Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NLP Modeling

NLP Modeling

Per Wikipedia:DEL#Reasons_for_deletion, in particular

It is advertising or other spam without relevant content (but not an article about an advertising-related subject). The article is highly promotional (NLP is full of self-promotional terms). Please note the distinction between 'promotion', which is advertising and shouldn't be in Wikipedia, and a valid article about a scientific concept.
The article is entirely content-free. Note the phrase is "[NLP] says that know-how can be separated from the person, documented and transferred experientially, and that the ability to perform the skills can be transferred subject to the modelers own limits, which can change, and improves with practice". This is of course gibberish. You cannot 'perform a skill'. Either the NLP technique of copying a skill actually transfers the skill or ability, or it transfers the ability to copy the actions of skilled people. The first is impossible, the second is useless.
The article cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms and original theories and conclusions. * The article tries underpins the pseudoscientific basis of NLP by appealing to valid scientific notions like 'model'. In NLP, modelling someone's behaviour is simply copying the behaviour of a skilled person in the attempt to transfer those skills. Thus NLP is peddled as a miraculous method that can turn you into something you are not.
The article fails to meet the relevant notability guideline. There is absolutely no need for such a huge section on NLP modeling. The effect of this subpage is to turn the article in to a “how to”.

Peter Damian (talk) 06:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. As the closing admin for the very recent Afd, I am happy for this Afd to be left open for at least a day, despite my Afd closure notice which I still think is the right approach. I do think this Afd is too early and slightly inappropriate, but Peter has selected this as the most appropriate for deletion out of the previous bundle, we may as well evaluate it. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 06:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't understand. The previous AfD was for the main article (NLP). This one is entirely separate, and is for the subarticles. There was some agreement on the previous one that articles like this should be eliminated. Perhaps you misread the title? Peter Damian (talk) 06:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Dont be silly. Or should I say, "Perhaps you didnt read the AFD closure I wrote on the last AFD".
    You did nominate NLP Modeling in the AFD, which was less than 24 hours ago, and I clearly said that this matter should be taken to a central talk page, and the right solution found via discussion. I left the door open to future renominations once that had been done, but here we are again. As you have only nominated a single page this time, I have let everyone here know that I'm happy to ignore the fact that you have just said "up yours" to me/Wikipedia/The Man/whatever, and gone against what I consider to be the right solution. The approach you have taken this time is A.OK with me. I merely wish you had initiated this AFD yesterday - we live and learn.
    On the last AFD there was no concensus to do anything - a few people did opine as you suggest, very early, probably without having reviewed all of the pages concerned, and their input was probably solicited via Wikipedia Review, for good or ill. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - You said "you have just said "up yours" to me/Wikipedia/The Man/whatever". He has done no such thing. Look at the discussion at Wikipedia Review and on my talk page. He asked for and received lots of advice. He followed that advice. By doing this. Your advice was not the only advice. Don't take it personal. WAS 4.250 (talk) 13:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Per WP:NOTGUIDE and by failing WP:N as a separate topic from Neuro-linguistic programming. Modeling is one aspect of that topic and is easily covered in a section of the NLP article. The spin-off page has no unique content or references and tends towards a how-to guide. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is just group's original theory. Artene50 (talk) 06:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Concur with Jack-A-Roe there is a need for consolidation on this topic in general, some hard editing, more objectivity and fewer unsupported claims. This is one of the weaker spin offs and should go. --Snowded TALK 06:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep This article was just at an AFD which closed speedily and it is too soon for a renomination. Further, this AFD seems to be tainted by canvassing - see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism#NLP: deletion discussion. The nomination attempts to attack the article on numerous grounds but these all seem to be spurious in that the article has sources, content and does not seem to be blatant advertising or have an instructional style. It seems that any defects can be corrected by normal editing per our editing policy and that this should be considered first per WP:BEFORE. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Notifying a single WikiProject can hardly be called canvassing. --B. Wolterding (talk) 08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - It's not just that WikiProject that's been canvassed. I came in this morning to a message on my talk page pointing me here. I also think that this is precipitate. I also feel that at least some of the criteria suggested for deletion in the proposal are transparently false. The article is not advertising (although it could do with copyediting to make it more objective); it is not content-free (trivially true - the comments from the nominator amount to style criticisms, not a demonstration of absence of content); we could probably use moure sources, but sources are not lacking (and the misuse of scientific terms is neither here nor there; to suggest that orthodox, 'legitimate' science has an exclusive right to common words like 'model' is obvious POV pushing; the only criterion I regard as valid is the last one - is this really a sufficiently notable aspect of the fringe practice that is NLP that it deserves its own article? The nominator, who styles himself a logician, ought perhaps to review the way in which he has gone about reviewing the NLP articles. That, and also re-read WP:SPIDER. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a refined AFD, so I think it is very reasonable that Peter Damian notified a bunch of people who participated in the last AFD and the subsequent discussion at User talk:Peter Damian#Psychobabble. In addition, I notified the three projects that I quickly found in the discussion at User talk:Jayvdb#NLP : WikiProject NLP concepts and methods‎, WikiProject Psychology and WikiProject Rational Skepticism. I then notified the original contributor M.C. ArZeCh‎ (talk · contribs) who isnt very active, and all of the contributors to this article who have made significant edits, as they have an interest in the topic, and maybe also an interest in improving the article: FT2, JamesMLane, Action potential, DCDuring, PatrickMerlevede. Both Peter and I are trying to ensure we have a more productive AFD this time, and so have notified groups that can make it happen. As far as I can tell, both Peter and myself have both notified people from both sides of the debate. If the debate here doesnt lead to an obvious conclusion, the closing admin (which wont be me) will need to put a lot of thought into how these notifications affected the outcome. My apologies in advance for making their job difficult. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The previous close was procedural and without prejudice due to the difficulty of evaluating a large group of articles of varying quality in a single nomination. Thatcher 16:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I was personally notified on my talk page about the re-nomination. I was not encouraged to participate in either side of the issue. Personally, I think it's okay to notify potentially interested parties about an AFD discussion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Snowded. This fails WP:N and has no significance outside of the wider topic of NLP. Reminds me of game guides and other fancrufty material that spawns an article for each minor aspect of a topic. We're here to provide an overview, not a detailed in-depth explanation of every minor topic within NLP. The article itself doesn't actually seem to say much, the majority of it seems to be a quote and a list. Hardly surprising I guess as there are no reliable sources to provide any extra information, which in itself tells me the article shouldn't exist. naerii 09:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This article describes, in a pseudoscientific way, a method for apparently observing person A's behaviour and abilities, and copying them to person B. The article's use of scientific language such as model, combined with a liberal sprinkling of words that will be attractive to almost everyone, is snake oil of the worst kind. For example, the learner works on minimizing preconceptions with access to the master ... and engages in unconscious micro-muscle modeling so as to accurately reproduce the desired skill. This is patent nonsense, totally unsupported by any evidence, scientific study, or even an example. Poltair (talk) 10:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. -- John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. -- John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete non notable, and frankly unreadable. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
delete, summarising anything in the rare event that anything genuinely is useful rather than verbose, and not already mentioned, in the main NLP article. Interestingly, the NLP article is not too long so they can't say all these articles are here to stop the main articles' length being excessive. I seem to sadly know a bit about the subject lol, and 'modelling' is an important part of NLP but 'within NLP'. The concept in part already existed, they didn't invent it, it's called a role model, they just expanded upon it and added spiritual beliefs about skill being 'contagious' to it. Sticky Parkin 12:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bad faith nomination

Comment This seems to me to be a bad faith nomination, motivated in large part by the nominator's personal grudges. Evidence is presented at /Evidence to show both the background of this AFD, the nominator's lack of knowledge of the subject and collaboration with a community-banned POV warrior who POV warred on this article, and also a wide range of citations in independent reliable sources to speak to notability. In fact the topic of this article is widely referenced in health, education, and a wide range of other reputable fields and sources, including several from reputable journals. Please assess this for whatever it is worth. If I am mistaken then I will of course retract any improper and unsupported statements. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I honestly find that hard to believe. The NLP articles have been discussed before as exemplars of pseudoscience inflated beyond what is properly supportable from independent sources. Several of the NLP articles are essentially uncritical because the concepts are such patent nonsense. I'd say this article really is not a good example of how to cover a fringe or pseudoscience topic well, thoguh I'm open to persuasion based on the article itself rather than inferred motives. It's unlike you to act in that way, actually. Guy (Help!) 17:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete unnecessary and poorly supported by independent evidence. The NLP walled garden needs pruning, and this branch is rotten to the core, so let's start here. Guy (Help!) 17:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]