Talk:Reconquista (Mexico)

This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

POV

Okay, if it's not VfD material, it certainly needs sourcing and a more neutral tone. It should have gotten a POV tag as soon as it came from VfD. If no one else does it, I'll gladly rewrite it to say "Some damned gringo conspiracy theory about how dark people are taking over. Typical honky bull." That should move the ball into someone else's court. That this kind of tone should persist here is unacceptable. --Diderot 17:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I decided not to wait. The article now treats the whole idea as a load of crap. I expect to see documentary evidence to the contrary if the original claims are to be restored. --Diderot 18:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Really

I don't know, it seems to me that the article states the facts and does not argue one way or the other. Yes, there is a conspiracy theory, and yes, that is how anglo settlers initially took over much of the land on this side of the United States.

This Article is a Political Sermon

The bias of the article is obvious. It is not a statement of fact but an editorial. Both the article and statements made about it show the desire of people to have their opinions viewed as facts. At university campuses this trend is seen in the classroom where professors who view themselves as wise lecture their students in viewpoints and college-level courses serve as indoctrination sessions. A person who agrees with an author's viewpoint will call an article objective, while those who disagree will see it as propaganda. The article under discussion is clearly intended to convey a viewpoint to the readers. I wonder how much information in textbooks--including that which I was taught and believe--is really mere arguement of authors disguised as revelation.

Additionally

This ostensible plan of conquest is rife with hints of sexual repression and racism on the part of those who believe in it. '

Oh? How does the writer know what those who have beared witness to the Reconquista movement think or 'feel?" And how is this supposedly factual?

This article is crap. Period. But it serves the following purpose: it allows legal aliens and citizens to see the mindset of socialist "revolutionaries" in action. And the latter are damned fools.

Article seems fine as it is

This article is about a ridiculous belief held by a few grossly misinformed people. It does a good job of explaining what the belief is and where it might have come from. I would be for the deletion of this article if I wasn't worried it would show up under a different title with a few users trying to justify how ludicrous the whole notion is. Because of that I think the article should stay as it is and be protected. Mosquito-001 21:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Fixed the article on 1/13/06 to be more npov. Many people do not hold this belief, "some" do. It should also be mentioned what the majority of the public thinks of extreme groups that hold this belief. Mosquito-001 20:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Racism is growing dramatically in the latino movement

I recently graduated from college and not only did I have friends in Mecha but also family members. The reconquista movement is real, though it is not well organized. It is really more at the idea stage of it's development.They are often much more honest in private, and talk about "taking over" America in the future when more hispanics are in the US. Mecha members do believe that europeans are foreign invaders and that they should be driven out, but they lack the political, military and economic skills to do it. If you don't believe it, go to a Mecha website and read their words. In my opinion, they are the latino equivalent of the KKK as they are largely driven by hatred of what they preceive as anyone of European decent. The funny thing about this hatred, to me, is that most hispanics would rather live with gabachos in the US, than with their "own" countrymen at home- which has always made me wonder: if they do take over the US will they do a better job here than the one they did in their own homelands?

The issue that really isn't dealt with in America is that many races have racist groups that negatively impact our society, and Mecha is one of those groups. Members of Mecha, and similar groups, don't need to meet in dark rooms in the middle of the night to formulate kooky conspiracies, because they can do it in broad daylight on any university class in America without any concern that their racist views will be challanged. And like all racist groups, they hold can only talk about some "great" society that supposedly existed hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Europeans, and that includes the spanish ancestors of most mecha members, did come to the "new world" and exploit, murder, etc. the indigenous peoples. But that has been acknowledged in countless books, movies, college classes, etc, so much so that basically everyone takes it as truth. It's time to move on, because these things cannot be changed or undone, and quite frankly many Mecha members should embrace this since their spanish ancestors did a great deal of the murdering and raping. The Mexican people who live in the US ARE MIGRANTS, as their ancestors did not live on the great plains or the pacific northwest. They were inhabitants of Mexico and Central America. And the only reason they really come here is because their democratically elected governments have failed, so they come to land of the gabacho where they can live and raise families without fear of the corrupt governments they created.

