Talk:Taipei American School

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 61.229.173.93 (talk) at 10:52, 7 April 2006 (→‎Controversy section revisited). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Controversy section revisited

I would like to hear from the anonymous IP and odmk69 regarding controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.57.195 (talk • contribs) 19:15, March 30, 2006 (UTC)

The previous controversy section was quite biased and written by someone who seemed to have a grudge, so I wouldn't even make consider it. I agree with 128.61.*. We need to settle this issue and not act like kids reverting articles back and forth. First off, I am an alunmni of TAS, and still have siblings at TAS. And to get some stuff straight: TAS isn't like what it used to be. And the general Taiwanese public view of TAS is not the same either. So I wouldn't let some of your preconceived notions of TAS/Taiwan get in the way of your subconscious and conscious thinking when editing articles. I agree that we need to be very careful when putting controversy section, and i initially did not support it, but after reading the current WASC accreditation report, I believe this is relevant. Tt would be advisable for Wikibofh and BenjaminTsai (and any others) to read this if you haven't yet.

If you're like me and have read countless wikipedia articles, you've noticed that Controversy sections are very prevalent. The beauty of wikipedia is readers receive unbias, objective information that one wouldn't be able to find on an official webpage. For example, go to the article on Abercrombie and Fitch, potential buyers (including me) would find the "Controversy/Criticism" article very relevant and important when making a decision whether to purchase products from them. I think its the same way with TAS, prospective parents who are contemplating in moving to Taiwan, choosing an appropiate school and environment for their children.....they should and need to know other POPULAR viewpoints, other contrary ideas, that one would not find at www.tas.edu.tw. For example did you know that over twenty faculty members, both teachers and other staff, are leaving TAS after this school year because they feel that they can no longer function in the current environment? This is information that I believe prospective students and their parents should know. If users wanted to know specific TAS information they wouldn't be heading to this article, they would be heading over to www.tas.edu.tw. We need to be careful that this article isn't an advertisement but a complete objective encyclopedia article.

--ODMK69

I agree that the WASC material is relevant and appropriate for the Controversy section. However, the appropriateness of the other contents injected into the Controversy section is questionable (to put it mildly) and definitely not written with the lofty ideal of NPOV in mind. --BenjaminTsai Talk 03:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • WASC, maybe. The other portions, were just biased POV. The sources they provided did not validate the content. Keep it neutral. Wikibofh(talk) 05:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ODMK69 Writes: "And to get some stuff straight: TAS isn't like what it used to be." What does that mean? Without data, that's strictly POV. He/she also writes, "And the general Taiwanese public view of TAS is not the same ei"ther." Please cite your links to the surveys that support this. While people you talk to may hold such views, those cannot substitute for public views and are strictly POV. ("Data" is not the plural of "anecdote").

The controversy section is biased abd should not exist; quoting only one paragraph (and not even using the correct year) from a lengthy report is misleading. Such usage is acceptable in a blog but not in a reference section. The opening sentences of the report could have been quoted as well, "Taipei American School has a well-earned reputation for being a very good school. It has a reputation in the South East Asian region and worldwide for highly motivated students, a challenging curriculum, a very fine teaching faculty and some very pleasing external examination results." Selectively quoting material out of context is not suitable for a reference work.

Comment added 11:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide us with more information on the WASC report? I've written the Taipei American School alumni office a few days ago to confirm and request more information about the excerpt in the Controversy section, but the school is currently closed for Spring break until April 10th. --BenjaminTsai Talk 23:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Perhaps a link or a reference to the report (if it is even online) would be helpful, because right now, the quote in the TAS article is quoted from an unknown source. All I'm pretty sure that what's written is fairly accurate, it's POV...and it unless it can be shown that it is indeed a quote from the WASC report and not someone's paraphrase, it should be removed. -- Mattrixed Talk 06:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The WASC report is about 40 pages long and maintained in an area of the website that requires a username and password. As such it may not be considered as published. Second, while the paragraph may be in the report, and the paragraph does make for salacious reading, it does not begin to represent the report in its entirety. Publishing it is not NPOV. Note that "Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view." The Section violates at least one of those guidelines. As such, I've removed the section. 61.229.173.49 12:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • It is neither original research (as it was done by WASC, not us) nor a violation of WP:NPOV. NPOV does not say you can't provide criticism, it says you must try to be balanced and neutral. My main problem is verification, because we have a 40 page report that is having a single paragraph quoted. That does not give provide any context and can't be verfied as to it's accuracy. Wikibofh(talk) 14:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • WASC is the body that gives TAS full academic accreditation. So the importantce of this section is very relevant. That being said, anonIP talks about verification. 61.229.* Have you read the report? If so did you see what context the report was written? if you did, how can you think this quote is out of context? This quote is in the first section (Opening Remarks by WASC Visiting Team Chair). After briefly discussing the school's background, and the visiting team in the first two paragraphs, the WASC report immediately claims that the school is in a crisis. How can this be out of context. Crisis! Something of this nature will not appear in the 30rd page, or in some random section of a report. It is in the abstract of the report. I am friends with many senior staff members and obtained a copy of this pdf early on. I am sure it will be released to TAS parents very soon (if not already). How many of you have actually read the article?

