Talk:Rob Bell

Please note that this page will, eventually, have to become a disambiguation page, since there is also a pro baseball pitcher with the same name, and possibly others as well. ^BlankVerse 21:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Added the image at the top asking for edits to be discussed here. I just want to keep everyone on the same page. Thanks. --Derek Spalla 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

151.199.175.100 - if you're going to disagree with my warning box at the top of the article, you should at least log in and it discuss it here. This is exactly the reason why I posted the warning in the first place.--Derek Spalla 10:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Controversies

Added another perspective on the Apprising Ministries links.

--Casaubonian 14:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I have made the criticisms more neutral - used words such as 'claimed. I also removed the Brian Maclaren paragraph - this seemed like a irrelavance as it was more about Brian Maclaren than Rob Bell, the only reference being that he preaced at Rob Bell's church.

I have made the language more neutral, added some citations (including one for and one against the 'Eastern' comment) and shortened the Apprising Ministries link to just a sentence. The existing paragraph wasn't neutral in language, attacking the subject rather than informing. Casaubonian 13:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

This section needs some citations for those items listed, otherwise it's just fantasy instead of true facts.--Derek Spalla 00:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Bibliography

Added Sex God to the list since it was mentioned in the Other Projects section and can be found on Zondervan's website about Rob Bell--Derek Spalla 12:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I removed the "more resources" link that went to Christian book distributors. Wikipedia policy in the Links normally to be avoided section: #8 Bookstore sites; instead, use the "ISBN" linking format, which gives readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources. See the Wikipedia External Links policy if in doubt. --Derek Spalla 18:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Added the Christianity Today article by Andy Crouch. It seems to fit in line with the article from BeliefNet.--Derek Spalla 12:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotations

I am confused - why are there supposed quotes from Rob Bell from a book not written by him that is a satirical take on the religious right? Can these quotes be authenticated at all or are they made up? When and where did Rob say those things? --Virgil Vaduva 02:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

They are legitimate quotes from an interview the author conducted with Rob Bell

Inaccurate quotes

To the anon editor - if you would please authenticate the quotes you keep posting, perhaps that would help with the constructive creation of this article. Referencing obscure websites does not qualify as quotation material in my book, so could you perhaps provide more evidence of where and when these quotes appeared?

--Virgil Vaduva 20:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph about "Velvet Elvis"

I would like to know why my suggested revision has been changed. I have here added the extra phrase "... to live with great passion and conviction" to the quote from the book. (Can anyone verify that this is an actual quote, by the way?) The reason I suggested this edit is because the phrase "Amazing story" is not neutral.

Thank you. Mathteacher1729 19:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The following paragraph could probably be cleaned up grammatically, as well as made more neutral. (Speficially, remove the "...tells an amazing story" part and replace with "tells the story of.."

Rob Bell, in his recent book, "Velvet Elvis", tells an amazing story of how he envisions the walk a Christian takes in life. "The challenge he says, is to live with great passion and conviction, remaining open and flexible, aware that this life is not the last painting.

Possible re-write suggestion:

In Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith, Rob Bell explains his vision of the Christian Life. "The challenge," he says "is to live with great passion and conviction, remaining open and flexible, aware that this life is not the last painting."

Mathteacher1729 21:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms links

I don't agree with everything on the Apprising Ministries website but at least it provides another perspective on what many evangelical Christians consider the heterodox postmodern beliefs of Rob Bell. Many quotes from this site were removed in the past which is reasonable as they carry a biased opinion. I think having a link to the site without including material directly in the bio is reasonable .

