Talk:RuneScape/Archive 23

Fansites

I'll elaborate a bit more on the fansite issue here. Right now, the consensus is to include the three largest fansites, which are RuneHQ, Tip.it, and Zybez. This has been determined using Alexa ranks; all three are listed because their ranks are fairly close and Alexa is very rarely perfect. There are several medium-sized fansites, such as RuneVillage and Sal's Realm, but there is a difference of several thousand ranks between those and the three sites listed above.

Like I wrote in the FAQ, consensus can change, and if you would like to revive discussion on this topic, you are welcome to do so. There has already been quite a bit of discussion on this topic, however, so please try to bring something new to the table. You can see old discussion here, here, here, here, and here. Possibly more, as I haven't dug past archive 18. Comrade Tux 22:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there a point to adding fansites? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to advertise fansites. Legend ^Talk 00:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

They are given because they provide players of the game with further information. The three sites linked are the largest according to Alexa; there would be only one, but Alexa isn't always very accurate, so it was decided to include all three. This section is here because many, many people have suggested that smaller fansites be added. Comrade Tux 09:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, don't bother with "rsfansite-x.com is so much better" or "rsfansite-y.com" has loads more members" arguments. Wikipedia does not make judgements of quality, and having more members than another site is irrelevant - we're not linking to the forums, we're linking to the homepages, and the number of members a site has does not affect it's Alexa rank. Simply asking for more fansites isn't a good idea either: Wikipedia is not a mere repository of external links. We keep three as a reasonable number of sites to have. Finally, Wikipedia uses nofollow, so links on here do not affect a site's PageRank. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 22:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to note, that there is no need to bother around with RuneScape wikis. Those have been determined to be left in the article, mainly because those are wikis and are hosted by Wikia. If you look around in many other articles, if Wikia hosts a popular space for the subject, there is an extremely high chance there will be a link to the Wikia. ~Iceshark7 23:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ugly White Space

Stupid wikipedia formatting!!! For a long time now there has been a big blank space near the top of the page near the TOC. Ive tried to fix... no luck. Anyone have any ideas how to fix. → p00rleno (lvl 87) ←ROCKS^C_RS 02:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The whitespace seems to be there for all articles I've seen. I suspect that it's there to draw more attention to the table of contents and/or separate the lead from the body of articles. It's not much of a problem, really. Comrade Tux 09:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

We've been here before. Remember those Star Wars puns? :-) Ask at WP:VP/T. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 16:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Zybez at least is not a fansite.

Runescape has explicitly labelled any site that advertises runescape gold for sale as an enemy of the game and not comming under the category of 'fansite'

"Finally, we have noticed some 3rd party sites, which call themselves 'fansites', but then advertise black market trading sites. This will no longer be tolerated. By running such advertising these sites are directly supporting these gangs, and are thus causing the botting problems they then complain about! We don't consider sites that encourage our players to break the rules and endanger their own users to be 'fansites'. (i.e. They're advertising things to their users, which, if the advertising works, will serve to get their users banned!) We consider them cheat sites, and they will be treated accordingly. True fans of the game don’t encourage cheating!"

I know for certain zybez has such advertisements but am not sure about the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.152.122.98 (talk) 06:21:07, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

All the fansites have these advertisements, and all have attempted to have them taken down, with little success. Google AdSense (et al) place RuneScape-related adverts on RuneScape-related sites, such as the major fansites, and the adverts are hard to get rid of. In addition, even if there were fansite(s) listed who willingly promoted the sale of gold, it wouldn't be a reason to remove them from the list; while I certainly wouldn't be visiting such a site, Wikipedia isn't censored. Comrade Tux 09:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

This simply isn't true. Zybez at least does not use google adsense but a permanant banner ad. Even if the advertisements were from randomized google ads it makes no difference; Jagex has officially stated that any website with advertisements for real world item exchange are not fansites. Not only do they say they are not fansites, but they go on to explain how they are essentially an enemy of the game.

"In addition, even if there were fansite(s) listed who willingly promoted the sale of gold, it wouldn't be a reason to remove them from the list."

It most certainly would. These websites are technically not fansites, and so should not be under the heading "fansites" and as they are enemies of runescape they should not be on the page at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.152.122.70 (talk) 19:06:28, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

OK, you got me on the adsense point, admittedly I didn't know because I block all the fansites' adverts. However, on your point "these websites are technically not fansites"... since when does Jagex control what a "fansite" is? It is irrelevant what Jagex describes Zybez as, they are still a top fansite. Wikipedia isn't meant as a tool that the subjects of articles can bend to their will. (Side note: old discussion on this topic can be found here.) Comrade Tux 23:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Jagex are referring to sites which may have banner ads for gold sales. In that case, it's the responsibility of the advertising agency, Google adsense or otherwise, and the host site has limited control over the content of ads (I often see adverts for other MMORPGs at runescape.com). I think Jagex are referring to sites that actually conduct and promote real world item trading themselves, not just have banner ads. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 23:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

"Finally, we have noticed some 3rd party sites, which call themselves 'fansites', but then advertise black market trading sites. This will no longer be tolerated."

it is quite clear they do not consider any site that advertises trading items for real world benefits a fansite.

