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Where is the proof of this? and if he is a leader, why is his name not in the leadership pack? Or at least, what is the activities that make him "appears" to be a leadere? In anycase, I think his name should be deleted from this page. Also the pictures that shows Sondhi talking to Saprang on the front is so bias. It makes people think that the Military and PAD is in bad together which may or may not be true. Same as the alligations that Nor-Por-Kor (with many pictures in this page) is in bed with Thaksin Shinawattra which may or may not be true.
If wikipedia is truely against the bias. The website should monitoring "indirect" communication like this that make people interpretate things as well.
Quote: "The two sides, both armed, clashed. "Gunfire was heard from the yellow side." One person from the anti-PAD side died. People from both sides were injured. Those are the facts. Let's keep the article at that. " from Mr.Patiwat <-- How did you know about the gunfire. Were you there? If you are not, may be we shouldn't put it in. Where is the "proof" that gun fire came from PAD side? Also, did you forget one fact that "Nor-por-kor is the one who "move" towards PAD? isn't this mean something? When you explain the fact, you have to give the whole content not just only content that you like. You are destroying wikipedia if you do such thing, let people decide for what it is. For example, wouldn't you agree with me that these are facts
- Nor-por-kor move against PAD
- Both have armer and weapons
- There were gun fire"s" and there is a video that recorded "Nor-por-kor" group or red shirts shooting. (We all have seen this video)
- One person die and he is one of the red shirts
I think this is more like the fact which we have proof to back things up.
There are some images that has been deleted for reference reason, which is fine base on website policy. But then, why some images which certainly has been grabbed from pro-thaksin website can be used? You said that we should not use the manager.co.th source because it is bias. What about the other side?
It is a sad truth that this gentelmen is dead. However, I think those pictures with funerals should be deleted too because it is from the bias sources. Once again, nobody knows who killed him. The police is still investigating. I think the fact that we try to make the reader interpretate it as PAD is just not right.
Pointless and repeated reinsertion of links which either already appear in the article text or more properly belong in an External Links section of the wiki pages for those topics. 3rr template placed on user page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaidleHands (talk • contribs) 04:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Demand for royal intervention
Someone placed a neutrality disputed tag in the Demand for royal intervention section. Please specifically describe why you think this section is not neutral. Patiwat (talk) 12:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Article structure
Wow, all this controversy and hardly any discussion! I'm going to do some editing on the article to try to improve the structure a bit. I don't know anything about the topic, so I won't change the content except to remove NPOV violations that are obvious even to somebody who doesn't know anything. Looie496 (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Repeated reversions
What is it about the No-confidence vote section that is biased? They are all statements of fact, backed up by references. And yet this section was constantly reverted:
Amid 4 months in power and public / street protests by the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), Samak Sundaravej, 73, and all 7 cabinet members, on June 27, 2008, survived the no-confidence motion / 3 days censure debate terminated by the Friday voting session. As predicted by opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva, of 442 MPs present, Sundaravej got 280 votes of confidence and 162 votes of no-confidence
The PAD called for the resignation of the Samak government. vs. The PAD called for the resignation of the governments of Thaksin Shinawatra and Samak Sundaravej, who the PAD accuses of being a proxy for and defender of Thaksin.
The PAD spent all of 2005-2006 calling for the resignation of the Thaksin government. In a paragraph dealing with the PAD's ideology, this point should not be ignored.
...the inability of rural, uneducated voters to elect a favorable Parliament due to easy vote-buying.
This is POV and not fact. An opposite POV would be that they are voting for parties that the PAD is against because those policies are better for them.
the government is disloyal to the monarchy. vs. has claimed that its enemies are disloyal to the monarchy.
The former is POV, the latter is fact. Facts belong in this article, not one-sided POV.
It has openly called for the palace, the military, and Thailand's traditional elite to take a greater role in politics.
This is a fact, with sources. I don't see why you're repeatedly deleting it.
appeared in full uniform at PAD protests claiming Prem’s consent and urging his fellow soldiers to follow suit.
This is a fact, with sources. I don't see why you're repeatedly changing it.
