Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

Topic: Galleries (Nov 2005 – Jan 2006) Topic: Newspaper Articles (May - July 2007) Topic: "Unencyclopedic" (2003) Topic: Trivia (July 2007 - ongoing; partially archived)

A radical way of rethinking WP:NOT

Based on thinking about PLOT and how other sections of NOT work, I've come to realize that as NOT is worded, it is trying to say a heck of a lot that apply to three very different types of concepts: what content is not to be included at all (inclusion guidelines), what approach to writing about content is not to be used (style guidelines), and what types of behavior are not acceptable (behavioral guidelines). There are some that overlap but for the most part each specific point (like PLOT) can be classified into one of these. Now, I know its great that we nave this page we can point new editors to, saying "ok, this is what WP is not" and its nice and concise in that fashion, but because all of these are combined, in the current inclusionists/deletionsists atmosphere, remedies that work for class of the above are being pushed for other classes where that type of remedy is inappropriate. In other words, there are some that see any failure of NOT to be a reason for deletion, for example. (Failing PLOT, the most common example, is not necessary a reason for deletion, but instead should be improved or cleaned up) The problem is that the specific instances of the above are all mixed up in NOT that it makes it hard to see the difference between them.

I'm not sure exactly what the right way to fix this is, if it can be fixed or not, nor expecting this to be turned around quickly, but I'm trying to put this out there to see how others feel. My first thought is to reorder this page to have a major section on each of the above, then describe the proper remedies to resolve those before introducing them all. For content not to be included, that would be along the path of deletion, while content in poor style should go in the path of editing improvements, for example.

But this also leads to the fact that for the first class, improper content, we really do lack an inclusion guideline. We have what is not appropriate but here in NOT, and we have one case of what is, as per WP:NOTE, but that leaves a large hole between the two without any guidance. Thus, to some extent, another possible way to deal with this is that we create three separate policy pages based off NOT, one becoming the inclusion policy page (with what is and is not appropriate, relying but not citing NOTE for guidance), one being a page for improper editing behavior, and the rest (the style problems) probably left here. However, that means we do have to separate these elements and that may be a more difficult barrier to get over.

Again, I'm not sure yet what the answer could be here. I'm just trying to brainstorm if there is a way to improve NOT to make it easier to appreciate and understand how content that fails NOT will be dealt with, that possibly be variable depending on the type of content. --MASEM 14:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#PLOT should really only concerned with content issues and this could be rectified by a simple statement such as

"Wikipedia articles on fictional topics should offer real-world context and sourced analysis, not solely a plot summary".

In my view, the current wording is a watered down version of the policy wording compared with last year's version, and now includes the wishy-washy statement that "A concise plot summary is appropriate as part of the larger coverage of a fictional work". Since this statement neither proscribes or prohibits content per se, it seems to say that plot is a style issues, and should be dropped in my view. This would be the most straight-foward way to clarify the wording. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Two points:

1. That clause was added because people were interpreting the old wording as meaning that no plot summaries should exist.
2. Masem's not talking about WP:PLOT, Masem's talking about all of WP:NOT.

Hope that helps. SamBC(talk) 17:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sambc said what I basically what I was going to say: I just want to think about all of NOT (PLOT is called out specifically, but every clause should be considered). I don't dispute anything stated here as policy, but I think there's a better way to organize it that may make this easier to understand. --MASEM 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Masem may be on to something here, but I'm very uncertain as to how it should actually be done. What seems to be the ultimate and (somewhat) obvious conclusion of this would mean at least slight restructuring of most WP policy/guidelines. Note that I say restructuring, not actually changing. I don't see any need (as part of this) to change what any policy says. However, the idea of having a "root" policy page for content, behaviour, and inclusion makes sense, that each call to other policy and guideline pages while stating the "first principles" that the policy and guidance is based on. To some extent these things already exist, but consolidation and rationalisation will make them easier to understand. It will also help to distinguish between content policy and inclusion policy (inclusion is at the level from article to topic, content is mostly below the level of article). How to go about it, well, that's a harder question. SamBC(talk) 10:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you can get much clearer or more concise a guideline than WP:NOT. Why fix it, if it ain't broke? --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have for some time wanted to do this, but the first step is divide the behavioral and the content guidelines--there is much more agreement on the behavioral ones,and I dont think we'd want to weaken them. They are fundamentally different: the behavioral ones talk about the project, the content ones about the encyclopedia. Ideally the second step would be to find something we can agree one, but we may be stuck with gnomic utterances. for example:

as for the fiction, perhaps we're getting close-- how about : "Wikipedia coverage on fictional topics should include real-world context and sourced analysis, as well as plot summary". The key point of disagreement is "articles" vs "coverage" -- what goes in particular individual articles is indeed a style guideline. What goes or doesnt in Wikipedia as a whole is a matter of policy.

But I'd go a good deal further--the content guidelines should be worded as positives, and the page called Content Policy. DGG (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Elaborations on "Wikipedia is not a traditional encyclopedia"

user:Yvwv recently added what I thought were some fairly non-controversial additions to this page. They were promptly reverted with the comment "Discuss major policy changes on the talk page first." While I think the section on "not quality-assured" needed a rewrite to describe the controls that we do have instead of the traditional academic controls, I thought it was a reasonable draft and appropriate to boldly make. It did not seem to me like the kind of major change that needed weeks of discussion first. What am I missing here? Rossami (talk) 16:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The only change I saw being "bad" relatively was that the first top level heading was changed from "Style and Format" (which aligned with "Content" and "Community" headings) to "Wikipedia is not a traditional encyclopedia". These top levels should stay consistent, but the rest of the changes seemed positive and non-confrontational. --MASEM 17:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is not a lot of things. It is not a brick, for instance. But we don't have that in the policy here. The issue is, why are each of these new additions needed at the policy level? Policies are supposed to be followed by all editors at all times. Keeping this in mind, let's look at the new additions one by one.

• The "Not quality assured" section. Saying that the information on Wikipedia is unreliable seems contrary to WP:V. There already is a general content disclaimer. Furthermore, what is the purpose of having an encyclopedia at all if it is unreliable by design?

• I also question the need to say that "Wikipedia is not proprietary." I have less of a problem with this, but I wonder what the need is in this policy. We already have the Wikipedia:Copyright policy for this, and it is much more detailed. Is there anything to be gained by having it reiterated here?

