Talk:2008 Atlantic hurricane season

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September

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93L.INVEST

Best status from NRL: 25kts 1006 MB

93L.INVEST first appeared 2008-09-18, 1945z @ 12.9ºN 59.8ºW.

TCFA from WTNT01 2008-09-21, 1400z @ 16.5ºN 66.3ºW to 20.8ºN 70.0ºW.

Special Tropical Disturbance Statement from NHC 2008-09-21, 1432z

NHC TWO

2008-09-18, 1200z // 1800z

2008-09-19, 0000z // 0600z // 1200z // 1800z

2008-09-20, 0000z // 0600z // 1200z // 1800z

2008-09-21, 0000z // 0600z // 1200z // 1800z

Tropical Cyclone Reports

01L.Arthur - released July 28, 2008

Hanna article

Premature IMO. It is no immediate threat to land and there is always the possibility it might fizzle before threatening land. 96L (the Campeche blob which IMO is a TD right now) is more warranting at this moment I believe. CrazyC83 (talk) 17:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NHC forecast and the model consensus predict the storm will bend westward, so it's bound to affect land within the next week. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 17:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Atlantic storms almost always impact land eventually. Plasticup ^T/C 16:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Things picking up

With Gustav and Hanna, and maybe two more storms brewing out in the Atlantic, looks like the 2008 season is kicking into gear. Hope you guys are ready for a busy autumn! 68.8.80.43 (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If 96L develops, it will warrant an article almost immediately. The distant waves won't have much to write about in the short term should they develop soon. CrazyC83 (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, it's definitely late August. bob rulz (talk) 12:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"exceeding Category 3"

The article says that this seasons has two "major hurricanes (storms exceeding Category 3 strength in the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale)". But no storm has exceeded Category 3 yet; should it say at or above Category 3?--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ive changed it to say Exceed cat 2 Jason Rees (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Reached Category 3" would be less ambiguous. Plasticup ^T/C 16:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pressure

There seems to be an argument relating to the correct central pressure of Gustav. If anybody can provide a reliable source for it to be 935, I'd like to see it, because the latest advisory says its 945! Chris1193 (talk) 19:19, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Td 9

Come play in my sandbox Itfc+canes=me (talk) 14:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Advisorys

The NHC are struggleing with advisorys.... shall we wait till after the offical advisory time to update? Itfc+canes=me (talk) 09:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that does sound a good idea maybe we should wait untill 15- 20 Minutes after the advisorys are due to update as then we can do it all in one hit esspecially as we now have 4 Cyclones to deal with in this basin.Jason Rees (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am seeing a lot of errors - they really must be swamped. This is my favorite so far: THE INITIAL INTENSITY IS ESTIMATED AT 275/12. Plasticup ^T/C 11:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What if we got someone (plasticup, maybe) to protect the page from ALL edits until 10 minutes after ALL advisorys are issued.... It might not work but for now it would mean that we can have all the infomation AND we can see what mistakes there are. Itfc+canes=me (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plasticup's not an admin, so he can't protect the page. Aside from that, that won't work... –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 16:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok.... Itfc+canes=me (talk) 16:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's not really what edit-protection is for. Plasticup ^T/C 16:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm an admin and I can protect the page, but again, that's not what the locking bit was made for. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 17:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget that the monthly summary for August is really late. :P --141.157.171.113 (talk) 00:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coherant updates

The history of the page right before now is a mess; perhaps it would be better if in the future for an update like this (where Tropical Storm Ike became Hurricane Ike) most of us backed off and the person updating it made a complete change in one edit, like CrazyC83 did. These partial edits look wrong, and we need to update the links to the advisory (our reference source) at the same time we're making the change.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I update the article first (try to do it at once even though I often run into conflicts on busy pages), then copy the current details infobox to allow for a quick update here. The ACE and text details come in subsequent updates. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Edit conflicts are really common when there's an update, so I usually try to make small edits in one section and update it progressively, because otherwise, my edits never get through... Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 17:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible IP Vandalism

