Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Ohio/Archive 1

[[:|WT:OHSH]]

New Shields On Wikimedia Commons

I'm in the process of creating new shields over on Wikimedia Commons. I'll switch the template over when I get most of them done. You can see them here. Micheal 18:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Per the conversation below, I have uploaded all new standardized shields with the naming convention OH-X.svg thru OH-XXX.svg, and they can be found here. Homefryes 14:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Renaming

Renamed List of numbered routes in Ohio to List of Ohio State Highways to try and go for uniformity in list naming (for state highways). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 17:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure we should "jump the gun" on renaming of the articles, since that whole bit is still up in the air. If you don't object, I'd like to revert the "naming" portion back to the original (on the project page) until the entire naming debate is settled; the majority (if not all) of the articles are currently "Ohio State Highway n," so this change would begin the whole process of renaming/moving them. Additionally, once the debate is settled, we will need to agree on either "route" or "highway." Anyone else wish to comment, please? Homefryes 15:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

That's old. For now, I have kept the page directing to List of state routes in Ohio which redirects to the main page. In the future, this can easily be changed. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 15:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm referring to the change you made on the project page under "Naming." Not sure we should change this as of yet, i.e., new articles having one naming convention when most (if not all) existing articles are named "Ohio State Highway n." That's the revert I'm proposing (reverting the project page back to show the currently used naming convention for articles). I'm just saying we should avoid confusion until other issues have been resolved, because then we'll need to bring project-specific issues to the floor. Trying to make sense (without stepping on toes). Homefryes 15:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit) P.S., I think you have the explanation of "article title" and "redirect" reversed in your comment for the edit on the project page. Homefryes 16:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Project improvements

To all interested parties on this project: I’ve been working on articles for other state highway wikiprojects, and in comparing them to this one, I would like to make some proposals for improvement. While what we have going here so far is good, I think there is definitely some room for improvement. I’m very interested in starting a conversation regarding my proposals.

I realize that some of you may feel that “this is a bad time to be working on highway projects,” in light of recent events and activities going on in the community. I, however, think this is the perfect time to work on this project. Changes based on the outcome of some of the afore-mentioned events may bring massive changes (or not) to this project; regardless, this would be a good time to make some changes here and incorporate them in the grand scheme.

What I am suggesting overall is a better organization of the project itself. The actual project outline could use more specifics, in my opinion. In comparison to the WP:NYSR, I think we are pretty vague on our project page. Here are some of my detailed suggestions:

Infobox

My overall suggestion is that we use the Infobox Road template, which is more widely used and consistent with other states' pages. Pennsylvania’s is a good example. Some of the features we lack that this one has are:

Year formed
Counties listing

Thie would remove the Cities listing from the infobox. For routes that are long, and/or pass through suburban areas, the cities listing can get rather long, thus taking up a lot of space. We already have the cities in a list in the body of the article, so we are just duplicating that.

As for the browsing line at the bottom of the infobox, I will say that I’m not a fan of US routes being linked-up if they fall in sequence with the state routes – reason being, the reader gets pulled out of the state’s route listings altogether, a problem I find annoying when I’m browsing. However, it seems to be the norm on other projects, and there is the possibility of having each state’s previous and next routes listed on the US route’s page in a browsing format. So, if this is the way it is to be (for standardization), then we need to be certain that the state’s routes are listed on the US route’s page (see the bottom of U.S. Route 4 for an example).

I can make a info box similar to what I now use at, for instance, Kentucky State Highway 7. It is entirely customizable and quick to set up. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

That looks good. I tried playing with "infobox road" for Ohio, but the default for Ohio is SR rather than OH. While I'm not opposed to that, I'm not sure it's the way we want to go. I'm hoping to get more feedback on the content that should be included. I'm not sure now that "year formed" should be part of it, since I have yet to find that information out on the web anywhere. But I do lean toward including counties and not including cities in the infobox, as mentioned above. Homefryes 17:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I like the one that the NY State Routes Wikiproject uses. It has all of the normal information you'd expect plus one for counties which would go along with what Homefryes said. Micheal 00:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the infobox on the OH-1/2/3 pages, I kinda agree with what Homefryes said, that and it's pretty much similar with those used in other state highway pages(eg. Georgia) so it looks consistent across state projects. Micheal 05:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

~~Maybe we can get the coding changed on "infobox road" to show "OH" instead of "SR" when Ohio is selected as the type. Thoughts? Homefryes 10:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)~~
Disregard that suggestion. It's not going to be entertained, as ODOT uses "SR" and not "OH" in their terminology. Regardless, I'd still like to propose the use of "infobox road" for Ohio. Homefryes 21:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused here - so the infobox at Kentucky State Highway 7 works as long as OH is changed to SR? That's no problem. As I stated, it is customizable, but note that adding stuff like major intersections or information that can easily be listed in the main body should not be added to the infobox. It should be short and concise. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 18:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly. That was in ref to Infobox Road (all-encompassing template) displays "SR" when Ohio is the type entered in the variables. My only issue w/ SR in the infobox is when the route terminates at the state line, it's a little ambiguous. One only has the shield to differentiate -- and the article's link, of course. Otherwise, SR in the infobox is fine. So I guess we need to agree on whether we will use Infobox Road (which shows "SR") or create our own homegrown infobox with "OH" as the coding. I do like Infobox Road for its other features, and wouldn't want to lose that capability.

