German Jewry".<< (Petrie cites Yad Vashem Studies 27 (1999) pp. 373, 374 for the above newspaper uses.)

So it appears that "Shoah" did not "appear for the first time in 1940" (a date that predates the actual mass killing of Jews) but was used in the sense of "destruction" before the Nazis seized power and was used in the same sense referencing German Jewry within months of the Nazi seizure of power.

The Holocaust Museum cites Jon Petrie http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=01

Yad Vashem acknoledges the work of Jon Petrie on the word 'holocaust' http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/search/index_search.html

The Wixipedia "Names of the Holocaust" article cites Jon Petrie

How come the reference to Jon Petrie's article on the word holocaust (and shoah) has disappeared from the Wikipedia article "The Holocaust" ? Kits2 (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• When was it last there? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It certainly used to be there. How long ago, I can't say. The problem, however, is that 'shoah', like 'holocaust' is just an ordinary word, until it gets specifically used as a proper noun. If someone writes in Hebrew back in 1933 that the election of Hitler is disastrous for the Jews, they will use the word 'shoah' (the standard translation of which is 'disaster'). That is not a prediction of mass murder, nor is it a use of the word in the same sense as a specific label for mass murder. Even the 1940 usage is problematic in that regard. It's very difficult to define when the word is first used specifically to refer to the events we now call The Holocaust. Paul B (talk) 08:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

>>> RE the above: >It's very difficult to define when the word [Shoah] is first used specifically to refer to the events we now call The Holocaust.< Agreed, but certainly the use quoted from 1940 was NOT referring to the events we now call the Holocaust so what's the 1940 quote doing there ? To me it suggests that the FIRST use of shoah outside of the Bible was in 1940. The quote is preceded by the words: >> "Shoah," ... appeared for the first time in 1940 ..." and no earlier uses are given.

The Holocaust article does not make clear that shoah was an ordinary word in secular Hebrew pre 1940 ... rather the contrary. It introduces the word in this fashion >>The biblical word Shoa ...<< (Etymology section)

In what sense is shoah biblical ? Sure its first know use was in the Hebrew Bible but probably half the Hebrew words in the secular Hebrew of 1940 had their first know use in the Hebrew Bible. And for Hebrew speaker of 1940 it wasn't a biblical word in the sense of being more closely associated with the Bible than say the Hebrew "ha" meaning "the" which is also to be found in the Hebrew Bible.

Claiming the word is biblical while not making clear that shoah in 1940 was an ordinary secular word gives a false impression --- that there is something special about the word itself and that the word in the Hebrew of 1940/2008 had/has a vaguely religious aura. 154.20.57.116 (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Abaolutely. I can't disagree with anything you say. Paul B (talk) 23:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Our article says that the word was first used in 1940 to describe the events that became known as "the Holocaust" in the 1950s. I'm not sure I see what the problem with that is. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 15:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It currently says "The biblical word Shoa (שואה) (also spelled Shoah and Sho'ah), meaning "calamity," became the standard Hebrew term for the Holocaust as early as the 1940s." The value of the adjective 'Biblical' is being disputed, but the rest seems OK, since the phrase 1940s is sufficiently unspecific that no distinct originating text is necessarily mplied. Paul B (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

There are also a number of misleading statements in the 'definition' section. Why, for example, is the title of Sho'at Yehudei Polin translated as 'The Holocaust of the Jews of Poland' rather than the 'Catastrophy of the Jews in Poland'? And it is not entirely accurate to say that Shoah was 'routinely' translated as Holocaust in the 1950s. Paul B (talk) 15:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It's translated that way because that is now the translation of Shoah and that's how the source (Yad Vashem) translates it. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 15:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

>>>>

Re above:

>>Our article says that the word was first used in 1940 to describe the events that became known as "the Holocaust" in the 1950s. I'm not sure I see what the problem with that is.<<

The central activity of the set of events we now know as "the Holocaust" was the mass killing of Jews in death camps by gas. (Per the Petrie article referenced in the first comment above: "Random House Webster's College Dictionary (1997) gives a narrow, but not uncommon meaning: "the Holocaust, the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II.") This mass killing in camps did not begin until the end of 1941/ early 1942. So any use the word "shoah" in 1940 could not be referencing the central activity of the events we now know as "the Holocaust" unless the author was referring to future events and had an extraordinary imagination. The Hebrew booklet of 1940 with the title containing "shoah" made no claims of prophecy but described the scene in Poland of 1939 and early 1940. If one accepts a first use without pre-knowledge of gas chambers, the false prophecy of the 3 February 1933 Do'ar Ha-yom "[Hitler's] regime will not lead to a shoah" is a considerably more convincing first use of "shoah" in our sense of "the Holocaust" than the 1940 one given in Wikipedia. And the 1933 quote has the additional advantage of suggesting to readers that the word "shoah" was in common circulation in the Hebrew of the pre-Holocaust years. 24.16.249.99 (talk) 05:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Consecution of the Holocaust death-toll in this article

I think it's racially and logically unfair to state the number of Jewish-only deaths foremost in this article and then to state the total number of deaths and "other groups" deaths (Which alone surmount aggregate Jewish casualties). Even though they were the most afflicted race; terminologically, "the Holocaust" does not and never did pertained exclusively to the Jewish people.

The hypothetical figures for Holocaust casualties SHOULD be delivered in the following consecution:

1. Total Casualties (12~17 million) 2. Jewish Casualties (5.29 ~ 6m) 3. "Other" Casualties: (7 ~ 11.5 million)

or

1. Total Casualties (12~17 million) 2. "Other" Casualties: (7 ~ 11.5 million) 3. Jewish Casualties (5.29 ~ 6m)

--Hepro Dillhat (talk) 18:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The word holocaust

Per the article >Since the 1950s its [holocaust's] use has been increasingly restricted, and it is now mainly used to describe the Nazi Holocaust, spelled with a capital H<

I question "since the 1950's" in the above sentence.

