Talk:Fidel Castro

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 205.240.227.15 (talk) at 21:36, 1 June 2006 (→‎And the whitewash continues). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An event in this article is a January 1 selected anniversary

For archived discussions, please see (oldest first): /Archive 1 ... /2 ... /3 ... /4 ... /5 ... /6 ... /7 ... /8 ... /9 ... /10

Deleted crap about Hitler; and about castro having extramarital kids

Castro was not born "into a wealthy family" at all. You keep reinserting this. He was an illegitimate son, one of seven children, whose last name was not even "Castro" until he was 17 and who was raised in impoverished conditions in his maternal grandparents home (until they died) and then in various foster homes. Fidel was not even allowed near the Angel Castro home until much later, when Angel's first wife finally left. This is just plain wrong. See Serge Raffy's recent book, or Brian Latell's book.


Is he the head of state of the longest duration?

Is Castro currently the head of state who has been head of state for longest among all nations? Would be a notable stat to mention in the intro paragraphs if so. 

Tempshill 01:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The last sentence of the last paragraph is ridiculous. "Free health care and free education", please! This country is in total shambles. I just read that his personal fortune is estimated at 900 million. We should have taken him out years ago. The people of his country suffer in dire poverty while he is worth so much. Secondly, I thank God I was born in the U.S. and not in Cuba. Finally, the spirit of the last sentence in the third paragraph makes him sound like a saint. This bio was obviously written by a socialist.

Yes, good idea, I encourage you to edit that into the article. BruceHallman 16:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, he is not. He did not offically become head of state until 1976. 172 | Talk 21:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Castro referred to as 'leader' in the first sentence rather than his office or political status? Couldn't leader be misinterpreted as non-neutral?
Go ahead and change it to "ruler." BTW, that's hardly the biggest problem with the article. 172 | Talk 19:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it but previously it has been changed back rather quickly.
has been changed back today, will change it again but can we get any enforcement from this vandalism?

He is the longest serving Prime Minister[1]BruceHallman 21:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


you do know that in theory, communism IS better than capitalism, right? it's just that no one can actually do it right.

"Power currupts, Apsalute power corrupes absalultly" because this will alwas hold true Communism can never be better than capatilisim where there are restrictions on power.Ken 21:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs a rewrite

It's horrible just in terms of the quality of writing. 172 | Talk 21:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is because, like just about any controversial subject, it has been re-re-re-re-re-rewritten in an ideological warfare. You could gice it a go but it will probably be reverted in no time. Alas. I have stopped contributing to anything relating to such subjects and so will many other neutral editors, which of course does not help. This is a major problem with Wikipedia. I suppose edits in such articles (the ones related to communism for starters) should be limited to people who have proven to have a neutral pov. Until then, I only use Wikipedia for non-controversial technical stuff. At least in that realm Wikipedia rulez! :) DirkvdM 18:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I removed all the articles that weren't about Castro in person and I added links to their main pages at the "see also section". There, it doesn't need much more change now. Teemu Ruskeepää 12:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to move "foreign relations" and "Castro and Soviet Union" entirely to "Cuba - government and politics" and I have asked that there, while the article is closed "until disputes are disolved". Teemu Ruskeepää 12:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs a re-write.

Early years in power

On January 15, 1956, Castro's forces entered my butt on January 5 the liberal law professor José Miró Cardona created a new government with himself as head stupid man and Manuel Urrutia Lleó as evil man.

The article is also redundant; how many times is it nessacary to mention who Castro's pairents were? --71.48.177.245 20:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have a long list of what I believe to be factual inaccuracies and grammatical errors as well. I'll try to summarize them and post some suggestions for the editors online in a few days. I'm swamped with exams right now.