• Finally, the section on writing for a global audience, while a good idea, is a far cry from being a policy-level matter. Perhaps an editorial guideline is a better place of this kind of thing. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 02:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposing WP:FICT for global acceptance

Following the long discussions about the rewording and/or removal of NOT#PLOT here last month, the editors of the currently disputed/proposed guideline WP:FICT (which combines WP:NOTABILITY and WP:NOT#PLOT) believe it is ready for global acceptance and ask for input at WT:FICT#RfC: Proposing WP:FICT for global acceptance. – sgeureka ^t•c 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

not a good idea at this time--the very basics parts of it are being revisited by several people. Turns out a good deal isnt at all clear. I hope the time will come, but the lack of activity last month was merely from exhaustion. DGG (talk) 03:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I would almost say that it's forcing a rechallenging of what NOTE means (demonstrated by the recent RFC added there), in that are secondary sourcing absolute or are there others. I will easily admit that if the latter is true, FICT can be written to fix that point, but that's a critical aspect of both discussions. (PLOT is also being challenged as well). --MASEM 03:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a soapbox

Do we need to add a section about not being a soapbox to warn against the worlds ills? I'm thinking of the people who create WP:BLP violations about not notable individuals as a sort of public service announcement. You name a heinous crime/offense and someone will come up with someone who has committed it, and come here to tell the world. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 04:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

PLOT is disputed

Please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} from above WP:NOT#PLOT. I added[1] a {{disputedtag}} above WP:NOT#PLOT and it's been reverted by Gavin.collins[2] and Seraphim Whipp[3]. I don't know if those editors have been following this talk page since March 2008, but that section of WP:NOT *is* disputed, by me, DHowell, and many others, and that section is currently under discussion, as you can see from the small text in WP:NOT#PLOT itself, as well as in {{fiction notice}}, which is transcluded on Wikipedia talk:Plot summaries. WP:Plot summaries was created and linked from {{cent}} because PLOT is disputed. So please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} and actually look at the talk page archives, specifically these threads [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] in Archive 17, 18, and 19 — as well as these threads on the current talk page [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]. Gavin.collins and Seraphim Whipp may may also be interested in reading the comments above in the Moved the bit about plot summaries to Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook thread by DGG[21] and Ned Scott[22], about how to mark a section of a policy page as disputed. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• You are being disputatious. The extent of disagreement (and you know this perfectly well) is simply insufficient to challenge the longstanding consensus that attains to this injunction, as your repeated efforts at excision have, ironically, proven all too well. Eusebeus (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • As eloquent as ever, Eusebeus has covered everything I would want to put in a reply. Seraphim♥Whipp 22:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Adding a disputed tag to the section is "disputatious"? I suppose. The section *is* disputed after all. Although I suppose it's not as disputatious as editwarring on Scrubs episode articles. And what "injunction" are you talking about? PLOT is disputed, and it's been disputed for a while now. You think the level of discussion concerning PLOT on this talk page is insufficient to put a disputedtag above the section? This policy isn't written on stone tablets and consensus can change. A discussion about putting a disputedtag on the section is already present further up on this page. A bunch of E&C2 workshop editors re-adding PLOT to NOT is not evidence of "longstanding consensus." --Pixelface (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I agree with Pixelface. There is no consensus regarding this aspect of what Wikipedia is or is not; in fact much of what is claimed Wikipedia is not seems to lack consensus in practice. We need greater focus, time, and energy on what Wikipedia is per User:GlassCobra/Essays/What Wikipedia is and other arguments. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
      • How many Pokemon articles do we have now? -- Ned Scott 06:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
        • If it's a serious question: four pages (Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Meowth, Jigglypuff), 25 lists (of the species). Sceptre ^(talk) 08:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
          • You left out Darkrai (it's not listed on Template:Pokemon directory) I'll let you see for yourself who created that article (although I should note they merged it into a list 9 months later). Which brings up Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pokémon/Archive 18 where editors like Teggles were quoting PLOT like scripture. Editors never questioned why a particular policy page said something. If anyone had wondered why PLOT was in NOT and bothered to look, they would have found this thread, in Archive 6 of WT:NOT, where PLOT was first proposed by Hiding. There was not a strong consensus for PLOT to be policy — yet Hiding added it to policy anyway, even though Leflyman said "I think this would be an extremely contentious issue, as the vast slew of articles dealing with television shows, film, books and comics go beyond merely "plot points" into full summaries. I would not be surprised if that's a major chunk of the many articles on fictional topics." TTN was following PLOT and facing opposition everywhere he went because PLOT never had consensus. Two arbitration cases later, PLOT should be removed from NOT until there is consensus for it to be policy, and I think Hiding should probably be restricted from making any edits to any policy page. --Pixelface (talk) 03:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
        • The question is how many articles were deleted by a vocal minority that thousands of editors, readers, and donors contributed to and felt should be kept but happened to miss five day AfDs or were overwhelmed by the vocal minority in these types of discussions? Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
        • Well Ned, since you bring it up, how long is the editor that redirected all those Pokemon articles currently restricted by the arbitration commiteee from redirecting not just articles about Pokemon but all articles about television characters? --Pixelface (talk) 00:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
• There are no "many others". A vocal minority of half a dozen people don't make a section disputed. If you want to change something, please work out an alternative that may enjoy consensus before demanding change. You can read up on the brainstorming sessions from last month for inspiration. Thank you. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It does when in practice a majority of good faith contributors create and work on these articles. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Sgeureka, does this look like a half a dozen people to you? [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] And when PLOT was first proposed by Hiding, you can see these comments [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] In the past on WT:NOT, you can see these comments [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] And none of those people were involved parties of E&C1 or E&C2. This isn't the first time people have asked whether consensus exists for PLOT. [47] [48] [49] [50] And look at these AFDs where PLOT was ignored [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] Is there anyone that wasn't a party of E&C1 or E&C2 besides Gavin.collins or Seraphim Whipp who thinks PLOT is *not* disputed and under discussion? How am I supposed to write up an alternative that may enjoy consensus, when the people who want to keep PLOT in NOT can't even do that? And why is there a "brainstorming session" going on at WP:Plot summaries and linked from centralized discussions if PLOT is not disputed? Do you see above where Masem says "PLOT is also being challenged as well"? Do you see above where Collectonian asks why put a disputed template on top of WP:NOT "when its only one single item disputed?"? Do you see above where Fram says "Some people dispute the wording of WP:PLOT, so a discussion is going on to find the best wording (with some people arguing for complete removal)"? In Archive 19, Hiding says "Part of the dispute over WP:PLOT is that it is used as a reason to delete." Those editors appear to acknowledge PLOT is disputed, and they don't even want PLOT removed. So will people please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} above PLOT since PLOT is obviously disputed and obviously under discussion? --Pixelface (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