Per Petrie the principal meaning of "holocaust" circa 1963 was nuclear war ...the word did not need the modifier 'atomic' or 'nuclear' to convey that meaning circa 1963. And per Petrie, only after 1978, after the screening of the NBC series "The Holocaust" did the meaning of "holocaust" become closely associated with the Jewish experience of the Hitler years. Only in the 1970's did 'holocaust' become "increasingly restricted" to describing the Nazi Holocaust.

Below from Petrie http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/#Post1965

>>A word search of JSTORE's 1977 journal texts yields sixty-four "H/holocausts." Thirty-one refer to the Jewish catastrophe [less than half]; of the thirty-one, twenty-two are an unmodified - except by context - "Holocaust," five an unmodified - except by context -"holocaust," and the remainder a Nazi, German, or Jewish "H/holocaust." Of the thirty-three non-Nazi holocausts, nine are references to nuclear destruction.

In the spring of 1978 over one hundred million Americans viewed some part of NBC's mini-series titled The Holocaust - the screening was a major cultural event. As an immediate consequence, the capitalized and unmodified "Holocaust" became the recognized referent to Hitler's Judeocide in an American society newly sensitized to that tragedy. In JSTORE journals, January - June 1979, "H/holocaust" is employed thirty-seven times. Twenty-eight of the references are to the Jewish catastrophe, and twenty-seven of the twenty-eight are an unmodified "the Holocaust."<< Kits2 (talk) 06:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Prior to 1980 the term "Holocaust" was not used to describe the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis. I was in Germany in 1978 and missed that TV series, when I returned to the US it was a topic of conversation along with Saturday Night Fever--Woogie10w (talk) 14:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

... theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust." (sic)

Wikipedia current statement: >Shoa is preferred by many Jews for a number of reasons, including the theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust."<

1) Spelling should be consistent ... "Shoah" not "Shoa" is used at the top of the article, eg >"Holocaust" and "Shoah" redirect here<

2) The idea that "holocaust" is "theologically offensive" [that it carries biblical references to burnt offerings to the Jewish God] is largely a result of misleading and plain false statements by Holocaust scholars. Per Petrie, most discussions of the word by Holocaust scholars >ignore totally the word's pagan religious ... employments, and for the most part leave the impression that "holocaust" had absolutely no secular history before it became the principal American-English referent to the Nazi mass murder of Jews.<

Petrie documents this summary statement and then quotes from a frequently reprinted Holocaust Studies article on the word "holocaust" which asserts a) that the word is in the King James Bible (it is not) and b) "the adoption by the King James editors of [holocaust] ... played the decisive role in fixing 'religious sacrifice' as the primary sense of the term in English up until the mid-Twentieth Century." (The primary sense of the term was destruction, often by fire, with no religious undertones or overtones throughout the twentieth century.)

I have not seen anywhere a suggestion that Petrie's presentation of the facts re the word 'holocaust' are incorrect. And while some texts and websites reflect Petrie's work some new texts still contain false or misleading histories and the old texts still circulate. (For an example in a new text see 2007 Naomi Seidman p213. For the statement see http://books.google.ca/books?q=olah+%22the+term+is+translated+as+holocaust%22&btnG=Search+Books )

So instead of Wikipedia's current >Shoa is preferred by many Jews for a number of reasons, including the theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust."< Wikpedia should state: >Shoah is preferred by many Jews partly because within Holocaust Studies false histories of the word 'holocaust' circulate and support questionable claims that the word has theologically offensive connotations.< Reference then should be made to the Petrie article http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/

Below is William Safire on the word in the mid 1960's. Per the New York Times Safire is the most widely read writer on the English language. (Reference http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/SAFIRE-BIO.html )

>>The use of the word 'holocaust' in connection with atomic war has become a cliche. The word comes from a Greek adjective meaning 'burnt whole' and was used originally with reference to sacrificial animals, later with respect to the fiery destruction of large numbers of people ... Kennedy had a special affinity for the word ... 'thermo-nuclear holocaust' ... 'holocaust and humiliation.' With the word firmly established in its atomic-explosive connection it was used in a different context in the 1964 Republican convention ... 'racial holocaust.'

'The New Language of Politics' (1968) p 21 William Safire. Note that Safire (Jewish) makes no mention of 'holocaust' in its Judeocide sense (in the 1960's still rare outside of Jewish circles), sees the word as "firmly established in its atomic-explosive connection", and gives no indication that the word carries any religious meaning or religious overtones. (Safire mentions the original Greek employment of the word only in passing.) Kits2 (talk) 22:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I looked back in the archives:

per Deipnosophista >>[holocaust] the original meaning: the offering to a god of a consecrated victim totally consumed by fire ... half a minute's thought shows that the use of ... [holocaust] for the Armenian massacres carries at some level the implication that they were a good thing (which is no doubt the reason for the correct but rather underplayed mention in this article of Jewish theological objections to the term).<<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust/Archive_15#.22extension_of_the_word.22 

I don't get the above. How is a human sacrifice to a false god/ to a pagan god 'a good thing' ?

What possible Jewish theological objections could there be to the sentence below in which holocaust does have a religious sacrificial meaning ? "For him [Wiesel] ... God is dead ... the God of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob ... has vanished forevermore ... in the smoke of a human holocaust exacted by Race, the most voracious of all idols." (Mauriac in the introduction to Wiesel's night)

The only sacrifice of humans in the Catholic Bible described as a holocaust are sacrifices to Baal. God is horrified. >... they haue forsaken me ... they haue filled this place with the bloud of innocents. And they haue built the excelses [high places] of Baalim, to burne their children with fire for holocaust to Baalim: which I commanded not, nor haue spoken of, neither haue they ascended into my hart. (Rheims Douai Bible, 1582-1610, Ieremie [Jeremiah] 19:4,5 <

And also I noted in the archives:

>>There is an extremely thorough and referenced assessment of the definition of the word Holocaust that takes takes account of hundreds of references in different countries and different eras : http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/ ...

