Talk:Rationales provided by advocates of the impeachment of George W. Bush/Archive 3

POV rant

This entire article is nothing more than an Original Research, POV rant and should be deleted. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.85.195.227 (talk • contribs)

I just saw a program on TV (C-SPAN perhaps. I didn't notice.) with a panel that included Congress members, John Dean (of Watergate fame), and others debating the impeachment of Bush. This is real and gonna get realer. WAS 4.250 00:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree - this piece is nearly exclusively POV, and as a result, has no place on Wikipedia. Mhking 02:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly these comments are based upon opinions that were formed without reading the provided sources. Too bad. Nomen Nescio 02:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You want discussion? No problem. All of the sources cited are POV sources that have a proven anti-Bush bias. As a result, they have no place on Wikipedia. There are certainly empirical resources out there (including stories in the past week of an entire town in Vermont which passed a resolution calling for the President's impeachment), but those are what belong there -- not POV blogs and other opinion-driven pieces. I would strongly ask that a POV warning be attached to this article, barring it's complete rewriting to reflect a NPOV. Mhking 02:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on why analysis by lawyers is POV? Have you read the sources? Nomen Nescio 02:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Counterpunch, The Nation, CommonDreams, Democracy Now, The Center for American Progress, AlterNet, Human Rights Watch, TruthOut, IPS News, the Global Policy Forum, Human Rights First, Tom Dispatch, and the several blogs you have cited are all opinion-based sources that do not offer empirical news, and have a demonstrated bias against Bush, his administration and his policies. In addition, many of the mainstream newspaper sources you cite are opinion-based or editorial articles that, once again, do not cite empirical news, but provide the opinion of the writer. Now, that being said, NONE of those sources have any place in an article that seeks to be NPOV. I placed the {{bias}} tag at the top to request third parties to look at the piece and to provide their opinion. You, by reverting the tag, are hampering that process. Mhking 02:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that because the articles are not written by FOX News they are POV? And do you claim that since the articles are published by sites you claim are POV the legal analysts are not trustworthy? Nomen Nescio

No, I am saying that because they are opinion-driven articles, as opposed to news or non-opinion-driven pieces, that they have no place here. For each charge, there are certainly right-wing counterpoints out there, but those have no place on Wikipedia either. They should not have POV bias in any way, shape or form. You have 60-some-odd sources, and more than 2/3 of those are opinion-driven. Mhking 03:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect, please see Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles and WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial,

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

Nomen Nescio 03:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ with you -- would you be opposed to a third party (or parties) looking at it and providing input? Mhking 03:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

If you feel the need to ask for RFC, please do. However, if it is possible to discuss the matter and try to resolve it between us it would be better. Nomen Nescio 03:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned initially, I've got no problem with citing non-POV sources in this piece - I cannot deny that there have been calls for Bush's impeachment; but the overwhelming preponderance of POV-driven sources is what I take offense to here. There are plenty of places to cheerlead for or against Bush or anyone else's political agenda on the Internet. This should not be one of them. Mhking 03:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to add other comments. As to POV or NPOV, that is not about discrediting sources. Opinion is allowed, as long as it is evident that it is opinion. NPOV only means that "All significant points of view are presented." Anyway, let's wait and see what others think. Nomen Nescio 03:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reality

The reality, beyond any spin, is that the President has acted in ways that have caused people to say he should be impeached. Among these realities are the questionable wiretappings inside the United States, the invasion of Iraq based on lies, his refuting the Geneva Conventions and federal law relating to torture (a federal crime with no time limit), his extraordinary rendition of prisoners (torture by proxy), his illegal treatment of prisoners (detainees), his gross negligence in the Hurricane Katrina disaster, his participation in the leaking of classified information to cover up his invasion of Iraq lies, and all manner of accusations of abuse of power. WAS 4.250 03:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reality or not, in this case, is immaterial. Opinion-driven pieces do not belong on Wikipedia. Mhking 03:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

More to the point, are the accusations incorrect. Did the administration misrepresent the cause for war? Have detainees been tortured? Was Katrina horribly mishandeld? Does this administration assert broad war powers? In other words, are these allegations not based upon fact? Nomen Nescio 03:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