Typatigertot 14:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • In case you didn't catch it below, the PDF was released to the school community, including parents, days after the report was delivered. And yes, it is significant that the suggestion that TAS is in a crisis appears in the Opening Remarks, I certainly don't believe that Opening Remarks can be considered as an "abstract" of the entire report. Also, I do believe the context is important. As I note in my post below, there are many other quotes which could be considered significant. If you believe it is significant that the quoted paragraph is the fourth paragraph in the Opening Remarks, perhaps there is a significance that the first talks about TAS' "well-earned reputation for being a very good school." I'm not arguing about which line is more significant, but my point is that position in the report may not be the best measure of the significance of a particular statement. In fact, I personally believe the suggestion that there is a crisis is the most notable part of the report - but it would be unfair to both TAS and WASC to only include this paragraph without including the positive things WASC highlights. It would be akin to looking at a report card with several A's and several C's and only publishing information about the C's and not the A's. Regardless of whether or not there are more C's than A's or that the C's are more notable than the A's, information about the A's still needs to be publish to provide an accurate portrayal of the report and to provide a more NPOV. (Waphle 22:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]
      • opening remarks is the closest thing to an abstract. clearly the quoted paragraph is the main point of the opneing remarks. you can post the whole body of the opening remarks in here to see 63.201.35.145 22:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I haven't because I can't get a copy.  :) Hence my concern with verifiability. Wikibofh(talk) 14:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Waphle sums up the issue very nicely with his/her comparison to a report card. One alarmest paragraph does not capture the entirety of the report and posting it violates WP:NPOV. Controversy is also not a suitable subhead as this is really about accreditation. I changed the section to "Accreditation" and rewrote it in an attempt to provide a more balanced view. And, yes, I have read the report cover to cover, I was at the presentation, and also met several times with the visiting committee. However, because the document is explicitly not a public document I don't believe it meets Verifiabilty and excerpts from it then wouldn't meet Verifiabilty. Board minutes are far more verifiable as they are posted publicly, but the minutes of the March 28 meeting are not yet posted.

By the way there are no "senior staff members" at TAS, although there are some members of the faculty and staff who have been there anywhere from well-settled-in to much-too-long. 61.229.173.93 10:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy section

Ok, can we try to hash this out now?

Now that we're not in danger of 3RR and in the middle of reverts back and forth, let's try to get this hammered out. Here are my suggestions:

  • First, create a user account, as dynamic IP's bounce all over.
  • Second, read this section , posted to my user page when I was new (hahah...about 2 weeks ago)
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia!
Here are some tips to help you get started:
P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
  • I think there is some good information at the State Department that would be good to add. Wikibofh 14:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Third, let's talk about the stuff you are trying to add and find out facts so that we can work those in. You'll notice, for instance, we didn't revert the rape case in controversy because it was sourced and relevant. You obviously have some strong views on this as well as local knowledge. Honest...that is very valuab.e

I had never even heard of TAS before this article and only got involved because of the apparent vandalism. Let's make it better and move forward. Wikibofh 23:40, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Puja Germs issue

According to only one source I was able to find on the Internet, Puja Germs apparently is some tag game [1] Some of the users on this discussion forum are a little skeptical about including the alumnus Puja Mahtani. According to the TAS Alumni Directory (which only alumni members can access), Puja graduated in 2002, which is a bit too recent to make this person a noted alumnus of the school. If Puja did go to college, then this person should by a junior in college by now. I would recommend removing this person's name from the noted alumni list, especially when we don't know if "Puja Germs" is actually defaming this person. I would like other members of this discussion to provide input and if really necessary, we could have a vote on this. I'll be using the alumni directory to verify the other alumni on the noted alumni list. Allentchang 18:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • If a discussion about the Puja Germs issue does not take place in the next two days, I will strike Puja Mahtani from the record. Allentchang 02:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Your course of action and research seem reasonable to me. Wikibofh 22:13, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Puja Germs is not just a tag game, its an entire culture. However, I can't find it a on google right now. But Puja mahtani is definitely a legit noted alumni.

Dude, Allen, Puja Mahtani is a famous alumni. She was before your time. She was a great lady. So don't desecrate her memory please.

Other alumni

Alexander Liang is probably not listed on the alumni directory because he graduated fairly recently (2004). There is a Jack Hou listed who graduated in 2002, but there is no Jack Hou graduated in 1959 listed possibly because the alumi directory doesn't go to the 50's. I will be going to the UC Berkeley Library Main Stacks to search for Time Magazine's 1969 August issue to verify Jack Hou's identity and provide the exact date of the issue. All other alumni are verified through the directory. I strongly recommend that a link/source can be provided about Alexander Liang's actions. Allentchang 18:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • I was unable to find references to Jack Hou among the August 1969 issues of time magazine. May I have the exact date and page? Please also indicate if it is the US edition or the International Edition. If I don't get enough information about where exactly to find stuff about Jack Hou in one week, I'll remove his name from the list of alumni. All I saw was Woodstock, Edward Kennedy ending up in a car accident, Nixon visiting the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceauşescu who would be killed twenty years later, Roman Polanski only 36 years old, the Vietnam War, border clashes between the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, and reports about the moon exploration. Also, I would like someone to find a link regarding Alexander Liang.

Allentchang 02:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

http://www.lib.ntust.edu.tw/php/libnews.php?mid=1371&grp=ntust.depart.dt 68.121.211.14

http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatimes/newslist/newslist-content/0%2C3546%2C110503+112001090400045%2C00.html 68.121.211.14

  • I was wondering what is the need to upload a picture of benjamin tsai and saying he is hot because it is so full of gibberish, I decided to delete it.
  • It's a personal attack on me by an anonymous editor that has been giving us a bit of trouble on this article. --BenjaminTsai Talk 10:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

why is it a personal attack? i'm doing a favor for you!! 63.201.35.145 08:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Library renovation

This summer TAS is hoping to begin construction on completing renovating the four floors of its libraries. This is the most ambitious project the school has undertaken since it moved to its present Shih Lin campus.

A team of architects from the United States worked with the TAS community to design the new library. It will be the first of its kind for an international school, with a Mandarin Library wing, wireless connectivity throughout, extensive added studies areas, and yes, even a proposed café for the rooftop.