  I am well aware of the old discussions. And yes, there was disagreement what NOT#PLOT should express and where. But that doesn't mean that people dispute its essense. I read the first five of your links (my time is limited), and four of them expressed that NOT#PLOT may be be better as part of WAF, a MOS or elsewhere, i.e. they agree with its basics. Now, the way for you would be to make a proposal to move NOT#PLOT to WAF, not slap a disputed-tag on here and force others to spend their time figuring out what you want. If this thread is any indication, you and Grand are already outnumbered 5:2 (and you don't offer any solution), so there is little reason to change the old consensus status quo. – sgeureka ^t•c 06:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

  No, you don't appear to be aware of those discussions, because you thought only a "half a dozen people" think PLOT should be removed from this policy, and I already made a proposal to move PLOT to WAF in the RFC I started. And nobody has said why PLOT does not belong in WAF. So don't say I'm forcing you to spend your time figuring out what I want. Personally, I don't have time to deal with people who show up here and have no clue of the discussion that's been going on for three months. I'm not going to read this whole talk page and Archive 17, 18, and 19 for you. If this thread is any indication, I see E&C1 and E&C2 parties who oppose PLOT's removal saying that PLOT is not disputed, so I don't care if I'm outnumbered in this particular thread. If you're interested in numbers, go read the thread where PLOT was first proposed by Hiding and tell me how many people supported it and how many people thought it wasn't a good idea. PLOT is disputed. If you think PLOT should be policy, tell me why the articles Cosette, Baldrick, and Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky should be deleted right now. Several people on this talk page who want to keep PLOT in this policy acknowledge that PLOT is disputed. If you think PLOT is not disputed, are you saying PLOT is not under discussion? Are you saying {{disputedtag}} does not say "is disputed or under discussion"? I'm now going to re-add the disputed tag and ask that people stop removing it. --Pixelface (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

  Using the E&C cases to judge the concensus or lack thereof of a guideline is a bad idea. Most of the participants of those cases were there to complain about TTN's actions, and as part of that, disagreeing with any policy that TTN justified his actions on. This is not to say that there is or isn't dispute on PLOT or the like, but just that you're created a biased picture - it's just like trying to judge if we should get rid of Social Security by asking Democrats, or end the war by asking Republicans. Mind you, those that participate on NOT normally are also probably biased, but that RFC was the way of attracting the issue to the attention of the larger crowd to get an unbiased view, and though the wording may be disputed, the necessity of PLOT in NOT is not, based on that RFC. --MASEM 22:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

  Um, most of the people here now who are saying PLOT is *not* disputed are involved parties of E&C1 and E&C2 who support TTN's actions, speaking of biased pictures. Masem, is PLOT disputed or not? That's what this thread is about, the presence of the template {{disputedtag}} above PLOT. Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles wasn't an involved party of E&C1 or E&C2, and they say PLOT is disputed. So Masem, do you think a disputed tag should be placed above PLOT or not? Would you like to retract your statement that "PLOT is also being challenged as well", because it kind of makes it look like you agree that PLOT is disputed and should carry a disputedtag. --Pixelface (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

  A policy or guideline is challenged when there at least one voice that is speaking out against it - but one voice does not a consensus make; disputed becomes when there is significant question if the consensus has changed. Your RFC, perfectly reasonably asking the question if the consensus has shifted, and it showed that it has not - the wording may be in question, but the overarching idea that simply providing a plot summary for a topic is insufficient currently still has consensus. I will note I did say the regulars here are biased towards keeping PLOT for obvious reasons, but even with the RFC which drew in more uninvolved editors, that consensus still held. So should we have a disputed tag on it? No, because consensus is still there, but I think adding language as already present that there's discussion on issues of PLOT is perfectly valid, and we can still talk about it here, though again, with the same people involved, we are chasing tails. My suggestion is that you need to take your cause to NOTE. There are people that are mindset on deleting any article without secondary sources, PLOT or no PLOT. I'm trying to figure out a way through that, but I really really urge you to consider pushing there first. PLOT is not what is threatening articles on fiction, it is the adherence to NOTE that some people insist (and for the record, I don't care which way this falls, I want to get something out there that ends this constant battling between parties and leads to a better encyclopedia; my WP has been close to 80% on policy issues in the last several months, and I'd rather get back to articles.) --MASEM 23:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

  You think there's just one voice? There's not only a significant question now if consensus has changed, there's also a significant question whether consensus ever existed for PLOT in the first place. [58] [59] [60] [61] How's your RFC on FICT, which is based in part on PLOT, going by the way? The idea that simply providing a plot summary is content not suitable for Wikipedia does not "still have consensus." [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] Why should I try to get PLOT removed from NOT at WT:NOTE? NOTE is a just a guideline and WP:NOT is a policy. PLOT's designation as a policy is disputed. PLOT as a reason to delete is disputed. NOTE has nothing to do with PLOT. If people will AFD an article without secondary sources PLOT or no PLOT, why does PLOT have to remain in this policy? For someone who supposedly doesn't "care" about this, you've sure used a lot of KB expressing that. Nobody is forcing you to be here, nobody forced you to revert my edits to WP:NOT, nobody forced you to be at the E&C2 workshop, nobody forced you to waste all your time rewriting FICT — so if you'd rather get back to articles, please do so. If you think nomating the Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky article for deletion for failing PLOT improves Wikipedia, please do so. --Pixelface (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

  I completely believe PLOT to not be a reason for deletion; as with every other factor in NOT's "Content" section, these are reasons to cleanup and/or merge, and deletion should only result if there is no useful content left after cleanup (which is not the case for PLOT - plot summaries are allowed in a larger context) or the information is duplicative. PLOT works probably closer to the GUIDE section in this aspect, but also is considered IINFO, but either way, a failure of PLOT alone is not sufficient for deletion. If editors are bringing articles to AFD that only fail PLOT and somehow are fine with NOTE, we should be working to inform these editors that they should be asking for cleanup and not AFD, because if a plot-summary only article has been shown to be notable, 99.9% of the time, more info outside the plot summary can be added from the demonstration of notability. It is just that most commonly, if an article fails PLOT, it is also failing NOTE, which itself is a reason for deletion, but should only be the case if demonstration of notability has been requested but not shown. --MASEM 15:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

  We've already discussed this Masem. I know you don't like me repeating myself, so I'll point you to where you and I have already discussed this. Or you can skip to the 5th paragraph if you like.