What does "Opinion-driven pieces do not belong on Wikipedia" mean? Shall we delete God? WAS 4.250 14:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia description: "An NPOV (neutral, unbiased) article is an article that has been written without showing a stand on the issue at hand. This is especially important for the encyclopedia's treatment of controversial issues, in which very often there is an abundance of differing views and criticisms on the subject. In a neutral representation, the differing points of view are presented as such, not as facts." The assertations here are presented as defacto fact, and not represented as the opinion of the writer. As I mentioned, my problem is that opinion is being presented as fact. Mhking 16:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are saying that the contents itself is correct but it should be better shown that it is not fact but opinion, feel free to show here what sentences you refer to. Furthermore, if you make suggestions how to improve these sentences to NPOV standard progress and have a constructive debate. Thank you. Nomen Nescio 17:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Rfc

I've come here via the Rfc. First off, I dislike President Bush and think that he has abused the power of the Executive branch. Despite my personal feelings, however, I think that certain passages of this article are not neutral point of view as written. Language needs to be inserted into some passages that indicates that certain points are merely alleged by critics. As a whole, however, the article is extremely well-sourced with verifiable sources that have presented the various rationales. This fact makes it difficult to claim no original research, Wikipedia is not a soapbox, or Wikipedia is not a crystal ball violations. That said, editors of this article should remain vigilant to ensure that this article continues to adhere to these policies and NPOV. - Jersyko·talk 03:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reading the edit comments I feel that Mhking thinks that NPOV means no biased sources. This is not correct, it only means that different views must be presented and the reader can decide what to think of it. See WP:NPOV:

• The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

Feel free to read about Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles:

• An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.

Nomen Nescio 16:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Similarity of 2 pages

I just somewhere saw these 2 pages:

Movement to impeach George W. Bush

Rationale to impeach George W. Bush

What is the difference between the two? Is there one or is it just a double? --Jared ^[T]/_[+] 20:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Good question - I note that a number of text-items have been moved to this page from that one. Is there any logical reason for that, other than to move this part of the discussion away from the original page? Mhking 22:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It is wikipedia policy to start a subpage when an article is getting too long. One might debate whether including this in the original makes it too long. But I felt that this page, with the numerous sources which are necessary to address the invalid criticism by some editors, would make the original beyond acceptable. Furthermore, it is evident that discussing the movement is entirely different from discussing the reasons to impeach. Nomen Nescio 11:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I see. Thanks --J@red ^[T]/_[+] 14:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversial tag

I put that at the top in order to make certain that there are not wholesale pages (blanking of entire sections or otherwise) without conversation here. As on the other page, however, the inclusion of blog-material is definitely suspect. While some of the opinion-driven sections have been identified as such, others have not. Mhking 22:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Please show what sentence is solely based upon blogs. As I asked earlier, if you feel a sentence is POV discuss it here and suggest improvement. To simply state the article is POV without substantiating your assertion is not constructive. Nomen Nescio 11:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Case-in-point -- your reference #6 (Wiretapping probably impeachable offense): Each of the references cited are from opinion-based articles, yet the paragraph where that citation is presented is not presented as an "opinion." Please keep in mind that I understand and appreciate that this is a subset of the other article (Movement to impeach George W. Bush), but an encyclopedic article would not contain references of that sort without indicating that they are someone's opinion as opposed to presenting those items as empirical fact. Your personal jibe regarding Fox News the other day implies that a conservative point of view that is also presented as opinion in this same context (in your estimation) is invalid. Please do not misunderstand me -- my point is that this is not a soapbox, and should not be used as a bully pulpit to only present one side of the equation. I -- admittedly -- am not as well-versed or well-researched as you are in terms of specific articles (one problem is that time is at an extreme premium for me present), but that is no reason not to indicate opinions as just that: opinions, not facts. Mhking 14:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The NFSA is a law that was passed by Congress, not an opinion. Let's keep that straight, alright? Kevin Baas^talk 16:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I have no problem with that. There must be some articles that are not opinion-based that cite that, yes? Mhking 22:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If I understand correctly Mhking is talking about:

Such critics therefore believe that since the claimed legal authority is invalid, FISA has been violated, constituting a felony and as such an impeachable offense. (emphasis added)

To me the sentence starts with mentioning this is what critics believe. What part of this do you refer to when saying: "references of that sort without indicating that they are someone's opinion as opposed to presenting those items as empirical fact?" Nomen Nescio 23:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Slightly altered the sentence. Nomen Nescio 23:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

(re your most recent edit) Thank you. Yes, I'm being almost dense about it (admittedly). And yes, I'm probably more sensitive than most about it as someone who is admittedly libertarian (little "l"; though Bush has pissed me off royally of late), and more supportive of the Bush Administration than most. I've just been asking for some even-handedness and fairness overall - nothing more. Mhking 23:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If the current version is acceptable can you show another example? As you see, I am willing to discuss if you explain what the exact problem is. This is more constructive don't you think? Sincerely Nomen Nescio 00:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem - it will take me a bit of time (as I said earlier, time for me is at a premium these days), but I'll be happy to point others out. (case in point -- with the severe weather here in the southeast, my time tonight is about shot to hell) And yes, I agree that this is far more constructive. I've had less luck with that approach elsewhere on Wikipedia. Mhking 00:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Since the contents is no longer disputed and Mhking is working to resolve what is left of possible ambiguous sentences I will remove the POV tag.No major claim of POV remains AFAIK. Nomen Nescio 12:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina

I removed a section on Hurricane Katrina, see this diff. The source cited did not mention Katrina once; indeed it is an article solely about Iraq and related disputes. If a credible source can be provided describing Bush's Katrina response as grounds for impeachment, feel free to re-add the section. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with the above - there's a vast gulf between an inept response and an impeachable offense. The things that have been bandied about are Iraq, wiretapping, and (if you ask Pat Buchanan) immigration policy. BDAbramson T 05:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Oddly enough, a 5 minute search on google resulted in numerous articles asking for impeachment following Katrina. So I restored it with sources. Whether the call to impeach is warranted is another matter. Feel free to add comments dismissing Katrina, or any other argument, as grounds for impeachment. Nomen Nescio 11:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I didn't find any sources I considered credible...all those seem like online-only magazines. I don't think such sources improve the image of the project. However, at least there is now some mention of Katrina as grounds. Christopher Parham (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of powers

I noticed this entry was changed:

These have been used to justify the aforementioned policies. In effect, this is about assertions of inherent power in the executive to override constitutional, international, congressional limitations, and judicial limitations.

I am confused. What part of the sentence is incorrect or not substantiated by sources? Nomen Nescio 16:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• What is the sentence even supposed to mean? It seems to me that the question is whether Bush's actions have overridden such limitations -- crticis argue that they have and do, while supporters argue that Bush's actions were within whatever limitations exist. I rewrote the section to attribute the two views to the two parties, which the sentence above does not do. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Then the question is what limitations exist? Some would argue that the consitution grants all power to the executive, and america is based on rule of person, rather than rule of law. Others would argue the contrary. That is the main controversy, when you remove all the specious rhetoric. The constitution is pretty clear tho, so i have no idea how we can derive the case of the administration from their presumed source of authority. Kevin Baas^talk 18:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

FISA

Clearly Bush's supporters and critics are in disagreement on whether he had violated the law, and nobody who is in a position to deliver an authoritative statement (i.e. a court of law) has ruled on the issue to my knowledge. So it seems inappropriate to record the statement as undisputed fact; instead I have attributed it specifically to his critics. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Bush's supporters, in congress at least, seem to be in agreement that he violated the FISA law. They argue that as commander in cheif, the president has the constitutional authority to break laws. In addition, the FISA law is very simply: domestic wiretaps = get a warrant from the secret court. (<-notice the period) when "domestic wiretaps" is not equal to "get a warrant from the secret court", thermodynamic equilibrium is broken, and the system bifurcates into rule of law or rule of men. what's at issue is not whether it's against the law, anymore than whether 2+2=4 is in question. what's at issue is whether it's important that 2+2 make 4, as opposed to say 6 or 9. Kevin Baas^talk 20:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anything's at issue besides who says what, and how we can best represent those statements here. Anyway, take a look at it now and see what you think. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

