Talk:Rainer Maria Rilke

Where's Heidegger?

Added reference under 'Influences' but this is a somewhat superficial characterisation as the link to Heidegger is more essential, i.e. they are "ideologically concurrent". Perhaps this should be a new section or merged into the main article, but the point on Heidegger in 'Influences' is somewhat conspicuous. Suggestions?Tsop 05:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

It is altogether possible that Heidegger had absolutely no influence on Rilke. If it is asserted that there was an influence, it should be proven beyond doubt by the use of quotations and citations.Lestrade 12:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Heidegger showed Rilke that a writer could use senseless and incomprehensible words and be considered a major intellect. Rilke saw that Heidegger became an international success by simply being unintelligible and obscure. These traits, as all professors know, are considered as signs of deep thinking.Lestrade (talk) 12:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

This article lacks of an introductory text like the one it had in its first versions, i.e. :

"Rilke is generally considered the German language's greatest poet of the 20th century. Though he never found a consistent verse form, his haunting images tend to focus on the problems of Christianity in an age of disbelief, solitude, and profound anxiety. He is generally placed in the camp of Modernist poets, though his religious dilemmas may set him apart from some of his peers.

He wrote in both verse and in a highly lyrical prose. His two most famous verse pieces are the Sonnets to Orpheus and the Duino Elegies; his two most famous prose pieces are the Letters to a Young Poet and the semi-autobiographical Notebooks of Malte Laurids Brigge."

It's good to have a lead, but there are some problems with this one. I seriously don't think Rilke "focus on the problems of Christianity", neither was he a Modernist poet. In fact, his poetry is deliberately traditional - it may modern in its preoccupations, but not certainly of the Modernists in terms of technique. Mandel 03:09, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Rilke did focus on the problems of Christianity, and recurrently so - most impressively perhaps in the "Brief eines jungen Arbeiters". Dexter 04:57, July 9, 2005 (GMT)

It's not clear enough what problems of Christianity he focus on. Rilke can be said somewhat like a "pagan" poet, so it's misleading to say that he focus on Christianity (eg. the "angels" in Duino Elegies are not Christian angels; he repeated invoked Buddhism, classical Greek figures before the era of Christ etc.) Did he attack the institution of Christianity? Was it because he found Christianity wanting in this age of anxiety? Or was it really because he was interested in the question of religion at large?

Rilke's mature thought, it should be hard to miss, is wholly, and even virulently, anti-Christian. No doubt his symbolist and transcendental concerns were influenced by the religion he was raised with, but his reaction against that religion was complete. His angry rejection of the role of Christ in relations with the Divine (see the "Young Workingman's Letter") looks suspiciously like a desire to arrogate that role to himself; but, whatever you may think of it, his self-consciously UN-Christian stance is quite unmistakable, and a major element in his vision. Fixlein (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Modernism is also a very precise term. Rilke is certainly not of the same school with Eliot and Pound, though he is definitely modern. Modern, not modernist. Mandel 09:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Added a new influence, the band Rainer Maria. Pretty obvious one. I slipped it in under the other musical inspirations. I can't link a source to the merchandise I'm talking about, as the record label website is down, but I own one of the t-shirts with Rilke's face on it, so I know they exist. Frailgesture 07:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone who knows more than I do about poetry should figure out what to say about modernism. I do know enough to remove the implication that being Christian disqualifies you from being a modernist. Also, the idea that a "consistent verse form" is a requirement for being a successful poet seemed like an assertion of opinion. Nareek 23:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Czech, Austrian...?

Rilke was born and raised in what's now the Czech Republic, but it obviously wasn't the Czech Republic then.

However, looking at his bio here, it doesn't appear that he ever lived in a country called "Austria" either--by the time there was such an entity, he was living in Germany and then in Switzerland. Given that Austrian is not really an ethnicity, it seems odd to call him an Austrian if he never lived in Austria.

If we're identifying him by nationality, Austro-Hungarian is probably right--though I'm not sure that's a category. By ethnicity, "German" is probably correct. Nareek 20:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he was ethnically German. I'm not sure on the ethnicities of his parents, but I would guess they were largely Czech / Austrian. Strictly speaking, yes, Austrian is an ethnicity, but it does not include all regions of the Austrian Empire -- it only includes what is considered to be historical Austria. And saying that his nationality was Austro-Hungarian is a bit of a problem because, by the time of his death, that nation didn't even exist anymore. WWI-era Czechs would have claimed that he was Czech, whether or not he was ethnically Czech, because he was from Bohemia. I don't know offhand what his citizenship status was post WWI. And as far as I know, Rilke never wrote or said anything significant on his own national identity. Honestly, I would just leave it out -- it's really academic. - Che Nuevara 00:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Selection of works section

I find the Works section is unhelpful for the following reasons:

• lack of titles in English
• most volumes of Rilke's poetry have been translated by multiple translators, so why is listing one or two translators helpful unless they are all listed?