Yes, I know this article very well. It was extensively discussed (see Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 15 sections 15 and 16) along with other sources. But despite the overwhelming evidence it contains, all attempts to refer to it were reverted. I must admit, the experience shocked me.<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust/Archive_16#Holocaust_definitions Kits2 (talk) 01:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

?? >>Some three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war ...

Per the article >>Some three million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war, over two million of them ethnic Poles, with the remaining million mainly ethnic minorities of Ukrainians and Belarusians, the vast majority of them civilians.[45]<<

The figures above are at variance with the web site referenced as a source -- footnote 45 -- http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/poland_WWII_casualties.htm

From bottom of that website:

>>Poland's WWII population losses ... Ethnic Poles: 2.0 (ie NOT over two million) and Other minorities: 0.5 (ie NOT one million)<<

So total of Polish citizens non-Jewish deaths World War II per website is 2.5 million NOT 3 million.

But since the subject of the Wikipedia article is the Holocaust not World War II, Polish civilian death at the hands of the Germans should be the focus of the introductory sentence, not TOTAL Polish 1938 citizen World War II death.

(A broad definition of 'Holocaust' would include civilians and POWs who died as a result of German actions but would not include soldiers who died fighting/as a consequence of the fighting nor victims of the Soviets or Ukrainians.)

Per the same website cited by Wikipedia: of the 2.5 million Polish non-Jewish citizens who died, 450,000 died at Soviet or Ukrainian nationalist hands, and 263,000 were non-Jewish military losses, so the Polish 1938 citizens civilian non-Jewish death toll at the hands of the Germans was circa 1.8 million.

And conveniently the US Holocaust Museum has a circa 1.8 million figure: "Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) were victims of German Occupation policies and the war not including deaths caused by the Soviets." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Poland (Also see http://www.holocaust-trc.org/poles.htm )

ANY statement re Polish civilian death tolls should contain words similar to the above "Documentation remains fragmentary." Knowing what is not known is as essential as knowing what is known for any serious evaluation of historical events.

My guess is there is some double counting of deaths in the Soviet/Polish totals. The website cited at the top of this commentary gives the death toll for Polish "other minorities" as half a million and most of the "other minorities" were in what was Eastern Poland in 1938 and became Soviet citizens before they died. The Soviets did annex Eastern Poland (containing circa 14 million Polish citizens) in 1939 ? 1940. Per Wikipedia >... all residents of the annexed area, dubbed by the Soviets as citizens of former Poland, automatically acquired the Soviet citizenship. However, since actual conferral of citizenship still required the individual consent and the residents were strongly pressured for such consent.< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939-1946)

(Generally ethnic Poles in annexed former Poland moved west after World War II to the formerly German lands and resumed Polish citizenship while the ethnic Ukrainians remained/ were forced to remain/ or were transferred from non-annexed Poland to the USSR. Per one academic article: >> USSR after WWII ... 2.3 million people transferred to Poland, 0.6 million Ukrainian and Belorussian immigrants from Poland<< Footnote 9 in http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3955/is_n4_v46/ai_15654726/pg_7 )

Most readers of the Wikipedia Holocaust article when they see the words 'dead non-Jewish Poles' think of ethnic Poles, Poles who would have been citizens of the Poland of 1947 if they had been alive, not realizing that amongst the Polish citizens of the casualty figures were circa 500,000 non-ethnic Poles who if they had lived thru World War II would have been Soviet citizens in 1946.

So for most readers a statement of a 1.8 million 1938 Polish citizen non-Jewish civilian death toll at the hands of the Germans is less accurate in conveying information than the following statement:

"Ethnic Polish (non-Jewish, non-Ukrainian/Belorussian) civilian death at the hands of the Germans was roughly 1.5 million and the civilian death toll amongst Polish non-Jewish 1938 citizens was circa 1.8 million. Polish borders changed dramatically in the course of World War II and any figures of civilian death tolls are necessarily guesstimates."

(To get the 1.5 million figure above I have subtracted from 1.8 million earlier figure the 500,000 other minorities death toll of the website at the top of the page LESS a guesstimate of the portion of the 500,000 who died in uniform, at the hands of the Soviets etc. My initial guesstimate was 28% -- see below -- I subtracted 28% of the 500,000, got 360,000, subtracted this last number from 1.8 million and then rounded up the resulting 1.44 million to a number that will be read as an approximation rather than staying with a number that looks like a definitive figure.)