Wikipedia should be logical in acceptance of articles. PAD (People Against Democracy). Please define democracy - Government by the people for the people - One man / women One Vote. The PAD wants to appoint a "democratic" government. They are proxy to the military and royal family elite. The declaration of needing to appoint a government and removing the rights to vote from the rural area simply means the death of democracy and a return to the feudal ages. The real gripe is that Thaksin's party dare to make changes to break the age old hold on power by the military and move towards true democracy. Wikepedia should be more strict in its article acceptance and use basic logic test. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.157.37 (talk) 07:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Heavens child, BasicallySo, and GoodHands, please refrain from making reversions without discussing these issues, or I request that the article be locked or go into dispute resolution. Patiwat (talk) 05:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Article protected for 2 days
Per the notification at WP:ANI#People's Alliance for Democracy, I have fully-protected this article for two days in its current form to prevent further edit-warring and give all parties involved in this dispute an opportunity to resolve their content differences here, as Patiwat has attempted to do above. Protection can be removed, or extended, as necessary, and it might also be useful to remind editors that three reverts are not an entitlement, and a return to disruptive editing once the protection is lifted will result in account sanctions. Finally, the advice on the dispute resolution page might be helpful. EyeSerenetalk 09:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Last Paragraph of the "Police Brutality and Samak Supporters’ Violence" Section Needed to Be Moderated
It is unfair to label the opposition demonstrators of the PAD as Samak supporters. Please use "pro-government demonstrators" (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/01/thailand.protests/index.html). Moreover, the paragraph did not mention the use of guns by the PAD members against the opposition demonstrators. The person who was killed is one of the pro-government demonstrators. By concealing guns inside the PAD stronghold, the PAD protesting is no longer peaceful and lawful by any existing law on earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Equality of Man (talk • contribs) 05:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think they should be called "anti-PAD protesters" since they don't necessarily support the government. I'd also just call that entire section "Violence" since nearly every report I've seen so far says that the police response has been restrained, and police brutality can be a fairly subjective thing (just look at the RNC violence). Patiwat (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Police force had just been ordered that afternoon to strip off all offensive equipment excepts shields. How do you expect them to react to the angry mob with guns and daggers? However, they had called for support from both police and army headquarters. The incident all happened within 20 minuite. Please recheck the incident and give a fair report to the police.Equality of Man (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Will look forward to your edits when the page is unlocked. Patiwat (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This image, which illustrates "violence," can't be posted as the article is locked. The image is "orphaned" and about to be deleted, so I'm parking it here for the nonce. Pawyilee (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the photo, the anti-PAD was carrying fighting sword while the PAD peoples only had sticks. Also see the photo at http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9510000104084 to see what kind of weapons anti-PAD carried. I am not aware of any report about concealed gun by PAD and would love to see it. Only news I heard was the discovery of war guns in government house by PAD and it was reported to the police. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image is still up, but can't be used outside of articles. Here it is: Image:Art.factions.clash.ap.jpg Patiwat (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The two sides, both armed, clashed. Gunfire was heard from the yellow side. One person from the anti-PAD side died. People from both sides were injured. Those are the facts. Let's keep the article at that.
It's open to conjecture (see this blow by blow report) whether the UDD/DAAD was going to set up camp at Makkawan Bridge (after all, they had a truck with tents) to taunt the PAD and block them off, or whether they were going to attack the PAD. Let's leave speculation out of this article.
And let's not rely on manager.co.th as a reference here - they can hardly be considered a 3rd party source. There is more than enough national and international press coverage of the events. Patiwat (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link. A nice read. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ideology
The PAD is a political movement, and this article should have a section on ideology. Some aspects of PAD ideology be included, besides that which is already mentioned:
"He (Sondhi) favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."
Newsweek also says that the supporters of the PAD are:
"civil servants threatened by his (Thaksin's) efforts to trim bureaucracy, trade unions representing industries facing privatization, an urban middle class that resents rural development initiatives and traditional Buddhist groups that fear wholesale Westernization of Thai culture."
On political ideology, Sondhi is very clear. From Time
"It's taken for granted in the West that democracy is the best system,"
"Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand."