I'm putting this message up so we can be sure to monitor the edits made by the I.P. User 125.60.235.231 (talk). As you can see from his contributions list, he has made frequent misguided and/or unconstructive edits to this and other pages, most or all of which have been reverted and assumed good faith without warnings. However, the number and frequency of edits has led me to place a good faith warning on his talk page. Please be sure to notify this user if he continues to make unconstructive edits. Thanks, CB (ö) 03:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gustav is still a TD

As of 11pm EDT, September 3, Gustav is still active. Just because the NHC has stopped monitoring the system does not mean it has dissipated! The Hydrometeorological Prediction Center is still tracking the tropical depression. Please stop changing the infobox/active systems/dissipation date/etc until the HPC does so first. Plasticup ^T/C 03:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It's even on the NHC current cyclone map as still being active. -- グリフオーザー (talk) 09:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Former Tropical Depreesion Gustav" now from HPC which means we can now remove all the current stuff relating to GUSTAV. Jason Rees (talk) 15:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even though it's still raining significantly from the system in the Midwest? I'd think that if there were any lingering weather impacts from the system that it would still be deemed current, no? Thegreatdr (talk) 17:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My thinking was, we track the storm as long as it's still given a name by the HPC, former or not. The HPC doesn't give bulletins for normal rainstorms. --Golbez (talk) 17:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good. HPC will carry advisories on Gustav as long as it is a significant rainfall threat, regardless of its category. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True. Also, remember that the "dissipated" date in the infobox points where the tropical cyclone dissipated, not just when it became extratropical. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 17:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I chaned it but I didn't hear anywhere that it was active. Syntheticalconnections (talk) 00:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Josephine

The weather station said that Josephine was a Category 1 Hurricane as of 11:39am. Should this be changed, or was I misinformed? Stooben Rooben (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You were misinformed,if you want to check, go to http://www.nhc.noaa.gov and click on the icon for Josephine and go to Archive and find the advisories after 5pm yesterday --Elena85 | Talk to Me | 1000 edits!!!' 19:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Stooben Rooben (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Forecast

It would be nice if a sentence was added after current information that said whether the storm was expected to strengthen/weaken/sustain over the next couple days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.86.160.62 (talk) 19:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible retired names?

What names do you think will be retired from this season?

My guess is:

Gustav--obvious choice Dolly-- said to be one of the most destructive hurricanes in texas since rita Fay--stronger than allison, said to have extreme damage Hanna- 535 deaths —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.251.28.178 (talk) 19:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fay- Said to Have Damages
Gustav- 20bil est. 160dead
Hanna- If she isn't retired the world is a very sad place.

--Elena85 | Talk to Me | 1000 edits!!!' 19:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have there been any times when a hurricane name was rumored to be retired but it was revealed at the last minute that it was not?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Retired hurricane names aren't often rumored by officials. If an official agency mentions during the season that they plan/intend to request a storm name for retirement (such as last year with Dean and Noel with Meteo-France), then I believe it'll usually be done. However, that's pretty rare, and usually we won't know what is retired until the WMO meeting in the following spring. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Elena, nothing is certain. Case in point: Hurricane Gordon (1994). And anyway, we don't really discuss this here, as it has nothing to do with improving the article. --Golbez (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will stop but those storms are the ones that I think are possible. --Elena85 | Talk to Me | 1000 edits!!!' 20:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remember we are here to document. If someone who is an acknowledged expert makes a statement about storm retirement, then it is appropriate to say "Dr. Such and such has said that if Hanna isn't retire the world is a sad place." Etc. 66.31.217.132 (talk) 16:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you insulting me, besides I'm just guessing. :(

--Elena85 | Talk to Me | 1800 edits!!!' 20:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane images

There are a lot of uploaders who didn't put the time (in UTC) and date of when the image is taken. Tropical cyclone images are supposed to be like this right? E.g like TS Fay "Fay_19 aug_2008_1615Z.jpg". IrfanFaiz 21:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

also there are some images being uploaded to EN Wikipedia and not Commons as is required Jason Rees (talk) 00:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hanna death toll

I thought the 500+ number was proven to be a gross overestimate several days ago. I put in the latest totals I can find with sources forthcoming, but there seems to be a lot of confusion on how many people Hanna has actually killed, and I'm sure Ike won't help any. bob rulz (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible sub-article?

