Talk:Saab JAS 39 Gripen/Archive 1

Copyrighted text

Some text of this article is from http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/ and http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/39altern/altdesigns.html. It was posted by 82.182.143.16 in this edit. I have e-mailed the author to verify that the text was uploaded by him or with his permission. Here's the reply I got:

From:      Urban Fredriksson <e-mail omitted>
To:        [[User talk:Lupo|Lupo]]'s e-mail address elided
Subject:   Re: Your Saab Gripen text on Wikipedia
Date sent: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:35:38 +0200 (MET DST)

> Could you please deny or confirm that
> 1) You are the copyright holder of this text

Yes, I wrote the original text years ago.

> 2) the text is posted to Wikipedia with your permission, and

No, I didn't know about it.
But I probably would have allowed it if asked.

> 3) that you authorize the re-licensing of this text under the
>    GNU Free Documentation License, which allows anybody to edit
>    and re-distribute this text, even for commercial purposes?

Since it's not the whole web document but only part of it,
the answer to this question is "yes".

Best regards
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson

Thank you, Urban. Lupo 08:09, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Range

I noticed on a number of the other aircraft pages that ferry range is indicated. If so, is the 800km specified in this article the combat range and would it be wise to include the ferry range of 3000km on Urban Fredriksson's website? Edward Sandstig 18:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

800km for a modern fighter seems awfully short. But since its of swedish design and original intention, its probably likely thats how far the aircraft can go with the fuel just on its own. The ferry range of 3000km could be achieved with drop tanks or inflight refueling probably. Jak722 15:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Stop me if I'm wrong, but this article strikes me as being a bit of a sales pitch for the Gripen. Is their anyway of cleaning it up?

ManicParroT 22:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup, it's called the "Edit" button at the top of the page. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 23:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Be more specific. What makes the article feel like a sales pitch? I don't see any of the other fighter aircraft articles mention crashes...
Check the articles on the F-16 and F-15 for reference. Edward Sandstig 20:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the article looks like it's been written by flight enthusiasts who focus on the plane and nothing else. This article should be written in a more nuanced way. Gripen is much more than an aircraft; it has been a huge and controversial undertaking for Sweden and part of a Swedish political game. This is entirely missing in the article. In addition, the recent alledged briberies to sell Gripen to the Czech Republic and South Africa aren't mentioned. In that respect, the article is a sales pitch. There's much to do to fix this article to an acceptable standard. In fact, I think a complete rewrite is warranted here. Relrel 20:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

This page seems to me to be in breach of Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox: "Advertising. Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style."

"Gripen International acts as a prime contracting organization and is responsible for marketing, selling and supporting the Gripen fighter around the world."

"marketing, selling and supporting" is an indication this text was sourced from marketing material because of the redundancy of "marketing" & "selling". One would also expect a company who sells aircraft to support them?

"The totally integrated avionics make it a "programmable" aircraft."

sounds like more marketing, why "_totally_ integrated"? and what does ' "programmable" aircraft' add to the information?

"Gripen affords far more flexibility than earlier generations of combat aircraft"

how? in what way?

"This is especially impressive as the Gripen is a more capable aircraft, with a low purchase price."

"especially impressive" does not sound like the language of an encyclopedia, "low purchase price" sounds like marketing also. Apart from that the rest of the article is good, in my opinion. David Woodward 07:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Jakt Attack Spaning?

Shouldn't the word for "attack" be in Swedish (anfall, IIRC)? 84.231.99.112 06:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

No. The swedish word used for "attack aircraft" is indeed "attack-flygplan", not "anfalls-flygplan" ("flygplan" = aircraft). --J-Star 09:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

AESA

Does the Gripen have an AESA radar or is this still under development? If it does, it ought to be mentioned. It's quite notable. Joffeloff 17:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know th Gripen does not currently have an AESA radar. --J-Star 07:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