I think it is the object of fandom's right to determine what is and what isn't a fansite —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.152.122.113 (talk) 00:49, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Jagex did not make the fansites that relate to their game; the game community did. If the community judges Zybez to no longer be a true fansite, then they will leave and their traffic will fall. That doesn't appear to have happened, and so the link will remain. The inclusion or exclusion of a fansite is not a statement of quality, adherence to the game rules, recognition by Jagex, or anything similar. Comrade Tux 02:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The site is more likely to cause players to be banned from RuneScape if we link to it. Many players seem to be banned (in my experience watching forums) simply because they did not know of the rules. Granted, that may be their responsibility, but it is best not to encourage them. Zybez, having directly added a permanent link to a gold-selling site instead of *sometimes* coming up in random advertisements, is actively encouraging it. Basically, I wouldn't want my children, or any of the great numbers of players, to purchase gold because they saw the link there after following it through here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.6.111.176 (talk)

Erm, I'm not seeing any permanent gold selling links on Zybez, just banner ads that change/reset every time I hit F5, and you get those bloody things everywhere. True, I can't find an official line on gold selling ads in the Zybez news archives, but Zybez only seem to address content updates in the game and on their own site, not matters related to game rules. In fact, I just remembered that Zybez's W13 edits here as Zybez (talk · contribs). Take a look at this edit addressing the issue. But really, WP:NPOV prevents us making this kind of judgement (see #Fansites above). CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 21:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That advert for lewt.com (and it's affiliates) has been there for AAAAAAAAGES, and never changes as far as I know. I've not seen any adverts aside from gold selling ones. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.243.17 (talk) 22:22, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with having a neutral point of view or whatever, the company does not consider them part of the game community so they should not be there. The website is funded by ads paid for by people ruining the game. To justify the ads as covering server costs you'd have to ask what is the point of the website as it's making the game worse. Any justification is moot anyway, JaGeX does not consider them representative of the runescape community so they should not be under the heading 'fansites.' This is also not an issue of freedom of speech as W13 is located in Canada, Jagex in Britain and the Zybez servers in America, who all have different laws on GOVERNMENT censorship and encouraging others to break laws, including copyright. I am a bit iffy about fansites being linked to on wikipedia, it is an encyclopedia for information about rather than advertising space. I object to them being labelled fansites, but maybe if they just linked to the main site under "unsupported runescape gameplay guides" or something similiar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.152.122.91 (talk) 11:19, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

First, it is very difficult for us to take any comment/criticism/advice seriously if you repeatedly refuse to sign your posts by using 4 tildes.

Second, concensus is that the top three fansites as ranked by Alexa will be listed. If any of the three top rated sites were to suddenly be infested with malware or the like, that would be a reason to address their deletion from the list. All the fansites are having an issue with those advertisements for illegal gold selling sites; this is not limited to Zybez.

Third, it is the player's responsibility to know the rules of any game they play. Compare this to football (British or American - pick your preference) - if a player did not know and follow the rules, they would have very little benefit to their team. It is the player's responsibility to know the rules and follow them.

Fourth, as far as I have seen, all of the articles on games list at least one fansite (if such exists for that game). RuneScape is following procedure by listing the Alexa-ranked sites rather than using some subjective method.

Short disclaimer - I have no relationship with any fansite other than as an occasional user for game guides. My decision of which site to use is based solely on its value to me for a particular purpose, and I use several different ones when I need assistance. Xela Yrag 16:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

1]how does signing or not signing affect how seriously you take me? Just because I don't know wikipedia standards doesn't make the points I raise any less serious

2]All of the sites have had their ads up for years now. Even if they did have any grounds for justification, they should still be removed as they encourage users to break the rules.

The argument from these websites that they 'really don't want the ads but have to to pay bandwidth costs' is ridiculous as a) how did sites start? b) Since when has needing money been justification for breaking laws etc? If they were fansites they would not compromise the game in order to keep themselves running.

3]In football, coaches should not encourage people to cheat.

4]Oh, other articles do it so its ok? Google receives far more hits than and of these sites put together, as ranked by Alexa. It should really be on the top; except it's not a fansite either. 130.123.128.114 02:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this user's worries about arguments. Could we keep discussions related to the topic at hand, and not those discussing it? Thank you.