Excuse me, I can't help noticing that while you insist on spreading such hateful views and deleting content on the article page AND discussion page, you don't sign your posts. Mosquito-001 19:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Now this is my post, How would such a movement take place? There are many different ethnicities that exist among the Hispanic "people" and wildly varying levels of English and Spanish proficiency. I just can't see the kind of organized movement forming that racist groups believe is happening. I am of mexican american decent, myself, and I have not once been invited to a meeting in the middle of the night, inside a dimly lit room, to discuss the reconquista conspiracy with other hispanics. No hispanic person I've talked to, that does not study hate groups, even knows of this weird conspiracy. So with all that said, I'm finding it really hard to believe that a few members of these racist/nativist hate groups have gained entrance to these reconquista meetings and are ready to blow the lid off the "movement." At any rate, due to the extreme amount of intermarriage between Caucasion and hispanic people, it would seem such a movement would be extremely hard to keep secret.Mosquito-001 19:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced material

• Some groups, that many would categorize as "hate" groups, believe that Mecha, as well as similar groups, intentionally mislead the general public on this subject because the group realizes that they would lose popular support from the general public for such bizarre position. Opponents point out that any Mecha web site clearly states removing, what Mecha members refer to as, foreign invaders or "gabachos"(people of european decent)from the Americas as a central goal. Mecha also refers to the Americas as the "bronze continent," which is clearly a designation refering to the long history of the Hispanic people in America. This upsets many "nativist" groups in the United States. Curiously, these "nativist" groups are almost exclusively made up of those of "white" protestant descent. The Mexican Government has denied any territorial claims. The conspiracy of the reconquista bears many similarites to the way the American West was "tamed" during the 1800's. Many of those involved in civil rights surmise that the reconquista conspiracy is fueled by an irrational fear, on the part of many white "rights" groups, of the growing number of "minorities" in the United States and that history will be repeated with the "minorities taking over."

This text has no sources to support it, and makes a number of POV claims. I've removed it until we can find references to cite. -Will Beback 23:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

AfD

There is no source for this material. In my research using Mexican-American primary sources, I have found only one document that used the word "reconquista" in the context referred to in the article. The reality is that the word "reconquista" is primarily used by alarmists, who employ it to sensationalize what most people see as simply a gradual demographic shift. If it sourced this right-wing material, much of which is available on the web, I might consider voting against its deletion. But as it stands, I think the article ought to be deleted. It is written from a POV, unsourced, and only marginally important, as the anti-illegal immigration movement is at best third-rail issue in American politics. If no one objects soon, I'll tag it for deletion.--Rockero420 23:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The illegal immigration issue is anything but a third rail of American politics. State legislatures across the country are enacting or debating laws to control the spread of illegals. The US House of Representatives passed a bill last month to curb illegals. A recent CBS poll showed that 80% of Americans, that's republicans and democrats, are tired of the drain on local economies that illegal aliens represent. Proposition 200 in Arizona was sponsored by a supporter of Ralph Nader, it overwelmingly passed. Americans are tired of footing the bill for mexico's failures.

I object to this article being deleted. The only ones who oppose it's presence seem to be Mecha members or supporters (misquito & rockero). If it is deleted it will not be because it is false or misleading.

I agree this debate over the article has gone on for too long. It's basically an article about a conspiracy theory, with very little evidence, that was started to accuse a Mexican American civil rights organization of racism and many other baseless claims. I've deleted all references to MECHA and I've left in controversial groups. If those who keep editing this article keep refusing to cite which "groups" or "some people" keep making these claims, the accusations will be deleted.Mosquito-001 23:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Enough of the talk here's the truth which is available to anybody at any mecha website:

It is laughable that anyone, except mecha members, believe that mecha is anything but a racist organization. I think it just goes to show that no matter how educated you are, racism runs to the bone. Thank you rockero for restoring misquitos posts, but not restoring the ones I wrote which misquito deleted. Your "objectivity" is noted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.988.733 (talk • contribs)

I'm having a hard time finding anything in that plan that is expressly racist. It actually lists various grievances that the organization had against those that would oppress them which considering the time period, the 1960s, is very understandable. BTW shouldn't this be on the MECHA page instead of the reconquista page?Mosquito-001 01:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Suprise, suprise. Classifying all "white" people as foreign invaders isn't racist? Calling them racially motivated names like "gabacho" and "gringo" isn't racist? I bet you would feel differently if someone was calling you a racist name like "beaner" or "wetback." There is a double standard.