BAE Systems involvement

Were not BAE Systems involved in the development of this plane? I am positive I saw some BAE promotional material to this effect. 86.17.246.75 10:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah ive seen something like that too. Ive read on an aircraft recognition handbook about fighters that BAE had some commercial marketing involvement with Saab and the Gripen.Jak722 15:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

According to http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/gripen/ BAe is supplying the main landing gear unit, wing attachment unit, and have been involved in the development of the IHMD together with Saab Aerospace and Denel Cumulus. BAE Astronics have produced the fly-by-wire system together with Lockheed Martin. Gripen International is a joint venture between Saab and BAe intended to market Gripen. /Bengt

Note:
BAe = British Aerospace
BAE = BAE Systems
Sorry for splitting hairs.Mark83 20:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

a hyphen between JAS and 39?

Current pagename JAS"-"39 seems odd to me... isn't it? I feel: Saab 39, Saab Gripen, Saab 39 Gripen, JAS 39, or JAS 39 Gripen, are all acceptable but there shouldn't be any hyphens. See, for instance, sv:lista över Försvarsmaktens flygplan and isn't it obvious to use the space for flygvapnet designations? --marsian 15:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep will request a move. --Edward Sandstig 19:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Edward for your starting the survey! --marsian 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Consensus approved Move. Yanksox 17:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

JAS-39 Gripen → JAS 39 Gripen – Need to use correct designation. See JA 37 Viggen and J 35 Draken Edward Sandstig 19:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support. That's the swedish armed forces website writes it. --J-Star 11:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support as per nomination. --Edward Sandstig 21:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. And there's yet another supporting fact: swedish air force museum page. --marsian 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support Per above. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 03:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• some of the designations on the page I present (swedish air force museum page), such as Sk 60 perhaps should strictly be SK 60 and this capitalisation seem to be applied to the designations after 1964, accorging to sv:Diskussion:Lista över Försvarsmaktens flygplan. --marsian 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Crashes removed

I have removed the crashes section because it's not a common section for aircrafts in Wikipedia. There are many reasons for that. One is that it's very hard to keep this information accurate. Please respect this. Haksve 01:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why should we respect you, when you cant respect us? You've broken the Three-revert rule by removing the same content 7 / seven times when warned about discussing it the talk page first, you have done exactly the same on the NN wikipedia and disrespect us for claimng were not able to keep it accurate. And why should only a few wikis remove this section upon your command while others not? And you want respect? Let me tell you, this is wikipedia, edited by billions of users each day, there is no big problem keeping lists accurate, history has shown. And adding lists to other aircrafts notable for crashing, would be relevant too --AndersL 01:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Keeping track of crashes and their reasons can not be accurate because this is military stuff. Billions of wiki users can't help that. Crashes have been removed on many others aircrafts articles, Gripen should be no exception. I'm sorry for seeming disrespectful but please focus on the subject, not on my person. You surely must see the problem with this issue. I wont edit the NN version again, I take it you are responsible for most of it so you can do it yourself. But I assume you have some personal reason for letting crashes be the only section in that article so I doubt that it will be done. --Haksve 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree. Please do not remove it again. Thanks. --Guinnog 03:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And your reasons for disagreeing? --Haksve 04:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The crashes are individually and collectively interesting, verifiable, and tell a lot about the early development of the plane, especially the software development. What is your reason for wanting to delete the section? --Guinnog 05:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

My reason? Read above. Also, the crash-section makes the Gripen article feel biased. Wikipedia should not be part of negative campaigning. But I'll leave it to rest. Anyone else that feel that the Gripen article is biased, feel free to edit. --Haksve 05:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Guinnog, crashes belong to the article and should not be removed. It is the information verifiable and useful plus interesting, there no obvious reasons to remove it. TestPilot 20:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guinnog: The crashes section should stay in. Especially concidering the negative reputation the plane has gotten and the myths that are flowing around saying the aircraft is crash-prone, it is good to have the actual amount of crashes and their causes listed. This does not make the article biased... on the contrary it would be to bias the article by cutting away a section of fact.