Regardless of what you may think, a fansite does not exist to serve every pity whim of the game it supports: it exists to help the players by providing them with information and tools. If they don't know the rules, that is not our fault. Zybez chose the lesser of three evils with regards to advertising and as such should not be treated any differently to the other two sites; regardless of what Jagex say, Zybez is still a fansite. In response to what Comrade Tux said earlier: less than 0.0004% of Zybez users actually care that Jagex told them to Boycott websites who have gold selling ads (based on emails received and topics from the forum-cannot base it on traffic, our traffic actually went up afterward).58.173.203.65 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)Ben_Goten78

Pronounciation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It is 'Rune Scape' or 'Run Escape'? I'm not sure if this is mentioned in the article but i think it is a valid thing to include.--Coin945 09:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

OMG... any one who playes the game knows it is pronouced Rune Scape. If you look at the logo you would know that because the word "Rune" is higher up than the word "Scape" probably done like this by Jagex so people don't think it is Run Escape. 12.152.160.138 15:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's RuneScape. In-game it's RuneScape, everywhere it's RuneScape. It's even written "RuneScape" everywhere on the site.

Look at the logo! http://www.runescape.com/img/title2/rslogo3.gif —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.243.17 (talk) 15:42, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely pronounced Rune-Scape. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 17:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This is why I thought this thread was trolling, beyond WP:AGF. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but there's no reasonable dispute on how to pronounce the name, and I've only ever seen "run escape" either as a joke or from people complaining on web forums. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 19:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The e in front of the scape is just a mere coincidence -(never realised it spelled escape). Obviously of you played the game you would realise its Rune-scape. Have you ever seen a word with a e preceeded by a n pronunced ###n - e### anon124.168.115.172 12:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

omg how dumb can u get?? its rune scape and why would a frekin mmorpg just b about running and escaping?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.37.106 (talk) 22:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, that's enough. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 16:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Communication with newer editors

We need someone else in the WikiProject to help with welcoming and informing new users who edit RuneScape pages. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Massively multiplayer online games/RuneScape#Communicating with new contributors who edit RuneScape pages. (cross-posted here so more people see it) Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 15:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

images

the images squish the information together, the page looks horrible in low resolutions. gifs slow my browsers. plz fix this the first gif shouldnt be there it looks horrible plz remove it.--Takendone 02:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Just had one person whose sole contribution was removing that exact image you want removed. And now your sole contribution was this comment. Both had pretty mediocre grammar. And seeing as how you didn't attempt to edit that article yourself, it seems as if this account is new. Are you sure you're not that same person? Tarikochi 02:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarikochi (talk • contribs)

Personally I agree that the Magic tablet's image is in totally the wrong place. Also please don't use ad hominem attacks when a person is clearly trying to improve the page. Whether their grammar is wrong or not has nothing to do with the justification for the image being located wrong. Please don't further claim that I am a new account - I have many edits both here and on different wikipedia topics Philipwhiuk 06:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, if this person really wants to improve the page, why does he only want the first image remove after claiming that "gifs slow my browsers"? It isn't the only GIF animation there, and certainly not the largest (largest is that Castle Wars one). Also, this person would have done it himself, except for my assumption that he can't because the account is brand new and the page is protected.

My mention of this person's grammar isn't in regards to the person's argument; it's in regards of the person being a virtual copy of another person who went after the exact same thing. In other words, I'm saying this person is using sock puppets to attempt to attack that specific image.

The only thing that keeps me from agreeing is that both have only one contribution, and it in itself seems like an attack only to get rid of an image that may cause an actual influence in the RuneScape game itself alongside the article.

P.S.: The Magic Tablet image has been moved back and forth to its current location. Tarikochi 15:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

In fairness, the article has got a lot of images (14, excluding sprotection padlock vs. 50k Wikicode size). Maybe some would be better off in the subpages, for example the teleporter moved to Gielinor (transport, geography - that old chestnut), one of the armours moved to combat? Retain the best here as a sort of 'taster' of the subpages. WP:SIZE asks for article size to be kept down (preferably below 32-35k) for ease of access. That's what subpages are for. I've no real opinion myself, since I've never had an access problem. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 16:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

??? whats a sockpuppet. i want that image removed because what do magic tablets have to do with the beginning of the section the img is like there to get attention or something. and whats with the gifs??? too many!! plz just remove the first img.Takendone 17:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