I'm just putting this out there for as an idea. As we all know, Haiti has been battered by four storms within the span of 3 weeks, Fay, Gustav, Hanna, and Ike. The rains from Fay and Gustav led to the catastrophic flooding from Hanna and the impact of Ike is beginning to show. Combined, these four storms have claimed over 600 lives in Haiti. An article about the four storms and their impacts on Haiti could be made. It doesn't seem useful though as you can put the information in the four individual articles. Like i said, just an idea. –Cyclonebiskit 14:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a good idea. Each individual article can cover their impacts just as well, and at the end of the season a "Deaths and damages" section can be added to the season article. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 14:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, ok.–Cyclonebiskit 14:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking that, post-season, we might want to consider writing Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti. I know there is no precedent, but sometimes the most interesting articles are the ones that are off the beaten track. Plasticup ^T/C 02:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't like the idea. If and only if the season article and storm article exceeds their limits can we justify having such an article. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 13:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But it could be an interesting angle. Neither the season nor the storm articles could properly convey the cumulative effect of these storms: how the disasters built on each other, floods never had a chance to recede, etc. I wouldn't support simply re-writing bits of the other articles into a new one; I think that there would be new material there. But hey, we'll see. Plasticup ^T/C 15:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll from all four storms now over 1,000. The article doesn't say how much for each storm, but subtracting the known from Fay, Gustav, and Hanna, would leave >485 others, presumably from Ike. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's the trouble. I don't think that you can attribute many of the deaths to one storm in particular. Many of them are the result of the floods and landslides that were caused by the four storms together. Plasticup ^T/C 19:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with Juliancolton for basically the same reason as Plasticup. Just because X deaths occurred after Hurricane X does not mean that those people were killed by hurricane X. Doing that is like arguing that some people were killed in a landslide on Tuesday by Hurricane Y, which hit a few days after Hurricane X, even though the landslide would never have happened had Hurricane X never existed whereas the landslide would still have happened had Hurricane Y never existed, only on Wednesday instead of Tuesday. So I'd have to agree that Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti is not necessarily a bad idea. Hurricane Mitch murdered Honduras so mercilessly that new maps were needed. Let's say that Haiti needs new maps after this season. Anybody have any idea about how to decide whether those new maps were due to Fay, Gustav, Hanna, or Ike? Hence, Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti being a useful article is entirely possible.

Also, it certainly possible for the NHC to be unable to attribute a damage amount to one single storm: This area had previously been affected by Hurricane Opal a week or two before and it is difficult to separate the damage caused by Opal and Roxanne. Best estimate of the combined damage in the Yucatan peninsula is $1.5 billion.... However, I think that it would be best to wait until the season is over before starting such an article. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My question remains. Why can't the information be covered in an Impact section of the season article, like 2003 AHS, 2005 AHS, 2006 AHS, 2007 AHS? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 00:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It could be, but the season articles are generally pretty big without going into detail about the effects in any one country. I might play with a sandbox when the season is over and then we can decide whether it should be incorporated into the season article or stand in its own. There is no need to make a decision until we see what the prose will look like. Plasticup ^T/C 00:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tables are nearly useless for data/information that cannot be ranked in some way. (The fancy term for this unrankable stuff is "qualitative"). By and large, an article like Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti would be what you'd get (and a possible parent of) Effects of Tropical Storm Fay (2008) in Haiti, Effects of Hurricane Gustav in Haiti, Effects of Hurricane Hanna in Haiti, and Effects of Hurricane Ike (2008) in Haiti (or effects of ... in Hispaniola as an alternative for all of them) all lumped into one article, plus "collective effects" and redactions to make it flow smoothly. The "collective"/"cumulative" info is why simply using the individual articles is not entirely adequate. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 02:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The news agencies are starting to pick up on it. Lots of good sources out there now. 1 million homeless. There is a google news topic on it. Gonaïves seems to have it worst, and the situation continues to deteriorate. I just want to store some links here in case we want them. Plasticup ^T/C 03:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gonaives? I knew that sounded familiar, that's where Jeanne killed 3000 people. Bad place for hurricanes. --Golbez (talk) 05:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the idea of this sub-article but it should not be made until after the season and probably after the TCRs for each respective storm are released. I think that an in-depth analysis of these storm's effects on the country are far beyond the scope of the season article, especially in such an active season and also since Ike looks like it may be very damaging for the U.S. We have an Effects of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans, so why not Effects of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season in Haiti? Also, I'm finding it essentially impossible to distinguish the deaths between Hanna and Ike now as no one really knows. We'll probably have to wait for the TCRs to see what the NHCs info provides us with. bob rulz (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disease is setting in, on top of the obvious food and water shortage. Plasticup ^T/C 22:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The dust hasn't completely settled, so I'd recommend against a season effects subarticle for now. So what if the season's impact section dominates—it's supposed to be the bulk of the article, IMHO. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 09:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protect?