• As for whether things in NOT are a reason for deletion, go to Archive 18. Search for "01:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)", where you falsely claimed that the deletion policy does not link to NOT in WP:DEL#REASON (it does). The Reasons for deletion section in the deletion policy linked to NOT then and it still does. You may also want to read this thread[69] again from Archive 19. And this thread[70] by DHowell on how PLOT is actually used. WP:IINFO says "Articles are not simply...plot summaries" and that is why people nominate articles that are only plot summaries for deletion and cite PLOT.

• As for the dispute about PLOT being under GUIDE or IINFO, see this thread[71] in Archive 19. And you may want to re-read this thread[72] about your suggested "Wikipedia is not a fan guide" rewrite.

• As for whether PLOT has anything to do with NOTE (it doesn't), read my reply to you on April 7, (go to Archive 17 and search for "21:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)"). In April, in RFC1 for FICT you started, read the statement by Hiding, the user who added PLOT to NOT in the first place. Hiding said, "I proposed WP:PLOT. The intention was that it be used as a tool to improve articles away from being plot, rather than a tool to delete articles about plot. It has nothing to do with notability, never has, never will. It has to do with article content. WP:PLOT doesn't apply to this question, even though a vast number of people seem to assert it does." Articles that "fail" PLOT do not necessarily "fail" NOTE. Luke Skywalker is a notable fictional character (I mentioned the article about that character clear back on January 20 in my evidence in E&C2), and yet the article is *still* pretty much just a plot summary. TTN says the article has "potential." What do you think?

• All articles on fictional characters will mainly consist of plot summaries because in order to summarize a fictional character's life, you have to summarize the events related to that character in the fictional work(s) the character appears in. The policy WP:NOT is for listing what Wikipedia is not, content not suitable for Wikipedia. If PLOT is not meant to be used as a tool to delete, it doesn't belong in WP:NOT, since PLOT's presence in NOT makes it a tool to delete, as can be seen in those AFDs you're tired of me linking to. If an article being just a plot summary is not a reason for deletion, what to you propose to do about all the AFD nominations that cite PLOT as a reason for deletion? Editors are nominating articles that are just plot summaries for deletion and citing PLOT as a reason for deletion because PLOT is in IINFO, IINFO says "Articles are not simply...plot summaries", and NOT is listed as a reason for deletion in the deletion policy. What Wikipedia is not is a reason for deletion. I think PLOT should be removed from NOT instead of trying to inform 7 million editors that PLOT is not a reason for deletion. I think PLOT should be removed from NOT because it doesn't have the consensus required to be policy. What do you think should be done? --Pixelface (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

  Better education of editors of what failing NOT (including but not limited to PLOT) means, and why AFDs should only be used as the last step in dispute resolution as outlined at WP:DEL. PLOT is an appropriate policy; editors sticking to it blindly with no other recourse but deletion are the problem. (I am not saying that at the end of a day we should never delete plot-only articles; a plot-only article may be deleted if there's no recourse for relocating or saving the content elseshwere, bu these are steps to be done first). --MASEM 03:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

  How do you propose to "better educate" 7 million editors? Masem, AFD is not a step in dispute resolution. As an admin, you should know that. WP:NOT lists things NOT suitable for Wikipedia — things like advertising, promotion, how-to guides, opinion pieces, resumes, propaganda, etc. You don't seem to realize that people nominate articles that are only plot summaries for deletion because WP:NOT says articles are not simply plot summaries. The deletion policy says "content not suitable for an encyclopedia" is a reason for deletion. The editors are simply following this policy, a policy that does not have consensus. The way to tell editors that an article being just a plot summary is not a reason for deletion, is to remove PLOT from NOT. Just about every plot summary can be merged into another article. Go ask Black Kite on his talk page what failing NOT means. Go ask Otto4711. Go ask Jay32183. Go ask Angr. Education of editors occurs on policies and guidelines Masem. --Pixelface (talk) 03:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