On the topic of cities and junctions in the infobox, I agree that shorter is better. I don't mind a handful of junctions. I would like to propose that the only junctions that land in the infobox would be with Interstates or other limited-access highways only (Ohio 11 for example). I think cities in the infobox is redundant, but would much prefer seeing counties (like Infobox Road has). Not in list-form, but separated by a comma, as is used on other states' articles. Responses, anyone? Homefryes 20:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Side comment from a neighboring WP (PA) member: depending on what the consensus ends up being (whether to use "SR" or "OH"), the abbreviation that Infobox road uses can be edited here. Regards, TMF ^{T - C} 00:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The KY Road infobox template has comma seperations for counties and cities, but if the city listing is in the body of the text, it can be removed. Major junctions could be listed in the infobox if its not excessive, but we need to come up with a set standard on what should go in there and what should not. Your example is fine with me, as Ohio defines limited-access as a highway that has controlled access points, such as expressways and freeways that do not need to have interchanges. Limited-access is on, for instance, US 52 between New Boston and Chesapeake although it has intersections and interchanges - and signs on the ROW fencing indicates this. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 23:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with counties in, cities out. As for junctions, I wouldn't quibble if someone included US 52 if the junction is part of the limited-access portion. Route 82 is limited-access around Warren, but east of that it has interchanges at 3 state highways and a grade-level intersection at Route 7; and it has grade-level intersections with all county and township roads east of Warren as well, with one exception. But the speed limit is (I recall) at least 60; therefore, I would list it as a junction for at least the 3 state routes and possibly Route 7 as well. Conversely, I would NOT list any of these routes around Warren and points east as major junctions for Route 82 except for Route 11 (and its terminus at US 62). How does that sound? So the only remaining issues I'm aware of are (1) the redesigned route shields and my getting them loaded to the Commons (with the naming convention OH-X.svg (thru XXX)), and (2) agreeing on either SR or OH in the infobox when OH is the type designated. The infobox should allow the editor to use the neighboring states as well (where termini are at state lines) and that state's route shield and name will appear. Agreed?

I'm changing my stance on all limited-access highways being considered as "major junctions." I was testing Infobox road on Route 7, and if all junctions with limited-access highways are included, it gets mighty long! So I'm going to take a step backward and suggest only junctions with 2-digit interstates. Homefryes 14:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Structure

I would like to suggest a standardized format for each route’s page; some sections can be optional. WP:NYSR uses the following:

Infobox information

~~Articles should use a standard template that is widely used by other sibling Wikiprojects.~~ We are deciding whether to use Template:Infobox road or create our own similar infobox for Ohio. Proposed items that should be included in the infobox are:

listing of counties, separated by commas
Major junctions – only to include junctions between the featured route and limited-access routes.

We are proposing the cities should not be listed in the infobox, but rather under a separate heading in the body of the article. All known info should be supplied in the infobox.

If there are no objections, I suggest we start using Infobox road for all the articles. Homefryes 14:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Main section

This is the untitled section that describes the route. It might be helpful for formatting to use {{TOCleft}} at the top of this section to display the table of contents on the top left, followed by the main description of the route. Depending on the route this section may just name the direction (E/W or N/S) and termination points, or may go into more detail. After seeing a news-ticker item the week of 8/1/06, in which the president of Wikipedia was stressing quality not quantity of articles submitted, I have decided (for articles that I create) that this section does not need to be wordy and extremely detailed. My suggested inclusions here would be detailed descriptions of the termini of the route, a general description of the route’s characteristics, perhaps major rivers crossed, or other points of interest that wouldn’t be covered below.

I even propose NOT having a “Route description” section. I think everything descriptive could be covered in the “Main section,” and that a paragraph – possibly two at the most – should be more than sufficient there.

Towns along the route

Summary of towns along the route. Depending on the length of the route this may include only major towns, or it could include minor towns and even unincorporated villages, if they’re significant enough to the local area.

Major intersections

List of the state routes, U.S. routes, Interstate routes and, optionally, county routes that this route intersects with in table form. See the “Major intersections table” section below.

History

Any historical information known about the route should be noted.

Miscellanea

Any trivia or facts about a route (any interesting information that doesn't belong in the History section) should be placed in this section.