After multiple vandal attacks. Should we protect this article? --IrfanFaiz 13:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the vandals are significantly disturbing the article. Plasticup ^T/C 18:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If none of the Season storm articles are protected then the Main season article shouldnt be be protected Jason Rees (talk) 19:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Landfalls

If you read back on some of the public advisories for Hurricane Ike, it clearly states that the eye passed directly over both the Turks and Caicos islands, and Great Inagua Island, Bahamas. Hurricane Hanna also made two other New England Landfalls, one near Islip New York, and the other near New Haven Connecticut as a tropical storm, not extratropical. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it went back into the Atlantic.. for it of having another landfall. -- グリフオーザー (talk) 19:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at Image:Hanna 2008 track.png, it's pretty clear that it crossed the Atlantic to get to Islip, New York, and it would have been a pretty dance to get from Islip to New Haven, Connecticut--and one that would have taken right across NYC.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the NHC did not report it in the advisories or discussions. Maybe the TCR will determine such though. CrazyC83 (talk) 21:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I can see the landfall disputes with Hanna... But Ike clearly made landfall on both the Turks Islands AND Grand Inagua. I'm changing them back to landfalls from direct hits. 24.222.149.228 (talk) 22:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do you get a direct hit that isn't a landfall? Surely it's not direct in such a case. Also, why would such be listed in a column titled "Landfalls". The fact they're listed is misleading. - JVG (talk) 16:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Direct hit = the eyewall, or highest winds - hit a landmass, but the center of the eye does not. CrazyC83 (talk) 20:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ike longest cyclone

What was the longest cyclone since 2000 if not Ike?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the longest-lived Atlantic hurricane? -Ramisses (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If so...Ike hasn't even lived as long as Bertha.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ike is not a particularly exceptional storm. Plasticup ^T/C 01:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right, non-exceptional storms that cause storm surges of >20 feet on several landfalls a path of destruction from Seargent Texas to Lafayette, Louisiana, something like 100 people still missing from bolivar peninsula, near complete domicile destruction on bolivar peninsula. estimated 16 billion dollars ($16,000,000,000) worth of damage in Texas alone. Catagory 2 storm with a catagory 4 storm surge (although NOAA is proposing to move Ike to 3 on landfall) There were bouys in the gulf of mexico that registered Cat 3 winds sustained prior to landfall. Chambers county reported that over 50% of structures were either severly damaged or destroyed. Catagories in which Ike is exceptional.