The project is being supported by the Friends of TAS Foundation, a non-profit 501(c)3 foundation registered in the United States. We are hoping to receive donations of all amounts from parents, faculty and alumni. Please consider a contribution that fits your budget to make a meaningful difference on our campus. [2]

Daisy Yang...

I'm not sure she belongs in Noted Alumni, and whatever the incident is, it shouldn't be shoehorned there. I also don't think describing someone as from the class of 2008 is very useful. The grammar was also off but given the other deficiencies, I chose to simply revert that edit. Here is a link that seems to be about this issue...the link didn't work for me but the Goggle cache did. Wikibofh 15:39, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Balance of the Force

Several of us have tried to "balance the Force" (sorry for the cheesy Star Wars term) and tried to prevent one user from making the article too negative. Now I have the feeling that somehow it is now unbalanced towards the direction of flattery . . . . *sigh* Allentchang 21:34, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'd love to have a balanced, well sourced, factual criticism of TAS added. Regrettably, no one has been able to provide such. Wikibofh 21:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem with this is that TAS is in fact a school that does what it sets out to do very well. Criticisms of it generally comes from people who have some kind of odd chip on their shoulder.. stemming anywhere from simple envy to genuine misunderstanding, most likely somewhere in the middle. As I pointed out earlier on this page, the exclusive and perceived elitist nature of the school makes it a giant media magnet.. people love to see institutions like these falter. What would hardly pass as news at one school can stir up significant controversy if it were done by people affiliated with TAS. --BenjaminTsai 02:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Benjamin, aren't you getting a little carried away with TAS by writing these articles? 50th Anniversary of Taipei American School List of Taipei American School Superintendents Mark Ulfers Granted, you did write a very detailed article about Stuyvesant High School, which offers (gasp!) 50 AP courses. Allentchang 16:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Allen, I didn't write the article on Stuyvesant, merely edited it slightly. As for TAS.. well, perhaps, perhaps I am. :) It happens to be one of the things I can speak with some authority on. --BenjaminTsai 16:42, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

benjamin tsai you didnt even graduate from tas. what authroity do you have to speak about it 216.100.135.9 06:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And you who hides behind an anonymous IP, from what authority do you have to speak about anything? I may not have received my high school diploma from TAS, but I've spent more years (8 to be exact) at TAS than most other alumni of TAS. --BenjaminTsai 13:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ok, i am not the same anon, but i received my high school diploma from TAS and i spent 13 years at TAS. I feel more than qualified to talk about TAS. You didn't even graduate. WHy do you care? 63.201.35.145 08:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Passport, Peking University

First, there is no such thing as a "Taiwan Passport." Until pan-Green camp is successful in renaming the country to Taiwan, it will always be more accurate to refer to the passport and other government organs as belonging to the R.O.C. government.

Second, the official English name of Beijing University is "Peking University." For some reason, they haven't decided to update their name to reflect the modern pinyin standard. Until they do, please don't change it to "Beijing University." --BenjaminTsai 10:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Leading Universities

Who decides what a leading university is? I feel that some don't belong. If people add their own university all the time, it's going to start getting full. Opinions? Cliffe 03:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A leading university can be simply defined as an university which is widely considered by people within the field as a leader in some major field of study. The interesting question then becomes what a major field of study is. I feel all six listed currently satisfies this requirement, though that can change as one begins to narrow the definition of what a "major" field of study can be. --BenjaminTsai 06:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Romanizations

Hanyu Pinyin is preferred except when you're dealing with placenames. The official ways to spell these places in Taiwan can be found on Wikipedia. EX: Taipei (basterdized Wade-Giles), not T'ai-pei (correct Wade-Giles); Kaohsiung, not Kao-hsiung(Although this is the correct Wade-Giles.) Until TAS changes its name to Taibei American School, it'll still be Taipei American School. Same goes for KAS. As for people's names, spell them as how their passports spell it. (Could be verified through TAS's alumni page) By this I mean, if their first names don't have a dash, don't add one, even if it's not the correct conventions of any of the romanization systems. Because that's how their official documents spell their names.

CHINESE names: A basic rule for Wade-Giles is that the letter after the hyphen should not be capitalized. EX: Chen Shui-bian, not Chen Shui-Bian. This holds true for both MPS II and Wade-Giles. (In both Wade-Giles and MPS II, names ALWAYS contains a dash.) In Hanyu Pinyin, there's no space, or dash in between the first names. (I doubt that any TAS student would have such convention since very few TAS students are from China...Unless from HK, but HK residents aren't required to use Mandarin to spell out their names, most likely it would be in Cantonese, with a space in between the first name.) Never omits the apostrophes ' in Hanyu Pinyin. That's just like ommiting ' in O'sullivan. That being said, same goes for any other romanization systems. (Unless their legal documents state otherwise, of course.)

Here's a good site for you to check your romanizations, MPSII, Wade-Giles, Hanyu Pinyin, Yale, and Tongyong Pinyin are all here: http://140.111.34.69:8080/nationallibrary/index.jsp?open You can use this to determine in which romanization certian things are spelled.

ENGLISH names: However, if it's an English name, the first letter after the hyphen in a compoud name should be capitalized. EX: Mary-Anne, not Mary-anne.

JAPANESE names: No spaces, no dashs. Japanese passport official site: http://www.seikatubunka.metro.tokyo.jp/hebon/index.html

KOREAN names: Always a space in between the first name, first letters always capitalized. However, Koreans almost always have their LAST name placed in front of the First name. EX: Lee Jun Hee, Lee is the last name, Jun Hee is the last name. But since we're dealing with koreans in TAS, we can use the Americanized standard. Which is, to avoid confusion, write it as either Lee, Jun Hee or Jun Hee Lee.

Do we have a census on this?

I wonder why you are expressing your romanization opinions over here. You can certainly express them in the talk pages related to the Wikipedia Manual of Style. As for using the term "basterized Wade-Giles," be a little careful here as you could be confusing that with Postal Pinyin.