To be exactly honest, I had the same thought. The image in the lead is a bit too much - I'd delete it. ~Iceshark7 19:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm expressing my concerns with the number of fair-use images used in the article. According to non-free content policy point #3a, fair use images should be used as little as possible. I felt that Image:Runescape equipment armours decorativearmour-gold.gif and Image:Runescape equipment armours dragon-chikoritapro.gif are eventually displaying the same idea that Runescape has different types of outfit, but that's reductant because every online game has this feature. One of the image mentioned should be removed in accordance to the policy. I noticed that other Runescape-related articles (ie RuneScape combat and RuneScape skills) contain the same problem. The animated images look nice, but you don't need 2 pictures each to demonstrate melee attack, magic attack, and range attack nor animated images for nearly half the skills. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 17:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was kind of worried about the same thing. We could probably lose the older ones, from before Jagex started updating all the graphics. We can always restore them through DRV if the new ones don't work out. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree on that the 2 "rotating statues" are too much, and should be reduced to one. The main point of the article is to tell about the game in overall, and not to tell what different kinds of items are there in game. Or should we display every set of armours possible in Runescape? ~Iceshark7 19:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The animated images look nice, but you don't need 2 pictures each to demonstrate melee attack, magic attack, and range attack nor animated images for nearly half the skills.

I was under the impression that the RuneScape skills page was about - gasp - RuneScape skills? There isn't a single skill in RuneScape that doesn't show some sort of action/emote/animation (whatever you want to call it), so why shouldn't there be animations of the skills on the skills page? Clv309 17:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Activity

What happened to all the activity in the RuneScape Wikipedia articles? It seemed to have suddenly vanished.

About a year ago, it was very active with vandalism spotted at an instant. Now vandalism can be left alone for hours without notice, as if no one cares about the RuneScape articles anymore, let alone attempts to actually improve it.

I remember back when people still cared about editing the articles to be active in it, but what happened to it now that my watchlist stopped running at rapid-fire speed? Tarikochi 23:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, my activity has been down for a while because I've had a lot of work to do. I couldn't log on at all for most of last month because something important on my PC's motherboard burned out. IE7 on Vista still doesn't run userscripts properly. Time to think about getting Firefox again... I don't know if it even works properly on Vista yet...

Ed's left, its probably best I let his userpage explain. :-\ CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, what about Sagnella, Cilencia, and those in their group? Most of the people I remember were when the RuneScape articles actually still have individual articles like "Cooking" and "RuneScape Weapons". Tarikochi 20:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarikochi (talk • contribs)

Pass. I saw Hyenaste the other day though, on WP:RD/C. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Since RuneScape has achieved GA status, there is little incentive to improve the article further. FA status is nearly impossible to achieve - and who would want to endure endless nitpicking, or to be told to "cite your sources or go f*** yourself"? (CaptainVindaloo, check out Opera.)

Vandalism decreased considerably once the article received permanent semi-protection. By the way, I gave up editing articles on online games, because anonymous vandalism and insertion of fancruft is rampant on such articles, and admins are usually unwilling to do anything about this. Instead, I wrote a GA on a Singaporean movie - I Not Stupid. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'll have a look at Opera. Never would have thought of that. Thanks, JLWS. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I believe the true reason of the really low activity in these articles was due to the extreme obsession of fancruft, fair use killing, and the attack on anyone that makes an insertion of any of such or a mistake, not because of the good article status. With that obsession, the interest to edit something that just gets insta-reverted seems gone.

And apparently, there was a clear vandalism that lasted nine hours. That's how well the activity is going. Tarikochi 22:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Images 2

There are too many free fair use images in this article. Because they are free fair use, we are not supposed to use many. There are 10, 11 with the one I just removed because it was in the lead and glaringly unnatractive. A few should suffice. I don't know which ones illustrate the subject the best. But I think it should be cut down. i ^said 07:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean "too many fair use images"? Since Wikipedia is a supporter of the American free software movement, an article can never have too many free use images. Assuming you meant "fair use" - yes, we should avoid indiscrminate use of screenshots and other fair use images, lest the anti-fair use brigade come and delete all of them. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

o.O It was late. But yes, that is what I meant. i ^said 19:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what we can do to address this to be honest, all screenshots are fair use and you can't identify a game without screenshots. Meanwhile we need to use images to make the page more accessible. Anybody got a suggestion to resolve this? Philipwhiuk 19:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Are the image assets from the Jagex Corporate site press pack provided for "review purposes" better or worse than fair use? --Joshtek 17:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Although under our policies, they are technically equivalent to fair use (as non-free media), I'd prefer to use them over fair use whenever possible. We still should avoid an excess, though. -Amarkov moo! 23:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out on September 2 by me, there're image problems not only in this article, but also in RuneScape combat and RuneScape skills. Fair use problems mainly lies in Runescape combat, you don't need 2 fair use images for each attack type. We get the idea with just 1 fair use image. This problem is less on Runescape skills, but there're areas for improvements to reduce fair use images used in all 3 articles. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