Damage done to structures in Texas (#1). Note that Texas was the site of the 1900 hurricane, the worst natural disaster to hit the US. Ike is _now_ believed to have more energy than this storm, although the eye spared Galveston and destroyed bolivar.
Land area submerged by storm surge (#1-Texas)
Number of customers who lost power in the Southwest. % of customers in a major US city that lost power for more than a few days. As of Friday, one week after power went off in Galveston only 50% of people had regained power.
Texas hurricanes that cause a loss of shoreline, probably #1.
Area within the Gulf of Mexico, moment with tropical storm force winds
Area within the Gulf of Mexico, moment with hurricane force winds.
Within the Gulf of Mexico, moment of energy transformation. If Ike is not the single most powerful (in terms of energy dissipation) it will be among the top 5 storms of all time. I was monitoring bouy locations prior to and after the storm, in the areas that tropical storm force winds or greater passed, water temperature dropped an average of 2 degrees, and within the hurricane force wind areas, 3 degrees. This is going to be a storm that is studied for decades because of its anomalous structure and storm surge generation. Ike is an exceptional storm based on precedences.PB666 ^yap 15:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it pretty clear that he meant that Ike was not exceptional in length of existence.--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I should add to this, because the eye of Ike past over east galveston Island, and because the eye was so broad, possibly 2 wall structures, the storm surge on galveston proper was not more than 14 feet. However in East Galveston County and Southern Chambers County you are goiing to see an approximated storm surge exceeding 20 feet. For example, High Island that sets at 33 ft MSL has a debris line of 25 feet MSL. Gilchrist experienced complete devastation, something like 99.5% of structures were razed. At the Rollover Pass, 5 to 6 rows of homes, there has been a retraction of real estate from the SW end of the pass back to highway 87, this is one the order of 100-200 meters. Satelites photos indicate the storm cut into the soft and hard clay base indicating a very powerful erosion of the peninsula. Gilchrist and Rollover Pass appear to be the points of highest water flow across the peninsula. The USGS had instruments within the Rollover Pass to measure water flow, but this information has not been reported. We are going to see, when all the analysis is complete, that the most severe winds and surge occurred in unexpected areas off a second wind maxima, probably catagory 3 winds and sugre driven be a huge surge engine.

The surge does not appear to have been as catastrophic as some predicted,...

Tell that to the 10,000s of people of Bolivar peninsula that lost homes. I spent the better part of a day tracking down the what's left of a friends house by satellite image, one gets pretty familiar with the extent of damage, the only thing I can compare bolivar to is Bande Ache, Indonesia.

and it's damage was due more to the location of the landfall than the power of the storm. Meteorologically, Ike was not an exceptional storm. Plasticup ^T/C 17:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meteorologically alone cyclones do not exist. West abutting beach, Rollover Pass, Google Maps N Bauer Ln, Bolivar, Texas, Before After. [http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3. Note S. Bauer Ln no longer exists, where it used to exist is now part of the gulf of Mexico. The darker colors are compacted clay. IOW the storm surge eroded the sand down to the silt and clay base. To clear up one misconception, a tropical cyclone does not neccesarily requires the tropics, it requires tropical waters, or in other words water with latent energy comparable to waters in the tropics. Water and storm are not divisible. Although we understand much more about what goes on at the surface, new bouys and instruments are directed at what is going on under the surface. Ike exhibits all the qualities of a very mature and strong hurricane in terms of its energy transferrance, it may be one of the oldest storms that formed Cat 3+. Fluid dynamics are very much part of the maturation process. The coastal topology of the Gulf of mexico is as much a part of the storms intensity (energy transferance) moreso that measurement of maximum wind speeds. Part of that energy transference was in the hydrostatic pressure gradients produced by a surge. Bolivar was not the end point of the surge, water was pushed over island across the intercoastal canal, into Bollover Bay and into marshlands of Chambers county, therefore Bolivar was not a hard edge like the seawall, water pushed still further inland. We can look at it like this, if we consider the depth of size of Galveston bay 1,500 km², and consider the storm pushed water an average of 4 meters, and expanded the size of the Bay by 50%. This translates to 10,000,000,000,000 kgs of water elevated by an average of 2 meters equates to 200 Terajoules of energy in the hydrostatic gradient itself. This does not count water offshores or in other bays, such as around New Iberia Louisiana. The hydrostatic gradient may be driven by wind at the surface, but the momentum in the waters motion is carried subsurface, this is why in one photo below, 3 days after parts around high island are still under surge waters. In addition the storm carried warm water into the bay increased the latent energy in the water column providing additional impact value not seen in smaller storms.