• Pixelface, in no shape or form do I dispute WP:PLOT. Your diff of my comment was to inform DGG about a tag that he asked about. -- Ned Scott 06:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I know you don't Ned. I didn't say you did. DGG asked how to mark a section of policy as disputed, you told him how, and I added that tag to this policy. --Pixelface (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
• I don't think it's disputed enough to warrant removal - the concept of the ruling is accepted by nearly all the contributors on this page (so much a majority you could pass RFB with it). It's just the wording that makes it screwy. Sceptre ^(talk) 08:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• Per Sguereka - a few people making a lot of noise is not equivalent to "disputed" and it's certainly not equal to "consensus". Yes, consensus can change, but you need to demonstrate that it has. Black Kite 08:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, we have no consensus on what Wikipedia isn't and if anything we need to get back to focusing on building up what it is. Thus, a vocal minority should not be permitted to advance so many AfDs. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • There is a consensus. It's why this is still policy. And the opposition is a vocal minority until it can show otherwise, which it hasn't. Simply saying that there is no consensus or that there is significant opposition to this policy means nothing unless you have something to show for it. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 10:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
      • There is no consensus which is why it is being challenged. Those supporting it our a vocal minority. There is clearly significant opposition both here and in practice by those who create and edit the articles in question and by those who also defend them in AfDs. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 17:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
        • Offer a solution for a new (better) consensus instead of claiming no current consensus. The previous proposal to reword NOT#PLOT did not gain consensus, the proposal to remove NOT-PLOT did not gain consensus. Marking the section as disputed and watching the others work out a solution that fits your views is just the lazy way out (we already have that at FICT). Until then, the previous WP:CONSENSUS stands. – sgeureka ^t•c 17:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
          • A better idea would be to just remove the section altogether as clearly the community at large does not support it. That's the solution. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
            • A better idea would be to show that such support for overthrowing NOT#PLOT exists. Doing nothing but saying that it does, again, means nothing. That and the clear opposition you've garnered through this thread is indication enough of how your attempt will end up. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 02:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
          • The people who want PLOT in NOT can't come to a consensus on what it should say, so how do you expect the people who want PLOT removed from NOT to come to a consensus on what it should say? You don't need to obtain on a policy talk page a consensus to remove a section of policy that does not have consensus. A section of policy needs consensus in order to be policy in the first place. As far as I can tell, there was never consensus to add PLOT to NOT in July 2006 when it was first proposed. As far as I can tell, the only reason PLOT remained in this policy until now is because there wasn't a handful of editors using it to delete every fiction article they could find (although I should note that Metalbladex4 removed PLOT from NOT in October 2006[73]). PLOT is ignored in AFD debates [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80], so you can't say that an article that is only a plot summary is content NOT suitable for Wikipedia, and you can't say that PLOT is a "a widely accepted standard that all users should follow." How is the Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky article an example of what Wikipedia is not? PLOT simply does not belong in the What Wikipedia is not policy. It's fine to tell editors that they should try to be make an article more than just a plot summary, which is why PLOT should be removed from NOT and moved to WP:WAF. --Pixelface (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
• In answer to Pixelface, I have already gone on record to explain that there are very good reasons why WP:NOT#PLOT is highly relevant to fictional topics. Not only have I provided arguments to show that it is not possible to write a plot summary which is not a reinterpretation of the author's interpretion of the fictional world they originally created, but I have also provided reliable secondary sources which show that plot-only articles are not encyclopedic, no matter how heavily they cite primary sources. The reason is that plot summaries fail one of the most important policies in Wikipedia, namely that All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. Works of fiction are written from one or more points of view[81], such as a first, second or third-person narration. Once you try to summarise a work of fiction, the perspective can change and a books meaning is altered in the process, but also the bias of the person writing the plot summary creeps in to replace that of the author, or reinforces a bias towoards a fictional perspective that may seek to portray real-life events from a literary viewpoint as if it were objective. If Pixelface can provide evidence that an article based on pure plot summary should be included in Wikipedia, that might provide ammunition for his arguements. However, since he has not quoted secondary sources for his argruements, they have been rebutted, and from my perspective, the disputes have been resolved, and the matter is closed.--Gavin Collins (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Devil's advocate here: they can be sourced using secondary sources; For example, The Doctor Who Reference Guide, which does a good job of summarising the episodes without straying from the author's intent. Sceptre ^(talk) 16:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Gavin, go look at some of our Featured Articles on fiction topics and count how many citations you see in the plot summaries. The fact of the matter is that editors are allowed to make descriptive summaries of sources (fictional works in this case) and put those summaries into articles. And plot summaries do not necessarily violate the neutral point of view policy. How could there be any plot summaries in Featured Articles, any plot summaries on Wikipedia if they all violate WP:NPOV? That a book can be written in first-, second-, or third-person is not what the neutral point of view policy is talking about. Sometimes it's possible to write plot summaries from secondary sources, but on Wikipedia the primary source is considered acceptable. Tell me why the articles Cosette, Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky, Baldrick, and Luke Skywalker should be deleted. Wikipedia is not paper, Wikipedia is work in progress, there is no deadline, and the editing policy says "It is wonderful when someone adds a complete, well-written, final draft to Wikipedia. This should always be encouraged. However, one of the great advantages of the Wiki system is that incomplete or poorly written first drafts of articles can evolve into polished, presentable masterpieces through the process of collaborative editing." If an editor creates a stub that is only a plot summary, that's fine. You don't have to write a Featured Article on your first draft. In the past I've argued that plot summaries should cite secondary sources, but primary sources are considered acceptable. In the past I've argued that plot summaries should cite reliable third-party published sources, but primary sources are considered acceptable. I think free online reliable secondary sources are preferable, since then a reader can immediately check the information in an article, but primary sources are considered acceptable. There's already plenty of evidence in AFDs that editors think articles that are just plot summaries shouldn't be deleted [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] I think it's fine to tell editors in WP:WAF they really should try to add more than just a plot summary to an article — but if they can't do that in five days, so what? PLOT being in WP:NOT is disputed, so please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} from above PLOT. --Pixelface (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I was actually asked about unsourced plot summaries on FAC. Normally, they're fine because the episode is the reference itself, and normally doesn't require any more synthesis than normal source interpretation. How it's cited (external vs. primary vs. both vs. none) is a matter of editor preference. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

In answer to Pixelface , WP:V says that editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed, and that if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. If an article is comprised soley of plot summary, then it probably fails WP:V, and it will always be at risk of deletion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 11:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Gavin, you may not agree with the fact that we accept primary sources as proper and indeed preferred RSs for V for plot, but nonetheless so we do. Personally, I do not think there is real agreement on either NOT PLOT or any negatively worded content guidelines here. there may be agreement with the concepts behind them, but the wording is no longer what actually applies.DGG (talk) 18:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Gavin, the editor who added PLOT to NOT is the same editor who added "if no reliable third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it" to WP:V. That editor is Hiding. On Wikipedia, plot summaries are verifiable by consulting the book/film/game/etc the summary is written from. If you cite a news article in an article, you're allowed to summarize the news article yourself. You don't have to cite someone else that summarized the news article. Similarly, an editor may cite a book in an article, and they are allowed to summarize the book themselves. They don't have to cite someone else that summarized the book. --Pixelface (talk) 03:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Pixelface that in theory plot summary can be verified if supported by chapter, scene or episode references, and can be useful where it provides context and a flavour of the work in question, but only if the article cites reliable secondary sources that provide real-world content, context, analysis and critisism. However, very often those articles that are nominated for AfD becasue they fail WP:NOT#PLOT tend to be little more than a regurgitation of primary source material, but at their worst they tend towards being primary research, personal essays or plaigarism which cannot be verified. Also plot sumamry written without chapter, scene or episode references tends to place an over-reliance on an in universe perspective. If an article gets nominated for AfD, it is usually because an undue emphasis on plot summary is just one of serveral related content and style issues relating to a lack of real-world content cited from reliable secondary sources. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• We should simply ban Pixelface. dorftrottel (talk) 18:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• No that would not be fair; he has made valid and well constructed arguments which are worth reading and resonding too, even if you disagree with him. However, if you going to mete out cruel and random punishments, I would like nominate Hiding for special attention :p With regard to the comments made by DGG, I would have to disagree, as if you look at the article Ancient characters in Stargate, which has primary sources, yet fails WP:NOT#PLOT. Without reliable secondary sources, articles like this lack real-world content, context and analysis that is need for an encyclopedic article. One symptom of this that it is an article that is over reliant on an in universe perspective, and is riddled with original research. I would say it is a prime candidate for deletion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• And I would say this list is a prime candidate for trimming&merging, especially since interviews and audio commentaries and DVD special features (IIRC) are available for at least some of the characters/actors. Your volunteering in making the info NOT#PLOT-compliant will be very much appreciated, but it will take significantly longer than opening an AfD. – sgeureka ^t•c 21:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• Why? --Pixelface (talk) 01:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