hmm.. talking about who says what (it's important what the law says too, so many we should cite that?), didn't congress ask the federal government committee responsible for asking these questions, and didn't they give an answer? That's a pretty fricking authorative source, eh? Who can find it first? Kevin Baas^talk 21:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, i think it's beauutifull! I want to do carnal things with it. (sorry, i'm in a silly mood. honestly, i think it's great.) Kevin Baas^talk 21:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is unreasonable to suggest that only after a judge has ruled we can say FISA was violated. Example: if I steal a DVD I violate the law, no judge is needed to say that. Your argument is that a criminal that is not convicted by a judge has not violated the law. Or better yet: a criminal is he who gets caught (convicted). An odd statement to say the least. Clearly, the President has violated FISA, and all legal analysis to date says the same: this program is not compatible with US law. However, the administration has suggested arguments for why violating FISA in this case would be legal. The question is not whether FISA was violated, but if that is legal. Nomen Nescio 23:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In this case you are incorrect. In the United States the presumption of innocence is one of the hallmarks of our legal system. If you steal a DVD you are not guilty of violating any laws until you have been found guilty by a court of law. Likewise, the POTUS is not guilty of violating FISA until some authoritative body has concluded so.---RWR8189 23:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying anybody is guilty. But your position is that without a judge and jury no crime can be committed. Tell that to victims of the violators of the law that were not apprehended. So, as long as nobody catches the criminals these victims were not murdered, not stolen from, not raped, et cetera. No judge, no crime. Nomen Nescio 00:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the DVD bit is a rather false analogy...however, your point is correct in that the argument is not about whether the text of the FISA was violated/"circumvented" but rather whether the law applies at all. I'm not sure that "violated" is the best term to use since presumably if the law did not apply in the first place, it was not violated -- but I can't think of any particular phrasing that would be more neutral. Anyway, so long as the passage sets out clearly from the outset that there is a dispute over whether the action was illegal I think it is fine. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Nomen Nescio 00:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

We live in a system of tripartite governmental authority. Currently, the excutive branch is controlled by Bush. It's Bush's position that FISA is trumped by his authority over international issues / national security, in that, he contends that it was international calls relating to national security which were monitored. Whether you agree with that position or not, it is true that under our Constitution, each of the three branches do have some areas of exclusive purview. Bush contends that this is one of the executive branch's such areas. For you to conclude that he is wrong, you are taking sides against him and are being POV. Bush's position is that FISA in this instance, exceeds its authority under the Consitution in that in passing it, Congress has stepped into an area of exclusive presidential authority. Simply put, the President asserts that beyond keeping Congress informed - which he did, he is not bound to obey FISA in these instances and FISA unconstitutionally constricts presidential power and hence, attempting to obey it in these instances, would violate his oath and duties as president. It is a forceful assertion of presidential perogative, but one that does not on its face have any evidence of mens rea attached. That being the case, there is no prima facia case that a crime has been committed. This FISA twist is merely an attempt by the Democrats and their allies to misuse the impeachment process for political gain. Merecat 11:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Odd statement: "an attempt by the Democrats and their allies to misuse the impeachment process for political gain." Wasn't there a time a certain political party hounded a President for cheating on his wife and trying to conceal that? Nomen Nescio 12:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed there was. And the fact that you throw that in my face, even though I have nothing to do with that, suggests that you are trying to turn this page into a battleground, which you should not be doing - see WP:NOT. Merecat 12:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you feel offended and I apologize for that. But all I wanted to do is show you that the argument is flawed. If you accuse Democrats of partisan actions, you should say the same of the Republicans in the Clinton impeachment. Furthermore, contrary to the Clinton case, we now have several actions that at least warrant further investigations, as they might be impeachable offences. To dismiss any inquiry is premature, nobody really knows if a case can be made. That is why investigation is needed, but for some strange reason even that is impossible and considered partisan. Nomen Nescio 12:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

This particular article is about Bush, not Clinton. Please stay on topic. Merecat 04:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Please stop trolling. Kevin Baas^talk 15:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Forgive the trolling remark. It's how I felt but does not neccessarily reflect the nature of your actions. I apologize. Now back to this long heated argument that isn't really about the content of the page...