Has anybody else noticed that there's a section entitled "Life as a gorrilla"? I found that amusing. --71.48.177.245 20:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison to Hitler

The comparison to Hitler is a laughable POV with no real sources that serves absolutely no purpose to the article. Comandante 13:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It may technically be POV and of course should not be included if it is not cited, but it is hardly laughable and not so far from the truth. I can see by your name where your loyalties lie. --Mcmachete 01:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fidel Castro Hitler
--The Mad Bomber (talk) 01:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


_ It might at least be better to make a comparison to some other "communist" since Hitler was completely opposed to land reform, and limitations of the private ownership of factories and other means of production, as well as the standard "socialist" reforms that take place after "leftist revolutions". In Mein Kampf Hitler often shows his disgust for Marxists and communists. You might find Castro to be similar to dictators like Stalin, but a comparison to Hitler seems silly and lacking in an understanding of what kind of social and economic policies separate the two men. Donald628

~I agree with Donald628, Castro may not be a saint but hes not Hitler, eiter in political outlook or crimes commited. Ken 21:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is reasonably substantiated fact about Fidel Castro?

I would like to copy edit this article on Fidel Castro. However, it is impossible for me to tell fact from fiction from innuendo without references.

I have no particular bias, but some of the writing seems outlandish. I am not interested in producing a biased biography but rather something straightforward, yet representing various views (as I know there is no one truth.) I need some cooperation from some reasonable thinkers. Please?

Thank you,

KarenAnn 00:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. There is no point in trashing Castro, regardless of your point of view. He is an important historical figure.

Excerpt from book

Moved to: Talk:Cuba#Excerpt_from_book

Reference section

Would anybody be opposed to converting the current plain hyperlink references into footnote references which are becoming increasingly common on Wikipedia? mensch • t 22:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I started converting all the links to reference tags and I encountered a lot of references to articles in Cuban or Spanish. Are they valid sources for an English article? Just wondering. I took out some of the links, but as I encountered more I stopped doing this. Feel free to re-add the sources I deleted if they qualify as reliable sources for this article. mensch • t 13:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recommend deleting first paragraph under Family and Health

This first paragraph has nothing substantial in it. It has way more detail than is needed, even if it were sourced correctly. KarenAnn 23:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

re Mensch about Reference section

I have been removing nonsensical links in body of article (links that go nowhere or to some irrelevant place.) Like you, I'm wary of messing with links to sources in Spanish. I consulted with a Spanish-speaking person who looked at a few of them and said they were extremely biased. But someone who knows Spanish needs to evaluate them. KarenAnn 13:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

All the links referring to non-English sources are removed from the article. If necessary I can compile a list of the resources taken out of the article for Spanish speaking people who would like to validate them. But still, I'm unsure if non English sources qualify as material for an English Wikipedia entry, so it's probably better to find equivalent English sources. mensch • t 21:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if they are legitimate I think they do. Wikipedia says that it wants to appeal to a more gobal audience in a article in the Community Portal yesterday. KarenAnn 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they do. English-language sources are preferred on en.wiki, naturally, assuming equal quality and reliability; but if there are better and more reliable sources in another language, they're the ones that should be used. See for instance this recently Featured article, where all the main sources are in Swedish. That's not an ideal situation, but since there are good books on the subject in Swedish and only pretty feeble and error-ridden websites in English, that was the way the article had to be written. The relevant guideline is here. Bishonen | talk 00:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Ramon and the "Family Estates"

The article states that Ramon is said to manage the family estates, and there is no citation indicating where the author has found such a claim. It is my understanding that there no longer are any family estates and that the former family estates were appropriated and deeded to workers during early land reforms. It is now my intention to find supporting documentation for this, and i hope someone can attempt the same for the claim made in the article

There were no citations, as you say, and I have not found any information on the subject. You are right. It doesn't belong there anyway.KarenAnn 15:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


So sorry there are no Castro estates, merely memorial sites. And for a long time Ramon was in charge of these. As to Fidel Castro's illegitimate children this is widely recongnized except by prudish communists, xe xe El Jigue 5-24-06

Request for Copyedit

This article no longer seems to need copyediting, and I think the copyedit notice should be removed.Emmett5 17:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are still sections though that have no citations.KarenAnn 19:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Current form: "This partnership resulted in the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis and Cuba's military intervention in many countries of the third world."

My suggestion: " This partnership realised in the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis and Cuba's military intervention in many countries of the third world.