For other aircraft articles there are notable crashes mentioned. The Su-35 page has the Paris airshow crash of 1999 mentioned. The DC-10 page has a huge section called Safety Record. All four of the crashes by the JAS 19 are notable. The two first because they received wide attension as they were caught on tape. The third because the plane wasn't at fault. And the fourth because the plane behave very strange and because the cause is still to determined.

Unless you can point to a rule saying that crashes must not be mentioned in aircraft articles, you have nothing to go on. Stop reverting the article Haksve. --J-Star 08:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree. The crash section is relevant as for time being. Gripen has probably been the most reliable fighter aircraft in service the last 10 years. But in the future as more planes might crash, a list will be hard to keep accurate and it will make the page look even more strange. Can you imagine how a list of the F-16's crasches would make it's page look like? As I said, there is a reason why crasches are not listed. Ok, but I will edit the part about the swedish public thinking that Gripen is an embarrassment. It's an authors POV about the publics POV, not relevant. I'm a swede myself so I know it's not even near the truth anyway. --Haksve 08:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this isn't the F-16. This isn't a plane made in an excess of 4000 manufactured, started in the 1970's. You look at what you have right now. Not what you might have in the future or what others have. Cutting out the list now because there might - in the future - be too many crashes to be practically listable makes very little sense. --J-Star 09:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what makes sense? In an aircraft encyclopedia with comparable articles... should an unbiased editor solely give the headline "crasches" to one of the least crash-prone fighter aircrafts ever? My idea is that articles in an encyclopedia should correspond with each other but obviously there are some here that don't think so. This article looks like a joke because of this. --Haksve 10:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

As a Swede I must strongly object to removing the crashes section. "Crashes" and "JAS 39 Gripen" is synonymous to every Swede, and even if Gripen is less prone to crashes than just about any other modern aircraft it's an integral part of the history and development of the aircraft. The first of the crashes were very spectacular and almost got the whole project canceled and second led to very restrictive legislation regarding airshows near populated areas. The crashes section is perhaps the most important part of this article if you are a Swede.. it's the only thing we really care about regarding Gripen. -- Henriok 21:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Which of course can not be true. Fighter aircrafts attract more interest than any manmade objects except the space program perhaps. People care about many things about these planes. Why do you think airshows are so popular in Sweden and elsewhere? So please don't use the word "we". Swedes are no different than others in this respect.83.248.209.36 14:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Your comment doesn't have any obvious connection to mine. It is a fact that the Gripen crash over Stockholm lead to a more restricted legislation regarding airshows over populated areas. I'm not arguing that airshows are popular or not. They certainly are. -- Henriok 16:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was refering to your statement that 'we' in the meaning 'swedes' only care about the crasches. That was what you wrote. It's a stupid to make generalizations like that and in this case I know it's not true. Maybe you are just using 'care' in the sense 'know of'. But even then it would be a stupid generalization.83.248.209.36 13:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My humble opinion is that the Crashes section is fully motivated, for multiple reasons. In Sweden virtually everyone knows of the crashes, and conceiling them here could indeed, from that point of view, be deemed biased. The opinions (in Sweden) on the plane may vary (depending on your personal position on matters such as weapons), and in the years after the first two crashes there were many cheap jokes about it, but I think the general view of the Swedish public on the plane now is that it is a good piece of engineering, just like Volvos and Saabs and Scanias. My second reason discards any claim that the Crashes section would be biased on the negative: a mere four crashes in 18 years, with only a handful of slightly injured people involved, that is brilliant, no question about it! Lars R.

ETPS usage

I don't believe the Gripen has entered common use with the ETPS yet, despite one being displayed with ETPS livery, is this correct? TiHead 23:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo request

Has anyone seen a photo online of a Grippen equipped with laser guided bombs and a targeting pod. I saw one once on the Grippen official website but could not download it. Thanks Chwyatt 16:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There should be some more information included.

