Sin senos no hay paraíso and Template talk:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus: Difference between pages

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Difference between pages)
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
 
→‎Images in new location: Sources heading added
 
Line 1: Line 1:
==Image in template==
{{Infobox Television
This template really shouldn't have an image. Also it shouldn't be called 'Nakba'. The reasons are as follows:
| show_name = Sin Senos no hay Paraíso
#The image serves no purpose other than to dramatize the template, which is against Wikipedia's principles of neutrality (WP:NPOV). It does not provide more information to the article. It would be like including a particularly thin Holocaust survivor's picture in a Holocaust navbox, or a picture of a bloodied Israeli killed in a terrorist attack in a navbox dealing with terrorist attacks.
| image = [[Image:Senos8072.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
#The image is harmful because it significantly increases the template's height, especially on 4:3 monitors/resolutions (e.g. 1024x768).
| caption =
#The Nakba is an Arabic word which [[WP:ENGLISH|should not be predominantly used in the English Wikipedia]]. The consensus right now is Palestinian exodus. However, in this case neither should be used, because this navbox isn't about the Palestinian exodus, but specifically about depopulated villages, and should be titled thus.
| format = [[Romantic love|Romance]], [[Exploitation film|Exploitation]], [[Telenovela]]
| camera = [[Multicamera setup|Multi-camera]]
| picture_format = [[Color]]
| runtime = 42 minutes
| creator = [[Gustavo Bolivar]]
| developer = [[Telemundo|Telemundo Studios]] <br>[[RTI Colombia]]
| producer =
| executive_producer = [[Hugo León Ferrer]] <br>[[Mary-Kathryn Kennedy]]
| director = Miguel Varoni <br> Ramiro Meneses
| editor = José Luis Varón
| starring = [[Carmen Villalobos]]<br>[[Catherine Siachoque]]<br>María Fernanda Yépez <br>[[Aylin Mujica]]
| narrated =
| theme_music_composer = Héctor Cardona Jr.
| opentheme = Sin Senos no hay Paraíso
| endtheme =
| country = {{USA}} <br>{{COL}} <br>{{MEX}}
| language = [[Spanish language|Spanish]]
| network = [[Telemundo]]
| location = [[Bogota]], [[Girardot, Cundinamarca|Giradot]], [[Durango, Mexico|Durango]]
| picture_format = [[HDTV]]
| audio_format = [[Stereophonic sound]]
| first_aired = [[June 16]], [[2008]]
| last_aired = [[November 13]], [[2008]]
| related = :''[[Without Breasts There Is No Paradise]]''
| num_episodes = 100
| list_episodes =
| preceded_by = [[Pecados Ajenos]]
| followed_by = [[El Rostro de Analía]]
| website = http://tv.telemundo.yahoo.com/sinsenosnohayparaiso/index.html
| imdb_id = http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1244387/
| tv_com_id = }}


I will also notify [[WP:IPCOLL]] of this discussion.
'''Sin Senos no hay Paraíso''' (literally, ''Without Breasts There Is No Paradise'') is a Spanish-language [[telenovela]] produced by the [[U.S.|United States]]-based [[television]] network [[Telemundo]].[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/entertainment-20070614000000-nbcuniversalscores.html?rss=1] It is adapted from ''[[Sin Tetas No Hay Paraiso]]'', a [[Sin Tetas No Hay Paraíso|2006 Caracol TV serial]], which was a hit in Colombia. Telemundo claims its version is "set to launch a new era in television"[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/telemundo-20080512000000-telemundoannounces.html]


-- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 11:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
''Paraíso'''s story is based on investigative journalist [[Gustavo Bolivar]]'s eponymous debut novel. It features an attractive young [[prostitution|prostitute]] who seeks massive breast implants to attract a rich cocaine smuggler.[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/entertainment-20070614000000-nbcuniversalscores.html?rss=1] The show's debut drew 749,000 adults (aged 18 to 49), making it one of the network's most-watched premieres ever.[http://www.worldscreen.com/newscurrent.php?filename=novela061908.htm]
:Can the the text be word-wrapped around the image? Then it would take up hardly any space. I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatize" the template, I can't imagine anyone objecting to a Holocaust image (say, a Gestapo "doctor" dividing a line of arrivals or the famous gate) providing it doesn't show people in immediate distress.
:The word Nakba has long since passed into the English language - it's over 30 times more popular than "Palestinian Exodus" by the Google test (635,000 hits to 19,600). I don't know what the Nakba is about, unless it's de-populated villages. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 13:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
::Not sure what you mean by word-wrapped around the image. It's not prose so word wrap wouldn't affect it anyway. What do you have in mind?
::About dramatizing, that's exactly the point - using the Arabic term and having a picture of someone suffering does unnecessarily dramatize the event (not to mention there's absolutely no argument ''for'' keeping the image). Wikipedia's job is to report facts, not put a spin on them. The word ''nakba'' is certainly not more common than English terms - it refers to a general event, which also has to do with the term "Palestinian refugee(s)" in English, which [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22palestinian+refugee%22+OR+%22palestinian+refugees%22+OR+%22palestinian+exodus%22&aq=f&oq= passes] the 'Google test'. But that's beside the point because per [[WP:NC]], [[WP:ENGLISH]] takes precedence over [[WP:COMMONNAME]] either way. ''[http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=shoah&lr=lang_en%7Clang_iw%7Clang_ru Shoah]'' is a much more well-known word in English than ''nakba'', but you don't see anyone using it in place of Holocaust in the English Wikipedia. That combined with the fact that many worldwide don't agree with the term ''nakba'' at all, which also makes it problematic per WP:NPOV when used unnecessarily.
::About ''I don't know what the Nakba is about, unless it's de-populated villages.'' - you seem to be missing the point. The point is that ''nakba'' is a much more general term than just depopulated villages, so it would be a strange name for such a template (even if none of the above issues existed). It would be like making a template listing only Nazi death camps and nothing else, and then titling it ''Shoah''. Assuming none of the above issues existed, one would expect a ''nakba'' template to include persons associated with the event, possibly some notable villages, notable massacres like Deir Yassin, etc. - not a huge list of villages.
::-- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 15:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Applying the Google Test to ("Palestinian refugees" + "Palestinian exodus") vs "Nakba" may be some form of error on your part - it bears no relation to the claim that the "Palestinian Exodus" is the consensus term. The Holocaust/Shoah comparison seems irrelevant, the English term is 15 times more popular than the non-English. Please tell us what [[Nakba]] really means/implies. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 11:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I think using 'palestinian refugees' in a search is pretty fair. Even the Wikipedia article says in the lead sentence: ''the Nakba ... refers to the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem during and after the 1948 Palestine war.'' Moreover, in Arab-speaking countries it also refers to the 1948 war in general, so that can be added to the English search. It should also be obvious that ''nakba'' is not the widely-accepted English term by the top Google results - almost all Arabic-run pages like alnakba.org, electronicintifada, palestineremembered.com, nakba60.org.uk, hanini.org, etc. By comparison, the top results for Shoah are mostly websites clearly not affiliated with Israelis or other Hebrew-speakers. Still we [[WP:ENGLISH|use English]]. Please keep in mind that a Google test taken verbatim without analysis doesn't really say anything, and should not be used as the main point of an argument. Do you have actual proof that the ''nakba'' is indeed the most common term for the event in English?
::::However, all of the above is deviating from the real issue - whether ''nakba'' is a proper title for a list of depopulated villages. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 14:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::I looked at the "[[Nakba]]" entry and noticed "refers to the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem" too - I read that to mean it definitely refers to an event, and is not the name for a group of people. I'm happy with what you say about the use of the word in Israel, but the Google test (crude though it is) is pretty conclusive as regards its use in the English-speaking world.
:::::The image is a different problem, I think it's kinda helpful, but the space taken up is a real issue. Is it really not possible to word-wrap around it? [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 18:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::What do you have to say about the fact that most of the top results using ''nakba'' are Arabic-run websites, in contrast to Shoah, which are not run by Israelis? I think it completely discredits the basic Google test in this case (although as I said, the various English terms for the Arabic term ''nakba'' already clearly outperform it in search results).
::::::About the image: I'm still not sure what you're talking about. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 21:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Can we stick to arguments that are either in policy or are a reasonable extension of existing policy? It may appear that we hate and distrust Palestinians sources, but if they're writing in the language of English then they are English-language sites. (You're wrong anyway, even Israeli newspapers use the word and it is 30 times more popular than your alternative). Redefining "Palestinian Refugees" so as to become an event (Nakba) didn't fly and nor will this. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 15:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