Allentchang 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In common practice Wade-Giles suffers from a fatal flaw. If the apostrophes are omitted from the system, Wade-Giles becomes "bastardized" (the correct term, even if sounds vaguely offensive) and largely useless. (Technically, Wade-Giles uses ayns, not apostrophes; but the distinction is not one most people need worry about.) When I say "bastardized Wade-Giles," it's not Postal Pinyin, since Postal Pinyin uses popular spellings given by other countries or local dialects.

"Basterdized Wade-Giles" is the correct term to describe the usage of omitting the apostrophes.

I felt that I needed to provide some background information on the romanization schemes since our TAS page had many erorrs on the romanizations before. However I also stressed about the importance of respecting individuals own choices of romanizations for their names. Allen, I hope this would help.


Shilin vs Shihlin

I notice that people have been reverting it back and forth between Shilin and Shihlin. Since Taipei has adopted Hanyu Pinyin has the de jure romanization scheme and the world de facto, I suggest we stick with Hanyu Romanization for street addresses in Taipei (Taibei). --BenjaminTsai Talk 02:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But all the documents as well as the official history of TAS still use a form of Wade Giles. Unless TAS officially decides to adopt Hanyu Pinyin in all of its correspondence as well as its website, we should not in effect be the Taipei City Government equivalent of the romanization fashion police. The Wikipedia Manual of Style is vague on how to exactly deal with the issue we are facing. It does indicate for instance that if a person showed preference to have his/her name romanized to a particular scheme, we should follow that scheme rather than effectively force another scheme on the person without the person's permission. For instance, my name is Allen Chang, but neither Wikipedia nor the Taipei City Government should have my name spelled as Allen Zhang. We should at least also provide a Wade Giles romanization as a reference so that visitors would not be puzzled by the differences in Romanization between the TAS website and the Wikipedia. On politically charged note, I don't completely buy the Taipei City Government's argument that we have to use Hanyu Pinyin because that is the world standard. The same argument could be used that Taipei City should adopt simplified Chinese characters because simplified Chinese characters is considered an official UN language rather than traditional Chinese characters. But this discussion would be best carried on in another discussion board. Allentchang 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't buy it, either. (That we have to use Hanyu Pinyin because it's the world standard.) I'm also a lover of correct Wade-Giles, but Hanyu Pinyin is the current Taipei (basterdized W-G)/T'ai-pei (W-G)/Taibei (Hanyu)/ Tai-bei (Tongyong;MSPII) standard, so I suggest we use it for street addresses in Taipei. But again, people have the right to choose any romanization systems they want for their own names. EX: [Alexander] Leehom Wang should never be asked to change his name just because his name isn't romanized by any of the existing romanization systems.
But again, even as a lover of correct Wade-Giles, I have also noticed it is true that Wade-Giles isn't user friendly in practice. Even a basic word such as "Taiwan" that we use daily isn't following the rules of Wade-Giles! "Taiwan" has been romanized that way since our ROC government moved to Taiwan when Hanyu Pinyin wasn't even invented yet. (It should be romanized as T'ai-wan in Wade-Giles.) [However, Taichung (basterdized W-G) was noted as T'ai-chung when the ROC government came to Taiwan.] This is because Wade-Giles is acutally more linguistically sound, developed by Dr. Wade and revised by Dr. Giles. It is indeed a better system in linguistical practice, however, it is poorly designed in the view of users who aren't natural linguistics. Therefore, one would say that the value of adopting Hanyu Pinyin is at its larger user base, resulting from it's user friendliness.
The funniest thing is that Shihlin (claimed W-G) is not following any of the existing romanization rules.
If we are aiming for a W-G reference, it should be noted as "Shih-lin" not "Shihlin."
Existing romanization spellings of "Shilin" (Hanyu):
Shilin (Hanyu)
Shih-lin (Wade-Giles)
Shr-lin (MSP II)
Shrlin (Yale)

["Romanization" creater Melvin Su]

Shilin campus

The high school moved from Taipei proper to the Shilin campus in 1964, rather than 1969. The first graduating class at Shilin was 1965.

Merging TAS Superintendents

I don't think it will be appropriate to merge the article in question into the main Taipei American School as it'll add too much clutter.. yet the article right now as an independent article may lack notability. --BenjaminTsai Talk 12:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How about only mentioning TAS's first superintendent along with Mark Ulfers and the current one (in a sentence like, in 2005, so-and-so replaced so-and-so.)? TAS Student 23:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I think this is reasonable. --BenjaminTsai Talk 23:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Is this going to happen? I'll let this sit for a few more days, then I'll change it (BTW I am TAS Student, I just finally bothered to create an account). -- Mattrixed Talk 16:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and added information about the first superintendent in the History section. I'm not sure we need to explicitly state who the current superintendent is in the main article text as it's listed in the infobox. --BenjaminTsai Talk 06:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Leading universities

"leading universities" is clearly POV as there is no official ranking of schools in the US
  - 218.161.4.195 on 17:14, March 31, 2006 in article Edit Summary

While there is no single official ranking of universities, there are many rankings that is in common use such as US News, Princeton Review, Wall Street Journal, of which US News is generally considered as the most authoritative for undergraduate rankings. Internationally we have the widely quoted Shanghai Jiao Tong University's "Academic Ranking of World Universities". --BenjaminTsai Talk 06:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

then, according to your idea of what a leading university is, most TAS students do not attend leading universities. It should be left out.