When the article is unlocked (it feels as if more than 2 days has passed) these 3rd party notes on PAD ideology should be included in the article.
- Patiwat (talk) 03:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added 2 subsections: one for political ideology and another for economic ideology. When necessary, I've contrasted the ideologies of the PAD with the TRT/PPP. Patiwat (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've also added a 3rd subsection on Nationalism. I know that nationalism theoretically falls under politics, but the flavor of nationalism advocated by the PAD can be understood independently of their political views. Patiwat (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One other suggestion: a key part of the PAD's ideology is the role of the King. The PAD favors a non-traditional interpretation about the role of the monarchy: the monarch's discretion in appointing civil servants (without royal firing, royally-appointed civil servant can refuse to leave position), the role of the monarch vs. the role of the government in making military policy and appointments (it supports zero government role, everything goes direct to King), the role of the monarch in political affairs (King asked to make regular interventions).
This is not an untouchable topic - the PAD regularly makes it suggestions loud and clear on stage, print, and TV, and since the 2006 crisis, there is much more public discussion about the role and future of the monarchy (mostly by western academics). Patiwat (talk) 03:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Ownership" of Preah Vihear Temple
Some edits have contributed "It was also opposed to the Samak government's decision to eliminate Thailand's partial ownership of the Preah Vihear Temple and support the Cambodian government's sole application for the listing of Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage site. Anything claiming Thai ownership (even partial ownership) of Preah Vihear is POV, as the issue is very controversial. Let's keep it to the facts: "It was also opposed to the Samak government's decision to support the Cambodian government in applying for the listing of Preah Vihear as a World Heritage site." Patiwat (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is "sufficient context" for the 2008 crisis?
There is an "insufficient context" tag in the 2008 crisis section. What would have to be added to that section to provide sufficient context? Patiwat (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The way the subsection was added, and still remains, it seemed like most of the info was lifted from news articles from 30 August and didn't properly weave in with the rest of the article. I think a re-write would be proper. --Paul_012(talk) 19:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Page protection renewed (semi)
Given the continuing vandalism on this article, I have extended its protection for one month, but reduced the level to semi-protected. New and unregistered users are no longer able to edit the article, although making suggestions on this talk page is still possible (and indeed strongly encouraged). Other editors are unaffected. Regards, EyeSerenetalk 10:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Controversy
As Sondhi is the owner of Manager Group, News releases on the newspaper is on PAD side. A lot of media(s) also support them as a result from conflict between Mr. Thaksin and Media(s). For an example, PAD dress in yellow and Anti-PAD dress in red. Yellow represents Thai king while red represents country. PAD, therefore, dress in yellow or tie yellow collar while Anti-PAD dress in red or tie red collar.
In subject 'Violence' in this topic show picture who dressed in red got beaten by who dressed in yellow. However, the description of the picture seem to be wrong. Maybe the subject writer also a victim of disinformation tactics.
In addtion, unarmed is false claim. While polices try to dissolve PAD from the area, they found swords, dirks, knives, clubs, maces and golf drivers. Polices are also found drugs (Kratom's leaf), guns and bullets in the area.
In parliament building has some automatic rifles for soldiers that patrol on the area. Some were found by PAD and gave back to government. However, some are missing.
The incident was broadcasting on some channel which are not supporting PAD. For the channel supporting PAD, they avoid the screen by switch to commercial or somethings.
For 'One person of unknown political affiliation was killed', Thai media(s), on PAD side, are attempt to cover things up. They are prefer to release only facts that benefit PAD.
Excuse me, apart from too many grammatical errors above, I do not agree with the above comment. PAD was protesting peacefully for three months without a serious situation, until armed UDD or red No Po Ko moved from Sanam Luang at about 2am to attack us.
Media are not bribed as happened during Thaksin's term as well as photos of UDD backed by PPP politiians were taken. I was also at the protest site that night. More facts are in People's Alliance for Democracy's Website www.antithaksin.com—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.120.52.199 (talk) 03:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One person of unknown political affiliation
One who got killed is Anti-PAD. His name is Narongsak Kobthaisong (ณรงศักดิ์ กอบไธสง). Since media(s) neglect dead of Anti-PAD supporter. People on the side getting more and more furious on media(s) and PAD. In addition, over promoting injured on PAD supporter and blaming Anti-PAD for using violence, is like throw fuel into a flame.