== Images in new location ==
''Sin Senos No Hay Paraíso'' replaced ''[[Pecados Ajenos]]'' in [[Telemundo]]'s 10 p.m. (ET/PT) time slot on [[June 16]], [[2008]].[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/telemundo-20080512000000-telemundoannounces.html] Telemundo began shooting the series at Telemundo's production centers in Bogota and Girardot, Colombia, as well as its studio in Sinaloa, Mexico,[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/telemundo-20080605000000-034sinsenosnoh.html] on [[April 15]], [[2008]]. It euphemistically said this melodrama is about "a young woman "who makes the wrong decisions in order to escape poverty."[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/telemundo-20080605000000-034sinsenosnoh.html]
==Story==
[[Image:Senitos.JPG|thumb|left|180px|Catalina and her family (brother Bayron and mother Hilda)]]
[[Image:Senoes.JPG|thumb|right|250px|Ximena, Yésica, Catalina, Paola, and Vanessa during their school days]]
When the desire to get ahead turns into blind ambition, it is capable of leading someone, and all their values, directly to the edge of a cliff.


Timeshifer: I'm glad that you moved the images to a less harmful location, but that does not address the concerns I raised above, about the relevancy of the images. What is your position on the issue? -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 12:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
''Without Breasts There Is No Paradise'' is a story of Catalina, a young girl from a small humble village in Colombia ,Pereira, who is willing to risk everything in order to escape the poverty she lives in and fulfill dreams, even if this means putting her life and her integrity in jeopardy.


:I am not sure what you are talking about. Please explain exactly what is the problem with the current images. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 17:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Her mother Hilda, a lovely hard working woman with no resources to provide her children with luxuries, expends boundless energy in her efforts to push both her children, Catalina and Bayron to prosper.
::Sorry for the long delay. The problem is that the images are redundant and have no purpose other than to dramatize the event, which is a violation of [[WP:NPOV]]. They are the image equivalent of [[WP:PEACOCK|peacock terms]], which should be avoided. Moreover, the images are not directly relevant to the depopulated villages in particular - they are more relevant to the [[Palestinian exodus]] in general, and belong in that article alone. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 12:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I still do not understand your objections to the images. None of the guidelines you referred to apply in this case. Your objections seem to be along the lines of [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. The Palestinian refugee images are relevant to articles about depopulated Palestinian villages where the old population became Palestinian refugees. The images in question are of people who could be refugees from any of those villages. They are refugees during the period in question. Images are not redundant to text. Both are important and encouraged in Wikipedia. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 23:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Timeshifter, although there isn't a precise rule against images in navigation boxes (I guess this hasn't been a problem - where have you seen navboxes with images?), but my argument about violating POV still stands. In fact, [[Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates]] specifically mentions the NPOV issue in disadvantage #3, and excessive size (which also applies here) in disadvantage #2. Another point which I think clearly illustrates that these images shouldn't be there is: ''As with categories, all the articles in a template should substantially deal with the subject of the box. Ask yourself, is the subject of this box something that would be mentioned on every article in it?'' - the answer is no - these images aren't even linked from any of the template's sub-pages, and are not relevant. There's nothing WP:IDONTLIKEIT here. On the contrary, I have provided numerous arguments for why the images should be removed, and have not seen a single one for why they should be kept. The procedure in a case like this should be similar to WP:PROD. On a side note, thanks for catching that 'Palestine Remembered' title nonsense. I can see that you are committed to NPOV, so let's have a civil policy-based discussion about the merits of the images. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 09:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::Disadvantage #3 does not apply because the images do not violate [[WP:NPOV]]. Disadvantage #2 does not apply because the template size is not too large. As for whether or not all the cities listed in the template were depopulated during the [[1948 Arab–Israeli War]] I wouldn't know. That is not my area of expertise. The images should not be placed directly in the city articles in my opinion. It makes more sense to place the thumbnail images in the template since the images do not relate to specific cities. The refugees could have fled from any of the cities listed in the template. I still do not see any guidelines or policies violated by having these images in the template. Why don't you like these particular images? What images would you prefer in the template? Or do you just not like images? --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 09:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I guess that's where we disagree - both these images clearly violate WP:NPOV (in this context - for reasons already outlined several times - read discussion) and the template is too large even without them, and clearly too large with them. If you want to fix the size problem, it shouldn't be too hard by making a [[:Template:Israel Defense Forces|modular template]] (one module for each district, and one for the images), but that still wouldn't solve the WP:NPOV problem. As Al Ameer son correctly noted, if any images should be used, they should be relevant to the villages (the subject of the template), not the people. Even PR above claimed that the refugees are not inherently part of the same topic as the villages, so I don't see where your objection stems from. I still don't see a single argument in favor of keeping the images, other than WP:ILIKEIT. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 10:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Al Ameer son referred to a template that did not exist: [[Template:Palestinian refugees]]. See the rest of my reply to him farther down. I don't see how PR said what you claim. Using a template for each district alone would be OK if each district template linked to a page listing all the villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and if the total number of villages in all the districts was listed in the district templates. This way there is no minimization of the scale of the depopulation. Minimization would be against [[WP:NPOV]]. I have already answered your other points. Please see previous replies. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 08:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Is there any argument for keeping the images other than WP:ILIKEIT? By the way, I didn't mean having multiple templates, but having a modular template, which is one template having multiple collapsible sections. I could code that, but first let's solve the problem with the images. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 08:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Images are a part of encyclopedias. This is a long-decided issue. See the [[Wikimedia Commons]]. I don't see how a modular template like the one you mentioned ([[:Template:Israel Defense Forces]]) lessens the total size of the template. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 09:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
''Moving to left''<br />
Timeshifter, "Images are part of encyclopedias" is a WP:ILIKEIT argument. Templates are not part of the prose on Wikipedia and therefore don't need illustrations, and I'm not sure what Wikimedia Commons has to do with this. Please stick to the issue at hand. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 18:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:Let me be clearer then. Images are a part of the Wikipedia encyclopedia. The main location of those images is the Wikimedia Commons. Templates and infoboxes can include prose, images, lists, and much more. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 00:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::The above is based on numerous misconceptions, which I will attempt to clear up.
::Firstly, images on Wikipedia are meant for ''illustration'', not for other purposes. This is in fact the first line in the [[WP:IMAGE|image guideline]]: ''Wikipedia contains millions of illustrative images and other media.'' Please clarify how the two images in this template are illustrative of Palestinian villages.
::Secondly, Wikimedia Commons is by no means the main location for images on Wikipedia. It happens to be the location for ''free'' images (and Wikipedia uses many non-free images also), for technical reasons. The purpose of Wikimedia Commons is to allow the same image to be used in multiple-language Wikipedias, as well as sister project, as can be clearly understood from the first paragraph of [[WP:COMMONS]].
::Again, you are changing the subject without providing any ''policy-based'' argument for 1) Why images are relevant to navigation templates (clearly, they are not), and 2) Why these ''particular'' images are relevant to this ''particular'' template.
::-- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 10:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I have answered all your points in my previous replies. See also my latest reply to Ravpapa below. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 02:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
----
:::I think there should be a image(s) in the template, but they should be of the villages not the people. That belongs in [[Template:Palestinian refugees]]. Also, they shouldn't have their own section but rather be on the side. --[[User:Al Ameer son|Al Ameer son]] ([[User talk:Al Ameer son|talk]]) 22:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
::::The side would be better for the images, but I don't know enough about template code to make the text wrap around the images if they are on the side. Maybe a better template coder can be found to do this. I did not see any template about refugees in here: [[:Category:Palestine templates]]. If such a template could be created, then the images could be put there, and both templates could be used at the bottom of articles about depopulated villages. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 23:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::I agree with Al Ameer son. However, I don't know enough about template coding either. -- [[User:Nudve|Nudve]] ([[User talk:Nudve|talk]]) 11:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