Since July 2006 at the FARNBOROUGH show an advanced version of the Gripen was being offered to replace the F-16 in Denmark and Norway. The new Gripen named Gripen N and Gripen DK is more advanced than the normal version. You should note that this is a project and has yet to be made.

So for obvious reasons I feel a new page should be added with the relevant information of the new developments of the Gripen. This new project also interests the British as it could further evolve as a possible replacement of the JSF.

I have the 2 official files in pdf concerning these informations.

If you want to contact me please send me a mail to this add:

mehdi_mu@hotmail.com

Thanks,

MehdiMautbur 17:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It is illusional to think any Jas-39 variant can replaced the F-16. The Gripen is a tiny plane, its powerplant is mere half as powerful (85kN vs. 145kN for latest F-16). The bang for the buck is also very different, as F-16 can carry 4tons of bombs PLUS lotsa fuel, while Gripen suffers with 2,5 tons of payload. Gripen is for countries who want a really modern plane, but wish to stay out of conflicts (e.g. buy F-16 and dread the day Uncle Sam asks you a favour like help bomb Iran or the Serbs again). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.70.32.136 (talk) 09:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, this could be argued. The Gripen is a lighter plane, thus the power advantage of the F16 erodes somewhat. The Gripen is also an extremely agile plane, with excellent manoeuvering capabilities. So, if a certain number of F16s would have to fight their way through a barrier of the same number of Gripens, they would probably have problems reaching their designated targets, the Gripens would be like wasps over them, smaller but with a sting that would indeed be felt. If you add the price advantage, which means that you can buy 50-100 % more Gripens for the same money, well who knows what the outcome would be. Let's hope we'll never find out. Lars R —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.101.122.141 (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

You are a bit on the low side on your estimated payload for the Gripen, it can take 5.3 ton in the C/D version, and the E/F version will carry 6.5 ton, with an option to carry more internal fuel if the buyer wishes (as Norway requested). Also you always have the option to use more planes if you wish to drop more bombs, and as the Gripen is more affordable than the later models of F-16 that is certainly an option. But the Gripen is not designed as a bomb truck and was not intended to be used for preparing invasions, but to fend off invaders and retaliate if necessary. 83.248.192.253 (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian Gripens are not used ones.

The hungarian planes are not ex-swedish airforce items, they are newly manufactured JAS-39EBS versions, because the orignal leasing contract was changed in 2003 for more modern planes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.70.32.136 (talk) 08:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Accidents

In relation to the main body of the article, there seems to be a large emphasis on the accidents. Can these observations be cut down? Bzuk03:49 18 February 2007 (UTC).

I noticed that an IP editor cut out the details of the 1999 incident, but that edit has been reverted. I tend to agree with the IP editor that such detail of the accident analysis really doesn't belong in this overview article. Actually, there's probably enough material there for a stub article about the incident. Akradecki 20:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Reference sources

Where are textual reference sources? Bzuk03:49 18 February 2007 (UTC).

I reverted to a previous version, merged your changes and added a references section. Please don't remove the {{cite_web}} templates. --Edward Sandstig 09:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Incident split proposal

If the incident is noteworthy enough, it should have its own article, which would conform to WP:AIR Accidnet task force, and Distarer Project guidelines. In any event, the "Incidents" section is just to be a summary, not a place for debate over the incidents themselves. But I see know reason for a separate article on Gripen incidents - there aren't that many to begin with. - BillCJ 23:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Potential Operators

This section is becoming quite a mess. I have brought up the issue on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/page content, so will wait for some sort of decision of the issue before making wholesale changes myself. The Operators section should be limited to users who actually operated, currently use, or have purchased the type. Potential operators should be covered in the text. See C-17 Globemaster III for a good example. - BillCJ 23:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes. I think a 'text only in paragraphs' format makes more sense for this section. A sentence or two on Norway and Sweden's recent agreement (MoU) would be good. -Fnlayson 17:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, we can't make such lists for maybe-they-will-choose-it operators. All info from potential operators can be covered in text in subsection. When country choose aircraft in competition we can add it into standard operators list. Piotr Mikołajski 18:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed "after involuntary ejection" from paragraph on Vidsel incident