You said "It's Bush's position that FISA is trumped by his authority over international issues / national security, in that, he contends that it was international calls relating to national security which were monitored." By using a grammatical conjunction, you stated two separate positions as one. The first position was that a person's "authority" trump a "law". However, the American government is to put it in the words of one of its founders "a government of laws and not of men". And the president must operate within the law just as much as a bum on the street, regardless of what the situation might be. There are laws that enable him to act as he needs to in emergency situations. Laws are written carefully so as not to to impede them. For instance, with FISA, one does not need to obtain a warrant before wiretapping domestic calls. One can wiretap and then obtain a warrant after the fact. In any case, in america therei is no "authority" that trumps laws, on any account.

Regarding the second position, wherein bush claims that it was international calls. If the wiretaps did not fall under the scope of FISA, it would be a non-issue. IT is an issue. what he claims is not what's important in determining the legitimacy, but what he does, what is known to have been done. and it is known that domestic calls were wiretapped wihout warrants. So neither position holds. Kevin Baas^talk 17:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

regarding bush's interpretation of the constitution - it is the exclusive right and duty for the supreme court to check and balance other branches by deciding whether a law is unconstitutional when a particular case involving the law is brought to their court. It is a judicial power, not an executive one. Kevin Baas^talk 17:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Kevin, as politely as I can say this, I'll simply say that you are misinformed regarding the power of the president in regards to this FISA/terrorist wire tap issue. Please read this [1]. Pay careful attention to this:

Chairman Specter: I think the thrust of what you are saying is the President is bound by statute like everyone else unless it impinges on his constitutional authority, and a statute cannot take away the President's constitutional authority. Anybody disagree with that?

[No response.]

Chairman Specter: Everybody agrees with that.

Merecat 02:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Consider this:

• As to the administration's statutory argument in support of the NSA operation, Kris, an expert on FISA, was clearly not persuaded.[2]
• In a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the secretive court, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, several former judges who served on the panel also voiced skepticism at a Senate hearing about the president's constitutional authority to order wiretapping on Americans without a court order.[3]
• One of the witnesses expected to testify, David Kris, is a former Associate Deputy Attorney General at the Department of Justice, where he handled national security issues. In an internal e-mail exchange that was released through a Freedom of Information Act request, he stated, "Claims that FISA simply requires too much paperwork or the bothersome marshaling of arguments seem relatively weak justifications for resorting to 'constitutional powers' in violation of the statute." He added that he did "not think Congress can be said to have authorized the NSA surveillance" via the authorization for military force in Afghanistan. "Many legal and security experts have rejected the administration's claims that the warrantless NSA eavesdropping program was both legal and necessary," said Lisa Graves, ACLU Senior Counsel for Legislative Strategy.[4]

Nomen Nescio 17:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

"End Notes" style of links reduces readability

As per this message left for Jimbo, I am deeply troubled by the "end notes" style of links in this article. I am convinced that this style of external links is degrading the quality of the wiki. Merecat 08:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

First, this is rather harsh, you might have suggested improvemnent on the talkpage before making this statement, Second, every reference the article points you to (when more than one is available) supports the same information, there are multiple sources for one statement to address the assertions of POV-NOR-RS-et cetera, which have now even resulted in the AfD tag without even discussing the alleged POV. Nomen Nescio 11:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Huh? My comment is a suggestion, yes? I feel that it is. Merecat 11:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"I am deeply troubled," to me does have a different connotation than,"could you redo the notes for the following reasons?" Beyond that, placing a comment on Jimbo's page is also a rather "enthousiastic" move. Nomen Nescio 11:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel you are being overly and needlessly critical of me on a personal basis. Please stop. Merecat 11:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Have explicitly identified who says what. Hope this satisfies those editors fearing the possible ambiguity. Nomen Nescio 16:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am stating that accessing sources for verification is more clumsy with the style of end-note links used in this article, in my opinion. Also, Nescio, please remove the Netherlands flag from your signature - it slows down page loads. Sometimes the .svg file for that does not load promptly and the whole page slows down. Please consider this. Merecat 16:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

end notes is standard policy. if you dont like it, discuss it on the policy page (admittedly i don't know where it is) that svg is tiny, you've got to be kidding! Kevin Baas^talk 17:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