I did a little survey of infoboxes or navboxes of this type. Images in infoboxes are very rare. A few - for example, [[Template:National Parks of Norway]] - have images, but the vast majority have none - see, for example, [[Template:Slavery]], [[Template:Mountain Meadows massacre series]], [[Template:Sept11]], [[Template:Al-Jihad]]. These are all examples of boxes that are similar to this template, in that a picture could certainly have been included, yet the authors chose not to include one. Not that I think we can draw any conclusions from this. Personally, I don't think the images are irrelevant - the template is about depopulation and these are pictures of people depopulating - and I think pictures always make something better; on the other hand, the pictures don't make navigating any easier, they just make the box prettier, if that is a word that can be used about information on human suffering.
In spite of their mother's efforts, Bayron and Catalina's situation is filled with poverty and need. Catalina is a beautiful young woman but not as voluptuous as her friends, who use this as their ticket to render sexual services as "call girls" to the powerful men that are part of the drug trafficking world.


I do have another issue with this template, however, and one that is much more profound. This infobox needs a source. The box is a sort of navbox, pointing to articles on the individual villages. However, for more than half the villages there is no article. Normally, I would expect to see references in each of the individual articles, which would in turn account for the reliability of the infobox. In this case, though, where many individual articles are missing, I think there needs to be a source given for the information in the box.
Yesica, Catalina's best friend, entered the world of "call girls" with her own business: recruiting, selecting, and leading groups of women for whom the drug traffickers pay in advance to receive sexual services. Yesica leads Catalina by the hand into perdition, convincing her that this is the only way she has to get away from her poverty.


Ideally, the source or sources for the list of villages should be in the box itself, but if there is nowhere to put it, I suggest that at least we list the sources on the talk page. This way, if the information in the box is challenged, we will be able to cite something. --[[User:Ravpapa|Ravpapa]] ([[User talk:Ravpapa|talk]]) 15:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Once inside, Catalina falls into the manipulative hands of Lorena (Yesica's equivalent in Mexico) who, together with Martinez, an important member of the Juarez Cartel, convinces inexperienced young women from Colombia to undergo breast surgery as a means of obtaining better life in another country. What they don't know is that in reality he uses them as "mules", sending them to Mexico while smuggling cocaine in their implants.


:Thanks for the infobox and navbox info. A possible link would be to: [[List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict]]. It looks like Ynhockey beat me to it, and has added the link to the template title.
Catalina, dazzled by a world of riches and a life full of luxuries, decides not to continue her relationship with her boyfriend Albeiro, a young man from her town who has very few ambitions, but loves her with all his heart. She decides to search for someone who can pay for or finance her surgery of silicon breast implants since, according to her belief, this is the one thing that will allow her the life she so longs for.


:There are many images in military conflict infoboxes. See [[Template:Infobox Military Conflict]]. See the many articles it is used in: [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox Military Conflict]]. See also the many templates listed at [[:Category:Military infobox templates]] and [[:Category:War and conflict templates]]. Some of them have images too. --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 02:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
With a series of obstacles and setbacks, Catalina will have to endure humiliation, physical and mental abuse, which will finally lead her to personal tragedy, as a result of her immeasurable ambition.
::The problem is that this isn't an infobox, it's a navigation box. Two completely different things. I've seen images in navboxes too, but they're always tiny and unobtrusive, and always highly relevant to the content. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 09:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


:::I think the distinction between navbox and infobox in this case is a bit artificial, and I think the images ''are'' relevant to the subject. So I agree with [[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] that we should leave them.
===Origins===
[[Image:Ssnhpt00434132.png|thumb|right|250px|On-screen title card]]


:::What about sources? --[[User:Ravpapa|Ravpapa]] ([[User talk:Ravpapa|talk]]) 09:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
[[Gustavo Bolivar]]'s heroine is a ''prepago'', or "pre-paid girl," which means she sells her services around-the-clock for a set period, hoping to make extra money.and get laid. [http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34864] The screenwriter says ''Paraíso'' highlights an unflattering part of his country: teenagers in the Colombian narco-culture getting the breast implants. He explained in July, 2007,
::::I don't see how it is 'artificial'. Infoboxes are supposed to have images, and every infobox on Wikipedia has a slot for an image at the top. Navigation boxes, on the other hand, do not. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 09:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


:::::The reason it is artificial is that most of the villages do not have articles. So there is nowhere to navigate to. But, as I said before, the images aren't the real problem here, the real problem here is that the box contains original information (the names of the villages) with no supporting documentation. Where is the source for this list of villages? --[[User:Ravpapa|Ravpapa]] ([[User talk:Ravpapa|talk]]) 10:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
<blockquote>When I wrote it, I never imagined that such a local story could transcend. What happens is that it touches a theme that is indeed universal: the beauty based in vanity and its connection with money.... No book before had denounced in such bad terms the drug dealers, the ignorant mothers who confuse the love for their daughters with pimping, and the unscrupulous plastic surgeons. [http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/2007/07/11/2007-07-11_nbcs_boob_job.html]</blockquote>


== Sources ==
Bolívar says the story is based on real-life conditions facing child prostitutes in the town of [[Pereira, Colombia|Pereira]]. There he met two girls who were desperate for silicone breast implants. One told him that she got her operation in exchange for sex. Unfortunately, the doctor used a pair of used implants that led to allergic reactions and infection. [http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34864]


::::::The only reason that the villages don't all (?) have articles is that there is rampant denialism going on. The Palestinians own accounts of what happened (collected fairly carefully at places such as [http://www.palestineremembered.com PalestineRemembered.com]) are condemned by people who would be outraged if POV editors harassed the stories of other victims, in the project or out of it. I think we should proceed as if "dependable" sources for details on these villages will be found and will be inserted. (Incidentally, I'm not brave enough to claim that PR.com is currently an RS, only that much of the information has been collected and could almost certainly be inserted right now if we we were working to policy. Kicking bad sources out of the project is currently more important than opening the door to good ones). [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 10:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
==Cast==
:::::::I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying that the source for this list is [http://www.palestineremembered.com PalestineRemembered.com], which you do not consider a reliable source? --[[User:Ravpapa|Ravpapa]] ([[User talk:Ravpapa|talk]]) 11:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
+
::::::::I'm saying that I have an aversion to unreliable sources so strong that I don't even check www.palestineremembered.com for reliability. However, it (or something like it) is the only place we're going to get details of most of the depopulated villages, and it's to such sources we need to look. When the project operates consistent principles as regards reliable sources, we'll toss out 100s of the ones we're using and allow in either PR.com, or a more careful version of the same thing. It would be outrageous if we fail to carry on with the parts of this project we are allowed to get on with simply because of the severe prejudice that exists against these particular victims and their testimony. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 13:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
''In Order of Appearance:'' <!-- '''Don't change it!! Don't disorder!!''' -->


