Talk:Inslaw
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| The enclosed suspicious deaths need serious verification. |
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| The following suspicious deaths have been placed in a collapsed state because the details are strongly disputed due to very poor reliability, credibility and verification. |
[dubious ]
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| The above is an extended post that has been collapsed for improved usability. |
Please discuss these suspicious deaths individually—that is, in separate sections of the talk page, one for each. Since they lack reliability, credibility and verification, I feel that they do not belong in the main article until those three elements can be discussed satisfactorily. I left them in the main article on 13 September 2008 in order to spark discussion. Obviously, they are important enough NOT TO BE DELETED at the present time; however if they can not be verified satisfactorily, then they will be deleted at some point in the near future. Hag2 (talk) 16:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Triple homicide: (Fred Alvarez et al)
The 1996 book Return of the Buffalo by Ambrose Lane clearly disputes many points alleged in the triple homicide of Fred Alvarez, Ray [sic] Boger, and Patricia Castro. Until a good investigation of that crime is performed, it is premature to conclude that the triple homicide is related to Inslaw. As I understand from reading the website of Boger's daughter, the Riverside District Attorney's Office has reopened the case due to new evidence. At present, I have been unable to confirm this claim. Since the crime is a cold case of over ten years, I suspect that it will be next to impossible to find any true and conclusive evidence suggesting that the murders were related—even remotely—to Inslaw. Anne Teedham (talk) 13:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Alvarez Murders
Hi Anne, I'm not sure who you are, or anything, but apparently you made some comments on my dad's murder in relation to the Inslaw case? I'm not sure who initially added my dad's case to the wiki page but I happened to look today and it was all gone as well as a lot of other things in relation to it. First, I would like to say my dad's name is RALPH Boger, not Ray. You also went on to quote a book called Return of the Buffalo.. were you aware that old man Nichols (who was involved in the murders) paid to have that book written to discredit everything? Have you read any other books on the subject that clearly show the connections? You also said you went on my site-I am here to first confirm that the case IS reopened. Had you actually looked at my site and spent some time there you would have easily seen where the connection was based on the documented evidence I have there. Everything I have on my site is verifiable and I do have either a)documented evidence to back it up or b)taped phone conversations. Perhaps checking out the TV station in California KESQ would be of help to you. Instead of just deleting everything you don't agree with, since you were on my site anyway, a nice email asking the questions you had would have helped to remedy this issue. Rachel Begley aka desertfae —Preceding unsigned comment added by Desertfae (talk • contribs) 01:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- Desertfae, The comment that I made is not in contradiction to any known verifiable facts. Although the book Return of the Buffalo may have been a commissioned work, this does not mean that Ambrose's conclusions must be disregarded altogether. At times (and I might add at very relevant times), Ambrose does fail to support his remarks with verifiable and supporting documentation. However, until a direct relationship can be drawn between the Inslaw Case and the triple homicide, then a claim that they are related must be questioned as "dubious", and as original research. If the case has been reopened, then perhaps you can link the various editors to any supporting evidence which may help them in deciding whether or not the triple homicide is "directly related to the Inslaw Case". You have mistakenly concluded that it was I who deleted the reference to the murders from the main article. I have tracked down that deletion to this timeframe 16:49, 13 September 2008, and you may find it helpful to contact We663r, the other editor Hag2 merely seems to have collapsed that material into a box which he then duplicated HERE (at the talkpage) . I will take a look at the California KESQ TV station; however if you know exact url-linking to reliable public information, it is sometimes helpful (to the editors) to link them directly to the source of a claim. Anne Teedham (talk) 13:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Perhapes you didn't search correctly- http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=8687765&nav=menu191_1_1_3 http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=8766891&nav=menu191_1_1_3 (talks about Inslaw) http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=8993895&nav=menu191_1_1_3 wow, it even has video.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.56.3 (talk) 11:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
followup [14:52 (UTC)] I have pursued the KESQ search engine with the criteria "Fred Alvarez" and found eight references to that name. It will take some time to digest the material. Anne Teedham (talk) 14:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
User 96.28.56.3, Wikipedia's primary interest is to report an encyclopedic analysis of people, places, and events. It is not to report incendiary issues, or titillating speculation, or innuendo, or gossip. The article on Inslaw is an attempt to provide accurate factual information which is backed by reliable, verifiable, and credible reference material. At present, I do not see Inslaw lacking in those regards.
The triple homicide of Fred Alvarez, Ralph Boger, and Patricia Castro may be related; however, to date, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest such a relationship. The KESQ 33-part series does not report anything about Inslaw that has not been investigated widely through the past thirty-years. On July 31, 2008 11:21 AM EDT, KESQ, in fact, even reports inaccurately that the congressional hearings on Inslaw "ended inconclusively."