That is a lot of fair use images. They need to be seriously cut down. And not just because they're fair use. Also because that many images is overkill. i ^said 04:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Then let's give the old ones the heave-ho. They're out of date with the new graphical updates. It's not as if we can't DRV them if we change our minds. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

As much as I hate this deletion of fair use image policy bullcrap Wikipedia has suddenly pulled in the last few months, the images could be updated and repositioned. On another note, is there any reason why there shouldn't be a Runescape quests article? It might be informative and help add to the collection of articles, as quests are probably just as important an element in Runescape as the lore gods and the skills. DeusExMachina 02:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

←It's not bullcrap, its policy finally being enforced. And because there is not a need for more RuneScape related cruft articles. i ^said 03:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's a bullcrap policy, anyway, and I don't mind going on the record saying that. (If I decide to RfA in two or so years, I may regret it then, lol). But yeah, it was just a thought, and it's an element of the game that should be expanded on given its popularity, though I'm sure people will disagree. I'm not going to go and make an article if it becomes RfD'd a day later by people who think it is mere cruft, though. DeusExMachina 04:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's not debate the mertis of WP:FU here. Let's instead act on the policy until it is changed. i ^said 05:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I've made a promise to myself never to get involved in image deletion, etc., in a hands-on capacity in any case, because of my clear bias in the issue, so no worries there. I'm not going to put myself in situations where I HAVE to use the policy, in light of my opinion on it. That way it won't get me into trouble. Hopefully it'll change though. But this is all off-topic. *vanish* DeusExMachina 05:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

←The discussion seems to have stalled. Thus, I shall propose. Barring objections, I am going to remove
Image:Runescape equipment armours decorativearmour-gold.gif,
Image:Runescape monsters kingblackdragon-updated.gif,
Image:CastleWars.gif
Image:Runescape randomevents frog.gif.
I do this because they don't help me as a reader understand it all that better to warrant a picture. As for RuneScape Skills, I intend to remove
Image:Runescape skill woodcutting.gif,
Image:Runescape skill farming.gif,
Image:Runescape skill fletching.gif,
Image:Runescape skill agility.gif,
Image:Runescape skill slayer.gif and
Image:RuneScape Quest Cape Emote.gif.
I'll take the liberty to deal with all RuneScape related articles. For Gielinor, I'll axe
Image:Runescape items teleportations sphere-break.gif
Image:Runescape monsters kalphitequeen-1stform-updated.gif and
Image:Runescape spells lunarspells vengeance.gif.
RuneScape combat will lose
Image:Runescape monsters kalphitequeen-2ndform-updated.gif and Image:Multi-Purpose RuneScape Image.JPG.
As for RuneScape gods, I'd axe all but the one actually showing a god, but I'll let you decide. Sorry for the odd format listing the images. It looked very cluttered otherwise.i ^said 03:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

For Gielinor, I'd agree with those image removals but I would like to replace them with a couple map images to better illustrate the places they describe rather than the vague gif pictures being removed. I know you don't want too many fair use images in the article, but more maps could illustrate it. DeusExMachina 06:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Maps would be perfect. i ^said 06:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll get on that right away.. actually a lot in that article can be condensed into sections, with a map to illustrate each section - "Southern Sea", "The North", "Morytania and the Eastern Sea", etc. DeusExMachina 00:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Deleting all of them is a little hasty, I think. The skills images are fine where they are (they illustrate points in the article). The teleporter animations would be better in Gielinor, and the combat/armour/monsters/magic in Combat. I think the KBD in the main article works quite well, though. Just needs a little moving and tidying up, not necessarily deletion of everything. Maybe delete the ones that are too similar to another, or don't fit properly anywhere. There's no need to get paranoid about WP:NFCC, just be careful. Just my opinion. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 21:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Non free images are to kept at a minimum. I believe that the ones that would remain after my removals would adequately illustrate the subject,considering the fair use policy. We don't need to illustrate every single skill action. Only one or two. And if we were being paranoid, there would be even fewer. We shouldn't be copyright paranoid, but not everything is paranoia. i ^said 22:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with the removal of some of the fair use images. I've always argued that non-free content should always be kept to a minimum in any article, even if any possible image for the game constitutes as fair use. I agree with I; you don't need to supplement every section of text with a relevant picture. A few images would be fine for the entire article. Nishkid64 (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind commenting on my specific suggestions? i ^said 22:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Four days later; no conversation. I'll probably start removing them in the next day or two barring serious objection. i ^said 22:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as how I created the majority of the images, I would like to be the one to remove them instead.

Please tell me the number of fair use that is allowed at most and I will choose which one goes, especially since I am more likely to know which ones are relevant and which ones aren't.