:::::::::I'm sorry, I still don't think I understand what you are saying. Is this an accurate summary?
{| class="wikitable"
|- bgcolor="#CCCCCC"
! Actor || Character || Known as
|-
|[[Carmen Villalobos]] || Catalina Santana || ''Main heroine; aspires to be an actress; lives with Marcial''
|-
|[[Catherine Siachoque]]|| Doña Hilda Santana || ''Catalina and Bayron's mother; loves Albeiro''
|-
|María Fernanda Yépez || Yésica "La diabla" || ''Catalina's best friend; pre-paid girl''
|-
|[[Aylin Mujica]] || Lorena Magallanes || ''Works with Martínez; mother of Julieta; in prison''
|-
|Juan Diego Sánchez || Byron Santana|| ''Hilda's son, Catalina's brother who works as a hired killer; loves Ximena;murdered in motorcycle accident''
|-
|Fabián Ríos || Albeiro Manrique || ''Catalina's long term boyfriend and Hilda's lover; Hilda's boyfriend''
|-
|Gregorio Pernía || Aurelio "Titi" Jaramillo || ''Drugdealer; in love with Catalina, villain''
|-
|Guillermo Quintanilla || Benjamin "Mariño" Martínez || ''Works with Lorena and is in love with her; in prison''
|-
|Alejandra Pinzón || Paola || ''Catalina's friend; pre-paid girl, wants a deeper relationship with Titi''
|-
|Linda Baldrich || Natalia || ''Trafficked with drugs in breasts; later held captive by Fernando Rey; owns a hot dog cart''
|-
|Carolina Sepúlveda || Ximena || ''Catalina's friend, in love with Bayron, pre-paid girl''
|-
|Carolina Betancourt || Vanessa || ''Catalina's friend; pre-paid girl; jota's girlfriend''
|-
|Laura Londoño || Lina || ''Trafficked with drugs in breasts; later held captive by Fernando Rey; owns a hot dog cart''
|-
|[[Sofia Stamatiades]] || Julieta || ''Lorena's daughter; later held captive by Fernando Rey; became friends with Natalia and Lina and later she bought them a hot dog cart
|-
|Roberto Mateos || José Miguel Cárdenas || ''Drug dealer; in prison''
|-
|[[Gabriel Porras]] || Fernando Rey || ''In love with Catalina; Drug Dealer and friend of Martínez, villain; killed by Lorena''
|-
|Ramiro Meneses || Dark Man || ''Drug-dealer''
|-
|Danilo Santos || Cardona || ''Chief of Titi, partner of Morón, interested in Catalina, villain''
|-
|Alí Humar || Pablo Morón || ''Chief of the drug dealers; in prison''
|-
|Juan Pablo Shuk || Mauricio Contento || ''Colombian surgeon who implants drugs in augmented breasts; slept with Catalina''
|-
|César Mora || Marcial Barreto ||''Retired drug dealer; in love with Catalina; tries to buy the crown for Catalina''
|-
|Nestor Alfonso Rojas || Caballo|| ''One of the three who raped Catalina, Martinez's Partner ; later killed''
|-
|Rafael Uribe Ochoa || Orlando || ''One of the three who raped Catalina, Martinez's partner; later killed''
|-
|Víctor Rodríguez || Jorge || ''One of the three who raped Catalina, Martinez's partner''
|-
|Jorge Sánchez || Lambón || ''Workman of Morón and Cardona''
|-
|Emerson Yañez || Balin || ''Works with Bayron as a hitman; in love with Paola;murdered in motorcycle accident ''
|-
|Paula Barreto|| ? ||
|-
|Isabel Alzate|| ? ||
|-
|Daniel Rincón|| ? ||
|-
|Lucho Velazco|| ? ||
|-
|Linda Lucía Callejas|| ? ||
|-
|Martha Isabel Bolaños || Margot || "Model" scout who traffics young girls''
|-
|Marcela Botero|| ? ||
|-
|Rodrigo Obregón || Robert || ''Martinez's partner in Los Angeles''
|-
|Andrés Martínez || Alberto Bermejo || ''Cardona's plastic surgeon partner''
|-
|Marisol Pérez|| ? ||
|-
|Luís Fernando Ramírez|| ? ||
|-
|Andrés Felipe Alzalte|| ? ||
|-
|Angeli Moncayo|| ? ||
|-
|Astrid Junguito|| Doña Mariela || ''Mother of Albeiro''
|-
|Julio Pachón|| ? ||
|-
|Edmundo Troya || Don Antonio|| ''Chief of the bikini fabric; steals Hilda's work;commits suicide''
|-
|Neru|| Black Man in the bar ||
|-
|Sigifredo Vega|| Director || ''Director of the high school, father of Natalia; impregnates Cristina''
|-
|Orlando Valenzuela|| ? ||
|-
|Gustavo Yañez|| Sadhanii || "Under cover DEA detective, and Chief of Cardona in California"
|-
|Merena Dimont|| ? ||
|-
|Fernando Larranaga|| ? ||
|-
|Carolina Mallarino|| ? ||
|-
|Jhon Alexander Ortiz Paez|| ||
|-
|Juan Carlos Pérez|| ||
|-
|Liz Barrera|| ||
|-
|Maria Margarita Giraldo|| ? ||''wife of director of the college, Natalia's mother''
|-
|Jhon Mario Rivera|| ||
|-
|Luís Fernando Bohórquez|| ||
|-
|Rafael Mejia|| ||
|-
|Manuel Busquet|| || ''Director of the underwear fabric "Vanessa"''
|-
|Adriana Hernández|| ||
|-
|Moises Cadavid || Benjamin || ''Yesica's friend in Bogota''
|-
|Hotzman Nuñez|| ||
|-
|Monica Ossa|| ||
|-
|Germán Arias || ? ||''Police at the airport''
|-
|Jairo Sanabria || ? ||''Police at the airport''
|-
|Edgar Anexen || ? ||
|-
|Cristian Tappan || ? ||
|-
|Manuel Pachon || ? || " Priest"
|-
|Mónica Pardo || Cristina || ''Raped by director of high school; pregnant''
|-
|Jose Omar Murillo || Pelambre || ''Henchman of Marcial; in love with Catalina''
|-
|Francisco Bolivar || ? ||
|-
|Maria Leon Arias || Griselda || ''Antonio's wife''
|-
|Fernanda Gonzalez || ? ||
|-
|Alberto Itarraga || ? ||
|-
|Hernan Monsalve || ? ||
|-
|Angela Triana || ? ||
|-
|Sharmel Altamirano || ? || ''Plane Stewardess''
|-
|Miguel Angel Ramirez || ? ||
|-
|Mario Alberto Parra || ? ||
|-
|Edgar|| ? ||''Surgeon in Mexico who removes drugs''
|-
|Eugenio Juan-Berrios|| ? || ''A Crazy Mexican''
|-
|Aurelio Jaramillo|| ||
|}
|}
[http://www.eltiempo.com/entretenimiento/tvfarandula/noticias/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-4167060.html]