Many do, and more so than the national average for high schools within the United States or Taiwan. --BenjaminTsai Talk 10:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

many is like.. 5% of the class? lol. there are many high schools in the US with better college matriculation than TAS, yet their wikipedia pages do not state that their students attend leading universities

how come no source is needed from benjamin tsai? why do you assume that TAS has good college matriculation!?!??!?! 63.201.35.145 17:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are a bunch of reasons. Here are a few:
  1. That was the consensus version, and lack of good sources there does not mean changes shouldn't be sourced.
  2. He's a respected logged in editor, so gets more slack.
  3. We've already provided that source in the past. Here it is again, just for completeness sake.
Wikibofh(talk) 18:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Premier English-based School in Taiwan

"Taipei American School is widely considered as the premier English-based college preparatory school in Taiwan. [1]" is not a POV statement as it does not assert that Taipei American School is the premier English-based college preparatory school, only that it is a widely held view that it is the premier English-based college preparatory school. --BenjaminTsai Talk 06:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes, and I contend that it is not a widely held view that TAS is the premier english based collelge preparatory school. It is hard to verify such statements, for the sake of correctness, leave it out.

I've modified it to include only Taipei pending further evaluation of NEHS. Otherwise, it is clearly a widely held view that Taipei American School is the premier English based college preparatory school within Taipei. It's the most widely known, the one with the longest established history, the one with the largest student population (by far), the one with the best facilities, and the one that sends more students than any other English-based college preparatory school in Taiwan to tier one universities. --BenjaminTsai Talk 10:35, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it is also the one creating the most social problems. A quick google search of "premier english language school in taipei" offers no mention of TAS. What gives? What evidence do you give that TAS is the premier english school in taiwan, or taipei?

What social problems? Any problems to the city of Taipei (however rare they may be) associated with TAS are most likely caused by TAS students during after-school hours. To relate this to the school itself is just trying to support a POV against TAS. By the way? What is NEHS? I currently attend TAS, and have never heard of NEHS...so how can it be considered greater than TAS if even TAS students haven't heard of it? -- Mattrixed Talk 05:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

underage sex and drug use, fake IDs, jacking scooters, fights, disrespect of taiwanese. matrix, you haven't heard of NEHS because you are a dumbass, not because NEHS is not greater than TAS. i am a TAS alumni and i have no reason to diss TAS unless there are really problems with it.

NEHS is the National Experimental High School set up in Hsinchu Science Park specifically for the children of people who work in the Science Park. There is a bilingual division within NEHS which offers an American curriculum, though they're quite small. The graduating class this year is under 50 people as far as I can tell. As for the social issues the anonymous person listed, we all know that this never happens at any local schools in Taiwan right? *rolls eye* Finally, please refrain from ad hominem attacks. --BenjaminTsai Talk 07:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Benjamin for the NEHS info...I've been a TAS student for almost two years... never heard NEHS mentioned by anyone. As to what "anonymous" said, underage sex and drug use are found at every high school. To say this is TAS's problem is a joke. In fact, I'd say a very good portion of students are drug free and if they do engage in underage sex, they do so monogamously. Either way, that is not a problem of the school unless it takes place in the school or during school hours. Fake ID's are commonplace wherever you go, and TAS students are no more likely to steal a scooter than anyone else. Fights are extremely rare, and this disrespect of Taiwanese comment is ridiculous since over 90% of the school population is Taiwanese-American. Some may see local Taiwanese as inferior, but again, what on Earth does that have to do with the school itself? As to your calling me a dumbass...please try to avoid personal attacks. It only makes your side of the discussion look weaker. -- Mattrixed Talk 15:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mattrixed not knowing anything about NEHS is a illustration of the typical TAS student problem. I'm TAS students are isolated and live in their own TAS bubble. Sure there is a PTA/food fair, and there is community service clubs...but thats how limited the interaction between the typical TAS student and the rest of Taiwan is. Just for your own information: http://web.nehs.hc.edu.tw/ is NEHS's website if you havnen't already looked it up.

  • NEHS is relatively small compared to TAS, if you compare average SAT scores, NEHS students is consistantly higher than TAS by a significant margin. And the % of students going to prestigious schools far higher than that of TAS. I don't have official numbers to prove this, but I'm sure most who do know of people from NEHS, or are from NEHS can attest to this (class of 2002 in NEHS had an average of 1400+). If you're interested there is a pdf of their 2005 college matriculation on their homepage. I'm not proving NEHS is better.. I'm saying it is not clear cut that TAS is the best, or 'widely considered as premier ....'. If there's any doubt if its premier, or even "considered premier" than it should not be in wikipedia. "Premier" can mean many things:

first in position, rank, or importance.. which is very arguable in any of these cases. I suggest "well-known", rather than "premier". I don't agree with using "widely considered". To the Taiwanese public it can be easily argued that TAS students are "widely considered" as snobby, rich, spoiled. So what do does the author mean? "Widely considered" by who? The small international school community?

  • Back to the TAS students being in a bubble. This doesnt belongs in the wikipedia article but I would just like to mention some notables to Mattrixed. "Fake ID's are commonplace wherever you go"..this might be true in the international school community but far from true for the Taiwanese public. Look at the clubs on friday nights, there filled with underage TAS students. I remember seeing room18 packed with TAS students from 8th grade up to 12th grade. You'd never see any other club with this big proportion of underage students from the same school.
  • ..also Taiwanese-American and Taiwanese are totally totally different. TAS is in a bubble, for the vast majority TASers think differently and have a far different lifestyle than a Typical taiwanese student. I know a great number of Taiwanese-American students who been in TAS all their life and still do not identify, or relate at all as a "Taiwanese."

