Talk:Line of succession to the British throne

Archives

• Archive 1 (2003 – 2005, 46kb)

Poll

OK, I'd like to start a poll on the proposition below. I'll give it a few days in case the wording should be tweaked. Doops | talk 02:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

All the red-linked names ought to be unlinked at one fell swoop. Then if any particular redlinks would be useful, they could be restored individually. However, there are unlikely to be many such cases.

• Support: Craigy (talk) 02:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
• No Williamb 05:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support: Tompw 15:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe I've got a streak of immediatism in me, but I think it's a rather trivial matter to readd the links once the articles have been created, and, in the mean time, the profusion of red links invites the creation of material that may not be encyclopedic. And it just looks a bit unprofessional, IMO. – Seancdaug 05:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support, however could we then put the names in bold, it would be clearer, easier on the eyes, and much easier to read through all the info. that is next to the name. Mac Domhnaill 20:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - new articles should be encouraged and dealt with on a case by case basis when they make an appearance. -- Francs2000 20:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

There are two problems with that: firstly, we don't want to encourage the creation of silly little stubs containing nothing more than "Joe Schmoe is 4321st in line for the British Throne", which will be a pain to VfD. Secondly, what then? If an article gets created and VfD'd, it'll go back to having a red link; do we unlink then? Or do we keep a red link in case that person ever in the future should become notable? Doops | talk 20:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way then of predetermining which are nobility or members of the peerage, and which are not? I am against a widespread removal of all the redlinks because some of them may be notable. -- Francs2000 00:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, some of them might be notable; but if so it's no hassle at all to relink them again. It's ease itself. (With regards to your question, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking.) Doops | talk 02:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

To put it another way, how will you know that an article of someone notable who is in the line of succession has been created in order to relink it? -- Francs2000 03:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's probable that whoever writes such an article would be aware of this page's existence and make the link him- or herself. And, after all — if somebody were to come along, UNaware of this page's existence, and create an article for one of these folks right now, we have no guarantee that he or she would hit on the same name for that person's article as this page's redlink has! Doops | talk 04:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support- makes it easier to read Astrotrain 21:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I strongly disagree with that. It is far harder to read now, the red links emphasised the names of the people who were in line. Jdcooper 10:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support- Many of the people listed will never get articles and it is hard on the eyes. People writing articles on the more obscure persons on the list will know about this list anyway, as they are probably royalty specialists. Or, perhaps, links could be established not to the specific person, where they are personally obscure, but rather to the history of the region they come from, if such an article exists. For example, link HRH Princess X of Baden to an article on the history of Baden. Then readers could find out more about the context of these people. --Sares 10:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Hmm, I should be delinked at one fell swoop too...

Comments

Actually, I am against this list going beyond anything that can be confirmed from an authoritative source, for reasons I have already stated. The British monarchy website stops at no. 39, the Earl of Harewood, the 2006 edition of Whitaker's Almanack stops at no. 38, Zenouska Mowatt (the last descendant of George V). I doubt if you will find any authority that goes much further than this. PatGallacher 19:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough; but that's a separate question. Doops | talk 19:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually Zenouska is not the last descendant of George V, Maximilian Lascelles (Number 52) is. And since anyone can trace the line through the descendants of the Electress Sophia, there is no reason why it should be stopped at such a low number. Astrotrain 21:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, at a certain point, the Catholic issue starts to become a serious problem. Genealogies have, however, been published of the descendants of Queen Victoria. I would guess that it is, in fact, at least theoretically possible for us to determine the status of all descendants of Queen Victoria. After that I think it would become seriously dubious. The current list, in my understanding, is pretty clearly and demonstrably accurate for all descendants of Edward VII (through #81), and probably up to the descendants of Princess Ileana of Romania (that is, through #104, although I believe that Sophie de Laufenborg might be excluded). If we ditched excluding listing of suspected Catholics, and included everyone, while specifically noting people known for certain to be excluded, the problem of things being authoritative really doesn't arrive at all. The descendants of Queen Victoria are pretty clearly documented, and as I noted before, new births and deaths can easily be tracked on the internet. john k 07:58, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose (tho its a bit late now), the red links made it clear which were the names, now large parts are just a mess of unwikified text, which in my opinion is far "harder to read" and "harder on the eyes". Why do redlinks necessarily have to be filled in? Can they not just be used (effectively might I add) for emphasis? And plus, who says they should go to VfD? The more articles we have on Wikipedia the better, I would rather hundreds of new articles about European nobility than hundreds of new articles about peoples' RPG-aliases any day of the week. This article is far worse now. Jdcooper 10:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support. If it is hard to read, then just break it into blocks of ten or twenty. I don't think that the more articles on Wikipedia, the better. My view is that the more good articles on Wikipedia, the better. Jll 18:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  • If we have stubs on someone, thats better than having nothing, IMO. Jdcooper 02:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. People unaware of this page may create a page for that person, and it gets a link in from here. Also, it is encouraging for people who know stuff on the subject to then write that article (new users especially) --LeftyG 23:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Family Branches