I had to temporarily remove the words "after involuntary ejection" from the paragraph about the incident at Vidsel, since the investigation is still ongoing and as of yet, there is no confirmation on what caused the crash.[1] --Edward Sandstig 19:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Update: 2007-06-05 Heptor added a link to an article from air-attack.com dated 2007-05-24 which was basically rehashing the earlier reports from Swedish media. However, as of 2007-06-04, the same original source specified (Swedish Radio) reports that the possible cause could have been the ejector handle being too stiff and going off due to pressure from the pilot's g-suit.([2], [3], [4], [5]) The case is still under investigation by the Swedish Accident Investigation Board, but considering SAAB has already stated that they will be making changes based on their own internal investigation, I guess that could indicate that the latest reports are more accurate. Question is, do we wait until the official investigation is over, or do we keep updating the article as more speculation's come up? --Edward Sandstig 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• I added 'The accident is currently under investigation.' to that entry. I'd wait until there's something official from the SAAB. -Fnlayson 18:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

To Edward Sandstig: Do those reports really contradict each other? The report referenced to by Air-Attack ([6]), says that the ejection mechanism is activated when the g-forces are high enough. The report you bring([http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/ekot/artikel.asp?artikel=1406909) claims that the ejection handle was inadvertently activated by the g-suite, which would expand acting on increased g-forces. In any case, I think it should at least be mentioned that the pilot claims that it was the cause of the incident. -- Heptor _talk 01:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Previous statement implied that if the aircraft was subjected to certain G-forces that the ejector seat would automatically eject the pilot, whereas the more recent statements from SAAB's internal investigation clarify that it isn't really the G-forces acting on the aircraft that cause this, but more of how the pilot's G-suit, upon expansion, can cause the ejection lever to activate. I've mentioned in the main article that current evidence points to the ejector seat as the culprit, but don't want to expand on it until there's official word from HavKom, or at least the internal report from SAAB. --Edward Sandstig 10:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I now only added that the pilot claimed that he was ejected without pulling the ejector cord. There is strictly speaking no contradiction between the intermediate reports from the investigation, as the g-suite expands on increased g-force. -- Heptor _talk 11:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. We can leave it as is until we get more info from SAAB and the HavKom. --Edward Sandstig 13:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving the crashes section

I'm planning on removing the detailed description of the crashes to a list of Gripen crashes, according to previous suggestions. This is in analogy with the list of C-130 Hercules crashes, among others. The disputes over this might then go away. I plan to keep only a short paragraph linking to the crashes page, probably in the "operational history" section. LarRan 21:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Gripen versus JAS 39

As you probably know, the Swedish Air Force uses a designation sequence to their aircraft models: 29 (Tunnan), 32 (Lansen), 35 (Draken), 37 (Viggen) and 39 (Gripen). This sequence is - in my view - unique. It does not seem logical for other air forces to use the same designation. For example: the C-130 Hercules is called TP84, which is short for "transportplan 84". I suspect no other air force - and definitely not the manufacturer - uses that designation.

Thus, calling the plane 'JAS 39 Gripen' is probably tautologous. Saab just calls it 'Gripen', or possibly 'Saab Gripen'. Having said that, I realize that the expression 'JAS 39 Gripen' is widely used by the general public (especially in Sweden), and to some extent probably by the military too.

In strict military talk though, the Viggen, for example, was called 'Flygplan 37' ("Aeroplane 37"), abbreviated 'Fpl 37'. From that, the names of the specially developed versions - like the JA37 (air-to-air + air-to-surface), the SH37 (reconnaissance over sea), etc - were developed. Since the Gripen is a true multirole aircraft, the only version (and designation) is the JAS39 (albeit in varous variants/batches). Having only one version may have contibuted to the use of 'JAS 39 Gripen'.

I have mailed the public relations officer at Gripen International. We'll soon have his answer.