:::::::::*You have a strong aversion to unreliable sources.
==Crew==
[[Image:Withounopar-21011.jpg|thumb|right|180px|Publicity poster (from left: Ximena, Yésica, Catalina, Vanessa, Paola)]]
'''''Original Story Based on a Book “Without Tits There is no Paradise” by'''''
*[[Gustavo Bolívar]]


:::::::::*You consider PR.com to be an unreliable source.
'''''Scriptwriter'''''
*[[Gustavo Bolívar]]


:::::::::*PR.com is the source of this list.
'''''Costume Design / Mexico'''''
*Alejandro Gastelum


:::::::::*But since PR.com is the only source we have, we should accept it.
'''''Art Direction / Mexico'''''
*Alejandro Caraza


:::::::::Is that what you are saying? --[[User:Ravpapa|Ravpapa]] ([[User talk:Ravpapa|talk]]) 13:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
'''''Production Supervisor / Mexico'''''
*Martha Godoy


(unindent). I have no idea which villages were depopulated during the time period around the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Are there before and after maps with enough detail? This might be correlated with lists from other sites. Some of the villages may no longer be labeled on the maps after the war. What did PalestineRemembered.com use as sources for its info? --[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 19:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
'''''2nd Unit Director / Mexico'''''
*Max Zunino

'''''Unit Manager / Mexico'''''
*Víctor Horcasitas

'''''Costume Design'''''
*Patricia Rodríguez

'''''Set Design'''''
*Jorge Parra

'''''Production Design'''''
*Romel Amador

'''''Art Direction'''''
*Piedad Arango

'''''Directors of Photography'''''
*Juan Pablo Puentes
*Edgar Neisa

'''''Makeup Artist'''''
*Adriana Ortíz

'''''Camera Direction'''''
*Orlando Pirela
*Wilmer Bañol

'''''Incidental Music'''''
*Miguel de Narváez

'''''Sound Design'''''
*Héctor Cardona Jr.

'''''Editor'''''
*José Luís Varón

'''''Production Chief'''''
*Jorge Sastoque Roa

'''''Directors'''''
*Ramiro Meneses
*Miguel Varoni

'''''Executive Producer / Mexico'''''
*M-K Kennedy

'''''Executive Producer'''''
*[[Hugo León Ferrer]]

'''''The Production of'''''
*[[Telemundo|Telemundo Studios]]
*[[RTI Colombia]]

==Original Broadcast Dates, Titles and Ratings==
Telemundo's broadcast debut on Monday night (June 16) of the provocative novela, "Sin Senos No Hay Paraíso," ("Without Breasts There is No Paradise") attracted a record network audience during the 10 p.m. time period of nearly 750,000 among adults 18 to 49, per [[Nielsen]] Media Research.

With new numbers the novel is continuing being the most watchable novel for Telemundo with 881,000 among 18 to 49, per [[Nielsen]] Media Research. This is 11% more then the audience in July and 20% more then of the June.

The Last week of the August the novel had the most high score of audience with 949,000 among adults of 18 to 49, per [[Nielsen]] Media research. It's 31% share of the spanish language television Networks of the week.

The novela was the network's most-watched premiere episode to date in the time slot, ahead of the network premieres of ''[[Tierra de Pasiones]]'' and "[[Victoria (Telemundo Series)|Victoria]]," per the Nielsen Television Index (NTI).

'''''June:'''''

*06.16.2008----------Episode 001 ... Sueños Lejanos------------------7.0
*06.17.2008----------Episode 002 ... Búsqueda Riesgosa---------------6.6
*06.18.2008----------Episode 003 ... Trampa Ambiciosa----------------6.4
*06.19.2008----------Episode 004 ... Inocente Peligro----------------6.7
*06.20.2008----------Episode 005 ... Rumbos Diferentes---------------6.8
*06.23.2008----------Episode 006 ... Sorpresas Amargas---------------5.6
*06.24.2008----------Episode 007 ... Crueles Consecuencias-----------5.6
*06.25.2008----------Episode 008 ... Ojo por Ojo---------------------6.1
*06.26.2008----------Episode 009 ... Venganza Cumplida---------------6.9
*06.27.2008----------Episode 010 ... Espejismo de Vida---------------6.3
*06.30.2008----------Episode 011 ... Camino Espinoso-----------------7.5

'''''July:'''''

*07.01.2008----------Episode 012 ... Amor vs Interés-----------------6.4
*07.02.2008----------Episode 013 ... Libertad Pérdida----------------8.0
*07.03.2008----------Episode 014 ... Esperanza Frustrada-------------6.8
*07.04.2008----------Episode 015 ... Peligroso Deseo-----------------???
*07.07.2008----------Episode 016 ... Anheles Frustrados--------------6.6
*07.08.2008----------Episode 017 ... Hora del Desquite---------------6.8
*07.09.2008----------Episode 018 ... Propuesta Tentativa-------------6.8
*07.10.2008----------Episode 019 ... Trampas Inesperadas-------------6.8
*07.11.2008----------Episode 020 ... Riesgo de Vida------------------5.8
*07.14.2008----------Episode 021 ... Pacto Pagado--------------------7.1
*07.15.2008----------Episode 022 ... Ardiente y Sensual--------------7.1
*07.16.2008----------Episode 023 ... Pasaporte al Cielo--------------???
*07.17.2008----------Episode 024 ... Juego del Destino---------------6.3
*07.18.2008----------Episode 025 ... Rivales de Amor-----------------???
*07.21.2008----------Episode 026 ... Intruso Deseado-----------------7.4
*07.22.2008----------Episode 027 ... Mentiras Piadosas---------------7.6
*07.23.2008----------Episode 028 ... Hipócrita Conciencia------------7.2
*07.24.2008----------Episode 029 ... Cuenta de Cobro-----------------7.4
*07.25.2008----------Episode 030 ... Coincidencias Peligrosas--------6.3
*07.28.2008----------Episode 031 ... Aventuras Frustradas------------6.9
*07.29.2008----------Episode 032 ... Extrañas Ironías----------------???
*07.30.2008----------Episode 033 ... La Muerte Acecha----------------7.4
*07.31.2008----------Episode 034 ... Billete y Plomo-----------------7.3

'''''August:'''''

*08.01.2008----------Episode 035 ... Juegos Seductores---------------???
*08.04.2008----------Episode 036 ... Rogando Humillación-------------7.2
*08.05.2008----------Episode 037 ... Jugando con Candela-------------8.0
*08.07.2008----------Episode 038 ... Luz Perdida---------------------6.6
*08.08.2008----------Episode 039 ... Deudas Pendientes---------------7.0
*08.11.2008----------Episode 040 ... Promesas de Aire----------------7.5
*08.12.2008----------Episode 041 ... Balas de Verdad-----------------7.6
*08.13.2008----------Episode 042 ... Todo a la Luz-------------------7.7
*08.14.2008----------Episode 043 ... Peligro Latente-----------------7.4
*08.15.2008----------Episode 044 ... Tácticas Fallidas---------------7.6
*08.18.2008----------Episode 045 ... Hora del Desquite---------------7.6
*08.19.2008----------Episode 046 ... Ambiciones Traicioneras---------7.7
*08.21.2008----------Episode 047 ... Hechos Oscuros------------------7.8
*08.22.2008----------Episode 048 ... Vida Vendida--------------------6.0
*08.25.2008----------Episode 049 ... Culpas Ajenas-------------------7.3
*08.26.2008----------Episode 050 ... Reproche de Muerte--------------7.5
*08.27.2008----------Episode 051 ... Cosas Desechables---------------7.8
*08.29.2008----------Episode 052 ... Enfrentar Temores---------------7.9