Is it really nescesary to include a list this long. Couldnt it just be simplified to mention the descendents of a specific monarch (ie. descendents of Queen Victoria __-__, or Descendents of Emperor Wilhelm II of Germany __-__,) and even mention where the descendents of Queen Victoria stop and those of Electress Sophia begin. I thnk that that this particular part of the article has gotten out of control, much of the info on it can be discovered by looking on the list itself. Any thoughts? Mac Domhnaill 20:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the second list is too long and unruly. -- Francs2000 20:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Why? The second list, it seems to me, is considerably more useful than the first, which is just a long list of names of mostly obscure people. The second list is a guide that explains who all these people are. john k 07:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we could do with a combination of the two types of lists. I will ponder. Morwen - Talk 21:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Recently the list has gotten too detailed. I suggest that we limit it to the children of monarchs and get rid of all the grandchildren and great grandchildren. If there is no good family tree article that provides the detail this list currently has (grandchildren and great grandchildren), then we should create a new article for that. I added this new section back in June, precisely because the naked list was too confusing when trying to understand from whom the various people were descended from, but if the family branches list is too long, that can be just as confusing.
Btw, it was the confusion I had over understanding the historical succession to the throne (especially when it jumps to a distant relative) that lead me to create the Direct descent from William I to Elizabeth II article to help me - family trees can be so complicated. :p NoSeptember ^talk 22:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

German Principalities

I was reading through the official website of the Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg, and noted that the princely family is Catholic. I removed Princess Anastasia of Prussia and her descendents from thie list. I'm worried some of the other German princes and princesses on this list may have married Catholics, especially those that aren't as well known like the royal families still in power. Morhange 23:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Really you shouldn't remove people right now, the list is going through changes and it is being considered listing all decendents with a footnote for those Catholics. It's been a sticking point for some time now. We just have your word they are Catholic at the moment. Williamb

Just to clarify though, if someone is Catholic they are removed from the line of succession, but their children are only removed if they too are Roman Catholic. Is this the case for all those individuals that have been removed from the line of succession? -- Francs2000 23:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you possibly post the url of the official site too, Morhange? Thanks Craigy (talk) 23:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The official site is at http://www.loewenstein.de and there's a button to change the language to English. On the sidebar, it will say Fürst Löwenstein, and then Family history. On the Family History page, at the bottom, it says: Their fight for Catholic doctrine and their bond with their church has been a hallmark of all the Princes of Löwenstein. As a leading Catholic layman of the 19th century, Prince Karl (*1834, +1921) presided over the Central Committee of German Catholics. His son, Prince Aloys, as well as his grandson, Prince Karl, carried on in his footsteps. As such, the Princes of Löwenstein have played an important role in the Central Committee and Catholic Conferences for a century. Morhange 16:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Position

Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia is listed at 150, but his article says 146. Could you guys check to see which one is correct? --maru (talk) contribs 02:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• Its more likely that this article is correct- since any new additions will automatically move others up one. Astrotrain 09:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • That's the problem with some of the stubs that exist just because the subject is in line for the throne. It's a ton of needless editing every time a new baby is born or someone else dies and the numbers change. Morhange 22:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Prince/ss of Prussia

Although titles aren't recognized in Germany anymore because the monarchy is gone, members of the Prussian Royal Family continue to title themselves HRH Prince/ss NN of Prussia. However, I believe there are strict rules on marriage, so that if a "royal" member marries a "commoner" then any children are surnamed either Prinz or Prinzzesin von Preussen. I think someone literally translated for some of the people on this list, so the ones with no HRH preceding their name are not Prince/ss NN of Prussia, but NN Prinz or Prinz/zesin von Preussen or, rarely, NN von Hohenzollern, which is their legal surname and is, I believe, their legally recognised surname in Germany and elsewhere, even though their parent's HRH Prince/ss NN of Prussia isn't. I'm just wondering if I should go ahead and make the changes to these people, who aren't (at least in the Hohenzollern family) entilted to be called Prince/ss of Prussia. Morhange 00:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Note that the first 506 people on this list, as well as HM The Queen, are descended from Queen Victoria.