Argument: The former assigns blame on Castro's allying with Soviet Union. That he shouldn't have allied with communists that don't exist anymore and that Castro isn't any good himself. We don't want to suggest or take sides in anything but just to tell what happened in history. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This statement no longer applies as the article has become a battle ground of political viewpoints, with little to no referencing. There is no leadership. The kindergarden has no no supervision. The Fidel Castro site will go down in flames. NothingMuch 03:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please, bitch all you want here, as long as you don't bitch up the article ;) Teemu Ruskeepää 08:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looking through the Fidel Castro history, it is clear that Teemu Ruskeepää is the one that bitched up the article -- although that's really not using the word "bitch" correctly. I've never heard anyone say "bitched up" before. NothingMuch 21:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You will find no such things. I last modified this on 18:17, 22 May 2006. This low-level english term describes well what an internet troll or a bitch does to articles. Teemu Ruskeepää 19:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Political beginnings

Is that a green baretta that Castro is wearing? The same as Guevara used to wear. I'd like to get one and scare the finnish bourgeoisies on the street. Teemu Ruskeepää 16:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

Sorry I made my huge structural alteration with out asking you guys. I believe it is good though.

In the paragraph "Assumption of power" the lines are untidy, because the index numbers make the lines wider than usual. Wikipedia needs to create a new set of index fonts, which are as small as ² (alt + 253), ¹ (alt + 251) and ³ (alt + 252). However, you can still use those characters for some numbers to make the line compact and tidy. Teemu Ruskeepää 13:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to restore some of the content you deleted, hope you don't mind. But not mentioning things like the missile crisis during the Cold War or only touching the subject of the 26th of July Movement, Bogotazo or other things which are major events in the life of Castro and only referring to them in the "See also" section seems a bit strange to me. Now I know that a lot of these sections I restored are still in need of restructuring or downsizing, but I think they should still be in the article for the overall completeness. I think the article as it was earlier only reflected part of what the article about Castro should look like. mensch • t 21:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In the future I hope that all things are discussed before being realised. I was trying to make the article a biography of Fidel Castro. Do you think it should be more than just a biography? How do you think your changes relate to this idea? Teemu Ruskeepää 08:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What is your idea of a biography? Would you write a biography of Theodore Roosevelt or Aldoph Hitler without discussion of multiple aspects of World War II? Or would World War II just be in the See also section? NothingMuch 21:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or his little practice murders with Emilio Tro's group when he was at the university. xe xe El Jigue 5-24-06

Ai caramba! Teemu Ruskeepää 08:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article has to cover every aspect of Castro, including his personal life, life as a politician, revolutionary, etc. So things like the 26th of July Movement need to be in the article about Castro. The problem with that particular paragraph is that it's more or less a direct copy of the 26th of July article. I think it needs a rewrite. mensch • t 09:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see how it turns up. I may have had been better to read the discussions first before I made my changes. Teemu Ruskeepää 19:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cuba definition

Just making sure everyone on this page is OK with definitions of Cuba.--Zleitzen 04:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Republic Of Cuba

  • Cuba's official name as identified by all nations and international bodies is "The Republic of Cuba"[2]. The first Republican administration began on May 20, 1902.

Socialist Republic

  • The Cuban constitution states that Cuba is an independent and sovereign socialist state [Article 1]... the name of the Cuban state is Republic of Cuba [Article 2]. In 1961
  • European Union official documents describe Cuba as "one of the last committed Socialist republics in the world"

Communist State

  • The United States CIA Factbook states Cuba's Government type as: Communist state

The term "Communist State" is often used as shorthand for a state where the Communist Party is the sole political organisation. The term is most commonly in use in the United States. However there are particular issues with this description. Use of the term here needs to take careful account of context.