"El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán" never uses the word "reconquista". It calls for the creation of a political party, not for the military re-conquest of the SW U.S. by Mexico. Where does "reconquista" appear in print? What are our sources? -[[User:Will

Beback|Will Beback]] 19:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Where do the words "right to privacy" appear in the constitution? They don't, but they can be infered from the text. If you refer to all "europeans" as foreign invaders and you talk about your races duty to "reclaim" the land from the foreign invaders it is no stretch to infer what the point of it is. I first heard the word reconquista at a Mecha meeting at my college, and it was used by Mecha members to remind their members that this was not the "Americans" lands, it belong to the "indigenous" peoples and one day they would take it back. If you are unaware of the extreme racist elements within Mecha, then you are out of the loop (either that or you support their position.) I never said it would be a military conquest, hell, I think our common citizens could defeat the Mexican army. What I believe, and what Mecha teaches, is that people from Mexico do not have to follow our laws because this is not our land- it is theirs. This is why they support illegal immigration so strongly, they want as many of what they see as "their people" to come here so that they can gain electoral majorities and influence our elections (which they already do to a certain extant).

I think it is silly for one reason- it doesn't even begin to address why they really come here: their corrupt democratically elected governments have failed them. But it allows them to do what all racists do: focus on the boogeymen. The boogeyman in this case is "whitey," "cracker," "gabacho," or whatever. Whitey is the foreign invader that must be driven out to purify the land. It's assine, but stupid people follow stupid ideas. I'm part hispanic, but I don't need false pride in my race to feel good about myself. I want an America of laws. Our ancestors all came here for pretty much the same reason: the place where they were living were screwed up, and that hasn't changed. People who come here to break the laws ruin our country, because that unwillingness to follow laws is exactly what screwed up the country where they came from.

I'm not really surprised that you focus in on those words yet skip right over the part where various grievances are discussed. However, I can see how taking those words out of context and ignoring the crimes that are discussed in the "plan" can lead one to believe that it is nothing more than hate speech. BTW using four consecutive tildes, after you are signed in, will automatically sign your post for you. I recommend going back and doing this to all your posts because it is really hard for other users to tell if they are talking to the same person or someone just jumping into the discussion. Thank you.Mosquito-001 19:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

YOU HAVE NO GREIVANCE. There were no crimes committed against you. MECHA HAS NO GREIVANCE. there were no crimes comitted against mecha members. But I can guarantee YOUR ancestors committed crimes against the indigenous peoples of Mexico, central america and south america if you have any Mexican ancestory. It was your ancestors who came to the Americas from Spain with their Roman Catholicism and their spanish language to murder rape and plunder the new world. Your ancestors destroyed the aztecs. Your greivance is with your own flesh and blood, you just don't like to hear it. If you want to change the world apologize for your ancestors war crimes and begin a new life, but don't lecture me about it from a hypocritical point of view.

Right now we're just giving our own opinions here. Without sources we don't have anything that can be put in the article. If we can't find sources for MECha using the term, maybe we can find sources for American Patrol using the term. If we can't find any sources at all, then we should just delete the article. -Will Beback 01:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoever you are, I find your hate for a group of people absolutely disturbing. I really did want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You could have edited the article in a useful manner and named which groups accuse Mecha of this belief, you could have signed your posts, and you could have engaged in a civil discussion on the talk page but you didn't. Instead we end up with an anonymous user who is on a personal crusade against civil rights groups. Seriously let go of the hate dude. It's not good for you.Mosquito-001 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Just an fyi skeeter, nobody but you thinks that mecha is a civil rights organization. They are racist. You may be able to control what is said on this page, but people across this country are catching on to what mecha, and similar groups, are really all about. There was a trickle of reporting about it in the last election cycle. I saw reports on CNN, FOX, CBS and NBC where people were getting the word out about Mecha, and you won't stop that. Mecha can't hide in the shadows anymore and spew their racial hatred in secret.Like the KKK, mechas racist positions will be it's downfall. Don't get sucked into it skeeter, I'll be praying for you.

