Talk:Hamilton

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tyrenius (talk | contribs) at 02:16, 12 February 2007 (→‎Disambiguation page: *Not a very useful community participation when support is being [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Scottish_Wikipedians%27_notice_board&diff=prev&oldi). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The introduction seems to assume that family is the source of every Hamilton name, which I don't believe is true (e.g. Hamilton New Zealand was named after Captain Fane Charles Hamilton, war hero of the 1860s - was he of the same family?). Winstonwolfe

Um.... why on earth is Alexander Hamilton not up here? Above unsigned post by 24.136.241.79.

I have nothing to do with this page, but I'm guessing because it only lists people whose first name is Hamilton.Winstonwolfe 03:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing the [citation needed]. Sorry to disappoint, But the family at the top of the page IS the source of every Hamilton name. Walter FitzGilbert of "Hambleton" was granted the lands of Cadzow, near Glasgow in the thirteenth century and gave his name to the area. He was the progenitor of the House of Hamilton. The Hamiltons grew in influence, and at a time when tenantry took on the names of their feudal superiors, and when intermarriage without your community was almost taboo, the family grew exponentially to become the fourth most common name in Scotland. Every township, every city, everybody with the name Hamilton has a descent from Walter FitzGilbert. When cited as being renowned that does not mean 'nice', certain Hamiltons became plantation owners in the Caribbean and their slaves latterly took their name also. Winstonwolfe's John Charles Fane Hamilton is very definitely a cousin of the Duke of the Day, William Alexander Louis Stephen Douglas-Hamilton, 12th Duke of Hamilton Brendandh 07:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for adding this valuable point to the article. Can you please cite the source of your information. You may want to review WP:RS and WP:CITE policies. Alan.ca 04:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What would you care for?

There is more...

However, if any more information is required, I would kindly suggest looking at the articles relating to the various Hamiltons, rather than the inappropriate addition of references to a disambiguation page where the only purpose is to disambiguate between articles. Brendandh 23:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, now include the best citation in the article and we don't have a problem. Alan.ca 01:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for a very thorough answer to my question. Winstonwolfe 05:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Source citations

  1. ^ South Lanarkshire's web History
  2. ^ Hamilton Family DNA project
  3. ^ Surnames
  4. ^ Ib idem ref. 1

Are incomplete source citations. Please see WP:CITE. If someone can provide more details on these source citations I am willing to assist with including the information. Web references should include a URL and accessdate, see {{cite web}}. I have no idea what "Surnames" means. As for the "Family DNA project" where is it located, how were the facts published? What is Ibidem? Alan.ca 06:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ib idem is a Latin phrase meaning the same. - Kittybrewster 19:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, I really do not know what your problem is.

  1. My name is Brendan Douglas-Hamilton. My Grandfather was the 14th Duke of Hamilton, his father was the last Duke to live in Hamilton Palace. I think that I should know a little about whether or not my direct ancestor Gilbert fitz William etc was the progenitor of the name Hamilton.
  2. My ancestor was given the lands of Cadzow, where Hamilton stands now in the 14th century, a gift of Robert the Bruce. This some 400 years before your state of Ontario came into existence.
  3. In 1445 or thereabouts the town of Cadzow changed it's name to Hamilton, in honour of its patron's accession to the Scottish peerage. Following the marriage of the 3rd Duchess of Hamilton to the Earl of Selkirk in 1656 the town of Hamilton added a heart to its arms in recognition of his Douglas ancestry.
  4. If you do not know that that Hamilton, Ontario is the largest by head of population 10 times that of Hamilton in Lanarkshire, you are simply not doing your research properly.

Furthermore as said previously, these are not things appropriate to be cited on a disambiguation page. Look at the articles themselves for any references you need. Brendandh 10:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wikipedia has policies for inclusion. The encyclopedia does not support Original Research and information included must be Verifiable. When I am tagging this information, I am not asserting that it is not true, but that source citations should be included for controversial statements. Are you saying that you have verifiable sources for the information and don't know how to include them or are you arguing that you are meeting these policies? Alan.ca 00:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


It also has style manuals for how to disambiguate. I've included references in this disambiguation article for the sake of an easy life. If you had conducted proper research you would have found the information readily. Controversial statements......hmm. I have only stated what is common knowledge, amongst not only amongst academics, regarding the history of one of the more influential European families of the late Mediæval to Modern age.

I'll leave you to sort out the referencing regarding the overgrown satellite in Canada. Regards Brendandh 01:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion

Coming here from WP:3O, I agree with Alan. The four references above are completely inadequate as they do not point to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be removed by anyone (WP:V). It's incumbent on those wanting to keep material to provide sources, not on those wanting to delete it, per WP:V. Accordingly, I'm removing the content until better inline citations for the specific facts are provided. Sandstein 07:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit my concern was to see some thought had been given to the assertion, not to demand detailed citation. I note the DNA source doesn't exactly support the one descent claim; "In order to answer the question whether there is mainly one, or there are many initiating Hamilton ancestors...". Which doesn't, of course, mean it is incorrect, but perhpas removing it in the mean time is the best idea. Winstonwolfe 08:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crap citing

Apologies for the above, am still getting to grips with wiki editing for the dyslexic and I really enjoyed the Biting, wonderful stuff! Anyhow point stands. The citations I've just re-entered shouldn't really be on a disambig page, but rather their respective articles. As said before--easy life.