  1. The definition of a Communist State is in itself difficult. This term is technically an oxymoron, because Communism's theoretical goal is "the creation of a society that is stateless". See Communism.
  2. According to Marxist theory the intermittent stage where the state assumes near total authority as is the case in Cuba, is known as the construction of socialism.
  3. Constitutional amendments of 1992 in Cuba recognised forms of non-state owned property (joint ventures between Cuba and foreign entities, corporations, other economic associations). These liberal amendments meant that Cuba moved away from Communist goals and towards a more multi-tiered society. [5]

Material

KarenAnn has removed some of her added material, which is a shame because there was some really good material in there. Does anyone object to reinstating it to raise the quality of the article? --Zleitzen 05:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'am not against it (I know KarenAnn is), because it's good content. Also, questionable mass removals, as Teemu Ruskeepää did, need to be discussed on the talk page of the article first, I think. Although it's a Wikipedia policy to be bold, the recent removals crippled the article. mensch • t 11:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm too for putting back KarenAnn's material. I really like what she did of the article, her additions were quite good. And, yes, removals should be discussed first, not done unilaterally. --RockyMM 12:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Castro's Corruption

Werlau, Maria C. (2005). "Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate" (PDF). Cuba in Transition. 15: 376–395.

  • "What is striking about defectors’ accounts is their consistency, which is impressive because they originate from independent sources, who have had dissimilar access to the structure of power, and whose testimonies cover different events and stages and have been collected over a long period.
  • "Since the 1990s Fidel Castro is said to have a fund called “Fondo de Divisas del Comandante en Jefe,” into which 15% of all hard currency revenues generated by Cubans overseas—trainers, artists, professionals, technicians, and so on—is deposited"
  • "in the 1980s Fidel Castro received suitcases full of hard currency as “gifts” for his birthday each August 13"
  • "Jesús Marzo Fernández reports that he witnessed a birthday party for Castro in the 1980s when a prominent government official gave Castro a suitcase with US$10 million."
  • "Manuel de Beunza, who managed Cuban businesses in Canada, reports having on one occasion personally delivered US$2 million to Fidel"
  • "a meeting in the late 1960s with Raúl Castro, at the time when del Pino was in charge of the commercial airline Cubana de Aviación. Raúl instructed him to open a bank account in Zurich, Switzerland, to deposit all the fees received from foreign airlines for air passage over Cuba. The accounts were opened in the names of Vilma Espín, Raúl’s wife, and Rodolfo Fernández, the right hand man of Celia Sánchez, Fidel’s longtime friend and confidant"
  • "Castro allegedly makes loans from his overseas “reserves” to the national economy to cover hard currency shortfalls at an interest of ten percent,"
  • "Fidel’s daughter, Alina, mentions several “Protocol Houses” used for dignitaries and friends of Castro, information that is confirmed by other defectors.56 The long list includes anywhere from 25 to 37 homes57 all over the island; many are said to be used only occasionally for shortrest periods during travels throughout the island or to entertain guests. These include a number of recreational residences at beaches and in the countryside, ranches, hunting grounds, specialized fishing and cattle reserves, a shrimp breeding facility, and luxuriousunderground bunkers outfitted with the latest technology.58 Some have their own electric generation and water plants, sophisticated communications’ command facilities, and enjoy amenities such as pools, tennis courts, marinas, and even golf courses."
  • "Among Castro’s overseas properties is said to be a castle in Austria,59 and large ranches in Galicia, Spain; Monterrey, Mexico; and near New Delhi, India."
  • "The involvement of high-ranking Cuban government officials in international drug trafficking under the orders or with the knowledge and acquiescence of the Castro brothers has been long alleged. Consistent reports abound from former regime insiders, members of Colombian and Mexican drug cartels, from intelligence officials of the former Soviet Union and its satellites, and from journalists, governments, and even world leaders—including the Presidents of the United States and Colombia."
  • "Fidel’s approval was won with the argument that it would not only weaken the United States, but also bring in funds for international subversive activities and hard currency for Cuba.64 Rodríguez Mernier relates that drug trafficking became a substantial source of hard currency revenue for Fidel Castro.65 Major Florentino Aspillaga explains that millions of dollars in cash delivered by Cuban intelligence agents to Castro were to be deposited in his Swiss bank accounts “in order to finance liberation movements."
  • "Roberto Ampuero, a Chilean revolutionary who in the 1970s married the daughter of Cuba’s Attorney General, in a biographical novel depicts the privileged lifestyle of a select few in Castro’s inner circle. Ampuero soon became disaffected with the Cuban Revolution as he witnessed rampant corruption by the Cuban political elite living in the mansions of those who had fled the country, with servants, drivers, and plentiful access to food and all sorts of consumer goods while the Cuban population was under strict food rationing and material deprivation. See Ampuero, op. cit."