Got any sources bob or just the voices coming through your tinfoil hood? So you've "seen reports?" That's cool, you must have links to reports about the reconquista from reputable mainstream news outlets? Right? You also seem very knowledgable about Mecha so I can't help but wonder why you don't move on over to the Mecha wiki.Mosquito-001 03:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources proving existence of reconquista movement

www.aztlan.net Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland' By The Associated Press Republica del NorteALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico. Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.” Truxillo, 47, has said the new country should be brought into being “by any means necessary,”

Here's another source: A breakaway of U.S. states is a distinct possibility, according to prominent Chicano activist and University of California at Riverside professor Armando Navarro. In an interview with WorldNetDaily, Navarro would not answer directly whether he shared separatist aspirations, but said that if demographic and social trends continue, secession is inevitable. "A secessionist movement is not something that you can put away and say it is never going to happen in the United States," he continued. "Time and history change."

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants...of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth.. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans.

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation.

Bustamante Won't Renounce Ties to Chicano Student Group Thursday, August 28, 2003

LOS ANGELES — California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante (search), the grandson of Mexican immigrants who counts improving race relations among his biggest pursuits, refused Thursday to renounce his past ties to a little-known Hispanic organization considered by critics to be as racist as the Ku Klux Klan. MEChA has used violence in the past to make its case. At a July 4 celebration in 1996, members of the group, who call themselves Mechistas, were videotaped attacking black and white Americans protesting illegal immigration. In 1993, students at UCLA caused $500,000 worth of damage during protests to demand a Chicano studies department. MEChA has also been associated with anti-Semitic groups like Nation of Aztlan. MEChA's motto is "for the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing." Critics say affiliation with that kind of group could spell political ruin for a white candidate and are upset that little attention has been paid to Bustamante's relationship with the group. He belonged to MEChA while attending Fresno State University in the 1970s. According to the organization's constitution, "Chicanas and Chicanos must ... politicize our Raza [race] ... and struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan."

Aztlan (search) is the area that is currently the southwest United States, but Mechistas claim Aztlan is their homeland to be returned to Mexico and the group says white Americans who currently govern these areas must be removed from power.

"What is a moderate member of a racist organization? 'I was a moderate member of the Klan.' Imagine if a Republican made that statement," Elder said.

"I think he should answer for his membership in the group," said syndicated columnist Michelle Malkin. "I think he needs to explain why he has not disassociated himself from a group that is violent, which has caused riots on campus and which has preached anti-Semitism and anti-black ideology."

This can be found at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) website under Nation of Aztlan: Introduction

The Nation of Aztlan (NOA), first organized in the early 1990s, is a California-based Hispanic nationalist organization that claims to represent the desires and aspirations of the Hispanic community. The organization calls for the United States to return "Aztlan" territory - Aztlan being the mythic homeland of the Mexican people, or Aztecs, which according to legend is found in the American Southwest or Northern Mexico. The group's nationalist message is blurred by frequent appeals anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, homophobia and other expressions of hatred.Hispanic rights activists revived the story of Aztlan in the 1960s. Beyond a mere physical site, Aztlan has become a metaphor for the geographic, historical and spiritual home of many indigenous people in the Southwest. The NOA seeks to create a separate nation in the area now "occupied" roughly by California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

The Sierra Times had a quote from a member of MEChA:

“Asked about his group’s ideology and intentions, Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge’s MEChA chapter replied: “The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlán. Communism would be closest [to it].” Once Aztlán is established, continued Perez, ethnic cleansing would commence: “Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power.”

There is ample evidence not only for the continued existence of this article, but an expansion of it's origins and detailed information on it's supporters.

four tildes in a row, it's not that hard Mosquito-001 17:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Uages of the term "reconquista" still needs a source. The Miguel Perez quote has often been copied onto websites, but no original source is given, so it is dubious. -Will Beback 20:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)