By the way, only two images in all of the RuneScape articles besides the logo are not fair use. Even the current maps are fair use seeing as how they are copied straight from the RuneScape website, so they're hardly any more acceptable than the other images. Tarikochi 22:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You do not own the images or the articles, so the fact that you uploaded the images does not give you special rights to remove ones. There is no set number of fair use; they should just be kept as low as possible while still have enough to illustrate the topic. I made suggestions above as to what, to me, an outsider, illustrates the topic best. Would you comment on that list, or make another one that you would prefer that we can comment on? i ^said 22:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not say I own the images. I said I created them, so I would prefer that you please read what I said closely before responding.

And "low" is not very specific in the amount needed.

As an outsider, I believe you hardly know which ones are appropriate to the article, so it would be much more appropriate if I remove them myself. The list I already know myself, and would not be necessary to be told if all I get is "low". Tarikochi 23:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I read what you said. You said that since you were the one who uploaded them, you should get to remove them. WP:OWN is the relevant policy. And actually, as an outsider, I know which ones help me understand the subject the best. Because they are all fair use, we need to have a balance between illustration and keeping FU images to a minimum. And there is no quantified limit. Its just 'a minimum'. I believe that removing the ones I suggested gets it close enough to a 'mimimum' while still aiding understanding effectively. As a side note, you can use '''three single-quotes to bold enclosed text''' in Wikimarkup; you do not need to use <b> </b> tags. Double quotes for italics. i ^said 23:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Cant people have multiple accounts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenny10 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes? What does that have to do with anything? On a related note, I am going to remove the images shortly. i ^said 22:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes, take a look at WP:SOCK (assuming you mean on Wikipedia). CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 23:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the images. i ^said 02:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Meh opinions

I'm going to leave in comments about which images I would keep in the article and which images I would remove. First of all, the basic aim for this article is to use selectable and varying images in the article. By this, I mean that there shouldn't be too many fair use images, but enough to give a wide view of Runescape. Because, fair use images of computer games should be used for identification purposes only, and not as a gallery of what kind of things you can find in Runescape. In Template:Non-free game screenshot, identifaction purposes either of the game itself or some characters/items in the game.

• The first two images in the article (1 and 2), about DeviousMUD and Runescape Classic, I'd keep these because those are definitely for identification purposes of a minority of RuneScape. And definitely because you can't access into these games anymore. (Unless a regular to RSC.)
• The third image (3) is a map of the server locations. Definite keep, because it is not copyrighted. It is always a bonus for articles, for at least one public domain/GPL/CC licenced image, to be included. The text both in the image and in the article is a duplicate though - it should be enough in the image to describe, where are the servers located.
• Now for the first Runescape 2 image (4), this image is a description to, which skills are not available to the unpaid version of Runescape. What I'm asking, that is it necessary as an information source? It only tells about an example, what is different between P2P and F2P versions of the game. Since the image is fair use - it isn't a good idea so I'd remove it.
• There's an image where a player is mining a rock (5), as a description of what a skill could be in Runescape. However, the very next image (6) shows an animated picture of a player slaying an NPC in combat. This is a skill also, and having two images about skills is more than enough for simple identification in the main Runescape article. I'd remove the mining rock image and keep the combat image.
• The last image (7) is a temporary image of moderator crowns. To be honest, it is part of in-game and you are instructed to read the rules before playing the game - and between the rules you will possibly approach the fact, what do the crowns mean. This isn't very useful for non-players, because the image is just a set of icons, how to identify a moderator in-game, and the article text should be enough to tell that there are moderators in game. I'd remove it, as the image isn't much of use in it's current state.

We still need some other images, to identify every possible gameplay fact of Runescape, while keeping the amount of fair use images limited. What do I feel, that we need at least the following media:

• A screenshot of the whole gameplay screen, only the player names removed out from the image, to identify how is the game interface arranged.
• A screenshot of a crowded place. This would be a fine example/proof of the popularity in Runescape. If possible, could be merged into one image with the phrase mentioned above.
• A monster. As seen in the template, identification of copyrighted characters also. We already have the King Black Dragon image, and I'd keep that one, as it's the best image in quality/animation about an example monster in Runescape.
• Quest interface. For example, events occurring in a quest, NPC talking, etc... We need to give a view, what could you do in Runescape.
• A screenshot of talking/activity of both player and jagex moderators. This isn't just about the "crowns", but more like how do moderators act in-game.
• A public domain/GPL/CC image which is not just about graphs. If it's possible in anyway, somehow relating to Runescape, to include a non-fair-use image to the article, to show that Runescape is not just about fair use. What I was thinking, real-life results somehow inspired by Runescape. For example, player's gallery in Runescape, is a great source for this, but not just "any" picture, but an encyclopedic one.
• A piece of music in Runescape. I am throwing this in as a wildcard, because I am 100% unsure if it would be allowed to include in a sample music found from Runescape. The length should be about 30 seconds, and the music should be one of the very first musics found in the F2P version of the game.