Just some morsels. Read the best details in the article. :) Ultramarine 03:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's going on?

This aritlce was relatively good a few weeks ago. Is this anarchy? The inmates have taken ove the asylum. Marat de Sade? Or foolishness? NothingMuch 03:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NothingMuch. Does it mean that it isn't as good now? Teemu Ruskeepää 08:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does. It got destroyed about three days ago. People have been working hard to restore it, much to their credit, but it certainly isn't as good (or as interesting) as it was before the destruction NothingMuch 11:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree. I think this version by KarenAnn, has the original, better sections. It's better to restore the section parts of that version with the current ones, as they read as a series of dates and numbers. The old version is better, maybe a bit dense, but better. Anyone feels like restoring? mensch • t 11:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For the third time, I'm for it! The amount of time and research invested by KarenAnn should not be wasted, especially if the result of that hard work was as good. Maybe we should make a voting here? --RockyMM 13:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to restore the content today, but I'll wait for a little while longer. If there are no massive objections the next few days, I'll restore the deleted parts of the article. mensch • t 13:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I restored all the content which was lost about a week ago. I left some paragraphs (about Cubas economy) out of the article, because they don't deal with Castro and his direct influence on Cuba. I also removed the "copyedit" notice on the top of the article. For some parts of the article this notice is still in order, but the notice should be put there, I think. mensch • t 11:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Castro's murders as a student are covered up now

Interesting how well Castro's student murders (Manolo Castro, etc etc) have been covered up here. I checked the reference cited

found it was:

  1. ^ Mathews, Herbert L. (1962). Fidel Castro. New York: Simon and Schuster.

and burst into gales of laughter apparently the contributor wishes to ignore the fact that Herbert Matthews (it is spelled with double t) is not "quite" the most reliable source for this kind of thing. Of course scholarly books dealing with Matthews white washes of leftist atrocities have been published recently. One might read:

Depalma, Anthony. The Man Who Invented Fidel: Castro, Cuba, and Herbert L. Matthews of The New York Times. PublicAffairs Perseus Publishing New York 2006 ISBN 1586483323

Koch, Stephen The Breaking Point: Hemingway, Dos Passos, and the Murder of Jose Robles. Counterpoint Press, New York 2005 ISBN 1582432805


As to the actual murders one might read Ros, Enrique. Fidel Castro y El Gatillo Alegre: Sus Años Universitarios (Coleccion Cuba y Sus Jueces) Ediciones Universal Miami 2003 ISBN 1593880065

El Jigue 5-25-06

You are quite right about Herbert Matthews. I found old articles from the New York Times that he wrote at the time. KarenAnn 20:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


Thank you Karen Ann, if my memory of such does not fail me, even the New York Times wrote a favorable review on the Anthony Depalma book (see above) El Jigue 5-25-06

See this review on the same book: From The International Herald Tribune (owned by the NYTimes)

KarenAnn although this review presents some aspects of Matthews pro-CAstrp bias my own judgement of Matthews is far harsher, given his history in Civil War Spain, his treatment of Ruby Phillips (the NYT editor in Havana), and the favorable comparison with Duranty. This review reads as if Matthews went up the mountains alone and as if he had no prior contract with Castro. El Jigue 5-25-06

Well, Matthews was a reporter for The New York Times, so what do you expect? I'll look in my archives and so if I can come up with something better for you. KarenAnn 17:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


KarenAnn DePalma has a number of appropriate comments on Matthews bias. I have a few but they are not for polite company. El Jigue 5-26-06