Typatigertot 17:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is no firm basis for comparing the average graduating class SAT I scores between NEHS and TAS. TAS's annual report does not give the graduating class SAT I average, only the average for the entire school (as far as I can see). I know many people take the SAT I before their senior year.. for instance I took the SAT I in 6th grade for admissions into the CTY program. Though I did well enough to get into the program, I'm sure I pulled down that year's SAT I overall school average. :P Now less I get accused of ignoring information, I've already written TAS requesting information about the graduating class SAT I average several days ago. --BenjaminTsai Talk 18:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the vast majority of locals have strict parents that impose curfews so that drugs, alcohol, underage sex are not a problem. TAS parents, on the other hand, yield to the pressure of a TAS communiy that indulges in drugs, alcohol, underage sex, clubbing. benjmain tsai, lol at a tiny # of middle schoolers pulling down the average. just admit it, TAS has lax academic standards. locals learn circuits in middle school and semiconductor physics in high school, have mandatory C or java courses in 10th grade, learn modular arithmitic, elementary number theory such as fermat's little theorem in middle school, college level linear algebra in high school. TAS is dragging down the standards of education in Taiwan.

NEHS bilingual department http://bilingual.nehs.hc.edu.tw/

TAS is so damaging to the taiwan community that it would be inappropriate to reference it as a "premier school" in an encyclopedia article. No one thinks TAS is good, except for members of the TAS community.

  • This has been rehashed before in the previous (and now archived) controversy discussion. --BenjaminTsai Talk 00:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well just cuz only TAS students are participating in the discussion, of course they are going to make them look good. Where is the particpation of the greater Taiwanese community? THey don't read wikipedia. Of course its going to be biased in TAS's favor.

  • So I visited the NEHS website...Well, so it's not even an English-based School. It's just that the school has a bilingual department that offers American curriculum? Well, then it's way off from even being an English-based school to begin with... There's no need to compare NEHS and TAS. Ahhh, reading what the anonymous said, am I a byproduct of TAS education, too? :( LOL TAS bubble...

Hello Janitor

===Janitors===
* [[Hello Janitor]], janitor who says "Hello! 你好嗎?" to people.

WHy does my hello janitor keep getting deleted?!??!?

  • Not notable. Not sourced. Not relevant to an encyclopedia. Wikibofh(talk) 00:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it is notable, ask TAS alumni, why are the good work of janitors being ignored?!??!?!

It is neither notable nor relevant. In fact, it's just some random sentence that borderlines on vandalism. --BenjaminTsai Talk 00:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no, it is one of the most notable experiences i have ever had as a TAS student.

  • I presume you are intentionally ignoring the fact that you don't have a citation or that it is non-encyclopedic. Wikibofh(talk) 01:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lots of material on the article doesnt have citation. I don't see how it is non-encyclopedic

Hi, I've quickly stepped in on this in order to bypass the general MEDCAB bureaucracy. I am your cabal mediator, I hope we can get this dispute sorted without having to resort to some lame edit war! :) The anonymous user's contribution is not vandalism, it is however unsourced and as such can be moved to the talk page by any editor pending citation. Presumably if this Janitor figure is notable enough for an article he would have been mentioned in some alumni publication?

The anonymous user is however correct. There are no citations for this article. The article should contain verifiable information and preferably be referenced with footnotes. I would encourage adding {{fact}} tags too sections which are unsourced and dubious.

From WP:CITE:

Disputed edits can be removed immediately and placed on the talk page for discussion, or where the edit is harmless but you dispute it and feel a citation is appropriate, you can place {{citation needed}} after the relevant passage. This should be used sparingly; Wikipedia has a lot of undercited articles, and inserting many instances of {{citation needed}} is unlikely to be beneficial. The template {{citecheck}} can be useful for flagging quotations taken out of context and other misuse of citations.

I am not however the last word, anonymous user, if you feel that your edit conforms with Wikipedia policies, then please respond below quoting from the appropriate sections. Thanks! :) - FrancisTyers 20:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for coming by and providing sanity check. I agree we should have better sources for every article. Just hope people don't gloss over the "...inserting many instances of {{citation needed}} is unlikely to be beneficial." portion of the policy.  :) Wikibofh(talk) 20:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! :) Its kind of pointless just to have an article full of those tags, but the best way to avoid that is to provide references. - FrancisTyers 20:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per this discussion, I have removed the Hello Janitor portions, which are preserved here. I have also created the sources/references section, and put in the ref with a cite for a section. Wikibofh(talk) 21:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the comments. Janitors are not mentioned in any alumni publications that I am aware of, and there is nothing particularly special about a janitor that says "Hello" to people. The school is big enough to require a large group of hard working janitors to keep up the maintenance and provide the necessary services. --BenjaminTsai Talk 00:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just because janitors are not mentioned in any alumni publications doesnt mean they are not important. "Hello Janitor" is an important part of the TAS experience and he should be in the article 63.201.35.145 21:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

removing "non-profit"

  • How is this relevant? I browsed through a bunch of school articles, including many international schools, none of them include "non-profit" what makes TAS any different? TAS is a school, stating it as non-profit is just absurd.

Typatigertot 02:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Non-profit

In answer to the newly created account from our anonymous friend, there are plenty of schools whose articles claim they are non-profits:

Wikibofh(talk) 02:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • I'm under the assumption u think i am the anonIP. I am NOT the anon IP, the only thing i share in common with this anon IP person is the idea that the TAS article does not honestly, objectively portray TAS. Unlike other major high schools in the US who claim to be top in academics, music, science, etc...whatever they claim to be, a school such as TAS does not have anyone other than alumni and current students to contribute. This is dangerous as the limited # of editors do not provide a round perspective. TAS people live in a bubble.....and can be quite ignorant as times when it comes to the self-perception of what one thinks TAS is. I just want to put an effort to keep the article balanced. I don't know if you know but TAS is in a crisis now:
  • Do you know why it was so hard to replace Mark Ulfers as superintendent? (i believe there was a whole year of an intern superintendent correct me if i'm wrong).....because all the ideal candidates (i believe there was 3~4) turned TAS down.. They didn't want to take over a school that had severe problems when it comes to pressure from the parents and board of directors regarding extreme expections.
  • ODMK69 mentioned about 20 faculty leaving after next year
  • WASC 2006 report...you will realize it is not taken out of context but it is the abstract/summary/intro whatever you want of teh report.
  • from a recent tas news feed:

Board Addresses WASC Self-Study Report

On Tuesday, March 28, nearly 200 parents and teachers attended a meeting of the TAS Board of Directors. The recent WASC Report was a priority item on the agenda. The board accepted the Administration’s Recommendations Addressing WASC Critical Areas for Follow-up. Those 11 areas are stated on page 37 of the WASC Self-Study Report, which is available to parents and faculty on the TAS Website. The recommendations of the Administrative Team will be shared with the community.