• My gut feel about this article is that it will be difficult to find real-world content from reliable secondary sources about these characters. Although Stargate cites reliable secondary sources, it will be difficult to find multiple secondary sources that discuss these characters in any depth and which would provide evidence that they are independently notable. My view is that this article is just a coatrack for an personal essays about the characters, but this can never be a substitute for real-world content, context, analysis or critism.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• I think an outright ban of Pixelface is over the top. However, I would like to see some sort of restricting him from commenting on fictional topics meta-debate - while stating an opinion is healthy, now it's getting into horse-beating territory, disruption (I think six users have now reverted him on WP:NOT#PLOT), and inflaming the dispute contrary to E&C2. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

How long has this debate gone on? It is too hard to follow. Is there a dispassionate editor who can provide a succinct summary of the debate? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't claim fully dispassionate, but I can try to be unbiased as to the history and discussion points:

The PLOT phrase was added back in 2006 - it appears to have been through local consensus on this page though some editors cautioned on its use. PLOT has since been used for justification in how to approach articles on fictional works, but more important and to part of the dispute, as a reason to delete such articles (typically in conjunction with NOTE or FICT, but often times without).

Mid 2007 is the point where TTN starts doing mass merges and deletions of such articles, leading to the two E&C cases in regards to his behavior; as ArbCom, however, they made no statement on the actual content issue (as it is not in their purview). Part of this issue includes those that believe PLOT should not be in NOT. (This is also the point where FICT begins feeling the pressure from those responding to TTN's actions and forcing the rewrite that it is now).

Earlier this year, a few alternative wordings for PLOT came along to help tidy the language or change the intent of PLOT ("brief" verse "concise" plot summary, or suggesting stronger language that WP is not a fan guide). None of these really received any strong consensus to change, but at the same time, those arguing to remove PLOT also brought this up as an option. Pixelface's RFC for if PLOT had consensus was about May of this year. Some of the issues regarding this were editor removing PLOT or moving it around NOT, but having that change reverted; presently the issue is if this section should be marked "disputed" or left as it currently is (stating discussion is taking place here).

At this point, to summarize the issue, those that feel PLOT doesn't belong in NOT argue along several ways: plenty of articles are plot-only and there are many editors that believe these to be fine; failing PLOT should not be a reason for deletion of articles and the fact it is (per both being listed at Deletion policy and how used in AFD) is a reason to move it; it is a style guideline, describing how to write articles on fiction, and thus should be moved to WP:WAF; this enforces a notability guideline at the policy level; and that PLOT never had consensus to belong here in the first place, and thus should be removed. Those in favor of keeping it generally state that the fact that PLOT has stayed in NOT for as long as it has means it has consensus, and nor was there no consensus when it was added and consensus still remains now to keep it per the current discussion; PLOT helps to maintain the core policies of WP, including V, NOR, and NPOV, and guidelines like NOTE; and PLOT belongs here in NOT because it is about the content, much as the advice about "not a travel guide" is a content restriction for geographic articles.

Hopefully that is an unbiased summary. --MASEM 14:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I would say that's a pretty good summary of the debate. --Pixelface (talk) 11:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Masem. That's pretty much what I thought. It's a pretty well defined dispute that has been thoroughly thrashed a few times over. It would be nice to wrap it up. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#NEWS

In my opinion, the section should make it much clearer that Wikipedia is not a place to put in live coverage of any events, like e.g. live scores of ongoing sports matches. dorftrottel (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. It will help new users and non-regular users of Wikipedia. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 09:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added some lines to the section, noting that edits are supposed to stand for future reference. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's be careful with the wording. I would not be proper to say that information on recent affairs is inappropriate for inclusion on principle. The point is that "breaking news" shouldn't be given special treatment over other information.

For example, a newcomer recently added some relevant and significant information to the German Fernandez article. It shouldn't have been placed at the top of the page or prefaced with "News:", but its inclusion was completely appropriate. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but even if the subjects record is quickly broken it is still notable as being a new record - I am trying to create a form of words that precludes mentioning unsuccesful attempts (although being the then second fastest person over a distance is perhaps notable enough for inclusion in an otherwise noteworthy subject). I have been here before, when I waited months for the regulatory body to ratify new world records for autogyro's so I could replace the blatantly wrong (but properly sourced to the same body) previous set of records. Publishing a set of "records" upon release of the news, only to find they are not official because of windspeed considerations (okay, more often in sprints than middle distance running), does not do the encyclopedia any favours. I am trying to find a form of words to indicate that it should be not until the results are officially declared that we can use the detail. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Aye, that's a fair point. Not sure how I'd word it either. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 23:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Everyme and I came up with this wording:

Information concerning recent developments should be included only if it has lasting encyclopedic value.

Is everyone okay with this? — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 09:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Unhelpful (to those needing the help) tautology to require “encyclopedic” qualities. Only encyclopedic content is suitable in an encyclopedia. What misconception does that help correct? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No. I don't agree to that. In theory it sounds good. But it just creates a new thing to argue over, whether a recent development has "lasting encyclopedic value." And it's a huge generalization for a very specific situation — in this case, editors updating the scores of matches at the UEFA Euro 2008 article while the games are being played. I don't think it's a big deal if an editor updates a score for a football match while the game is ongoing. If the score changes I suppose one could say those edits were only valuable for a short while, but scores in football are generally very low and every point may be the final score. One of the benefits of an online encyclopedia is that information can be updated very quickly. When someone scores a point in football, editors want to be the first to put that in the article. I certainly don't think editors who update sports scores are "mouth-breathing idiots" like Everyme said. --Pixelface (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