'''''September:'''''

*09.01.2008----------Episode 053 ... Promesas Desconocidas-----------7.8
*09.02.2008----------Episode 054 ... Enfrentar Temores---------------8.0
*09.03.2008----------Episode 055 ... Diablos y Ángeles---------------8.7
*09.04.2008----------Episode 056 ... Trampa Angelical----------------7.5
*09.05.2008----------Episode 057 ... Dulce Tragedia------------------8.6
*09.08.2008----------Episode 058 ... Amistad de Hierro---------------8.3
*09.09.2008----------Episode 059 ... Traición a la Mexicana----------8.3
*09.11.2008----------Episode 060 ... Condena de Palabra--------------8.9
*09.12.2008----------Episode 061 ... Sentencia Declarada-------------???
*09.15.2008----------Episode 062 ... Sueños de Vanidad---------------8.0
*09.16.2008----------Episode 063 ... Mundo de Plástico---------------8.9
*09.17.2008----------Episode 064 ... Perdiendo Terreno---------------8.7
*09.18.2008----------Episode 065 ... Reñida Competencia--------------7.3
*09.19.2008----------Episode 066 ... ¿Sonrisas para el Titi?---------8.5
*09.22.2008----------Episode 067 ... Sentencia Final-----------------8.8
*09.23.2008----------Episode 068 ... Corona Reñida-------------------9.9
*09.25.2008----------Episode 069 ... Obsesiones Perversas------------9.3
*09.29.2008----------Episode 070 ... Jugar Con Candela---------------9.4
*09.30.2008----------Episode 071 ... Malas Decisiones----------------9.2

'''''October:'''''

*10.01.2008----------Episode 072 ... Sueños que Mueren---------------10.1
*10.03.2008----------Episode 073 ... El Último Adiós-----------------???------20 minute episode.
*10.06.2008----------Episode 074 ... Amor que Mata-------------------8.7
*10.08.2008----------Episode 075 ... Actos Valientes-----------------9.1
*10.09.2008----------Episode 076 ... Golpe de Traición---------------
*10.10.2008----------Episode 077 ... Balas de Rencor-----------------???------20 minute episode.
*10.13.2008----------Episode 078 ...
*10.14.2008----------Episode 079 ...
*10.16.2008----------Episode 080 ...
*10.17.2008----------Episode 081 ...------20 minute episode.
*10.20.2008----------Episode 082 ...------20 minute episode.
*10.21.2008----------Episode 083 ...
*10.22.2008----------Episode 084 ...
*10.23.2008----------Episode 085 ...
*10.24.2008----------Episode 086 ...------20 minute episode.
*10.27.2008----------Episode 087 ...
*10.28.2008----------Episode 088 ...
*10.29.2008----------Episode 089 ...
*10.30.2008----------Episode 090 ...
*10.31.2008----------Episode 091 ...------20 minute SPECIAL EPISODE.



20 Minutes Episode is a merged One episode to two parts. This kind of Episodes air on Fridays mostly since [[3 October]].

==Development==
[[Image:Noparadisenewlogo033.png|thumb|right|150px|Original title card]]
[[Image:Sintetaslogo013967.jpg|thumb|right|150px|Colombian title card]]
[[Telemundo]] is expected to air the serial from Monday to Friday over about 15 weeks. It is an extended version of the story, which only ran 30 episodes in Colombia.[http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117973012.html?categoryid=14&cs=1] (The original version's finale scored a record 63 percent share of Colombian viewers.[http://www.elperiodico.com/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=46&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=427364&idseccio_PK=1029]) Also, the actresses playing teenagers are clearly older than their roles; star Carmen Villalobos was 24 when filming began.

After this show was unveiled at Telemundo's May 2008 upfront, Bob Sassone of ''[[AOL]] Television'' remarked that this show "gives the term 'upfront' a whole new meaning."[http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/05/12/telemundo-loves-breasts/] In addition, the network had talked about adding a major co-production partner to the telenovela.[http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117973012.html?categoryid=14&cs=1]
As with most of its soap operas, Telemundo broadcasts English subtitles as closed captions on CC3.

===Name===
Telemundo originally billed the show as "Sin Tetas No Hay Paraíso" [http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6485604.html]. The network was expected to soften the title, because many consider the word ''tetas'' a vulgar equivalent of the English word "tits."[http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34864] In the end, the word ''senos'' was used to avoid conflict with [[FCC]] regulators over indecent languange. Creator Bolivar said the change was a pity; he also said he toned down some scenes for the US telenovela format.[http://actualidad.terra.es/sociedad/articulo/adaptan-tetas-no-hay-paraiso-2547689.htm] Sin Tetas No Hay Paraiso will be aired on Televisa Network on XEW / El Canal De Las Estrellas taking over the prime time that is being occupied by Fuego en La Sangre. Sin Tetas No Hay Paraiso will be the first production ( in 27 years ) not made in Mexico that will be given the best prime schedule.

===English Version===
:''See [[Without Breasts There Is No Paradise]]''
[[NBC Universal]] commissioned both English and Spanish versions of the Colombian serial to be produced independently.[http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/entertainment-20070614000000-nbcuniversalscores.html?rss=1] The [[Without Breasts There Is No Paradise|English version]], produced by [[Universal Media Studios]] with a different cast and script, is in development for [[NBC]][http://nbcumv.com/telemundo/release_detail.nbc/entertainment-20070614000000-nbcuniversalscores.html?rss=1] during the 2009-2010 season - or beyond.[http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2008/06/sin-tetas-on-te.html] It will likely deviate from the usual telenovela format, along the lines of [[Ugly Betty]].[http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/jun/30/telenovela-gets-new-life-english/][http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070716/THINGS0206/707160383/1001/news]

===Book Release===
[[Image:Paraiso517528.jpg|thumb|right|100px]]
[[Random House|Random House Spanish]] owns the US rights to Bolivar’s original. It plans to work with [[Telemundo]] to cross-promote the book and the series. The publisher acquired the best-seller from Colombian publisher Oveja Negra Editores earlier in 2007.[http://www.criticasmagazine.com/article/CA6441162.html]

===Book===
* {{cite book
| author = Bolivar, Gustavo
| title = ''Sin Tetas No Hay Paraiso''
| location= Bogotá | publisher=Oveja Negra
| year = 2006
| pages = 300 pp
| id = ISBN 84-934791-3-6
|
}}

==External links==
{{commonscat|Breast implants}}
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1dx8oRI9BQ Telemundo teaser trailer] (Spanish dialogue with English voiceover and subtitles)
*[http://tv.telemundo.yahoo.com/sinsenosnohayparaiso/ Sin Senos No Hay Paraiso] Official Telemundo Website (Spanish)
*[http://www.canalcaracol.com/plant_contenido.asp?hid_id_menu=206 Sin Tetas No Hay Paraiso] Official Canal Caracol Website (Spanish)
*''[http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34864 Measuring the Cost of Paradise by Cup Size]''
*''[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/09/19/entertainment/e062448D66.DTL Breast-Obsessed TV Show a Colombian Hit]''
*''[http://www.miguelangelsilvestre.net Webpage from the actor Miguel Angel Silvestre]''
*''[http://foro.telenovela-world.com/n4/list.php?f=493 Telenovela-World''] (bilingual)

{{Telemundo 2007-2008 telenovelas}}
{{Telemundo 2008-2009 telenovelas}}

[[Category:2000s American television series]]
[[Category:2008 telenovelas]]
[[Category:2008 television series debuts]]
[[Category:2008 television series endings]]
[[Category:American telenovelas]]
[[Category:American TV series based on telenovelas]]
[[Category:Spanish language telenovelas]]
[[Category:Telemundo network shows]]
[[Category:Telemundo telenovelas]]
[[Category:Television programs based on novels]]
[[Category:Television series by NBC Universal Television]]
[[Category:Colombian telenovelas]]