(Re the 28% above: of the total of 2.5 million non-Jewish Polish losses per the website 263,000 were non-Jewish military deaths, 350,000 were lost to the Soviets and 100,000 were killed by Ukrainian nationalists -- or circa 28%. Incidentally the website whose figures are cited does not mention Polish killing of ethnic Ukrainians during the war years, perhaps 20,000 were killed. See: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/05/4c935b0f-8009-48dc-93d8-95344832adc7.html ) Kits2 (talk) 21:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The above post is quite correct. To tie out to your sources the article should read "sources remain fragmentary, however scholars in post communist Poland now believe that 1.8-2.1 million non Jewish Polish citizens died at the hands of the Germans in WW2." --Woogie10w (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In 1994 there was an historical conference in Warsaw Poland on the subject of Poland’s losses in WW2. A series of papers from this conference were published in the academic journal Dzieje Najnowsze Rocznik XXI- 1994.
Two articles in Dzieje Najnowsze by well known and respected Polish historians are essential in understanding the problem of Poland’s losses in the war. Czeslaw Luczak Szanse i trudnosci bilansu demograficznego Polski w latach 1939-1945 and Krystyna Kersten, Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej They point out that the 1947 Polish government report claiming losses of 6 million was not correct. Actual losses of Poles and Jews only, not including ethnic Ukrainians and Belarussians, were about 5 million, including 2 million in the territories ceded to the USSR in 1945. The reason for the downward revision of losses is that fact that losses in the territories ceded to the USSR in 1945 were overstated in the official figure of 6 million war dead. The Soviets did not take a post war census until 1959. In the Soviet census of 1959 the number of Poles increased by 800,000 compared to 1939, not including 250,000 Poles who left the USSR in 1955-59. This was not known in 1947, those Poles remaining in the USSR were considered missing and presumed dead by the authors of the 1947 Polish government report. The 1947 official report from communist dominated Poland did not consider losses of Poles in the Soviet deportations of 1939-41. The official report claiming 6 million Polish war dead, did not include ethnic Ukrainian and Belarussian losses, only Poles(3.2million) and Jews (2.8 million).
An English language source by the scholar Tadeusz Piotrowski Professor of Sociology at the University of New Hampshire has provided a reassessment of Poland’s losses in World War Two. Polish war dead include 5,150,000 victims of Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and the Holocaust, 350,000 deaths during the Soviet occupation in 1940-41 and about 100,000 Poles killed in 1943-44 during the massacres of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Losses by ethnic group were 3,100,000 Jews; 2,000,000 ethnic Poles; 500,000 Ukrainians and Belarusians. Note well the revised estimate at the bottom of the page when you go to the website. Project In Posterum [10](click on note Polish Casualties by Tadeusz Piotrowski at the bottom of the page). Those sources that list 3.0 million non Jewish losses in Poland are dated and incorrect. For those who still have doubts, please read these reports by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era .[11] and United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Holocaust EncyclopediaPolish Victims-[12]--Woogie10w (talk) 20:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Note well the estimated losses of Polish Jews remains the same 3 million, the losses of non-Jewish Polish citizens in German hands, including Ukrainians and Belarussians, went down from 3 million to 2 million. The sources are saying 1.8 to 2.1 million non Jewish Polish citizens dying in German hands. No ifs, ands or buts. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I just had a friend who reads Polish review the article by Czeslaw Luczak Szanse i trudnosci bilansu demograficznego Polski w latach 1939-1945. The article is quite clear in saying that the loss of ethnic Poles due to the German occupation was 1.5 million. An additional 500,000 Poles died due to the Soviet occupation and strife with the Ukrainians. Luczak did not consider ethnic Ukrainian or Belarussian losses. --Woogie10w (talk) 00:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I also had a Polish friend read the Luczak article ... per my friend's reading Luczak makes very clear that his evidence is fragmentary and that any final figure is to some degree a guess ...

The new statement in Wikipedia: >Some two million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished, in German hands, during the course of the war, 1.5 million of them ethnic Poles, with the remaining 500,000 mainly ethnic minorities of Ukrainians and Belarusians, the vast majority of them civilians.[45]< It is a good summary statement. But someone wanting more information and background who does not speak Polish will not be well served by the references currently in footnote (45) -- why not reference this discussion ? Kits2 (talk) 05:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, second thoughts re >>Some two million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished, in German hands, during the course of the war, 1.5 million of them ethnic Poles, with the remaining 500,000 mainly ethnic minorities of Ukrainians and Belarusians, the vast majority of them civilians<<

First some significant proportion of the 500,000 Christian non-ethnic Poles lost their lives to the Soviets ... Second, the calculation at the top of this section using the figures in the web source referenced in footnote 45 result in a figure for "Polish 1938 citizens civilian non-Jewish death toll at the hands of the Germans" of circa 1.8 million.

And the US Holocaust Museum has a circa 1.8 million figure: "Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) were victims of German Occupation policies and the war not including deaths caused by the Soviets."

So where does the the two million figure come from ? Kits2 (talk) 07:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I will never post my original research here on Wikipedia. I use only verifiable sources that are reliable and have a high degree of credibility. The sources in English available to most readers of Wikipedia are the USHMM website and the estimates of the scholar Tadeusz Piotrowski, both sources indicate Poland's losses due to the German occupation were about 5 million, less 3 million Jewish Holocaust victims, gives us an estimated 2 million non-Jewish losses in German hands. The key point to grasp is that scholars in post communist Poland have proven the 6 million figure for Poland's war dead, in German hands, to be incorrect. The actual total is about 5 million, including the territory which was ceded to the USSR in 1945. The USHMM and Tadeusz Piotrowski are reporting this revised estimate to the English speaking world--Woogie10w (talk) 10:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Nazi Germany

I have twice added to the Introduction a reference to the fact that Germany was known as Nazi Germany during the time covered by the article. Both time said addition was reverted by Jayjg. The addition was factually correct and so should be included in the article. Additionally, the addition provided a link to the Nazi Germany article and the term "Nazi Germany" is used multiple times in this article. Jayjg believes this addition is an attempt by me to add my personal opinion. That is an absurdity. I don't want to get into an edit war, but I would like to hear what other editors have to say on this issue. --SMP0328. (talk) 01:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Don't get into an edit war; Jayjg is correct. The country's name is and was "Germany"; there's o particular need to say "the country was known as Nazi Germany"; and the likelihood that people will confuse 1933-1945 Germany with some other entity is quite low. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I checked what Time Magazine had to say, by checking for articles Jan 1, 1939 to Jan 1, 1945. Nazi Germany is mentioned in 167 articles, while Germany is mentioned in 3,415 articles. That would give for that time period 167 articles using "Nazi Germany" against 3,248 articles that only use "Germany".--Stor stark7 ^Speak 02:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Minor changes

