Talk:Dragon Skin

User "Proof"

Where is the source of the statement, "Currently, Dragon Skin is being worn by some civilian contractors in Iraq, some elite special forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, some SWAT teams, 9 generals in Afghanistan and Iraq". Where is the source, Pinnacle? If true, Generals wearing Body Armor that their troops can't get is disgraceful! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onguo2 (talk • contribs) 05:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have changed it back to what it should be. NSA, CIA, Secret Service, Generals, and elite troops all wear this armor. Sources have been provided. There are probably some troops wearing this despite army "ban", but as of now there are no solid evidence to indicate that. If you view the actual page itself and click on the numbers in the parentheses above each claim, then you will see the proof. I see you're new here. Have fun, and do good research!

edit: I have now corrected an error. there is no solid proof that generals in iraq have worn dragon skin, though it is likely. Their bodyguards, however, have worn Dragon Skin (in iraq). The source is an MSNBC report that aired on may 17. It has been provided and the article has been updated. By the way, can we please remove Evolution Armor? It's just a direct competitor to Pinnacle Armor who claims to have their own flexible rifle-defeating system and right now they're trying to leapfrog over Pinnacle due to the controversy with the military to advertise their own product. Their website is poorly made and they don't seem like a reliable and authentic company to me. I think we have to wait for a while. But, I do believe that Evolution Armor has no place on this page. I'm going to remove their link. Argue with me if you disagree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.58.165.60 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The Air Force approved the Dragonskin SOV-2000 (not the SOV-3000) for Executive Protection, meaning for use by rear echelon personnel in noncombat situations ONLY. This decision was primarily made on the basis that the SOV-2000 is the lightest and most comfortable Level III body armor currently available on the market. Since ExecProt armor is not used in combat, the Air Force felt that military grade torture testing (the kind of tests that the SOV-3000 failed) was not necessary; civilian grade testing performed by the NIJ was sufficient. The Air Force subsequently found out that Pinnacle had lied about SOV-2000 being NIJ certified, and withdrew the contract -- they claimed it was NIJ certified and it was in fact not certified at all, although the president of Pinnacle now claims he had verbal permission from the NIJ to say it was certified in advance of actual official certification. --PhoenixVTam 05:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep it in perspective

It's just an article about body armor. Whether the Wikipedia article puts it in a positive, negative, or neutral POV will not have any effect outside of Wikipedia and those who read it. So, the hostility and tempers are really pointless (and why would you feel so strongly about it unless you were part of Pinnacle, one of its competitors, or a potential user; all of which would disqualify you from being objective). If you feel strongly on this issue, I'd advise you to stick to posting verifiable facts, not claims, conclusions, or opinions. Be civil. Thanks! Bahamut0013 12:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Being a potential user would in no way 'disqualify you from being objective'. I use oxygen daily, but am fairly comfortable with my ability to discuss it objectively. 74.101.174.18 01:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I find it sad that the army puts saving money over saving lives —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.82.102 (talk) 01:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Image needed

Aside from the general POV / COI issues which are abundantly clear just from looking at the page, the lack of an image or two is a glaring omission. Are there any appropriately-licensed images which could be added? Chris Cunningham 15:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Level V - here is the wisdom

a "Level V" variant, which does not correspond to any body armor standard

This statement in the article is not true. The mere existance of Level V has been officially announced, it protects against the latest development in armour-piercing ammunitions, including tests for multi-shot protection (Level IV had single shot stopping requirement only). The exact caliber and muzzle speed of AP bullets used in Level V certification remains a military state secret of the USA, however, because the big brass do not want give free hints to the jihadists on what rifle to buy to defeat Level V body armour. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 16:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like something you pulled out of your a** in an attempt to sound like an expert. The body armor levels are CIVILIAN standards published by the Department of Justice; military body armour is designed to custom specifications specified by the military -- as a general rule, military vests are vastly more rugged (but also substantially heavier) than civilian counterparts due to the need to withstand extended use in extreme field conditions. PhoenixVTam (talk) 01:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

That is correct. First, military armour follows a different standard, NATO one (which does include more powerful threats than the ones mentioned). NIJ is for police. Second, standards are never classified, that's the whole point of them. Third, there are no "secret bullets" used for testing; armour is always tested against existing ones. CP/M ^comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 02:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Questions on Testings

"vest stopped all the bullets fired during a test" and lines like this, are all over the article, suggesting the tests STOP the bullets and ignore the actual impact damage. Do any of the documents talk about the impact and damage caused BEHIND the armour? Simply stopping a bullet isn't nearly good enough, as while you might stop the bullet you can still kill the wearer with the blunt force through the armour itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talroth (talk • contribs) 23:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

NIJ standards have a deformation requirement in ballistic clay. (40mm I believe in US, 20mm in Germany) that corresponds to the amount and distribution of force to the wearer of the armor. A bullet is not considered 'stopped' if the armor deforms too much, even if the bullet itself fails to penetrate the body. HatlessAtless (talk) 13:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Odd Phrase: "Pointed Steel Ammunition"

Under "History Channel and Discovery Channel tests" there is a reference to "pointed steel ammunition." This seems ambiguous. Are the bullets in question steel-jacketed? Did they have a steel penetrator? The phrase "pointed steel ammunition" makes it sound like solid steel projectiles with a sharp point in front, which I seriously doubt is what was meant. 0x539 (talk) 19:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV?

Most of this article reads like an advertisement for Dragon Skin. dougmc (talk) 12:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

hi

one thing that u r wrong on is that there is testing with secret ammuntions that only the millitary conduct against ammor not just body but tanks and thus forth i live near a testing place for the millitary and they test everything even bullets well more like projectiles that we probly wont seen untill were all old and senile and some kid in like 2050 would be reading this laughing. the millitary base i live close to is in tn and they mostly test top secret millitary project for aero space and flight but they do an test on ballestics too its call AEDC. well any who theres ur bit of info for the day and no i cannot tell u wat there are test cus its all hush hush all i know is that they to the testing there. and for most of the nut jobs that read this yes i may have miss spelled somthings on here but owell i have better things to do with my time besides try to tell someone how to spell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.166.204.32 (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

What the hell did you just say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.230.191.51 (talk) 01:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)