LarRan 21:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how JAS 39 and Gripen are tautologous (my first exposure to that word, and English is my first language!). F-16 and FIghting Falcon are certianly not. One is a name, while the other is a designation, which is not unique to just the US or Sweden. Other nations do assign designations and names to aircraft of both domestic and foreign origin, such as Canada, the Neterlands, Spain, Brazil, and China. Our usual pattern here on Wikipedia is to list military aircraft by their official government, not company, name, unless it has so many government names that the company name is a better title. Even so, exceptions are usually handled on a case by case basis.

As the 35 and 37 are under Saab 3# name pattern, you could propose moving the page to Saab 39 Gripen. However, JAS 39 is commonly known, and unless the Swedish military states that is it absolutely not the designation they use, I see no problem using the curret title.

- BillCJ 00:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

My point is this: if you would want to read about the Viggen, what would you search for, and what articles would you expect to find? You would have to decide whether you wanted to read about the JA37 Viggen or the SH37 Viggen. And you would have to keep separate articles for each version - if you include the version designation in the name of the article. In the case of Gripen, there is only one version, thus it works, though it's logically wrong. In the case of the Hercules the correct name would probably be Lockheed Hercules - without the 'C-130' in the middle. But I won't press this further. (It just nags me a bit, I'm a logical person.) Btw: I have not heard from Saab. The PR officer is probably on vacation. LarRan 18:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is what the Communications Manager replied:

Hello and thank you for contacting Gripen International.

Yes, you are correct. 'JAS 39' is only used in the Swedish Air Force, as 'JAS' is a Swedish language abbreviation for Jakt, Attack, Spaning, which in English translates as air–to-air combat, ground attack and reconnaissance capability. The Gripen fighter is designated JAS 39, as in accordance with the Swedish Air Forces numbering system, Gripen was officially the 39th aircraft system to enter service.

Our export customers also call their Gripens 'Gripen', although the Hungarians sometimes call theirs 'JAS39 Gripen', because these aircraft are 'A/B' standard to 'C/D' standard conversions leased to the Hungarian government by the Swedish government, who of course call them 'JAS39'. Perhaps now you can see why we prefer to call all aircraft simply 'Gripen'! For all export sales/customers, we simply call the aircraft 'Gripen' ('Griffin' in English), which is much easier to understand (and have to explain each time!) than 'JAS'.

On your grammatical point regarding whether 'JAS39 Gripen' is tautologous or not, I suppose it could be, although as this is a combination of a set of numbers and a word, neither of which are readily understandable if you don't know what they are, one could argue otherwise. My understanding of tautology is where a series of words is used to say the same thing, for example "I, myself, personally think Gripen is the best..........." All 3 words 'I, myself, personally" all refer to the writer, so this would be tautologous. An interesting debate.

I hope this helps and once again thank you for contacting Gripen International.

http://www.gripen.com/en/index.htm

Best regards

etc

LarRan 21:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What I meant was not that it would be unique for the Swedish Air Force to have designation sequences, of course not. I'm aware of the fact that other airforces do that too. What I meant was that the designation sequence they're using is unique within the Swedish Air Force. One cannot expect the number 39 to be protected from use by other airforces. Thus, one should not include one government's/airforce's designation number in the aircraft designation, since there will be many, if the aircraft is exported - or produced in more than one country, like the Eurofighter might be. (I don't know if it is already, or ever will be, but it might be.) LarRan 09:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In the case of the Eurofighter, there will also be more than one 'official government'. Quod erat demonstrandum. LarRan 16:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Many aircraft have articles headlined with a designation that is country specific. Just try these links and see for yourself F-14 F-15, A-6 Intruder. Keeping the article name as "JAS 39 Gripen" is in line with this. --J-Star 16:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I know that. Being many doesn't necessarily mean you're right, it just means you're ... many. LarRan 23:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure why you object to a fighter designed and built by Sweden to Swedish Air Force requirements, and produced originally for the SAF, using its official SAF designation! We do the same thing with US military aircraft, even when they are sold overseas, and even when they have had foreign partners from the beginning, ie F-35 Lightning. I sincerely hope the US military aircraft pages are not your next target! For that, you would need to get the WP:AIR naming conventions changed, and I really don't see THAT happening any time soon.