Opinions about this are more than welcome. ~Iceshark7 18:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Everybody! And a question about Rs Working on Wii Internet Channel?

Hiya everybody. I've been kinda tied up for a while with work, and now sophomore year of high school so i havent been around much, but i'm not dead. I was sorta wondering if anyone knows if RuneScape (not Run Escape, that discussion was idiotic) works on the Opera based browser on the Wii. but other then that i'm pretty much brainwashed from too much Naruto / Naruto Abridged on Youtube. → p00rleno (lvl 87) ←ROCKS^C_RS 00:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Permanantly Distracted Until December 3!

One thing I'm sure is that your signature is way too long! OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 01:46, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. It's only three lines of wikitext. A bit on the foofy side, but if it's under the 255 characters limit, (which I presume it is, unless you manually type it) it's policy wise ok. i ^said 02:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Perm Distraction is not part of sig lol, my sig is here! But, that's all. → p00rleno (lvl 87) ←ROCKS^C_RS 13:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Permanantly Distracted Until December 3!

To answer your question, as of a few months ago, it doesn't work. My wireless router isn't set up correctly now, and so I can't really try again. The forums and such work though. Comrade Tux 22:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the reason it doesn't work is because the internet that the wii runs on doesn't support Java. Tesfan 00:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Zezima is RuneScape?

Why does the article Zezima redirect to RuneScape?

I'm beginning to get suspicious...

--70.252.189.152 01:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's because that page was repeatably recreated but there isn't exactly anything we have to say about Zezima, (nn runescape player) so it redirects to the closesest page on the subject. (I think) - note that Zezima is in "Category: Protected redirects" OSborn^arf 01:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I know Zezima is a RuneScape player, but why does the Zezima article even exist? There isn't a Kid Evil 1 article, is there? I know they're number one on the hiscores, but that doesn't make them deserve an article. Besides, if you don't play RuneScape, you most likely have no idea who Zezima is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.18.35 (talk) 20:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It exists to be protected, so people don't create another one- yes, Zezima is quite nn (not notable.) OSborn^arf 21:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The redirect exists because Zezima is the most notable RuneScape player, but still non-notable. If people type in "Zezima", they probably want information about him. Since there aren't any non-trivial independent sources which can give that to us, then an article on Zezima cannot be created. --Hojimachong^talk 05:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Zezima is a pakistani (or bengali) name. Although the "a" at the end makes it a feminine name (just like the e at the end of a french word...). So whoever is redirecting Zezima's name here, just remove the redirect codes and tell an administrator to lock the page please. --• Storkian • 12:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Private Servers

I think private servers should be mentioned in this article somewhere Diablo1123 05:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I say no: They are nn copyright violations. I believe a page on them was AfDed some time ago. Are there established sources on them? Are they notable? OSborn^arf 05:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works, we don't link to copyright violations (which is what the private servers are, as RuneScape is copyrighted and Jagex have never released the source code). Sorry. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Private Server attempts happen in almost every popular MMORPG found in the Internet. There is no need to mention about it in the RuneScape article, as it's a regulary occuring thing between many games. ~Iceshark7 17:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested edit protect to Zezima and Talk:Zezima

{{editprotected}}

Please add:

{{R unprintworthy}}

to Zezima

and

{{r to documentation}}

to Talk:Zezima

This was the closest place to make the request as both pages have been fully protected. ~Iceshark7 16:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 01:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

When editing this article, please remember

WP:Cruft is an essay, not a policy. Pictures or sections of articles should not be removed by waving WP:cruft in people's faces. Tesfan 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

If they're being removed because "OMG we must follow WP:CRUFT", then you're right. But if things are being removed because they are insignificant and give no information that any general reader would care about, then it doesn't matter if someone just uses the accepted shorthand for that argument, which is "WP:CRUFT". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amarkov (talk • contribs)

The main reason some of the pictures are being removed is because the pictures are fair-use. Images about games should be only used for identification purposes and not as a gallery, and what are we trying at the moment is to give in a reasonable amount of images of all sorts about Runescape, hence some of the images have to be removed anyway. ~Iceshark7 07:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

10 million players!