70.188.25.24 01:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

• • It is not reasonable - this article is an article about Rob Bell, not a repository of links and sites devoted to slandering him and those associated with him. What quotes have been removed as biased opinions? --Virgil Vaduva 04:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

well, looking at the history, you have systematically expunged anything remotely critical of him. I think one link to a different viewpoint than yours and appropriately labeled in the "Criticism" section is ok. 70.188.25.24 06:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• Actually I have repeatedly asked that you register for a Wikipedia account and use the discussion page to further the development of the article, you have refused to do so. Only after I repeatedly undid your edits you have chosen the course of discussion. I have not systematically expunged ANYTHING critical of Rob Bell. I have removed links which are obviously SPAM or efforts to slander or advertise slanderous websites regarding the article. Before you continue to edit, I highly recommend that (1) you create an account and participate as a regular user - anonymous edits are hardly credible here and (2) read What Wikipedia is not which will help you better understand that Wikipedia is not the place for you to promote your ideology or a battleground for you to fight ideological wars. This purpose of an article is to disseminate information on a specific topic or person. Your edits are hardly improving the article; I will continue to "expunge" your edits as long as you do not take a constructive approach to the development of the article. --Virgil Vaduva 00:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I reread the article and agree with you that you haven't expunged all critical material. I disagree that the apprising ministry website is slanderous but I'll leave the link off. 70.188.25.24 02:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Much better edit - thanks for cooperating. I think the critical quotes are very appropriate and well placed, however Bell never publicly claim to be associated with the emergent church movement so I removed part of the introductory paragraph. If you can find a quote that places him in that movement we can definitely reach an agreement to change the article accordingly. I am glad to see we are coming to some a place where we can reach some constructive agreement. --Virgil Vaduva 04:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I included references for every thing that I added. There is a link to Christianity Today that discusses Rob Bell and the Mars Hills Church which he leads as part of the emerging church movement. 70.188.25.24 12:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• I am sorry but I cannot agree with that paragraph as it was worded. There are two major problems with it:

1. Bell has NEVER identified himself as being part of the emergent movement (there was no citation provided for this as I've asked and the Christianity Today link doesn't mention anything about this) 2. A link to a blog hardly is a reliable source for Bell encouraging church members to practice eastern religions.

I was under the impression that we can come to an agreement of non-biased edits. This is not a place to criticize Rob Bell or to unveil controversial stuff about him. Please create a regular Wikipedia account so you can make those changes as a user. --Virgil Vaduva 15:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is controversial. Your removing the edit constitutes a "biased" edit. We all have our biases and that's why we can have multiple points of view included in the article. I haven't deleted anything that you have written. It is useful to provide all points of view. I don't want to create an account. If I did, I would have done it already. 70.188.25.24 17:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Associating someone with "emergent" when the person never claimed such an association is quite controversial, and in your eyes apparently is an attempt to discredit Bell. Also, as I already specified, links to someone's blog is hardly considered "credible information" so I cannot understand how or why you continue with those edits and links. --Virgil Vaduva 20:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you missed the quote from the 'Emergent Mystique' article in November 2004 Christianity today from Rob Bell where he talks about his presentation of Christianity, “This is not just the same old message with new methods. We’re rediscovering Christianity as an Eastern religion, as a way of life.” Sounds to me like he is encouraging people to practice Christianity as an eastern religion. His church is also clearly identified as part of the emergent movement in that article. Unless you can produce a quote from Rob Bell that clearly states his church is not part of the emergent church than I would say that you have removed the edit without justification. 70.188.25.24 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• And you are using an out of context quote to portray him as a Buddha-seeking new-ager when he is speaking in the context of the Judaic (eastern) roots of Christianity, as opposed to the Greek (western) root of our faith. Thanks for using that quote to further prove your bias. So far I have agreed to the REASONABLE changes you suggested which are very well thought out and presented, but the paragraph you are insisting on inserting in the article will not stand. --Virgil Vaduva 01:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I liked your edit, thanks for not entirely removing what I had contributed. I got rid of the blog links and replaced it with link to a published article. I think one sentence acknowledging that many Christians finds his views unbiblical in an article that is generally favorable is not biased but provides some balance. I must admit that I have no idea what you are talking about saying that Judaism is an eastern Religion??[1] 70.188.25.24 02:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• As long as Yoga and "eastern religions" are mentioned, I cannot agree to the edit..I am sorry. Before either one of us agrees to further changes, it would be a good idea to discuss them here, otherwise we end in another stalling situation. --Virgil Vaduva 02:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If you continue to delete the edits and in support of your biased view without allowing other viewpoints to be represented, than I suppose there is no value in continuing the discussion. 70.188.25.24 03:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• Actually I made quite an effort and compromise quite a bit regarding your original submissions but you continue to insert inflammatory lingo like "eastern" and "yoga" into the article. I asked that we discuss further changes here but you are not willing to do so, so I am at a loss as to what we can do about it. --Virgil Vaduva 04:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll try this one more time in an effort to end a protracted edit war. You have not compromised at all. I took out the link that you objected to. I agreed with your edit that says that Bell denies being part of the emergent church (although in the interview with him on your website it seems he just doesn't like any 'labels' at all and the interviewer seemed to think he was emergent). I added a direct quote from Bell regarding his promoting the eastern religious practices as helpful a model for Christian practice. He has used Yoga in his church and many Christian leaders have objected to his teachings in Velvet Elvis. I asked Yuser31415 about this and he said he was OK with the edits as long as they were cited appropriately. I don't agree with your assessment that the words "yoga" and "eastern" are inflammatory. 70.188.25.24 12:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you need to provide references, and you do not have any references for "eastern" and "yoga" - they are just your opinions...I have no idea if it's made up or what. The link to Christianity Today says nothing about him describing Christianity as an eastern religion. Please eliminate the two comments. Regarding Yuser31415 - he should know that this kind of criticism is borderline acceptable for this kind of an article, especially for a living person. If it was up to me, there would be no "Criticism" section in any article. Wikipedia is not an Encyclopedia where someone like you with a grudge against Bell gets to write extended sections about what you dislike about the guy. This conversation is absolutely ridiculous to even have!--Virgil Vaduva 16:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticism Links