On March 24, parents and faculty were invited to submit questions and concerns that the board would address after the meeting. After the formal board meeting was adjourned, the board answered questions that were previously submitted by parents and faculty. Questions were taken from those in attendance. The questions and the answers to those questions will be made available to the entire TAS community, in some format, after Spring Break.

The dialogue between board, parents, faculty, and administration ended at nearly midnight. This meeting was an important beginning to open communication among all constituencies.

The April Communicator, which will address the WASC Self-Study Report, will be mailed to parents on Friday, March 31.

Patricia Wolfe Communications Officer

It is obvious that TAS is in a crisis, and this needs to be mentioned in the article. Typatigertot 04:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your claim that there was a whole year with an intern superintendent...you are wrong. As to your biased claim that TAS people live in a bubble, this has nothing to do with the article itself. And to all the claims that the Taiwanese public dislikes TAS, I'd have to say (from personal experience to downright common sense) that in general the Taiwanese public couldn't care less about TAS (they have no real opinion on it). TAS is not a cancer. It is not explicitly harming anyone. There have been times when it has been in the news, but the impression given by anonymous is that TAS is causing Taiwan harm. I am not an ardent supporter of TAS, nor someone who dislikes it, but honestly, with the possible exception of Columbine High School, how can anyone even suggest that a high school is having a prolonged negative affect on a community? It's just a school! -- Mattrixed Talk 07:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lol at your personal experience. What do you know about the opinion of the Taiwanese public. You've been in taiwan for what.. 3 years.. lol TAS IS a cancer. It is a very large American institution in Taipei and because of the large American (which includes taiwanese americans) teeanage community, it is spreading negative social influences from America over to young Taiwanese people. You Americans when you come to a country, you should act like a guest and follow the social customs of the host country, eg no fake IDs or underage clubbing, no graffitti. No use of marijuana or E. Lol whats going to be next? spinning rims, pimp cups and grillz? 63.201.35.145 08:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikibofh(talk) 13:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To anonymous - I never said that I was an American, and I've been in Taiwan for 5 years (attending TAS for 1.5 years). You said "What do you know about the opinion of the Taiwanese public" I say: What do you know? What makes your opinion worth putting in the article? Unless you can find a viable source that proves your opinion, you cannot put it in the article. That is what this discussion is about. I don't care if you like TAS or not, I'm just trying to keep a fair article that doesn't contain the opinion of one anonymous IP with a grudge. Please do not reply to me with your unfounded claims unless you can provide evidence for them (a link, perhaps?). -- Mattrixed Talk 17:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

dude, i am taiwanese and you are not 63.201.35.145 17:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to point out that the anonymous IP 63.201.35.145 has made a personal attack against me on my own personal website outside of Wikipedia. There is no excuse for you to do this. What is Wikipedia's policy (if any) on attacks like these? -- Mattrixed Talk 07:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, that is not acceptable. Send an admin the details and we can investigate and block if necessary. Wikibofh(talk) 13:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lol at not acceptable. lol at moderating other sites. wikipedia policy clearly forbids personal attacks only on wikipedia. what makes you think blocking me from wikipedia will protect mattrixed elsewhere? 63.201.35.145 21:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Never claimed I was going to moderate anywhere else, or even protect Mattrixed. It's not allowed, you've done it. See you this time tomorrow. Wikibofh(talk) 21:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I never asked anyone to help me with the situation on my site. I was just hoping that mentioning it would speed up the process of getting the anon blocked. -- Mattrixed Talk 03:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WASC report

Is the report available online somewhere? Wikibofh(talk) 21:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to this WASC is only providing the following information on the school to the general public. --BenjaminTsai Talk 00:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So the controvery section needs to be removed? There is no source for it...indeed I am wondering where that "quoted paragraph" actually came from... -- Mattrixed Talk 07:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, just because they don't offer it online does not mean it isn't a valid source. We just need for it to be verifiable. So, either a way to get a copy or someone needs to see about scanning it or portions of it in. Wikibofh(talk) 13:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to get a copy through the TAS Alumni Office, though as mentioned elsewhere the school's closed for Spring Break until April 10th. --BenjaminTsai Talk 14:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While the report has been publicly released online to the TAS community, I don't believe the report is intended for the general public as it is linked from a page which is password protected. However, I can definitely verify that the information there is quoted accurately. Please note though that the text is from a section labelled "Opening Remarks by WASC Visiting Team Chair." I am not certain whether or not this is officially part of the report.

Accuracy aside, I'd like to question whether or not the quote alone provides the full picture (agreeing with the commenter who noted "Selectively quoting material out of context is not suitable for a reference work"). The report is 42 pages long and the quoted paragraph is not intended to be a summary of the report. As I noted above, the paragraph is from the Opening Remarks. For the sake of comparison, I am including some positive quotes from the Opening and Closing Remarks.