One of WP:NOT's primary purposes is to reign in bad ideas about Wikipedia's framework, such as making it clear —for those who are in need of that clarification— that pure plot summaries are de facto not encyclopedic articles. Those are not newly created facts, but obvious truths to any non-idiot. To paraphrase a clever warning sign I once saw: Considerate editors don't update live scores, for all others it's forbidden. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this section about plot summaries or your suggested addition to NOT#NEWS? Why exactly should "considerate editors" not update live scores — especially in sports where the cumulative final score can usually be counted on one hand? How about we change policy to say everyone who disagrees with (whatever name you're calling yourself today) is a an "idiot" and leave it at that? --Pixelface (talk) 17:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia's impersonality

I've been spotting a few editors who have lately been editing with what seems to be a disregard to the community, and some seem to have "personal crusades" which, though may be good-intentioned, lack an understanding that Wikipedia is as much an online community as it is an online encyclopedia. I should note that their edits are not disruptive, simply lacking in one aspect or another (lack of edit summary, for one) that gives them an appearance of being these lone-wolf editors. Perhaps a point should be made here in WP:NOT concerning that Wikipedia is a community and NOT personal, either in WP:SOAP or in its own section. Any thoughts to that? Brokenwit (talk) 02:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

How about "Wikipedia is not a punching bag"? Hyacinth (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I like it! 78.34.143.49 (talk) 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Is your concern with addressing these "lone-wolf" editors or with how these editors are being addressed? Hyacinth (talk) 22:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Addressing them. There seems to be a pattern that these editors believe that they can make "personal" edits to Wikipedia. As per what Calgary is saying below, I raise this issue because though they aren't making disruptive edits or vandalism as defined here, they aren't making constructive edits either. For example, there has been a few cases of section blanking without explanation, or with a personal explanation. That may not be disruptive as defined, but it can be considered disruptive in terms of editing against consensus. It's somewhat (though not entirely) comparable to the conflict-of-interest edits of late. What I'm trying to say is, maybe they are being disruptive based on interest. Brokenwit (talk) 01:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not too sure what you're saying. If an editor makes edits without providing an explanation, and someone takes issue with the edit, then the person who made the edit in the first place is simply going to have no weight in attempting to establish a consensus, which doesn't really hurt anyone but that editor. On the other hand, if the editor edits in conflict with an established consensus, or ignores attempts to establish a consensus, then the editor IS editing in conflict with Wikipedia policy, but that's covered in Wikipedia:Consensus, and I'm not sure it needs to be mentioned here as well. Although I'm still not entirely sure what you mean when you say "personal". What would you consider to be a "personal" edit? I'm sorry, i just want to be sure I fully understand what you're saying. Calgary (talk) 02:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow you. If an editor is following all of the guidelines, and their edits are constructive and not disruptive, how are they doing anything wrong? I guess I don't just understand what you're saying. I could understand if an editor was editing against consensus, or ignoring decisions made on the talk page, but that would be disruptive. If it just seems that an editor is editing out of personal interest, and not out of a desire to support the community, though, I really don't see how we could put in something to tell people not to do that. I mean, as far as I understand it, we can tell people how to edit Wikipedia, we can't tell them why. Calgary (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I know what's being said here. When I used to edit more frequently there was an issue with some editors and WP:OWN, don't know if that still exists. doktorb _words^deeds 05:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed new section: Wikipedia is not governed by statute

Might I suggest a new section under "Community"? This follows from and builds on WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY but goes up a level from rules made by bureaucrats to rules made by a legislature. IMHO Bureaucracy deals best with "instruction creep". The demands we sometimes see for "enforcement" of policy would be better dealt with in a separate section. You may feel that the writing style of this proposal is not consistent with that of the article generally; in that case re-wording it in a more consistent style would be totally cool. Scolaire (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not governed by statute

Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. They do not have the force of law. Arguments such as "policy dictates..." or "policy forbids..." have no validity, nor has the follow-on argument that "admins should be enforcing policy" or "we all have a duty to enforce policy". It is reasonable to say "in my opinion this is contrary to policy X", but if nobody agrees with you, or if your interpretation of policy X is challenged, it is wiser to bow to consensus than to invoke non-existent "laws". See also Wikipedia:Ignore all rules.

That itself looks like instruction creep. Though policy and guidelines are to a certain extent mutable and IAR does apply to wikipedia as a whole, they exist for a reason and good reason should be given before they are broken or ignored. IAR comes after discussion in my mind, not before. In some cases (like WP:BLP I believe) the policies are based on law (Florida law I think). I'm a big fan of all policies, guidelines or guidance that exists and rarely find the need to ignore them. I've never been a fan of encouraging people to ignore policy and guidelines. WLU (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really understand "looks like instruction creep". There does seem to be a lot of editors who justify the most whimsical of demands with "policy dictates..." or "policy forbids..." and cannot grasp that these policies are not set in stone, and at the moment conciencious editors trying to improve articles don't have a simple NOT that we can point them to. In my first draft, which I didn't use, I was going to say "Policies must be adhered to in serious matters such as copyright violations and the inclusion of unreferenced contentious material in biographies of living persons, but..." I do recognise and respect the need to follow policy! The reference to IAR could easily be taken out if it makes the whole section look like an "anything goes" manifesto, but bear in mind it's already linked to in the Bureaucracy section. Scolaire (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Now that you bring up Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, how is anything covered here that is not, in essence, already covered there? Calgary (talk) 16:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What I said: bureaucracy is about instruction creep, "perceived procedural errors" and such like, not about people trying to lay down the law by insisting that "policy dictates..." WP:BURO might be expanded to cover that, but at the moment it's not covered at all, hence my suggestion. Scolaire (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

To give you an idea where I'm coming from, I've recently been involved in two separate move requests where sincere but misguided editors said "the proposed name is forbidden under WP:COMMONNAME", although the proposed name was a reasonable one and enjoyed a reasonable consensus. I've also seen (many, many) edit reverts on several articles with edit summaries of "this is not allowed under WP:OR (or WP:V or WP:RS)". The editors in question simply didn't understand the relevant policies, but despite everybody explaining this to them they wouldn't back down. The situation could have been dealt with easily if we could have pointed to a NOT that said "you can't just cite a rule and leave it at that". As it stands, WP:BURO doesn't cover that at all. IMO a new section with an unambiguous heading would be better than just expanding BURO. Scolaire (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you really think it's necessary to include it as a separate section on WP:NOT, then I think it would be better to include something more clear, such as:

Wikipedia policy represents community consensus, and is meant to improve the encyclopedia, not to detract from it. While Wikipedia policy is a standard that all users should follow, it should be approached with common sense. Policy outlines a common standard for Wikipedia content and practices, but it is not meant to be used as a technicality to dismiss otherwise valid contributions which improve the encyclopedia.