I'll soon know for myself. I have now ordered the DePalma book, since the library refused to cough it up -- too long a waiting list. KarenAnn 01:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unesco and AP foul up Cuban Slave history

Unesco [6] and VANESSA ARRINGTON of the Associated Press [7] have really fouled up Cuban slave history. Dates are wrong and events in the wars of independence including Cespedes and other Mambi emancipating their slaves in 1868, Spanish recognition of rebel slave freedom in the Pacto de Zanjon in 1878, are forgotten. El Jigue 5-25-06

Reference to Castro wealth estimates

A reference to estimates of Castro's wealth is found at [8] El Jigue 5-25-06

I think that the wealth section is exceptionaly pointless. As the head of a country with a state run economy it is NOT his wealth! Technically any Cuban could claim that as their collective wealth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.34.6 (talk • contribs)

Riiiight. --Kbh3rdtalk 21:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Riiiight! It is not his wealth! What's he going to do with it? Cash it in and live in Miami? That's a very odd way of establishing someone's wealth. If all the hospitals in the UK were sold off would Tony Blair pocket the money? (he'd probably try) but no, it's not his, and nor is every enterprise in Cuba Castro's personal plaything. ((Belaruski))

Deleting sources written in "native language" is mashugana

Mensch wrote: "I started converting all the links to reference tags and I encountered a lot of references to articles in Cuban or Spanish. Are they valid sources for an English article? Just wondering. I took out some of the links, but as I encountered more I stopped doing this. Feel free to re-add the sources I deleted if they qualify as reliable sources for this article. mensch • t 13:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)"

There is no such language as "Cuban," and deleting entries in the Cuba's "Native" language (Spanish) (Technically Taino or Neo-Taino Siboney is closer to being Cuba's "Native" language; however at present there is very little written in Taino) makes no sense at all. If one were discussing Yiddish culture and one deleted all references that were not in English one, would be not a "mensch" but a "mashugana." A far wiser procedure would be to leave references in "native language(s)" and add, when ever possible, equivalent citations in English. Taino-Ti! El Jigue 5-26-06

Of course that's a far wiser procedure. So please, start providing equivalent citations and translations in English, instead of just stating that somebody else should've done this or should be doing this. I don't speak Spanish and have little knowledge about the linguistic side of Cuba, so adding references in "native Cuban languages" is not my cup of tea. The references which were in the article at some point however, were far from neutral and not very reliable, according to somebody who had more experience in translating Spanish texts.
Furthermore, I don't like to be called a "dumbass" or a "stupid person", even though you try to insult me in Yiddish. mensch • t 12:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

El Jigue, steady on old chap and don't bite the workers. Meet me over at History of Cuba where your considerable knowledge of the subject matter would serve a more excellant purpose. Take a look at that page and see what you think needs to be expanded - removed - check dates etc. --Zleitzen 13:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Z: "Dunno" it was the deletion of references without being able to read them, and going on the word of another who thought they were not neutral just seemed to be the act of a "mashuguna" to me. Sorry for mal adroit comparison which could be taken, an unintended insult. Now I am trying to find a link between "Fabio Grobart" and the death of Julio Antonio Mella. Castro who reputedly met Grobart after, apparently distinguishing himself, in the Bogotazo said [9]: "As Flavio (should be Fabio) Grobart explained in a brilliant historical analysis, this all went back to the end of the last century. He was referring to 1898 when a Cuban newspaper began to disseminate Marxist ideas. He was also referring to the socialist concerns of some of the workers who assisted Marti's revolutionary work in Tampa and in Key West, the founding in 1899 of a party that was already based on Marxist ideas and headed by Diego Vicente Tejera and which later, early this century--for the party had a very short life--was to become the Cuban Worker Party, and then the Socialist Worker Party, and finally, was to be known as the Cuban Socialist Party which was headed by Valino (should be Baliño), or of which Valino was one of the principal leaders. Because of our country's objective and subjective conditions early this century, that party was not able to unfold its action fully. However, in 1923 the socialist group in Havana broke with the Second International, supported the Third International, and became the communist group in Havana in which the revolutionary life of Julio Antonio Mella began." All this seems to be mere pronouncement of the official Cuban line on the foundation of the Cuban communist party, e.g. Martí, who was never communist,is mentioned as such and Trotsky althought aluded to here, is never mentioned by name. El Jigue 5-29-06