But you have a right to your own beliefs and preferences, and if you want to move this page, propose a move (rename). I'll do the work for you if you're not sure how to do it, as I do beleive in seeking consensus, even if I disagree with the goal. But I will "oppose" the move in the poll section. If you gain a consensus to move it, fine, but if there's not a clear consensus, it will stay here for now. - BillCJ 17:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess you could say that it's 'designed and built by Sweden', but it's more accurate to say that it's built and designed by Saab (albeit with some very major subcontractors such as Volvo Aero and Ericsson) for the SAF. I'm just looking for a consistent way of naming military aircraft.

May I assume that you don't want one article on the AJ37 Viggen, and one on the SH37 Viggen? Consequently, we can rule the 'JAS' part out. If the Gripen weren't a true multirole aircraft, it would come in several versions. It just happens that it is, and thus all Gripens are JAS:es, meaning that it works in this special case, and there will no need for multiple articles.

In my opinion, the article should be named 'Saab Gripen', in analogy with Saab Tunnan ('Fpl 29' i SAF, see above). On the other hand, the Lansen article is stored under the name Saab 32 Lansen. By the way, the designation sequence isn't Saab's, it's SAF's, so 'Saab 39 Gripen' wouldn't be correct either.

The Hercules may well be known under the C-130 designation in large parts of the (English-speaking) world, but the Hercules name is, I think, even more widespread. What's wrong with the name 'Lockheed Hercules'? Isn't that what the manufacturer calls it? And you didn't say what applies when there are several original and official governments, as in the case of the Eurofighter. LarRan 23:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought I had give this link before, but didn't see it above. Read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft) - that covers most major types. I think Swedish aircraft are something for which we probably need a clarification, so feel free to take up the issue there. And sorry, I didn't realize Saab wasn't a Swedish company. My bad. - BillCJ 00:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm noting that you've not answered a single one of my questions. What is the Hercules called by its manufacturer? Would you like separate articles on the AJ37 Viggen and the SH37 Viggen? What applies when there isn't one, but several, official governments?

What happened with the "always assume good faith" bit? I resent the kind of malicious irony you're displaying. Such remarks remarks only incite WIKI:HATE. It's like I would say "I didn't realize a Swedish company and Sweden was the same. My bad.". Which I, of course, would never do - 'cause I have read the five pillars (have you recently?). I give up, I'm leaving wikipedia, I don't like to be insulted. You'll have to target someone else now. LarRan 09:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't "malicious irony", just sarcasm. You could have just played along (your retort would have been a good one, and I would have conceded your point!), but instead you chose to take it personally. My point was that since the Gripen is a Swedish product built in Sweden at the behest of, and for, the SAF, shouldn't we consider what the SAF calls it? And it doesn't matter what Lockheed calls the Hercules, since the naming conventions we use say we call it by its official US DOD designation. For most other other countries' aircraft, we do use Company/name or company/designation, and once in a while we use company/designation/name.

I did look at the Swedish wikipage for the Gipen, and it is "Saab 39 Gripen". But since you rejected that one too, I suggested you propose a move. I notice you didn't reply on that either. If you're going to be this intractable in all your discussions, I can't help that. You seem to have a deep interest in the Gripen, but I don't know if that extends to other aircraft or not. I'll argue with a fencepost give the oppurtunity, so I'm guilty of letting this discussion go on too long from my end. I've tried to move it along by suggesting the move proposal, but that didn't work! Anyway, what you do is your choice. If you think my "malicious irony" is bad, then there is no way you could handle some of the criticisms you would encounter from some other editors that are here. If you want to keep editing here, I don't have a problem with that - I meant nothing personal by my comment, and I have nothing against you. I'm sorry that I caused you offense, and will try to watch that in any future converstaions with you, should you chose to stay. The choices are yours. Make the best one for you. - BillCJ 16:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