As his funeral is taboo to be on Thai newspapers and media(s), his picture can only be found in Anti-PAD website such as ClubThaksin.com.
Since PADs are hyper-nationalists, many Thai(s), as well as foreigner, starting to recognize PAD as fascists. They are controlling media(s) and presenting only facts that would benefit them. In addition, they are against capitalism. They are not welcome foreign investors. Claiming foreign taking advantage of Thai. These remind many of what Nazi has done in World War.
Excuse me again, apart from too many grammatical errors, you also show some confusions and contradictory statements to your topic.
I do not agree with the above comment. PAD was protesting peacefully for three months without a serious situation, until armed UDD or red No Po Ko moved from Sanam Luang at about 2am to attack us.
Was it not UDD, red No Po Ko, who raided the Privy Council house in 2006 and showed the style of fierce attack by violenct Thaksin's supporters? Was it not UDD , red No Po Ko, led by Kwanchai Praipana one of PPP member under Samak who viciously attacked PAD in Udornthani?
Media are not bribed as happened during Thaksin's term as well as photos do not lie.
If the police under the Thaksin's proxy has not taken side, and keep peace, then, PAD would not have to defend themselves by makeshift sticks and helmets.
More facts are in People's Alliance for Democracy's Website www.antithaksin.com
PAD supporter's Sexual Activities and Drug trafficking in Government House
Rumor spreads everywhere in Thailand that PAD supporters (and/or leaders) having sex (and/or group sex) in Government house. Journalist found many used condoms in the area. In addition, PAD supporters has done many outlaw things in the house. However, Sri Wi Chai Warriors forbid photographing. Some journalists were threatening and some were sexual abused. Khaosod's journalist was, by chance, able to take a photo of equipments use to intake drug called ICE (pure Methamphetamine) in the area (http://www.matichon.co.th/khaosod/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRJeU1UUTJORFEwTXc9PQ==). ICE is widely used in celebrity for enhance pleasure while having sex. In Thailand, Methamphetamine in less purity form is called "Mad Drug" (Yaa Baa or ยาบ้า). "Yaa Baa" is widely used among workers to maintain alertness, focus, motivation, and mental clarity for extended periods of time, and for recreational purposes.
Later, Khaosod's journalist were threaten by Sri Wi Chai warriors and the incident was report by Prachatouch journalist (http://www.prachatouch.com/content.php?id=9644). Thai Rath's journalist questions PAD leaders for letting their men to use press room for sexual activities. As PAD supporters, somehow lost mind enough to, well..., masturbate in front of journalist. The newspaper also raise question about toilet and hygiene because some supporters shitting (sorry, don't know polite word of these verb) outdoor around the house (http://www.thairath.co.th/news.php?section=politics&content=104340). Currently, due to low hygiene, Infectious Skin Diseases are outbreak in the area.
Due to issues, PAD leaders demand changing interviewing place. They want interview to be hold on stage in front of their supporters. However, this makes journalists feel threatening by PAD's people. As, PAD leader say "We can't stop people to get angry", many journalists doubt if they can really ask questions.
The Prachatouch newspaper was funded by formerly TRT member[1], with former Anti-PAD head as advisor. [2] The accuracy of this newspaper should be treated similar to Manager. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 06:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sri Wi Chai Warriors beat a man and retain him inside the rally
After medias start to report both side of PAD, Sri Wi Chai Warriors is pissing. Now they require journalists to be checked before entering the area. About rumors that supporters having sex (or group sex) in rally, it's seem true. The warriors report via Daily News that they found prostitutes entering rally to sell their services. Now they place pictures of prostitutes around at Doors 7-9 on Oratai bridge. Warriors attempt to banned them from entering the area. Not sure if it was advertisement instead. Not only prostitute start selling something in government house's area but many merchants also doing the same. Some of goods might come from thievery.