That sounds fake. People can create up to 100 accounts per person. Absolutely ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Runescapehater (talk • contribs) 23:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Just please tell me you aren't the same person who keeps adding the unsourced statement about this? ~Iceshark7 23:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet he's a sock of User:Maplefan.. someone really needs to block them both. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 00:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

With over ten million free accounts [...] RuneScape is rated among the most popular online games in the world. [...] More than five million unique players access their accounts to play RuneScape at least once a month. Where does it say RS has ten million players? Comrade Tux 06:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere, but people could read it and assume it was supposed to mean 10,000,000 individual people. I even assumed that when I first read it. ÇɧĭДfrĪĔпd12 08:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It says accounts, and then it states how many users there are. It is worded fine. - • The Giant Puffin • 16:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

With regards to Maplefan, he's causing a lot of trouble at MapleStory. He removed information that received consensus. Every time I revert his removal, he adds it back. See [1][2][3] Judging from Maplefan and Runescapehater's contributions, I believe that they're sockpuppets. Both only concentrate "their" editing on MapleStory and Runescape. Want me to go report? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

You could possibly go and report, but what I see that User:Runescapehater is an invalid name anyway, breaking the first rule of section 5 in Wikipedia:Username. If User:Maplefan keeps creating socks, then a report of sockpuppetry might be necessary. ~Iceshark7 17:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's a good idea. Runescapehater is also an "offensive [username] [...] likely to make harmonious editing difficult or impossible" (WP:IU item 5). CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 18:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that name is not offensive in admin's mind. I have reported a user named Anti-MapleStory for bad username and an admin only asks his reason behind making this username. His name remains unchanged. I doubt if Runescapehater will be forced to change his name. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 23:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Anti-MapleStory is not that serious than User:Runescapehater is, in my opinion. The word "Anti" isn't really an "Username that promotes a controversial or potentially inflammatory point of view.", because it is not so heavy is you just sightread the username. (However, if people get annoyed then a name such as that should be proposed to be switched.) User:Runescapehater certainly is a controversial and a potentially inflammatory point of view, because it gives a clear message that he hates the game. (And WP:POVs are not very supported here.) ~Iceshark7 04:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh oh, Maplefan is reverting against consensus again. [4] [5]. Just found out Runescapehater left a message on MapleStory. [6]. I think it's now safe to assume that they're sock. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 02:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE get some action on this? I'm still a little hazy on procedure for getting an admin to block. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 02:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm jumping in waist-deep water here, but I went ahead and reported him to WP:AIV. If this goes on, somebody should request page protection. --Hojimachong^talk 02:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I did report Maplefan before, at AIV, and got turned down. [7] OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous.. we got turned down AGAIN. Content dispute my arse! And now apparently it was "resolved after discussion". What resolve? The thing we have consensus for is that his editing must stop, it is vandalism, not a content dispute. It would be a content dispute if it actually contained CONTENT. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 04:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

If I'm understanding this correctly, you guys have A). warned the other party several times, B). Gone through the first two steps of WP:DR, and C). requested blocking multiple times. IMO, the best possible course of action would be an RFC or building a strong consensus here, which could be used as justification for further reverts. I think that this process is quite annoying, considering that the text in question is non-neutral and crufty, but petty arguing wouldn't do much good anymore. --Hojimachong^talk 05:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, a long term abuse report could be attempted. --Hojimachong^talk 05:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Go to WP:ANI. LTA is more for the more obvious vandals (those who move random pages to Article name ON WHEELS!!!!, for example). This isn't much of a content dispute, it's just unsourced OR-POV and borderline trolling, because they don't like the subject of the article. Since they're ignoring requests to stop and discuss their edits, I doubt an RFC will do much. WP:RFCU if you want to do a sockpuppet check, but I'm not sure if they are. They have slightly different writing styles and Runescapehater doesn't sign posts, whilst Maplefan usually does. If anything, they're probably friends cooperating. This is unnacceptable, Maplefan's lucky not to have been blocked for that. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 14:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we're on the MF issue, we need facts that really show how much of a problem he's been for the MS and RS articles. (Like how many times he's vandalized them each) I'd do it myself, but I'm a tad busy, and I have a lousy connection at home; I use my computer here to edit. If I were to do it, it'd have to wait until tomorrow at best. Jump! Slash! Dash! Ouch! Super Mario SonicBOOM! 15:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, Cap'n, don't forget that the signing thing could be a ploy by Maple to hide the fact of sockpuppetry, if he is really a puppet. Jump! Slash! Dash! Ouch! Super Mario SonicBOOM! 16:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

True. They do behave differently, Maplefan edits existing articles, but Runescapehater prefers soapboxing on his/her userpage. Still, you could be right. By the way, I think SineBot's getting confused by your sig because it detects unsigned posts by looking for a link to the User: or User talk: namespaces in the post. Either opt out or alter your sig to link to your userpage, and SineBot should leave you alone. CaptainVindaloo ^{t c e} 16:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)