LaRan, hold yours horses a bit before you confuse people to much! You are correct to a level, but most of what you say is wrong!!! Yes, the Swedish Air Force do have a unique system of designation of their aircraft that goes back to 1926, but the numbers have not always been randomly. When it comes to Saab aircraft they have all with two exceptions been given an Air Force designation based upon Saab's own project number! That is, that Saab 37 is Saab's own name with a number picked by Saab, not by the Swedish Air Force! The SAF did put their own pre-designation AJ, JA, SH and so on before the number depending on their use of the airplane. Viggen have never officially been called "Flygplan 37" or "Fpl 37" by the SAF! You are probably confusing it with "System 37" wich was SAF's generic name of all Viggens. How people talk is another story. The pre-designation "Fpl" or "FPL" as short for "Flygplan" have been used exlusively by the Swedish Army only, and only for three different airplanes! None of SAF's airplanes have ever been designated with a "Fpl"! (And before you say "Fpl 801", they were never owned by SAF!) In other words, JAS 39 is called 39 only because Saab gave it the number, not the Air Force! The Air Force did nothing but added JAS! It's also worth remembering here that not all of Saab's airplanes even have names! Also, not all names are official by Saab! Names like Lansen, Draken, Viggen, Gripen, Safir and Scandia are all official names given by Saab in different ways and reasons. But Tunnan, or Flygande Tunnan was never an offficial name by Saab! Same thing with Lill-Draken. Saab airplanes 17, 18, 21, 21R, 105, 340 or 2000 didn't even have any names! Another good example, the first Saab Safirs in the SAF was designated Tp 91 only because 91 was the projekt number of the airplane given by Saab them self, i.e. SAAB 91. SAF have "borrowed" numbers for their designations with other airplanes than from Saab. Example, the Dornier Do 24 became Tp 24, the Canadian Harvards became Sk 16 only because they were called "AT-16" in USAF (not by USAAF). Beechcraft C-45 became Tp 45 and so on. Also, there have never been anything called "JA37" or "SH37". Correct spelling is JA 37 and SH 37! There is ALWAYS a space between letters and numbers in swedish military aircraft designations! There are NO exeptions! And yes, not everyone in the Swedish Air Force today do know this! Is that spelling important? Well, anyone who thinks "airforce" is correct probably don't care.

There is no conformaty what so ever with the article names about Saab aircraft here right now. The only way to make them all neutral no matter what air force using what Saab airplane with what name is by going by Saab's own project numbers only. They are, in a complete list as follow: Saab 17, 18, 21, 29, 32, 35, 37, 39, 90, 91, 105, 210, 340 and 2000. Any names, if given, should be in the text only. Not in the name of the article! Who will take the task to straighten this up? --Towpilot 04:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

To this demonstration of authoritative knowledge one must yield! As a matter of fact, I was starting to hesitate myself, as I found the Saab 21, without any other name. That signalled to me that maybe it wasn't SAF's designation sequence after all. Also, should I have been right, that does not necessarily mean that the articles would have to be named accordingly. Thanks for the exhaustive explanation. Maybe this constitues an article in its own right? You're right, some articles need renaming, since they are not consistently named. A case for WikiProject Aviation or WikiProject Sweden? LarRan 17:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Incidents sub-page

Isn't it time to move this section into an associated article? It appears to be detailed and takes away from the main article. FWIW Bzuk 01:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC).

See List of Gripen crashes. I thought it had been remved here already. I guess the creator either forgot, or doesn't think the new page is ready yet. It should happen this week tho. - BillCJ 01:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning to move the incident detailing, I'm just waiting to see reactions to the proposal, as the incidents page is rather new. LarRan 12:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. And the incidents page appeared on the Main Page in the Did you know? column on 12 July 2007! Hooray! LarRan 21:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)