References

Place all references here, using the <ref></ref> tags in the article and the <references/> tag in this section.

External links

Place all external links which are not references here.

Standardization of route shields

I have noticed, and have contacted KC8YNJ regarding this issue, that we have a standardization problem with regards to the Ohio state route shields that have been created:

Varying font sizes on some of the 2-digit shields
The size for the 3-digit shields is 671x600px, and in my research, I’ve concluded that the size should be 750x600px (which is in accordance with what other states’ projects are using). I hope to show a photograph to show my findings here – am waiting for permission from the photographer, but the email link seems to be outdated.
There are Ohio shields on Wikipedia as well as on the Commons under slightly different names. This should be cleaned up (having on the Commons only would be sufficient), and I would recommend that the name be shortened to something a little more concise and editor-friendly, as other states’ projects have. OH-### would be my first choice, and Ohio-### my second.

I am more than willing to take on the daunting task of creating these shields to specs – using various photographs as a basis for what is standard and what is not, and then getting all the links changed over to the new schematic. I am certainly open to showing my proposals for what is “standard” regarding the shields before settling on parameters.

I replied to your comments on my talk page about font sizes and stuff. Micheal 00:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is a sample of what I've created, based on photos from Dan Garnell’s Ohio Highway Ends, matching the font size specifically to the pictures. I came up with a standard based on newer shields from the site (Ohio has not always been very consistent).

These have been loaded to the Commons, each with the OH-X.svg (thru -XXX) name, as discussed here. I can upload the remainder upon agreement from anyone who wishes to chime in.

I have no issue against loading the rest to Commons, these are excellent shields. Micheal 11:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have uploaded all new standardized shields with the naming convention OH-X.svg thru OH-XXX.svg, and they can be found here. Homefryes 14:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, then, now that this is done, we probably should IfD the shields at Ohio State Highway X.svg. -- Grev 18:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. (edit) However, we will be left with a bunch of holes in the existing infoboxes until we get them all updated. I would still like feedback regarding using "infobox road" instead of the home-grown infobox, in a move to use something that's more standard across the other projects (it has been recoded for the new shields, and I see the other infobox has as well). If there are no objections, then we should get those done before we IfD the old shields. Homefryes 20:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Major intersections table

I would like to propose the use a junctions table like what is found on WP:NYSR. It could be optional, as it would certainly be overkill for short routes (like Ohio 85), but would be very useful for routes that intersect with even a few routes, and especially those that traverse two or more counties.

I welcome input regarding any and all of my suggestions above, and would like to hear others as well. This is certainly not an attempt to “take over” this project. I just want to see it be better than it is, and I hope others will agree that there is some room for improvement.

Regards to all, Homefryes 19:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose we standardize it, similar to Vermont Route 279. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I have been working on this with major help from TwinsMetsFan. He upgraded the table for the Pennsylvania project (see sample), and put together a similar table for Ohio. I have put it to use on Ohio State Highway 14, along with some other proposals I've put forth (this article did not previously exist). If everyone likes it, I will post the procedures for building these tables on the project page. Homefryes 14:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming Convention

Regardless of the poll's outcome, here are some official OH DOT docuemtns with the official correct name "State Route X". Now all we have to wait for is to see if State Route X (Ohio) wins or Ohio State Route X wins (in my opinion, hopefully the prior one =|).

[1]
Any press release e.g. [2]
Construction status, e.g. [3]

In total, 7,250 documents on ODOT [4].

Conversely, There is ONE document on ODOT that calls is "Ohio State Route X" [5] (5 results, 1 correct):

[6]

atanamir 19:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm totally for "route" over "highway." I'm not going to get into the debate here, and will definitely support the outcome fully. But once that's over and done, I'd like to see us come to an agreement on "route" vs. "highway" here on the Ohio articles. Homefryes ^Say•_Do 20:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just mentioning we should use "Route" over "Highway", sorry for bringing that last part up. atanamir 20:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think it's best to wait to make that change. Most of the articles are "Ohio State Highway X," and to change them one way or the other could be a waste of time. Homefryes ^Say•_Do 21:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

State route naming conventions poll

Directions

Please add your name using the format # '''Support''' ~~~ (three tildes) below the principle which you endorse. You cannot vote more than once but you can discuss.
DO NOT change and/or otherwise edit votes that are not yours (except for those of confirmed abusive sockpuppets, to be nullified only by one of the six judging admins, and those who have not reached the 100-edit threshold, in which case anyone may strike out).

Reminder

Voting commences at 23:59, Sunday, September 3, 2006 (UTC).
Voting ends 23:59, Tuesday, September 12, 2006 (UTC).
The current time is 12:36, Saturday, June 1, 2024 (UTC).