Could those that insist the article is POV at least point out what sentence exactly is POV? In other words, please discuss in stead of asserting. Furthermore, how does one make an article about certain political views NPOV?. Nomen Nescio 13:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I already asked for this at Merecat's talk, if he doesn't respond in 24 hours or so I'd say remove the tag. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Please see a nice list of POV complaints here. Merecat 18:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked through that page thoroughly, and, ignoring for a moment that that the content of that page is not on this one, I did not find any statements on that page pointing out what sentence is POV, or even refering to any content at all, for that matter. I don't think you understand what you are being asked here. We are not looking for broad accusations. I can arbitrarily assert that the Mathematics article is POV, but that assertion doesn't really do anyone any good. It is just as easy to make broad accusations about one article as any other, and it is as useless as it is easy. The tag itself is a broad assertion, and any broad assertions/accusations in addition to it are completely redundant. One might just as well post a hundered copies of the tag on the talk page. But you see the point is that that's completely meaningless. What sentence, in what paragraph, is inherently POV? What makes it POV? Is there a word or grammar problem? Is it missing a citation? How would you suggest one make it NPOV? Kevin Baas^talk 19:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In fairness, see below. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I see exactly one specific complaint (made by a number of people) about the article -- that its title is inappropriate. So let's work on that, and then the tag can be removed. BDAbramson suggested Rationales provided by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush; how do people feel about that? It is a little ugly but seems to get the point across. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... this is a tough question. I think the current title is a fairly good title given all the possibilities, but that's not to say there can't be a better one - just that it will be more difficult to find. Consider for example a few titles that might be considered shorter and/or simpler versions of the title above suggested: "Arguments for impeach...", "Why people want to impeach..." - this is too editorial and informal - not titles for an encyclopedia, and "arguments" make it like a debate, when really it is legal grounds. However, "Grounds for impeachment..." seems to sound too strong. The word "Rationale" is, i think, a word that captures all the nuances very well; it's well suited. It says "This is their way of thinking", and "This is what leads them to their conclusion", and "This is why people say this should happen".

Rationale: 1. Fundamental reasons; the basis. 2. An exposition of principles or reasons.

All these things considered, the long and unweildy title suggested above seems to me to be the leading alternative right now. Kevin Baas^talk 19:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the main change that needs to occur is that the new title needs to attribute the rationale to the people who are doing the advocacy; without such the article appears to be coming from thin air, or the rationales seems to be the work of Wikipedia editors. (Also changed rationale-->rationales to emphasize that the reasons come from diverse sources and are not held in common.) Another suggestion: Rationales provided by advocates of the impeachment of George W. Bush. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Call me stupid, but how many people opposing impeachment advance a rationale to impeach? In other words, rationale ipso facto refers to proponents. Having said that, do suggest a new, yet succinct title since I now understand that the title is the only major POV-perceived part of the article. Nomen Nescio 03:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is to place some distance between the rationale and Wikipedia; it needs to be clear that Wikipedia has not produced rationales either for or against impeachment, we are merely reporting the rationales of others. It's certainly in the best interest of the article to come up with a new title, since it's safe to say that as long as it is at this title the POV tag won't come off. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest a succinct title. As long as opponents of this title introduce titles that take more than 3 pages (hyperbole) the subsitute clearly is not an improvement. Nomen Nescio 20:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Nomen, your constant rebutting of every comment which opposes this article, grows weary. Merecat 08:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Renaming article

Brainstorm! (add suggestions):

• Rational to impeach George W. Bush (original)
• Rationales provided by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush (Chris' suggestion)
• Rationales of movement to impeach George W. Bush Kevin Baas^talk 20:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• Reasons cited for seeking Bush's impeachment - from intro of Movement to impeach George W. Bush
• Bullet list of anti-Bush arguments
• Bullet list of pro-impeachment rationales
• List of anti-Bush, pro-impeachment rationales
• Anti-Bush, pro-impeachment, rationales
• WP:OR WP:POV anti-Bush screed
• Aggregated arguments for seeking Bush's impeachment
• Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush

I think the last suggestion (and current title) is frankly awful - it makes it sound like it is the rationales themselves that are seeking impeachment. I think Reasons asserted by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush, unweildy as it is, is the clearest and most NPOV option. BDAbramson T 18:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• And why is the talk page at a different place than the article? ... Please, nobody move pages unless you know what you are doing as the results of failure can be ugly. Agree with BD, though, this doesn't resolve any of the concerns at the AFD (which are the main reason to move the article) while also making the title sound terrible. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Fixed into Rationales to impeach George W. Bush. Still not good but at least better than what it was. Now we can continue debating renaming the article. Nomen Nescio 19:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not fixed, since the history is now in the wrong place. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Eh, oops, didn't think of that. Nomen Nescio 20:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

POV section titles

I have made some edits to correct what I saw as POV section titles. Any questions on this, let's talk here. Merecat 08:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected some of your edits and will explain.

• Nobody denies Bush has said the GC do not apply, in other words the GC are refuted
• Removing Katrina is odd, since somebody feels it is an impeachable offense. I appreciate you disagree, but Wikipedia is not about our believe, but what can be presented based on sources. Since clearly sources exist we should include it.
• Regarding FISA. You are well aware FISA was adopted following several transgressions involving wiretapping (similar to the current debate). Second, FISA is violated, If this is incorrect, please explain why the administration did not deny the violation of that law, but chose to say it was authorized to do so by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) and the Constitution (unitary executive).

Nomen Nescio 12:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush asserts that GC does not apply to unlawful enemy combatants. This is not the same as "refuting" [5] In fact, if you looked into it better, you'd see that Bush is correct. The Geneva Convention is only binding on signatory countries as they interact with each other. The Guantanamo Bay prisoners are not prisoners of war under GC, because they are irregular fighters, fighting against USA without the authority of their home countries. For them to be POWs, the would have to be a) from a country that has declared war on USA, b) lawfully authorized by that country to fight USA and c) each country must be a signatory to the GC. If all three conditions are not met, then these men are unlawful enemy combatants and have no rights under the GC. On the other hand, if you want to say that they are legitimate soldiers, then the fact that none of them were in their home country's military uniform when they were caught, makes them spies - and subject to being shot without trial. Think about that. Merecat 17:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect. 1 Many detainees were not captured on the battlefield or even engeaged in combat. 2 Although this is the rationale advanced by the Bush administration many legal exp[erts (among which HRW) dispute the claim. So at best your assertion is open to disscussion, not fact. 3 The memo itself say refuting, but a header saying refuting the GC for Al Qaeda and Taliban is not an option. Nomen Nescio 18:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

I have re-directed this article to Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush

Merecat 08:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And I have fixed your cut-and-paste mvoe, please use the "move" button in the future. NSLE _(T+C) at 09:00 UTC (2006-04-04)

Does that mean editors are in agreement about this name? Can the POV tag go? Nomen Nescio 12:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Preventing edit war

Since no WMD have been found they6 do not exist. To claim that their non-existence has to be proven is not only a logical fallacy, it is the principal reason Iraq was invaded. It is impossible to prove a negative, and since the allegation is there are WMD the burden of proof is on the proponents of this claim. Until evidence says otherwise WMD do not exist. For comparison see alien lifeforms. Nomen Nescio 16:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've got 3 problems with your statement: a) Bush never said we would find them, only that USA thought Iraq had them, b) USA has found proof that a program for WMD was under way and c) you presume that USA has released all WMD related finds to press. Since when does it become mandatory for such an assumption? Allegedly is the right word. Merecat 17:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Since when does it become mandatory for such an assumption? Innocent untill proven guilty. You are maling a mistake, unless evidence of WMD is shown their existence is allged, not their non-existence. Or could you explain how many years of not finding these weapons does it take before they do not exist? Maybe this will help, X accuses Y of being a thief. X says he is not, Y says, as long as you do not prove it you are allegedly innocent. Nomen Nescio 17:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You are arguing againt your own assumptions, not against the facts. when you start adressign the actual facts, as exampled by my 3 point comment above, perhaps we'll make some progress. Merecat 23:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)