This isn't really true anymore as there have been a couple of newcommers in the first 506 so the number of people descended has moved.

I propose making a more general statement about lineage rather than an exact number as it's really shooting at a moving target...

I think it would be the first 502 people, as Robin Bryan is currently the last on the list of descendants. Morhange 19:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Catholicism

Alexander von Pejacsevich is a Catholic - No. 656, he should be skipped.

Prince Michael of Kent's children, Lord Frederick & Lady Gabriella Windsor are both Catholic and as such, should not be featured in the official line of succession.

Frederick and Gabriella aren't Catholics. Their mother is Catholic, and because their father married a Catholic, HE isn't in the line of succession. Fred and Ella were both raised as Anglicans, so they're still in the line of succession. Morhange 23:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I notice that people who have married a Catholic are removed from the line of succession, but that protestant children born to them after they married a Catholic are included. I have always understood that when you give up or loose your right to the throne, any children born after that are also excluded. Is Britain an exeption to this rule. As far as I know it exists in all other hereditary monarchies.Gerard von Hebel 23:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

As long as their children adhere to the Protestant faith then they're fine (see the comment above for the examples of Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella). Lord Downpatrick on the other hand followed his father and became a Catholic which is why he isn't included on the succession list. Craigy (talk) 00:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Obnoxious American???

Can anyone tell me who the article's number one, Sir Leonard von Hobbes, actually is???

noone, relax. --tasc 07:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Prince Floris

I think number 847 can be taken of the list, her married a Catholic.

What about the Orthodox?

Is the only religious restriction really that the candidate can't be Catholic or can't marry a Catholic? There are Romanovs on this list whom I assume are Orthodox, and who therefore wouldn't be in communion with the Churches of England or Scotland despite being the heads of both if by some bizarre chance they succeeded. And of course the possibility exists that Muslims, Jews, or just plain old atheists might inherit. --Jfruh 23:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it really is the case that Catholicism is the only religious affiliation that prevents a person from succeededing to the throne of the United Kingdom.

You still have to be a Protestant to inherit, as in a member of the Church of England. It is anyone who marries a Catholic who becomes inelgible, although they can still inherit if they marry a Jew or Muslim. But a Jew or Muslim cannot inherit, as they are not members of the Church of England. Astrotrain 20:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Was George I a member of the Church of England before he became its head? —Tamfang 01:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe actually that you only have to be a member of a church in communion w/the C of E, which most Lutheran churches are, yes? --Jfruh 02:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The only Lutheran Churches in communion with the Anglican Churches of the British Isles are the Porvoo Churches (the Churches Sweden and Norway, and the Evangelical-Lutheran Churches of Estonia, Lithuania, Iceland, and Finland) since 1994-5, so I don't think it is really true to say that most Lutheran Churches are in communion with the Church of England. More to the point, does the Sovereign have to be in communion with the Church of England, or does he/she only have to be willing to be its Supreme Governor and to take the necessary oath to defend it at the coronation (having taken the Scottish Presbyterian oath immediately on his/her succession)? Indeed, the Sovereign manages to be Supreme Governor of the Church of England at the same time as he/she is an ordinary member of the Church of Scotland, with which the Church of England is not in communion. I believe Queen Victoria caused some disquiet when she actually received the Sacraments in the Church of Scotland. --Oxonian2006 23:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

De-linking the red links

There are more than 800 red links belonging to non notable heirs to the throne of Britain. If they don't deserve an article, shouldn't we just de-link them and bold their names instead? Funnybunny (^talk/_{Counter Vandalism Unit}) 03:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

tree style

It's a bit odd to see a linear list followed by two trees. I wonder how much longer the page would be if it showed all of Sophia's legitimate descendants in tree form, bolding those now alive (and not disqualified) and italicizing those disqualified. —Tamfang 04:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The Duke of Fife

It appears that the Duke of Fife (53rd in succession) is the first person on the list who is not descended from King George V - is that correct? MK2 02:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed consistent with [1]. —Tamfang 05:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)