And the whitewash continues

I note. with not a little amusement, that in Revision as of 14:20, 28 May 2006 (edit) Maester mensch (Talk | contribs) eliminates any references to the murders Castro committed as a student, even to the point of eliminating the pallid words of Herbert Matthews a well known Castro apologist. 5-31-06 El Jigue

First of all, let me make it clear that I'm not a Castro supporter nor a communist, I'm just interested in the subject. I deleted those lines, because I read on the talk page that Matthews is an unreliable source. I think there should be a reference to those murders, but if such a story can only be backed up by a flimsy source, than I think it's better not to mention it until a better source is found.
So please, I you've got a reliable source backing up the claims concerning Castro's murders in his student days, post it here. I think that's a far better approach than telling us that it amuses you...
And "whitewashing", are there other facts that should be mentioned in the article? If so, please add them. mensch • t 23:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mensch if you are not aware of these murders (which I, among others, had carefully cited to references way before you arrived on the scene, and subsequently saw this information removed by others) one might be excused for assuming that this merely shows how much there is to learn about Cuban History. Hint you might find these references still attached to the Cuba article. Still after all this it seems preferable to me to leave such deletions and omisions as they are, since such a circumstance clearly signals the discriminating reader that this article is not by any measure accurate nor NPOV. El Jigue 6-1-06

Apparently to be with Castro is lethal

I had not realized that Castro had been with Chibas when he died. It would seem that Castro is a plague carrier contaminating those presidents or presidencial candidates who associate with him, and then die violently. This list is long working up from Manolo Castro, Student President of University of Havana, Leonel (what's his name Gomez?) another student president, to Salvador Allende of Chile, Chibas Cuba, Gaitán Colombia, Maurice Bishop Grenada, Osvaldo Dorticós Torrado Cuba, Prime Minister Olof Palme of Sweden etc. Then there is the suicide of Carlos Prio Socarras, who once supported Castro financially. 5-31-06 El Jigue

Human Rights violations in Intro Paragraph

Hey all,

I'm putting back the sentence which reads "while silencing political dissenters and quelling challenges to his rule." You said it's not cited or in the right place. Nothing in the intro paragraph seems to be cited; it's merely introducing topics which are then backed up and expanded upon in the following article. I agree that the sentence was unveriafiable before the addition of the section on Human Rights, but as that has been added (by TDC) cleaned up (by Mensch) and cited (by me), the sentence makes sense now. Likewise, I think the sentence should be in the intro paragraph. Again, the intros serve as a general summary of the topic and/or articles, by way of an introduction. When giving a (very brief) overview of the topic of "Fidel Castro", I think it important to mention his human rights violations (as documented), which are multitudinous, extensive, and a key to understanding many of the issues facing Castro and his regime today, both domestically and internationally. Certainly as important as the other things mentioned, such as free health care and education.

Korossyl 16:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"while silencing political dissenters and quelling challenges to his rule" is just too POV, read it again, and compare it to other world leaders and youll see it even fits the description of "Cold Reading". We cant deny Castros crimes, perhaps justify them as the natural outcome of a revolution, but not deny them, but then again to not place them as a fact that "the tyrant castro" is behind every silenced political dissident, when all in all, Castro is just a small part of what its a whole machinery, the cuban goverment works much like a parliamentary goverment, there are elections that are surprisingly more democratic than in most countries (no propaganda for example, their biographies are released and its the voters responsability to see who is he voting for), if the representatives would want it they could take castro out in any minute, but hes an icon for most cubans, and their way of thinking is that the revolution just keeps going, so any dissident is at the end an enemy of the revolution, not Castro himself.

K: I like what you said, not for the same reasons as you. To me it shows how much the extreme left has taken over this article and thus how this article cannot be considered a reliable source. El Jigue 6-1-06

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