The following is a transclusion from another page. Edits (like commenting and voting) are made by clicking the "edit" links to the right of the headings below. This will redirect you to the original page's edit box. You can't make edits to the section below by clicking the "edit this page" tab at the top of this page (you will only see the transclusion code). Your edits will be viewable here, the original page, and on the second page of the State Route Naming Conventions poll. – Homefryes ^Say•_Do 14:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ohio

If anyone feels that there should be other conventions on the table in accordance with Principle I (such as "Ohio Highway X" or "Ohio Route X"), please feel free to add them below, including a brief reason you feel this should be included (a sentence is sufficient, as have been provided with 1 and 2).

Convention 1: <Ohio> State Highway X

This is the format currently in place on nearly all of the articles.

Convention 2: <Ohio> State Route X

The Ohio Department of Transportation uses "state route" as their naming convention [7].

Support – Having lived in and near Ohio for more than half of my life, it is my experience that "state route" is the commonly used term by residents and media alike. — Homefryes ^Say•_Do
Support per nom and Homefryes. --TMF ^{T - C} 16:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Support Nyttend I've occasionally heard "State Highway __", but "State Route __" is far more common.
Support per nom. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Support per nom. --myselfalso 20:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Support as a resident and daily user of state-maintained roads, and beacuse it sounds right. Einstine85 15:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Support as long as it is generally agreed upon. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 18:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Endorse - Seems uncontroversial. --CBD 11:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Endorse Syrthiss 23:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Endorse CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:State route naming conventions poll/Part2

Your state is invited to participate in discussions for its highway naming convention. Please feel free to participate in this discussion. If you already have a convention that follows the State Name Type xx designation, it is possible to request an exemption as well. Thanks! --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Usage of signs?

When I put together the little bit on Ohio State Highway 638, I put in a tiny shield instead of the number "638" at the beginning of the text. Curious on your thoughts: bad idea, good idea, etc. Nyttend 21:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to say probably not a good idea. Somewhere, it's probably stated that it doesn't follow the guidelines of a good article in general, and maybe someone will post a link to the guidelines. Since we have the shield in the infobox, my opinion is it shouldn't be in the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homefryes (talk • contribs)

I have to agree with Homefryes. Using a shield in place of the number 638 in the article introduction is inappropriate as a substitution for text, especially in the bolded restatement of the article title. That's my view on this issue. --TMF ^{T - C} 22:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Project Improvements Implemented

Since I posted my proposal for project improvements nearly a month ago, I have received no feedback against moving forward. Therefore, I have posted the guidelines for articles on the project page. I have also put together an extensive table on my userpage which shows what articles and redirects currently exist, as well as which infobox is currently in use on articles, and what other sections need to be added, upgraded, etc. Regards, — Homefryes ^Say•_Do 12:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Question about common names

I've noticed that a lot of articles use the form "Ohio 527" rather than the "State Route 527" listed at WP:USSH. Is this a common name outside Wikipedia? --NE2 19:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I should have done a little research first. It looks like it is used sometimes in the media: [8] So that brings us to the question of whether we should use it in articles. Would it be acceptable to start articles "State Route 527, also known as SR 527, Route 527, or Ohio 527,"? --NE2 19:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I lived within an earshot of it for 18 years. I've never heard it be referred to as the state route number outside of official publications. Most would prefer to call it the Robert C Byrd Bridge, or whatever Street/Avenue it lies on. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about routes in general, not specifically SR 527. --NE2 19:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh. I would use the proper form that was decided upon. In the case of WP:USSH, State Route X would probably be the best path for this. It would be too cumersome to go in to every article and add in, "... also known SR 527, Route 527, and Ohio 527". Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What about links to other articles, like tho "Ohio 7" link in Ohio State Route 833? Do you think it's OK to use the "Ohio 527" or "OH 527" form there, or should those be changed to read "State Route 527" or "SR 527"? --NE2 20:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been upgrading the articles little by little, and have been changing the "Ohio ###" tags to the fuller "State Route ###" tags. In the body of the article, the routes should be called their proper names – likewise for U.S. Routes and Interstates. In areas where shorthand is desired (like infoboxes and junction tables), Ohio State Routes should be abbreviated as "SR" (not "OH"), as that has been shown to be the abbreviation used by the Ohio Department of Transportation — Homefryes ^Say•_Do 20:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I were to run AWB, changing Ohio ### to State Route ### and OH ### to SR ###? --NE2 21:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't suppose that would be a bad idea at all. The only thing I object to, as is being discussed elsewhere, is changing [[Ohio State Route X|SR X]] to [[State Route X (Ohio)|SR X]]. But to fix what you're suggesting immediately above, that would be just fine by me — Homefryes ^Say•_Do 21:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

WAIT!!! There are references to external pages that use the name "Ohio X." These should not be changed, as they are the official names for the pages to which they refer. So that may prevent the use of AWB on the pages — Homefryes ^Say•_Do 12:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)