Some people are arguing that Isaac's Storm meteorologist Isaac Cline was misled by higher than expected pressure because the 1900 storm may have had a structure much like Ike's, an aged storm ill-defined central eyewall and modest pressure, with a large bands of wind modes away from the first eye-wall. The fault you are making is that you consider strength only interms of moments of inertia at a single point or surge values at measured points. If you knew much about damage and energy you would realize that one has to consider how much energy was transferred from latent heat in the oceans water to kinetic and other dynamic processes (mechanical) and that tells one the strength of the event over an area. To consider this consider that within hours of landfall the surge is moving at 5 to 10 m/sec across the peninsula, that the mass of water is 1020 grams/liter versus air 1.33 grams per liter. That the energy is given by 1/2mv2 that surge energies are 5 to 20 times greater than wind energy. IOW by maturing Ike transferred a large amount of its 'meteorological' observed energy under the waters surface. The surge forces preceded maximum winds by hours and continued hours after the storm passed, and there was a reverse current that lasted for days after Ike was gone.

This image shows the same but high resolution shows the debris line that made its way up the salt dome. The peak of the surge is believed, however, to have been over Rollover Pass.

Wait and the scientific information will catch up with the observations on the ground.

The surge was not as catastrophic as some predicted because:

The eyewall moved north of its most probable landfall, San Luis Pass to approximately the South Galveston Jetty.
In doing this, at maximum wind it moved the vulnerable areas of Galveston to the 'clean side' of the storm, which means water was retreating into the gulf. The East end of galveston was devastated. The Eyewall was approximately 10 miles radius at impact, which placed the eastern Eyewall over the bolivar peninsula. If you follow the maps from here to here you can see what might have happened to Galveston and Western side of Galveston bay if landfall had been at Seargent, as predicted 3 days before landfall. Don't confuse the lack of information with the lack of occurrence. Even new homes in Crystal Beach survived, however no homes in the farthest east portion of Galveston county, south of TX Hwy 87 (from here to TX hwy 124 survived intact. Lack of surviving housing, level of beach erosion including areas were the island was wider, significant loss of beach front in areas were countermeasures were taken, all indicate that the storm surge maximum was not close to Galveston on Bolivar. I saw the same bullshit after Hurricane Allen, everyone said Allen has lost strength, even though people at Baffin bay registered winds of 140 mph. I went to South Padre Island 2 weeks after the storm, hurricane Allen missed the population center by about 10 miles, but if one traveled an additional 10 miles the Island had been chopped to bits, with 1/4 mile spans in which road set on buried 8 x 8 x 8 foot granite cubes had been ripped out and could no longer be found, followed by lengths of 1/4 to 1/2 mile of dune, followed by 1/4 mile stretches, this went on for miles. I collected exotic fish in these transient lagoons one normally finds on reefs in the Gulf of Mexico. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.PB666 ^yap 21:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Debris are washed up by wave action, which is distinct from the storm surge. Please see our article for details. Plasticup ^T/C 21:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Own you can replace this with an article name which you are referring to. Indeed some debris washed up by wave action, those 50 foot waves that crossed over the a land mass traveled 3 miles inland,not. It may be true that some debris was elevated by wave, but surge action was the base those waves deposited debris. And if you examine the image, you will note that the initial winds of the storm were from the east and the south, but this debris was found on the western part of the high Island dome. This debris was deposited after the storm had passed high Island. IOW no big ocean waves, these are bay waves. Typical bay waves never exceed 3 feet, unless of course the Bay is 20 to 30 feet deep. See: Ocean_surface_wave PB666 ^yap 22:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to our article on storm surge, to which I provided a link. Sorry for the confusion. Plasticup ^T/C 15:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Hurricane Ike" vs "Hurricane Ike (2008)"

For better or for worse, the Hurricane Ike article currently resides at Hurricane Ike, not Hurricane Ike (2008). Discussions about the name of that article are appropriate on its talk page, not in the comments of this article. Or, if you think the policy of generally fixing double redirects is wrong, read this and then take the discussion here. --AdamRoach (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion on the article's talk page concluded that we should leave it at Hurricane Ike. Plasticup ^T/C 02:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]