[[mk:Без гради нема рај]]

Revision as of 19:49, 10 October 2008

Image in template

This template really shouldn't have an image. Also it shouldn't be called 'Nakba'. The reasons are as follows:

  1. The image serves no purpose other than to dramatize the template, which is against Wikipedia's principles of neutrality (WP:NPOV). It does not provide more information to the article. It would be like including a particularly thin Holocaust survivor's picture in a Holocaust navbox, or a picture of a bloodied Israeli killed in a terrorist attack in a navbox dealing with terrorist attacks.
  2. The image is harmful because it significantly increases the template's height, especially on 4:3 monitors/resolutions (e.g. 1024x768).
  3. The Nakba is an Arabic word which should not be predominantly used in the English Wikipedia. The consensus right now is Palestinian exodus. However, in this case neither should be used, because this navbox isn't about the Palestinian exodus, but specifically about depopulated villages, and should be titled thus.

I will also notify WP:IPCOLL of this discussion.

-- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Can the the text be word-wrapped around the image? Then it would take up hardly any space. I'm not sure what you mean by "dramatize" the template, I can't imagine anyone objecting to a Holocaust image (say, a Gestapo "doctor" dividing a line of arrivals or the famous gate) providing it doesn't show people in immediate distress.
The word Nakba has long since passed into the English language - it's over 30 times more popular than "Palestinian Exodus" by the Google test (635,000 hits to 19,600). I don't know what the Nakba is about, unless it's de-populated villages. PRtalk 13:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by word-wrapped around the image. It's not prose so word wrap wouldn't affect it anyway. What do you have in mind?
About dramatizing, that's exactly the point - using the Arabic term and having a picture of someone suffering does unnecessarily dramatize the event (not to mention there's absolutely no argument for keeping the image). Wikipedia's job is to report facts, not put a spin on them. The word nakba is certainly not more common than English terms - it refers to a general event, which also has to do with the term "Palestinian refugee(s)" in English, which passes the 'Google test'. But that's beside the point because per WP:NC, WP:ENGLISH takes precedence over WP:COMMONNAME either way. Shoah is a much more well-known word in English than nakba, but you don't see anyone using it in place of Holocaust in the English Wikipedia. That combined with the fact that many worldwide don't agree with the term nakba at all, which also makes it problematic per WP:NPOV when used unnecessarily.
About I don't know what the Nakba is about, unless it's de-populated villages. - you seem to be missing the point. The point is that nakba is a much more general term than just depopulated villages, so it would be a strange name for such a template (even if none of the above issues existed). It would be like making a template listing only Nazi death camps and nothing else, and then titling it Shoah. Assuming none of the above issues existed, one would expect a nakba template to include persons associated with the event, possibly some notable villages, notable massacres like Deir Yassin, etc. - not a huge list of villages.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Applying the Google Test to ("Palestinian refugees" + "Palestinian exodus") vs "Nakba" may be some form of error on your part - it bears no relation to the claim that the "Palestinian Exodus" is the consensus term. The Holocaust/Shoah comparison seems irrelevant, the English term is 15 times more popular than the non-English. Please tell us what Nakba really means/implies. PRtalk 11:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I think using 'palestinian refugees' in a search is pretty fair. Even the Wikipedia article says in the lead sentence: the Nakba ... refers to the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem during and after the 1948 Palestine war. Moreover, in Arab-speaking countries it also refers to the 1948 war in general, so that can be added to the English search. It should also be obvious that nakba is not the widely-accepted English term by the top Google results - almost all Arabic-run pages like alnakba.org, electronicintifada, palestineremembered.com, nakba60.org.uk, hanini.org, etc. By comparison, the top results for Shoah are mostly websites clearly not affiliated with Israelis or other Hebrew-speakers. Still we use English. Please keep in mind that a Google test taken verbatim without analysis doesn't really say anything, and should not be used as the main point of an argument. Do you have actual proof that the nakba is indeed the most common term for the event in English?
However, all of the above is deviating from the real issue - whether nakba is a proper title for a list of depopulated villages. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I looked at the "Nakba" entry and noticed "refers to the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem" too - I read that to mean it definitely refers to an event, and is not the name for a group of people. I'm happy with what you say about the use of the word in Israel, but the Google test (crude though it is) is pretty conclusive as regards its use in the English-speaking world.
The image is a different problem, I think it's kinda helpful, but the space taken up is a real issue. Is it really not possible to word-wrap around it? PRtalk 18:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
What do you have to say about the fact that most of the top results using nakba are Arabic-run websites, in contrast to Shoah, which are not run by Israelis? I think it completely discredits the basic Google test in this case (although as I said, the various English terms for the Arabic term nakba already clearly outperform it in search results).
About the image: I'm still not sure what you're talking about. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Can we stick to arguments that are either in policy or are a reasonable extension of existing policy? It may appear that we hate and distrust Palestinians sources, but if they're writing in the language of English then they are English-language sites. (You're wrong anyway, even Israeli newspapers use the word and it is 30 times more popular than your alternative). Redefining "Palestinian Refugees" so as to become an event (Nakba) didn't fly and nor will this. PRtalk 15:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Images in new location