I think translators/translations would fit in better if placed within the article for each specific work. Does anyone have any objections or any other ideas for making this section clearer and more helpful? -- hibou 13:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that William H. Gass's book, Reading Rilke, should be added to the list. He translates many of the poems himself, and his absence on this page is mystifying to say the least. Include in that, too, selections from his most recent work of criticism, A Temple of Texts. If i knew how, I'd do it myself.

68.161.238.60 16:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"generally considered the German language's greatest 20th century poet."

He's not, maybe one of the greatest but not the greatest.

Yup. In any case, this is a huge instance of weasel wording, especially since it's in the first frickin' sentence. Clearly not everyone agrees Rilke is Germany's greatest 20th century poet, so it's very important to know just who. And likely that "who" is whoever wrote that. If you've got any sort of evidence to back up the claim (e.g. "75% of German lit professors say he's..."), you can put that in instead. But as it is now, it's gotta go. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.58.237.227 (talk) 01:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Pronunciation of name

It would be great if someone could add the pronunciation of his name, for the ignorants of the world (like me!). Thanks. --TotoBaggins 15:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Image

What a horrible picture! But it's comforting to see the usual Wiki Talk entries regarding where he was born and how to pronounce his name. The Wikipedia Gay Lobby must be disappointed that the two people named Lou that are mentioned in the article are female.[User:Lestrade|Lestrade]] 11:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Rilke's Religion

From the current form of the article, Rilke's religion is never mentioned, but his mother is mentioned as being Jewish. So it seems as though, from the article, Rilke was Jewish, but he was raised Roman Catholic (Josef Maria should be a dead giveaway). Do we have a reputable source (I just remember his religion being mentioned in a lecture) that can show that he was raised Roman Catholic? I'm going to add it, but also add "citation needed" so that it's clear that a source needs to be found, to clear up the confusion.

Lifthrasir1 06:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

"... it seems as though ... Rilke was Jewish ..."

That sort of depends on who you ask, doesn't it? According to Jewish law and tradition, that makes him Jewish, sure, but according to Catholic doctrine, if he was baptized Catholic, he's Catholic. I don't think it's a good idea to label someone Jewish just because he's of Jewish descent. I realize this probably wasn't your intention, but be careful not to confuse Jews with Jews.

Cheers - Che Nuevara 18:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Rilke's mother may have been of Jewish background, but she was a devout Catholic herself. The suggestion (if that's what it is) that there is something surprising in Rilke's Catholic upbringing is quite wide of the mark. Any recent biography would be an acceptable citation for this. Fixlein (talk) 17:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Fame and poetry

Rilke is regarded as one of the most famous poets in history. His poems are widely regarded as being of a superior quality. This is puzzling because he is almost totally unintelligible. It is not, however, generally permitted to make this statement.Lestrade (talk) 00:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Rilke's Christian beliefs

Rilke may be a notable poet with a considerable host of high brow admirers, but his Christian beliefs were offbeat resembling those of Dan Brown, and he may have been infected by the influence of the artist Auguste Rodin. Please read the book and article cited. Rodin's Christ and Mary Magdalene (1894):

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_magdalen1.jpg

Wfgh66 (talk) 14:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say that "infected" is a terrible choice of words, given the nature of religious belief. The quote seems to perpetuate its own agenda without adding much to the article. And I never read anything about this in Rilke's diary, which I read in German. But, it's cited, albeit by someone who seems to use Rilke to express her own mysticism surrounding the whole Mary Magdalen thing. Whatever. In any case, something like that doesn't belong in the lead of the article, so I moved it to the section "Rilke's literary style." Icarus of old (talk) 15:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Haskins is not promoting "her own mysticism" in this case, she is simple repeating Rilke's religious beliefs as expressed in his poems, I urge you to read her book, as well as the article, which is available to those with JSTOR accounts. It's a good example of how beliefs about Jesus Christ can be generated by one's own wishful thinking just as much as from the accepted scholarly position. To my knowledge, there was no Christian sect that believed Jesus only became divine upon Crucifixion. This was Rilke's idiosyncratic invention. Rilke married one of Rodin's students, that's what influenced his religious beliefs according to both of the above authors. Wfgh66 (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I would maintain that Haskins is "supposing" from Rilke's poems, as one cannot obtain facts from poems, only "poetic truths." This kind of research is literary, but that does not maintain actual facts, only scholarly opinion. It would be like me saying that I know for a fact that Jack Gilbert hates women because of his poetic treatment of them, which is pure speculation at best. Icarus of old (talk) 03:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Rilke's references to Jesus were contained in unpublished poems. That speaks volumes in itself. At least we can get away from the speculation that the author was "plugging her own mystical beliefs".I still recommend that you read the article and book cited, and the references contained therein relating to the friendship between Rilke and Rodin. Highbrow intellectuals do hold their own particular idiosyncratic interpretations of Christianity that do not match the positions held by scholars and clerics. There is nothing new or remarkable about this. Wfgh66 (talk) 11:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)