HOWEVER, disambiguation articles should explain their point. There is no doubt that the name of Hamilton originates recordably from the family of Walter fitz Gilbert in south central Scotland in the 12c.

Whosoever that spread the name throughout the world has a connection (however tenuous) with the family of Hamilton. exempli gratia Vacuum cleaners being called Hoovers. Brendandh 01:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism tag

I suggest that User:Alan.ca look at Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types of vandalism and Wikipedia:Vandalism#What vandalism is not before throwing accusations of it around. Brendandh 11:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation page

This page exists purely so that people can find the article they want. It is not the place to make claims. It should not have references, because there should be nothing new to reference. Claims should be sorted out in the relevant article. If they are established there, then they can be referred to here. The article on Hamilton, South Lanarkshire does not say it is the original one, so until it does and is accepted by editors there, that claim should not be mentioned on this page. Conversely it does say it is the site of Hamilton Palace, so that can be included here and there is no need to reference here, as all that should be sorted out in the article.

I have also removed all the material commented out. That is for an article on the subject, not a disambiguation page. It can easily be retrieved from the history and used in the proper place.

Tyrenius 21:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tyrenius, I have not been able to resolve this issue on my own and what you have written makes sense. Should the page be moved to a name amended with (Disambiguation)? Alan.ca 22:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pleasure. I've moved it to Hamilton (disambiguation) (lower case on the d). Hamilton is now a redirect to it, but can be reclaimed if anyone wants to in order to write an article with that title. To open the redirect page, click on Hamilton, it will take you to Hamilton (disambiguation), which will have a link to Hamilton near the top. Click on that link and you can then edit Hamilton. Tyrenius 03:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is incorrect. Unless there is some primary topic at the simple name, i.e., Hamilton, the disambiguation page should reside at the simple name. I will be moving it back momentarily. If there is a desire to write an article about Hamilton as a name, there is a precedent to name it something like Hamilton (name) (there are some articles named using onomastics as the parenthetical term, but that is so unfamiliar as to render the link useless, IMO). older ≠ wiser 03:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that the problem on this page was that someone was using it as an article called Hamilton and that the material should be in an article with that name, which would be the primary article on the subject. Editors can make any views known below. Tyrenius 04:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support DAB Page named "Hamilton" After reading the statement above by older/wiser, user:Bkonrad, I am inclined to agree that we should not amend the name with (disambiguation). As the people writing about Hamilton (surname) could create an article with that name with the surname appended. It does seem likely that visitors looking for the various Hamilton cities would be frustrated by a hitting a surname article when they should be directed to this dab page. I know when I first searched for Hamilton, Ontario in Wikipedia I used Hamilton as the keyword as at the time I was unaware of the other international usage of the name. Alan.ca 08:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagree The point is still as above. All places and people with the name Hamilton, have an historic connection with the family that originally used the name. Hamilton as an article should be about the origins of the name, its history and its use as a placename. A DAB link included at the top of the page to redirect to Hamilton (disambiguation) would be adequate to cover the various Hamiltonian possibilities. Brendandh 10:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • COI of User:Brendandh Note: "My name is Brendan Douglas-Hamilton. My Grandfather was the 14th Duke of Hamilton, his father was the last Duke to live in Hamilton Palace. I think that I should know a little about whether or not my direct ancestor Gilbert fitz William etc was the progenitor of the name Hamilton." Alan.ca 10:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In respect to your concerns about my conduct, this would not be the forum for that discussion. I posted a note on your talk page about WP:COI. Alan.ca 11:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it would help, but you might like to check out Tate and Spectrum and any others similar for comparison.Tyrenius 13:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the question at hand is whether an article about Hamilton as a name should be the primary topic. Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic describes a primary topic: When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. Where there is no such clearly dominant usage there is no primary topic page.
I don't see that background information about the name Hamilton could ever be considered as the primary topic (that is, the intended target of links). older ≠ wiser 14:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I agree with Brendandh. Hamilton should be used by anyone who wants to write about the name of Hamilton, just like Fraser is used to talk about the name of Fraser (granted, it's also a DAB page). If such a page needs to be expanded past a paragraph or two, then the DAB should be moved back to Hamilton (disambiguation), because that is the most apt title for a disambiguation page. Plan and simple. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 18:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with brendandh. This is absolutely the right page for settng out the source of the name. I also think User:Alan.ca is wrong in suggesting that User:Brendandh might have a WP:COI. By contrast I would think brendandh has an expertise, knowledge and interest in improving the article and ensuring it is right. - Kittybrewster 23:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with brendandh – a brief clarification of the origin of the name is appropriate, perhaps with links to a clan page or with a separate disambiguation page as suggested. COI notification: my mother's maiden name was Hamilton, and when young I had an Ancient Hunting Hamilton kilt. However I now claim allegiance to Clan MacSouza, and my son wears the Black Watch tartan. Make what you will of that. ... dave souza, talk 01:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting I am surprised to read that three editors who are active participants in Wikiprojects to maintain Scottish interests agree with their colleague. You may all be well served to read WP:COI, it might explain why so many of you are getting caught up in frustrating, emotional arguments so frequently. Alan.ca 01:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not a very useful community participation when support is being drummed up from one interest group and a personal attack being made to boot. The example of Fraser indicates that we should keep things as they are. Tyrenius 02:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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