Naming General Gouvernment Polish might be misleading, since it could suggest it was run by Poles, it was rather a German occupation zone administrated by Germans, full explanation is in article, so its best to leave just as wikilink. In regards to Madagascar Plan-it should be clear that it never enjoyed support and Jews were already murdered on massive scale during discussion about it. Also we should make it clear that we present an official explanation as reality, for we know that Jews were not being "shipped east" but exterminated through executions, famine and gas chambers. --Molobo (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read the sources in the article before making categorical statements. If the issue is caused by difficulty understanding nuances in the English language then please ask for help before making edits. 1. Hitler supported the plan, and support extended to the top levels of the SS, who were conducting the planning. 2. This whole article is about the killing of Jews, no need to repeat that ad-absurdum in every section. Don't distort what is said in the given sources, the explanation given by Hitler to the Foreign office for abandoning the plan is interesting, it has bearing on what high levels of the government were told/not told of Hitlers true intentions alternatively on the use of euphemisms already quite early in the holocaust --Stor stark7 ^Speak 16:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Question

Does anyone know how many people were killed altogether because I'm getting a lot of conflicting opinions and numbers on this. I'd like to know how many different ethnic groups were involved as well as how many people were killed altogether.

sorry for my ignorance Mythralt (talk) 20:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're getting a lot of conflicting opinions, why would you accept a number given by a random person without any context, proof, or explanation? -Superm401 - Talk 08:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

RE estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million...

The footnote (#6) following the above statement gives no indication of where the 9 to 11 million comes from but instead suggests that the 9-11 million figure is way low ... >Donald Niewyk suggests that the broadest definition ... would produce a death toll of 17 million. A figure of 26 million is given in Service d'Information des Crimes de Guerre ...<

At a minimum the article needs to give a reference for the 9 to 11 million figure.

To my mind the 9 million is ridiculously low and giving that 9 million figure prominence in the text without sourcing it suggests a bias and/or a problem with addition --- 5.5 million Jews plus 2.5 million Sovciet Pow's plus 1.8 million Polish citizens is already over 9 million ...

The 11 million figure, which has received a good deal of play, was invented by Wisenthal (see Novick, Holocaust in American life 215,216 or footnote 22 at http://books.google.ca/books?id=TdhwE27xaG4C&pg=PA203&dq=Wisenthal+11+million+Novick&sig=_NnnKkF1kJPVwfXwbpBf1shCVFM ) Kits2 (talk) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

From the BBC website >Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust ... Other holocaust victims included Slavs ... Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses, ... trade unionists ... It is believed that a total of 15 million people died.<< http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/holocaust/hmd_1.shtml

I am going to change the 9 to 11 million sentence and the reference.

If someone wants to change the sentence back to 9-11 million they should explain why and provide some decent references. Kits2 (talk) 06:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

We need to point out that non-Jewish losses were about 6-7% in German occupied Poland and the USSR compared to 90% of the Jews. We cannot compare the genocide of the Jews to the persecution of the Slavs. Jews were rounded up and killed in death camps, Poles manned the railways that brought them to the camps.--Woogie10w (talk) 09:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Another important point is that the statistics of losses in the USSR are based on Soviet era data. The demographic estimates of total losses include deaths due to the war and Soviet repression, as well as Nazi war crimes. In Soviet and contemporary Russian texts the Germans are held responsible for all civilian deaths.--Woogie10w (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The statistical data is very clear; 6 million(66%) of the 9 milion Jews perished in the war compared to 11 million(3%) of the 350 million non-Jews in Nazi occupied Europe. We need to address this disparity in the article.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The fate of Poles in Germany cannot be compared to the Jews who were subject to the Nurnberg laws. 400,000 Polish citizens served in thw Wehrmacht and 108,000 were killed in battle. In Germany the 1.5 million ethnic Poles, who were bi-lingual, were treated as other Germans. Slavs and Jews were unequal victims.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The post I just made Overall, about 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews, in occupied Europe, perished in the war, the non Jewish victims of the Nazis are estimated at between 5 to 11 million ( 1.4% to 3.0%) of the 360 million persons in German dominated Europe should put this issue in a proper perspective.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with "about 5.7 million ... Jews, ... perished in the war" above. The Jews were targeted, victims not of war but of a largely succesful campaign of extermination. A suggested rephrasing of the sentence above: "Overall, about 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews, in occupied Europe, were murdered directly or indirectly by the Nazis and their allies; the non Jewish victims of Nazi persecution are estimated to be between 5 to 11 million ( 1.4% to 3.0%) of the 360 million persons in German dominated Europe." Kits2 (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Soviet POWs

The issue of Soviet POW collaboration is an aspect of the Holocaust that this article may want to consider. Russian sources have published data since the fall of communism on Soviet POW collaboration. 2 million Soviet POW were freeded from German captivity; 284,000 were sentenced by the NKVD for collaboration, 180,000 refused to return to the USSR and remained in the west fearing punishment in the USSR. In addition Russian sources estimate 215,000 Soviet citizens dead in the German Armed forces. These folks were the Ukrainian guards we read about in the histories of the death camps.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Experimentation

I'm not sure this was ever really adressed..how scientifically credible were the human experimentation carried out?.It seems to me ppl and sources tend to cloud the morality of the issue with the completely seperate question of how scientifically credible they were.Are the results really unrealiable just because of the manner in which they were carried out?, despite the trained physicians involved and seemingly professional manner they were conducted?.And to what extent, wether admitedly or not have they played a role in modern medical science... and reliable sources?. Rodrigue (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Ethics Of Using Medical Data From Nazi Experiments by Baruch C. Cohen [13] has a discussion of the moral issues involved. --Woogie10w (talk) 16:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow dude, that has nothing to do with what I just said and you just proved my point about the trivial morality question. Rodrigue (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I hardly think the morality issue is "trivial", but as it happens that article also discusses the the question of the scientific usefulness of the experiments. Did you actually read it "dude"? The ones that provided genuinely useful data were cited in later publications. The ones that didn't obviously raised no moral issues about citation, so the two issues are intertwined. Paul B (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well the source seemed to cloud itself in the issue somewhat, granted parts were relevant.But however much you concieve it relevant, ethics and morality only inhibit the potential for human experimentation.Rodrigue (talk) 21:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• Well, yeah. So? It's part of the cost of being decent human beings. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Nazis experiments met with mixed scientific results. For instance, their experiments on freezing and rewarming subjects has formed the basis for the modern understanding of how to treat hypothermia. Conversely, little to none of the data obtained from their genetic experimentations has been deemed scientifically valid. All in all, the majority of the test carried out by the Nazis were not deemed scientifically credible because of the conditions they were conducted under (lack of sterile equipments, no scientific controls). As for the limitation imposed by morality, technically you are correct. However, seeing the harm forced on their victims by the Nazis resulted in the establishment of the Nuremberg code. While never formally adopted into medical law, it is the basis for most modern medical ethics codes. That means human medical experimentation does in fact occur, but it occurs ethically with informed consent, lack of coercion, regulated trials, and with a reasonable expectation that the experiments will be beneficial.