  • The paragraph immediately following the quote currently in the "Controversy" section states "From our conversations with various groups of school stakeholders and from our observations with classrooms, the Visiting Team does not believe that this conflict has, as yet, negatively impacted the education of TAS students."
  • Addressing the "hard emotional labor" it will take to resolve issues within the school in the Closing Remarks, the Visiting Team Chair says "the Visiting Teams believes that there exists in all constituent stakeholder such passionate commitment to students and their learning and such strong loyalty to the school that this can be accomplished."
  • Perhaps most notably, the Opening Remarks begin with "Taipei American School has a well-earned reputation for being a very good school. It has a reputation in the South East Asian region and worldwide for highly motivated students, a challenging curriculum, a very fine teaching faculty and some very pleasing external examination results."

I am deciding not to add any further quotes to the article for now until after we discuss it.

If you read the opening remarks, the above quotes are obviously just filler to make TAS feel better. The main point of the opening remarks is clearly the quoted section. 63.201.35.145 21:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think that your stance that the "above quotes are obviously filler to make TAS feel better" is strongly opinionated and not necessarily accurate. As a matter of fact, I have not only read the opening remarks, I heard them delivered twice by the WASC Visiting Team Chair. Filler or not, I doubt the remarks would have been made if they were not accurate in the opinion of the Chair or the Visiting committee. (Waphle 21:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Furthermore, I think we may be running into a NPOV issue here. I don't know whether or not information should be posted when only one point of view can be provided. Those who point to the rest of the article as being unbalanced or an "advertisement" should note that most of the other information on the website is purely factual, rather than an opinion such as the one posted here. In this case - not only are we presenting the most negative excerpt from the report, we are not providing any sort of response from the school or other constituents.

It appears that many who are editing this page persist in attempting to portray TAS in a negative light.

  • For example one participant on this Talk Page says "For example did you know that over twenty faculty members, both teachers and other staff, are leaving TAS after this school year because they feel that they can no longer function in the current environment?" This statement is probably inaccurate because while there may very well be teachers who are leaving because they are uncomfortable with the current environment, assuming all staff leaving are leaving as a result of the environment is making a huge leap, especially given the fact that over a dozen teachers have left TAS every year in the past (not an unusual number for an international school). Furthermore, using a phrase such as "can no longer function" is perhaps a bit too extreme.
While I cannot speak for typatigertot, it is of my opinion that TAS faculty have always been dysfunctional retards; this phrase is not too extreme 63.201.35.145 21:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • how does thie violate NPA? i'm not insulting other wikipedia users.
        • You have been violating NPA on and off for the past 3 days. This is a quote of yours, on this very page from a few days ago: matrix, you haven't heard of NEHS because you are a dumbass, not because NEHS is not greater than TAS. You seem to be taking this out on me personally. Why the anger? It's just a difference of opinion. My opinion is that this article needs sources to prove it's accuracy for the controversy section. Until that proof is given, it should not be part of the article. -- Mattrixed Talk 06:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, statements such as "Do you know why it was so hard to replace Mark Ulfers as superintendent? (i believe there was a whole year of an intern superintendent correct me if i'm wrong).....because all the ideal candidates (i believe there was 3~4) turned TAS down.. They didn't want to take over a school that had severe problems when it comes to pressure from the parents and board of directors regarding extreme expections." are inaccurate as well. There was no interim superintendent between Mark E. Ulfers and the current superintendent. Furthermore, most superintendent candidates came to TAS wanting the job knowing what kind of school they would be entering. I am under the impression that some candidates were turned down by TAS (not necessarily the other way around) and that at least one candidate was offered another job and accepted before the candidate selection process was complete. If you have more direct factual sources that clearly indicate otherwise please let me know.

I am not clear as to why there are those who continue to push for negative viewpoints to be voiced in the article without contrasting positive viewpoints. The goal of any encyclopedia article cannot be to push a single viewpoint, or provide "contrary ideas" to those found on official websites (as ODMK69) suggests. Please take care to ensure that a NPOV is maintained. Those of you who say that the page is like an ad or is unbalanced - could you please provide examples from the page which you would consider as non-neutral? I would be happy to continue discussion.

I am satisfied with the current state of the article. But previous versions of articles such as "TAS is widely considered as the premier English language ..." are clearly non-neutral and incorrect. 63.201.35.145 21:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shockingly, I agree with .145 on this. The only source is the taipei times article, which I don't find particularly compelling. Wikibofh(talk) 22:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm onboard here as well. The removal of that claim was the right move. Hopefully the article can continue to remain neutral. Cheers (Waphle 22:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

For full disclosure, I would like to share that I am a senior attending TAS who has been actively involved in the school through many channels, including participating in the WASC accreditation process and the interview process for the new superintendent. I am aware of NEHS (as are many TAS students). I also have many resources at my disposal if there are any factual disputes which need to be settled. I recognize that I have, in general (but not always), a positive opinion of TAS, but fully intend not to put a positive spin on the TAS page.

(Waphle 21:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I would have to agree with Waphle. He probably knows more about this situation than any other current or past student of TAS, and possibly even knows more than some of the faculty. -- Mattrixed Talk 03:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I look forward Waphle in sheding all the details surrounding the crisis at TAS. I hope Waphle will merely state facts and not let his role as a student government president and his personal relationships with TAS administration get in the way. For ur cooperation, keep including notables gosh! Forever Arewe Grateful! Typatigertot 05:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly don't claim do be able to shed light on all the details surrounding any situation at TAS, whether or not there is a crisis. I have made it clear that I will state only facts and will clearly point out if and when I am sharing my personal opinion. As I noted before, I recognize I may have a positive opinion of TAS in many regards, but I do not intend to put a positive spin on the article. It is for this reason I have refrained from editing this page as we continue the discusssion here. (Waphle 21:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

wikibofh, you can reach waphle at (number removed) to interview him 63.201.35.145 22:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please don't post someone elses personal information. Either use the email button for a user if you want it sent out of band or let them do it. Wikibofh(talk) 23:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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