In my opinion, with no offense intended, I think this sounds less presumptuous and condescending. Although I still think this is suficiently covered already. Calgary (talk) 19:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

No offense taken :-) It probably is covered if you read the whole article carefully, but I think it is desirable to have it dealt with specifically in its own section - as I said, a specific section with its own shortcut that you can point editors to. Your wording works for me. Scolaire (talk) 23:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

In principle there is no difference since the same people here have the power and the right to make content policy pages and enforce it by deleting & editing articles. It's not like there are two castes, or classes, or sets of people with opposing interests. Every editor here has the exact same rights with content and policy. (The admins check the final deletion, and close afds, but that is or at least should be a routine function--whether admins are to be seen a separate caste is another matter--but one thing they do not have the right to do in any case, which is to make policy.) Everyone who cares about, say, policy for including schools, can work on the N:Schools page and at AfDs concerning schools and at discussions of whether to merge or redirect school articles.

So why is there any difference between the two? Partly, because some people are more comfortable working at one place or the other. People who care about something shouldn't really do this--they will be more effective working at both. Unfortunately, all of us have a limited amount of time, and can't work everywhere that might be relevant--and this does give people with a strong position the opportunity to try to concentrate their efforts and carry out something that might not get more general approval. But the other reason is that changing a policy page requires a much greater degree of consensus than deleting an article. No one or two people can force an afd one way or another, but they can hold up a policy page change indefinitely--for better or worse--I'm talking completely generally. This gives a greater stability, which is fine, but it also lets it drift from reality--whether reality be defined as what happens at AfD or what most people want as policy.

I'm not sure how to solve this. Even formal criteria for the necessary supermajority for policy change will still always leave it as more conservative. And there's a problem why it is hard to get even a bare majority, let alone a supermajority. It is very easy to get general consent that change is needed about a general policy. it is much harder to get agreement on what to change it to. The basic [policies and the major guidelines affect a great number of disparate interests, and everyone will want to protect their own. In the RW, this is carried out by political bargaining, but online communities aren't good at this, because it takes two things that we don;t have: the ability for face to face contact to judge how strongly people actually do feel, and the acceptance by the group of a small number of lead negotiators.

There are other factors. By now, many of us have gotten rather good at defending our interests under the existing policies. We could probably learn to do almost as well under others, but we know how to work with there. I doubt N=2RS could be adopted ab initio, but it sort of works because we know all the necessary qualifications and work-arounds. I may really dislike the principle, but I nonetheless know how to often get what I want using it. If it changed radically, no one would be sure how it would go--that's the basic argument for conservatism in general, in the RW too. The lawyer types tend to like it, for they make a living with their knowledge of the existing rules. I might rationally decide that, though I lose about 1/3 of the articles I fight for, if the rules changed, while I might lose only 10%--but I might lose 50%, and I might not be willing to take the chance.

But I am not a conservative about the rules--here's why: the life of Wikipedia depends on keeping new people coming in, both for articles and for policy. Many very active people lose interest or time after a few years, and need to be replaced. The existing rules are a maze that takes most people many months to learn. So long, in fact, that people who join and rapidly show a knowledge of the rules tend to be suspected of sockpuppetry! the way to avoid this is the same as the way to avoid the strangulation of fossilized rules--have many fewer of them and have them simpler and less ambiguous. Better a definite decision, than arguing every case.As an example only, if I know I can't put my local losing candidates for office in, I won't even try. DGG (talk) 20:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, and please don't take offence, but I have read and re-read this post, and I just can't see what it has to do with my proposal. By any chance did you mean to post it in a different section? Scolaire (talk) 18:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll outline the argument: the question is whether policy is descriptive or prescriptive. You are arguing that the formal rules take precedence over the actual practice--what others call prescriptive. I say the describe the consensus of the current practice. I note that its odd that there's differences between what we do and what we say, since we do make our own rules. I then explain why the formal statement of this in the form of rules is always going to be somewhat behind the actual effective rules. DGG (talk) 23:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, my argument is that the formal rules do NOT take precedence over the actual practice, hence my proposal to include this in What Wikipedia is not. My idea is to educate those sincere but misguided people who talk about policy as though it was statutory law, with a penalty of a $1,000 fine or three years in prison if you violate it, as it were. So can I take it that you are in agreement with this position? Scolaire (talk) 06:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So, here is a re-statement of my proposal. I think it is important (obviously). What does anybody else think?

• Wikipedia policies are descriptive, not prescriptive. That is, policies and guidelines represent community consensus, and are meant to improve the encyclopedia; they are not a code of law. Editors and administrators alike try to ensure that policies are followed in a reasonable way for the improvement of articles, rather than "enforce" rules. While Wikipedia policy is a standard that all users should follow, it should be approached with common sense, and policy should not be used as a technicality to dismiss otherwise valid contributions which improve the encyclopedia.

Scolaire (talk) 23:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not permanent

Shouldn't we mention the fact that the information and images in Wikipedia are subject to change, and what's here today may be gone or completely different tomorrow? GO-PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 02:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a game guide?

Can someone help me to understand why "not a how to play" WP:NOTGUIDE applies only to video games and not to Acey-deucey or Cards in the hat or any of the other mainstream table and card game articles that are little more than a list of the rules? Is it time to revisit this policy to tighten it to exclude those current articles or loosen to allow computer games to have rules articles? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm actually trying to find out what the actual policy is and how it should be applied. LegoTech·(t)·(c) 03:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It does apply to those as well - they should be cleaned up significantly or merged to a larger list. --MASEM 03:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

That's what I would think, but I got told off for nominating Cards in the hat Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cards_in_the_hat so I am asking for clarification on this policy...if it's going to be applied to some articles it should be applied to all or changed to allow these types of articles in table, card, AND video and computer games. LegoTech·(t)·(c) 04:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference for NOT being a guide, and not demonstrating notability. The former is a cleanup issue; the latter is a deletion issue. The AFD showed that it, at minimal , notable, so deletion is not proper. However, it does need to be more about why the game is notable, which, when wrapped around what is there, is fine. --MASEM 04:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)