Finally, ethics and morality are never limitations. If you think so, I feel sorry for you. AniMate 22:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

my own personal conclusion is that crazy people do bad research. Gzuckier (talk) 16:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

RE >(holocaustum) ... a reference to a massacre of Jews by ... Roger of Howden [8]

The reference given at the end of the statement (footnote 8) -- a BBC DVD, is rather difficult to check.

Per Jon Petrie's article referenced in various Shoah and Holocaust word history discussions above it was Richard of Devizes who used the word and NOT Roger of Howden.

The Wikipedia article re Richard of Devizes concurs: "he was the first to use the word holocaust for the mass murder of the Jews of London ..."

The Jon Petrie article gives an English translation and the original Latin and a bit of context.

I am now going to attempt to edit the sentence and give a reference to Jon Petrie. If someone removes the reference to the Petrie article please explain why they are doing so.

The reference will be >See Jon Petrie a sentence after his footnote 15 http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/ <

For the record, from the Jon Petrie article after his footnote 15:

>> "Londonie immolare Iudeos ... potuerit holocaustum." (c. 1200 - The Chronicle of Richard of Devizes (ed. J. T. Appelby, 1963), p. 3 -- See below for translation.)

"On the very day of the coronation [3 September 1189] ... a sacrifice of the Jews to their father the devil was commenced in the city of London ... the holocaust could scarcely be accomplished the ensuring day." (Chronicles of the Crusades (1848), p. 3 -- a translation of the Latin partially quoted above. Per the Jewish Encyclopedia (1964): "September 1189 ... a mob ... after vainly attacking throughout the day the strong stone houses of the Jews, set them on fire at night, killing those that attempted to escape. The king was enraged ...")<<

Kits2 (talk) 03:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not at all difficult to check - no more so than a book. Also wikipedia is not an acceptable point of cross-reference. Cripipper (talk) 15:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

This example all is really very misleading anyway. The word "holocaust" was used generically for any form of severe fire. If people were killed in a fire, they were victims of a "holocaust". The fact that in this case the victims were Jewish has no relevance to the historical meaning of the word, and creates the misleading impression that it was specifically used to refer to attacks on Jews before the events of WW2. It wasn't. Paul B (talk) 15:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The quotations listed in the Jon Petrie article listed above appear to suggest that this is not the case. Either way, surely it demonstrates your point that it was used to mean a great (fatal) fire, and contextualises somewhat the persecution of the Jews of Europe? Cripipper (talk) 15:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

What is not the case? Paul B (talk)

If you mean that the several Petrie quotations using the word holocaust with reference to attacks on Jews imply that the word was linked to Jewish victimhood, that's simply because he has accummulated every single example that he can find that contains the two. As he makes clear earlier in the article, it was a generic word for burnings, and, more loosely for destructiveness. It's possible to find references to "holocausts" of lots of groups. Paul B (talk) 16:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Crippipper changed my change so now the sentence reads >Its Latin form (holocaustum) was first used with specific reference to a massacre of Jews by the chroniclers Roger of Howden[9] and Richard of Devizes[10] < Is Crippipper saying that BOTH chroniclers reported the same event using the Latin for holocaust ... highly unlikely in my view. Footnote 9 references a BBC DVD -- once again a reference to a DVD is not very useful, is much less checkable than a book reference. If I could find the DVD would I have to look thru the whole thing to find the supposed statement re Roger of Howden? Kits2 (talk) 20:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That is precisely what I am saying; both chroniclers were referring to the 'holocaust' of Jews that occurred after the coronation of Richard I. It wouldn't take very long to find in a 55-minute episode of a chronological and historical DVD. If you really insist I could go and dig out an 1853 edition of the annals of Roger of Howden/Hoveden and give you a precise page reference, but you wouldn't be able to check that either I suspect. Cripipper (talk) 11:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If Simon Schama did say on TV that Roger of Howden used the word then Schama should also say the same thing in his A History of Britain -- I'll have a look. Kits2 (talk) 17:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Schama in his BBC publication 'A History of Britain 3000BC-1603AD' has no index entry Roger of Howden -- but on p 153 (near bottom) writes: "... A general massacre ensured, described by the chronicler Richard of Devizes as a holocaustum." It is highly unlikely that the BBC book and DVD differ in assigning the authorship of 'holocaustum'. Kits2 (talk) 18:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

RE: Etymology .../ Definition section

Current reading: >>>Etymology ... Shoa is preferred by many Jews for a number of reasons, including the theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust."

I am going to change the above, adding the word 'supposed' and add a footnote unless I see compelling objections. New proposed reading:

>>Shoa is preferred by many Jews for a number of reasons, including the supposed theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust.<<

And the footnote: >>Jon Petrie demonstrates that much of the scholarship on the history of the word pre 2000 was wrong or misleading and questions on a number of grounds the idea that 'holocaust' in secular use carries any theologically offensive baggage. http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust <<

[For more on the subject and the treatment of the Petrie article in this section of Wikipedia see the section in Talk above titled >> ... theologically offensive nature of the original meaning of "holocaust." (sic)<<]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Current reading of the next sentences:

>Definition The word "holocaust" has been used since the 18th century to refer to the violent deaths of a large number of people.[12] For example, Winston Churchill and other contemporaneous writers used it before World War II to describe the Armenian Genocide of World War I. [13] Since the 1950s its use has been increasingly restricted, and it is now mainly used to describe the Nazi Holocaust, spelled with a capital H... <<

I am proposing to add one sentence after footnote 13 above and also change the words "Since the 1950s" and again reference Petrie.