By 1997, Congress had accepted the ruling of the Federal Court of Claims and had adopted the three-panel judges decision on the matter. KESQ further reports that:
Cabazon business manager John Phillip Nichols later went to prison for a separate case of murder solicitation, but tribal officials say that any connection to the Alvarez triple murder was "ridiculous and malicious."
Wackenhut corporation declined to comment to News Channel 3, but denied any wrongdoing in the book "Return of the Buffalo: The Story Behind America's Indian Gaming Explosion."
The murder case has been reopened and closed multiple times in the past 27 years. Sheriff's investigators have asked friends and former partners of District Attorney Investigator David McGowan whether he was working the case in 2005.
An investigation concluded that McGowan murdered his family of five before shooting himself on May 10th, 2005. Surviving family members tell News Channel 3 they believe the investigation was rushed and incomplete.
Sheriff's officials now tell News Channel 3 the District Attorney's office was not investigating the Alvarez case.
Another document says otherwise:
Former DA Investigator and current Indio Councilman Gene Gilbert handled the case in the early 1990's.
— paragraphs 20-27, EXCLUSIVE: 1981 Triple Murder Tied to McGowan Murders-Suicide?
This hardly suggests that the Riverside County District Attorney's Office has been moved forward too much by the Cold Case Division's investigation of anything related to Inslaw. The above even suggests that the district attorney's office is not convinced that the murders of either Alvarez, or McGowan are related to one another.
Moreover, KESQ's suggestions that the new documents which it has in its possession are revealing is hardly responsible journalism unless those documents can be authenticated and can be accepted by primary investigators as sufficient evidence upon which to bring forth a charge against someone.
Finally, KESQ posts on September 11, 2008 04:29 PM EDT that:
Fred Alvarez was planning to blow the whistle on a business partnership between defense contractor Wackenhut Services and Cabazon Manager John Phillip Nichols to form Cabazon Arms. Nichols allegedly planned on using Indian land to test and build pistols, assault rifles, sniper guns and rocket launchers. The partnership was interested in biological weapons that could be deployed in small countries.
— Part 31: Secret Government Program Linked To Local Murders?
There is no conclusive evidence to establish these remarks as fact. If there were, then multitudes of past investigators would have pursued the above as highly significant evidence. To date, a fact that there are websleuth conspiracy theorists who feel that this material is factual, and writing as such on bulletin boards across the Internet...is irrelevant.
On the whole, I doubt very seriously that any editors of an article in Wikipedia would be willing to include in Inslaw such unreliable innuendo, or fanciful speculation. Hag2 (talk) 14:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Hag-perhaps you should learn to search better, or are you purposely trying to distort the facts?
Sheriff's officials now tell News Channel 3 the District Attorney's office was not investigating the Alvarez case. There is a difference between the District Attorney's office and the Riverside County Homicide Cold Case dept. If you read this completely through, it is talking about a connection to the McGowan murders in relation to my dad's murder case, if McGowan was looking into my dad's case or not. Not if the case was reopened, which it is.
http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=8766891&nav=menu191_1_1_3
Part 31: Secret Government Program Linked To Local Murders?
"Now, we are learning the murders may be a cover up for one of the federal government's most secret computer programs.
"PROMIS" is the name of one of the government's most secret computer database programs."
Dubious sources
Is there even a magazine called "TC - Technical Consultant"? I can't seem to find anything on it except for this one article in this one nov-dec 1991 issue mentioned here, and even that seems only to be on conspiracy theory websites.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Berry2k (talk) 09:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC).
- Excellent point. I too have attempted to find details surrounding TC Technical. To date, I have discovered—outside of the reference to the 1991 Nov/Dec issue—no mention anywhere of a magazine called TC Technical . Using both Yahoo and Google with parameters set for date-seeking either side of that period NOV/DEC 1991 produces zero hits. Hag2 (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Awkward (incorrect?) phrasing
What does it mean when it says that in 1995 the Senate ordered a court to do something? Congress and the Judiciary are two separate branches of government. I don't believe the Senate can order a court to do anything (although the House and Senate together can change the jurisdiction of courts). I think the author has misunderstood or misstated what happened. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.148.120.84 (talk) 15:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
The second sentence of the first paragraph is a sentence fragment!Persse O'Reilly (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- I just did some serious editing for the sake of grammar and continuity. The content has remained basically the same. I think this and related articles need more attention.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.238.27.47 (talk) 18:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC).
William Hamilton
Anyone have a wiki page for this William Hamilton. Was he mentioned as the founder before my edit? I noticed Hamilton was referenced under PROMIS contract and allegations of theft but did not see reference to him elsewhere in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.82.93 (talk) 22:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)