Timeshifer: I'm glad that you moved the images to a less harmful location, but that does not address the concerns I raised above, about the relevancy of the images. What is your position on the issue? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are talking about. Please explain exactly what is the problem with the current images. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the long delay. The problem is that the images are redundant and have no purpose other than to dramatize the event, which is a violation of WP:NPOV. They are the image equivalent of peacock terms, which should be avoided. Moreover, the images are not directly relevant to the depopulated villages in particular - they are more relevant to the Palestinian exodus in general, and belong in that article alone. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I still do not understand your objections to the images. None of the guidelines you referred to apply in this case. Your objections seem to be along the lines of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The Palestinian refugee images are relevant to articles about depopulated Palestinian villages where the old population became Palestinian refugees. The images in question are of people who could be refugees from any of those villages. They are refugees during the period in question. Images are not redundant to text. Both are important and encouraged in Wikipedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Timeshifter, although there isn't a precise rule against images in navigation boxes (I guess this hasn't been a problem - where have you seen navboxes with images?), but my argument about violating POV still stands. In fact, Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates specifically mentions the NPOV issue in disadvantage #3, and excessive size (which also applies here) in disadvantage #2. Another point which I think clearly illustrates that these images shouldn't be there is: As with categories, all the articles in a template should substantially deal with the subject of the box. Ask yourself, is the subject of this box something that would be mentioned on every article in it? - the answer is no - these images aren't even linked from any of the template's sub-pages, and are not relevant. There's nothing WP:IDONTLIKEIT here. On the contrary, I have provided numerous arguments for why the images should be removed, and have not seen a single one for why they should be kept. The procedure in a case like this should be similar to WP:PROD. On a side note, thanks for catching that 'Palestine Remembered' title nonsense. I can see that you are committed to NPOV, so let's have a civil policy-based discussion about the merits of the images. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Disadvantage #3 does not apply because the images do not violate WP:NPOV. Disadvantage #2 does not apply because the template size is not too large. As for whether or not all the cities listed in the template were depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War I wouldn't know. That is not my area of expertise. The images should not be placed directly in the city articles in my opinion. It makes more sense to place the thumbnail images in the template since the images do not relate to specific cities. The refugees could have fled from any of the cities listed in the template. I still do not see any guidelines or policies violated by having these images in the template. Why don't you like these particular images? What images would you prefer in the template? Or do you just not like images? --Timeshifter (talk) 09:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I guess that's where we disagree - both these images clearly violate WP:NPOV (in this context - for reasons already outlined several times - read discussion) and the template is too large even without them, and clearly too large with them. If you want to fix the size problem, it shouldn't be too hard by making a modular template (one module for each district, and one for the images), but that still wouldn't solve the WP:NPOV problem. As Al Ameer son correctly noted, if any images should be used, they should be relevant to the villages (the subject of the template), not the people. Even PR above claimed that the refugees are not inherently part of the same topic as the villages, so I don't see where your objection stems from. I still don't see a single argument in favor of keeping the images, other than WP:ILIKEIT. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Al Ameer son referred to a template that did not exist: Template:Palestinian refugees. See the rest of my reply to him farther down. I don't see how PR said what you claim. Using a template for each district alone would be OK if each district template linked to a page listing all the villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and if the total number of villages in all the districts was listed in the district templates. This way there is no minimization of the scale of the depopulation. Minimization would be against WP:NPOV. I have already answered your other points. Please see previous replies. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Is there any argument for keeping the images other than WP:ILIKEIT? By the way, I didn't mean having multiple templates, but having a modular template, which is one template having multiple collapsible sections. I could code that, but first let's solve the problem with the images. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 08:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Images are a part of encyclopedias. This is a long-decided issue. See the Wikimedia Commons. I don't see how a modular template like the one you mentioned (Template:Israel Defense Forces) lessens the total size of the template. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving to left
Timeshifter, "Images are part of encyclopedias" is a WP:ILIKEIT argument. Templates are not part of the prose on Wikipedia and therefore don't need illustrations, and I'm not sure what Wikimedia Commons has to do with this. Please stick to the issue at hand. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me be clearer then. Images are a part of the Wikipedia encyclopedia. The main location of those images is the Wikimedia Commons. Templates and infoboxes can include prose, images, lists, and much more. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The above is based on numerous misconceptions, which I will attempt to clear up.
Firstly, images on Wikipedia are meant for illustration, not for other purposes. This is in fact the first line in the image guideline: Wikipedia contains millions of illustrative images and other media. Please clarify how the two images in this template are illustrative of Palestinian villages.
Secondly, Wikimedia Commons is by no means the main location for images on Wikipedia. It happens to be the location for free images (and Wikipedia uses many non-free images also), for technical reasons. The purpose of Wikimedia Commons is to allow the same image to be used in multiple-language Wikipedias, as well as sister project, as can be clearly understood from the first paragraph of WP:COMMONS.
Again, you are changing the subject without providing any policy-based argument for 1) Why images are relevant to navigation templates (clearly, they are not), and 2) Why these particular images are relevant to this particular template.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I have answered all your points in my previous replies. See also my latest reply to Ravpapa below. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I think there should be a image(s) in the template, but they should be of the villages not the people. That belongs in Template:Palestinian refugees. Also, they shouldn't have their own section but rather be on the side. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The side would be better for the images, but I don't know enough about template code to make the text wrap around the images if they are on the side. Maybe a better template coder can be found to do this. I did not see any template about refugees in here: Category:Palestine templates. If such a template could be created, then the images could be put there, and both templates could be used at the bottom of articles about depopulated villages. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Al Ameer son. However, I don't know enough about template coding either. -- Nudve (talk) 11:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I did a little survey of infoboxes or navboxes of this type. Images in infoboxes are very rare. A few - for example, Template:National Parks of Norway - have images, but the vast majority have none - see, for example, Template:Slavery, Template:Mountain Meadows massacre series, Template:Sept11, Template:Al-Jihad. These are all examples of boxes that are similar to this template, in that a picture could certainly have been included, yet the authors chose not to include one. Not that I think we can draw any conclusions from this. Personally, I don't think the images are irrelevant - the template is about depopulation and these are pictures of people depopulating - and I think pictures always make something better; on the other hand, the pictures don't make navigating any easier, they just make the box prettier, if that is a word that can be used about information on human suffering.

I do have another issue with this template, however, and one that is much more profound. This infobox needs a source. The box is a sort of navbox, pointing to articles on the individual villages. However, for more than half the villages there is no article. Normally, I would expect to see references in each of the individual articles, which would in turn account for the reliability of the infobox. In this case, though, where many individual articles are missing, I think there needs to be a source given for the information in the box.

Ideally, the source or sources for the list of villages should be in the box itself, but if there is nowhere to put it, I suggest that at least we list the sources on the talk page. This way, if the information in the box is challenged, we will be able to cite something. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the infobox and navbox info. A possible link would be to: List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict. It looks like Ynhockey beat me to it, and has added the link to the template title.
There are many images in military conflict infoboxes. See Template:Infobox Military Conflict. See the many articles it is used in: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox Military Conflict. See also the many templates listed at Category:Military infobox templates and Category:War and conflict templates. Some of them have images too. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that this isn't an infobox, it's a navigation box. Two completely different things. I've seen images in navboxes too, but they're always tiny and unobtrusive, and always highly relevant to the content. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the distinction between navbox and infobox in this case is a bit artificial, and I think the images are relevant to the subject. So I agree with Timeshifter that we should leave them.
What about sources? --Ravpapa (talk) 09:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how it is 'artificial'. Infoboxes are supposed to have images, and every infobox on Wikipedia has a slot for an image at the top. Navigation boxes, on the other hand, do not. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The reason it is artificial is that most of the villages do not have articles. So there is nowhere to navigate to. But, as I said before, the images aren't the real problem here, the real problem here is that the box contains original information (the names of the villages) with no supporting documentation. Where is the source for this list of villages? --Ravpapa (talk) 10:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources

The only reason that the villages don't all (?) have articles is that there is rampant denialism going on. The Palestinians own accounts of what happened (collected fairly carefully at places such as PalestineRemembered.com) are condemned by people who would be outraged if POV editors harassed the stories of other victims, in the project or out of it. I think we should proceed as if "dependable" sources for details on these villages will be found and will be inserted. (Incidentally, I'm not brave enough to claim that PR.com is currently an RS, only that much of the information has been collected and could almost certainly be inserted right now if we we were working to policy. Kicking bad sources out of the project is currently more important than opening the door to good ones). PRtalk 10:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying that the source for this list is PalestineRemembered.com, which you do not consider a reliable source? --Ravpapa (talk) 11:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm saying that I have an aversion to unreliable sources so strong that I don't even check www.palestineremembered.com for reliability. However, it (or something like it) is the only place we're going to get details of most of the depopulated villages, and it's to such sources we need to look. When the project operates consistent principles as regards reliable sources, we'll toss out 100s of the ones we're using and allow in either PR.com, or a more careful version of the same thing. It would be outrageous if we fail to carry on with the parts of this project we are allowed to get on with simply because of the severe prejudice that exists against these particular victims and their testimony. PRtalk 13:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I still don't think I understand what you are saying. Is this an accurate summary?
  • You have a strong aversion to unreliable sources.
  • You consider PR.com to be an unreliable source.
  • PR.com is the source of this list.
  • But since PR.com is the only source we have, we should accept it.
Is that what you are saying? --Ravpapa (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

(unindent). I have no idea which villages were depopulated during the time period around the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Are there before and after maps with enough detail? This might be correlated with lists from other sites. Some of the villages may no longer be labeled on the maps after the war. What did PalestineRemembered.com use as sources for its info? --Timeshifter (talk) 19:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sin_senos_no_hay_paraíso&oldid=244432758"