New suggested reading: "The word "holocaust" has been used since the 18th century to refer to the violent deaths of a large number of people.[12] For example, Winston Churchill and other contemporaneous writers used it before World War II to describe the Armenian Genocide of World War I. [13] In the 1960s the word was commonly used as a reference to nuclear war. Since the late 1970s its use has been increasingly restricted, and it is now mainly used to describe the Nazi Holocaust, spelled with a capital H..." And then a simple footnote referencing Petrie.

[And again perhaps before reacting read the section in Talk above titled >The word holocaust<]

Before making the change I would like a consensus. I did make a change recently and it was immediatley reverted.

There are other problems with the Etymology & Definition sections but I don't have the energy to deal with them now Kits2 (talk) 19:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Estimates of the death toll of non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution ...

What I inserted in the article 28 April has been radically changed and for the worse. Mine:

>>>Estimates of the death toll of non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution vary by many millions, partly because the boundary between death by persecution and death by starvation, brutal repression etc in a context of total war is unclear. The BBC estimates that something like 9 million non-Jews died as a result of Nazi persecution while texts in British schools give a figure of 5 million.[6]<<

The above conveys 1) that estimates of non-Jewish death tolls depend on where you draw the lines and 2) gives a range of estimates with authoritive sources.

The current reading:

>>>Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims, including Jews, at nine to 11 million.[6] The BBC estimates that something like 9 million non-Jews died as a result of Nazi persecution while texts in British schools give a figure of 5 million.[7]<<<

1) The figures of the first sentence don't agree with the figures of the second sentence. (And there are NO sources for the figures of the first sentence). The figures given in the first sentence are way too low (subtract 6 million Jewish victims from the 9 to 11 million figure and one gets 3 to 5 million non-Jewish victims)

2) No explanation is given for why one authoritive figure for non-Jewish victims should be close to 100% larger than an other authoritive figure -- something that an intelligent reader should want an explanation for.

3) I think its a bad idea and confusing to lump Jewish victims of the Holocaust in with non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution in giving death tolls as is done in the first sentence above.

Would someone change the sentences back to something like my version, or explain why my version is bad and today's version good? (I am not attatched to my language but I am attatched to consistency of numbers from one sentence to the next, citing sources, and giving some explanation of why different authorities give radically different numbers.) Kits2 (talk) 02:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Estimates of the death toll of non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution vary by many millions, partly because the boundary between death by persecution and death by starvation, brutal repression etc in a context of total war is unclear. Can you provide a source for this analysis?--Woogie10w (talk) 11:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

There is an excellent discussion of non-Jewish death tolls as a result of Nazi criminal actions at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html It should be cited in the article.

Very interesting, the guy has some good points, but we must use reliable sources on Wikipedia, not blog.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The second or largest group of non-Jewish victims were Soviet civilians (after or before Soviet POWs depending on assumptions).

Per the cited web site >>...3 million non-Jewish civilians in Nazi-occupied [Soviet] territory ... died [per a guesstimate cited] as collateral casualties of the fighting, were massacred in anti-partisan operations or died due to the deterioration in living conditions. If equal probability is assigned to each of these 3 possibilities (collateral casualties, victims of anti-partisan operations, deaths from deterioration in living conditions), we get one million collateral civilian deaths (not included in this tabulation), one million victims of anti-partisan operations and one million deaths from deterioration in living conditions. Deaths in the latter two categories can be mostly attributed to the policies and actions of the Nazi occupiers and their allies, including the implementation of the murderous “Hunger Plan” addressed in this article. However, I shall conservatively assume that only half of the ca. 3 million non-Jewish Soviet civilian deaths in Nazi-occupied territory were directly attributable to the implementation of the Nazis’ criminal occupation and exploitation policies, the balance being collateral victims of the fighting at the front, starvation deaths due to the Soviet scorched-earth policy during the retreats in 1941/42 ... and civilians killed by irregular forces fighting the occupier.<<

Obviously if a researcher/writer is less conservative or more conservative in her assumptions about proportions of deaths due to Nazi criminal policies the numbers of victims change dramatically, hence my statement: "Estimates of the death toll of non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution vary by many millions, partly because the boundary between death by persecution and death by starvation, brutal repression etc in a context of total war is unclear." 154.20.0.96 (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

There are some important points that need to be considered when analyzing human losses in Poland and the USSR during WW2.

1- Poland and the USSR both include the eastern portion of pre-war Poland in their casualty statistics. The Polish historian Krystyna Kersten estimates these losses at 2 million. In order to avoid a duplication these losses should be included with the USSR or Poland, but not in both nations.
2- The Russian Academy of Science in 1993 estimated total Soviet losses at 26.6 million, including an increase in infant mortality of 1.3 million. This is the estimated demographic loss for the entire USSR in the borders of 1946-91, of the population in mid 1941 net of population transfers
3- In 1995 the Russian Academy of Science held a conference on war losses. These were their estimates of civilian losses due to the war.
A. Civilians executed by Nazis- 7.4 million. These estimates are based on Soviet era sources.This figure presumably includes an unknown persons killed for collaboration with Germany.
B. Civilian dead in Germany due to forced labor or in camps -1.8 million. Note well the Russians count only an additional 1.3 million military POW deaths. This figure presumably includes the 215,000 deaths of Soviet citizens in German military service
C. Civilian deaths due to famine in the occupied regions 4.1 million.
D. Civilian deaths due to famine in the interior(unoccupied)regions 2.5- 3.0 million
E. Deaths in the GULAG were officially given at about 700,000.
F. Total civilian deaths 16.5 to 17.0 million.