Why are there more links under criticism than valid links and references? This is outright spam and goes against Wikipedia rules. I will remove them unless the author has justification, AND he/she can say why all those links cannot be consolidated under one link. --Virgil Vaduva 00:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Questions for Gump

Gump, would you please explain what in the questionable paragraph which you continue posting is relevant to Rob Bell as a living person, or to his biography? The passage currently reads:

An online ministry testing Bell's doctrine against God's Word (understood as being the Bible) is Pastor Ken Silva's Apprising Ministries. Filled with a plethora of free information, Apprising Ministries reveals Bell's individual rendition of Kingdom Now theology as yet another culture pleasing product of postmodernism. Silva's ministry concludes that Bell is apostate in his teaching because his ministry is aimed at reinventing the message of the gospel in a manner which "contradicts those believers who have asked Jesus to forgive their sins and be their Lord and Savior." Bell, per Silva's site, promotes "Christ-following" as an alternative to orthodox Christianity, having nothing to do with individual acknowledgment and repentance of sin with a coinciding acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is a blatant advertisement (spam) for a third party which has nothing to do with this biographical article. You have also performed 7 reverts in the past 24 hours, which is against Wikipedia rules. On top of that, you reverted the warning template I posted on your User_talk:Gump page, which is also a very lame attempt to hide what you did wrong, after you issued a veiled threat against me, which is also very much against Wikipedia rules. --Virgil Vaduva 15:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note to make this conversation more relevant; in the past 24 hours User:Gump broke the 3 reverts rule many times over; he has been suspended in the past for vandalism; he now logged out and is making reverts as anon from a Lexis Nexis IP address; he also had his userpage deleted in an apparent effort to "shred evidence" regarding his past activities. It's a shame that I have to beg for collaboration from users here who only seem to be interested in defaming and vandalizing articles the rest of us work hard on. I hope an admin will get involved quickly and resolve this matter; personally I think it's already out of hand. --Virgil Vaduva 15:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)