4- Military war dead are as follows according to the official Russian 1992 report which has been translated in English
A. Deaths in battle and died of wounds. 6.335 million.
B. Deaths due to non-battle causes 555,000
C. Estimated combat deaths not reported 500,000.
D. Military POW dead in Germany due to forced labor or in camps -1.283 million. Note well the Russians count an additional 1.8 million civilian deaths in Germany.
E. Total military deaths 8.7 million.
F. These figures do not include partisan or militia war dead.
--Woogie10w (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That figure of an estimated 9 million non Jewish Holocaust deaths includes, 6 million in the USSR(including 3 million POW); 2 million in Poland and 1 million in the rest of Europe. I wonder what source the BBC used when they posted the statistic 15 million Holocaust dead. I backed into the USSR figure by subtracting Poland and an estimate for the rest of Europe.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Re yours above: If you are saying that one reason for very different death tolls for non-Jews as a result of Nazi criminal actions is a hugely different estimated total death tolls for various countries by different authorities, I agree with you. And even if we have a generally agreed death toll for the Soviet Union there is a huge degree of uncertainty about how many of the circa 25 million died in German occupied territory, how many died as a result of Stalinist repression etc. (I am real suspicious of any Soviet figure given to within a million -- a key article expresses some doubt as to whether Soviet 'losses' are not dead PLUS emigration after the war -- a few million recent Soviet citizens (Latvians, Poles etc.) fled West after the war.

I would be happy if you wrote some summary of above together with my remark that you removed and placed both the summary and my remark back in the article.

To justify further my remark: "Estimates of the death toll of non-Jewish victims of Nazi persecution vary by many millions, partly because the boundary between death by persecution and death by starvation, brutal repression etc in a context of total war is unclear."

Berembaum wrote: >>... Wiesenthal, in contrast, argued that the Holocaust was the death of 11 million people, 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews. The figure was invented: If we consider all civilian non-Jewish deaths, then it is too small; if we consider only those who died at the hands of the Nazi killing apparatus, then it is too large.<< http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims.html Kits2 (talk) 18:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

And re your I think dubious Russian figure "Military POW dead in Germany due to forced labor or in camps -1.283 million" Apparently this does not include deaths among circa half a million conscripts who were called up but captured before reaching their units see p. 675 http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/ELM-War_Deaths.pdf -- this key article should perhaps be cited Kits2 (talk) 19:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Do the math, 6.9 million confirmed dead, 500,000 estimated MIA(by Krivosheev) and 1.3 million POW deaths. That adds down to the official Russian figure of 8.7 million. Krivosheev added the additional 500,000 conscripts to the official total of 8.7 million, it is NOT in the 8.7 million figure. So you see the figure of 3 million POW deaths does not tie out to official Russian sources. Add the 3 million POW dead to the 6.9 million confirmed dead, 500,000 estimated MIA and you come to a figure of 10.4 million. Independent researchers in Russia today do not accept the official figure of 8.7 million as being correct.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Check Table 3 in that article, you see the total losses were 8.7 million, including 1.8 million missing and POW. The official Russian figure does not tie out to the western estimates of 3 million POW dead, case closed. The balance of 1.8 million civilians in the official figures are considered military losses in the west. Why the confusion? These men were conscripted but not officialy in the ranks, so they were not counted as military losses. In the chaos of 1941 there was no way to properly count losses. In any case get the Krivosheev book and we can continue the discussion. The math gets real fuzzy when you look at the total number conscripted less the number in the ranks in 1945. 34.5 million conscripted less 12.9 million in the ranks in 1945 less 9.7 discharged for various reasons less 2.0 million liberated POW leaves 9.9 million dead & missing, not counting partisans, the NKVD and militia.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I have lost the point here. Relevent in this "Talk" section is the Holocaust article in Wikipdeia and specifically the section that today reads: >>Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million.[7]<< I believe 1) these figures need a source and 2)somewhere the statement should be made that 11 million figure was made up but is often accepted as authoritive 3) we need some explanation of the difficulties of arriving at a figure and 4) there is NO credible source for the 9 million figure that is given by Wikipedia and further the implied circa 3 million non-Jewish victims is an insult to non-Jewish suffering. [Minimzing the Jewish Holocaust with false statements is a crime in some countries but minimizing non-Jewish death tolls seems to be curiously acceptable.] (We seem to agree re the Soviet figures using your words a) sometimes the "math gets real fuzzy" and b) "The official Russian figure [of POW dead] does not tie out to the western estimates of 3 million" [the Wiki Holocaust article quotes Berenbaum "between two and three million ... POWs"]) Kits2 (talk) 17:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The historians who include non-Jewish losses in Poland of 2 million with the Holocaust and ignore non Jewish Soviet civilian losses of 9 million are not being consistant. In the case of Poland and the USSR the Germans had a view that Slavs were an inferior people, they were enslaved ,subject to brutal reprisals and suffered food shortages. For all practical purposes the policy was the same in both nations. In Poland 6% perished compared to 13% in the occupied USSR. By including Poland's non-Jewish losses with the Holocaust, the door was opened and an 800 pound gorilla walked in and sat down.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit ironic that the arguments against including Soviet civilian deaths with the Holocaust are similar to those of the Holocaust deniers who allege the victims died as a result of the war or the Soviets killed them and then blamed the Germans. --Woogie10w (talk) 00:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not funny

we should also say this is one of the most cruel ways of racism it no one should be treated like this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.241.247.30 (talk) 16:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I totaly agree with you!-207.241.247.30 (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Though I agree with you in principle (as, I'm sure, most people here do) this is not suitable for an encyclopedia. This article is simply meant to present historical facts.Sstr (talk) 16:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)