Talk:Law and User talk:DoubleBlue: Difference between pages

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<div style="border: 1px solid darkblue; background-color: lightblue; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 85%; text-align: center">[[Image:Robert Harris - A Meeting of the School Trustees.jpg|left|200px]]
{{FAR}}
<big><br /><br />I generally check in every day or two.
{{BT list coverage|law}}
{{ArticleHistory
|action1=FAC
|action1date=12:48, 16 February 2007
|action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Law
|action1result=promoted
|action1oldid=108568443
|currentstatus=FA
|maindate=March 5, 2007
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Law|class=FA|importance=Top |nested=yes}}
{{WikiProject Sociology|class=FA|importance=High |nested=yes}}
{{philosophy|importance=high|class=FA|ethics=yes |nested=yes}}
{{WP1.0|v0.5=pass|class=FA|category=Socsci|core=yes|VA=yes|WPCD=yes |nested=yes}}
{{Law enforcement|class=FA |nested=yes}}
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{{archive box|
* [[Talk:Law/Old]] (2002-03)
* [[Talk:Law/Old 2]] (2002-03)
* [[Talk:Law/Archive 3]] (2004-05, some 06)
* [[Talk:Law/Archive 4]] (2006)
}}


Please leave a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoubleBlue&action=edit&section=new message], or, for more urgent issues, [[Special:Emailuser/DoubleBlue|e-mail me]].<br /><br /><br /><br /></big></div>
== Mens Rea & Opening Statement ==
<br clear="all" />
The entry states, in the transition between the description of tort law and criminal law, that the offense must be criminalized AND intentional. This is blatantly false. Only the Mens Rea of Purpose requires intent, Knowledge, Recklessness, and Negligence, do not require intent. There are plenty of offenses actionable in civil proceedings under tort law which are also crminalized offenses and thus actionable under criminal law which do not require a culpability of intent. I have removed this statement, since by definition, all offenses which are criminalized (i.e. exist within the penal code) are covered under criminal law. The required mens rea is a distinct issue and irrelevant to the area of law in which the action will be prosecuted/tried/etc.


[[Image:Replacement filing cabinet.svg|left|60px]]
This does remove an initial link to intentionality, which is important for an encyclopedic law article. However, including a link in opposition to the actual functioning of law, and in the process providing the reader the assumption that all criminal acts must be intentional, is in my view completely inappropriate. -Malaclypse
<small>
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoubleBlue&oldid=20708612 Archive 1] 25 March — 10 August 2005<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoubleBlue&oldid=97999768 Archive 2] 10 August 2005 — 31 December 2006<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoubleBlue&oldid=181278134 Archive 3] 2007<br />
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DoubleBlue&oldid=222070936 Archive 4] January — June 2008
</small>
----


==Vote at Fête nationale du Québec (Saint Jean Baptiste Day)==
== Common Law ==


Hi, I've set up a vote to try and resolve this [[Talk:Fête_nationale_du_Québec_(Saint_Jean_Baptiste_Day)#Survey|here]]. As you've commented on the issue already, I wanted to ensure you take the opportunity to vote. [[User:Gabrielthursday|Gabrielthursday]] ([[User talk:Gabrielthursday|talk]]) 01:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
The (linked) article on Common Law traces it's origin to Henry II, not John. This was always my understanding too, although some vaguely defined pre-Norman precedent was cited even then (and right through until the English Civil War). Anyone else with any thoughts? [[User:Epeeist smudge|Epeeist smudge]] 00:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
:* I've asked the dissenting editors to acknowledge the Wikipedia naming conventions that emphasize that article titles should be the ones that are most recognizable to English-speakers[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AF%C3%AAte_nationale_du_Qu%C3%A9bec_(Saint_Jean_Baptiste_Day)&diff=223775539&oldid=223747628]. If they do not, I think we should ask for a [[Wikipedia:Request_for_comment|Request for comment]] as the next step in solving this dispute, as such a refusal could constitute [[bad faith]]. It will require at least two editors to start the process. Thank you. --[[User:Soulscanner|soulscanner]] ([[User talk:Soulscanner|talk]]) 19:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


==Re: Bishop==
:Yes, forge ahead and edit the Main page for Common law! It sounds like you know a bit about it, and so use all the sources you have to write what's correct. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 03:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd talk to [[User:Chrisjnelson]] about that. He (and other [[WP:NFL]]ers) are quarterbacking (no pun intended!) page moves from (football player) to (American football) or (gridiron football) if it's also a CFL player. [[User:Pats1|<b><font color="#0d254c">Pats</font><font color="#8f8f8f">1</font></b>]] [[User_talk:Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><sup><small>'''T'''</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><small>'''C'''</small></font>]] 01:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, I wasn't too descriptive in my AWB title. Since a [[User:Crash Underride]] added the parent cat American Football League players to a bunch of AFL player pages, I informed him that such a practice (see [[:Category:National Football League players]]) is not usually done, and instead just the sub-cats (essentially) of Team X players is used. He added it to a bunch of articles, so I AWB'd it. [[User:Pats1|<b><font color="#0d254c">Pats</font><font color="#8f8f8f">1</font></b>]] [[User_talk:Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><sup><small>'''T'''</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><small>'''C'''</small></font>]] 01:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
::It's UNDERRIDE, and it's not USUALLY done, is there a rule saying that it's illegal? No, ok. Besides, why is there a category [[:Category:National Football League players]] to begin with then??? '''[[Special:Contributions/Crash Underride|<font color="#C0C0C0">Cra</font>]][[User:Crash Underride|<font color="silver">sh U</font>]][[User talk:Crash Underride|<font color="navy">nderride</font>]]''' 05:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Chill. [[User:Pats1|<b><font color="#0d254c">Pats</font><font color="#8f8f8f">1</font></b>]] [[User_talk:Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><sup><small>'''T'''</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Pats1|<font color="#c0001d"><small>'''C'''</small></font>]] 13:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


== Military history of Canada ==
::Contrary to popular belief common law was concieved within a decade of the conquest of 1066. The king (William I) dispatched ''itinerant justices'' to all areas to learn the laws of the land, generally comprising of Dane Law, Mercian Law and Wessex law. These were discussed, dicided upon which are the best, writen and learned by the justices in Westminster. The law would be ''common'' to all of England. If a judge had already writen of a situation or law the dicision would stand (''stare decisis''). Although this was srictly speaking the law (according to the soveriegn) Elliot & Quinn (''English Legal System'', ed6, (2006, London:Longman) at 9) believe it would not have been applicable to citizens or to take action under around 1250. [[User:Bamkin|Bamkin]] 16:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Add it to the [[Common law]] article!!! '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


[[Military history of Canada]] has been nominated for a [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_review|featured article review]]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to [[Wikipedia:What is a featured article?|featured quality]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_review|here]]. Reviewers' concerns are [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/{{#if:|{{{2}}}|Military history of Canada}}|here]].
== New Edit ==
Hi, I've just changed part of the intro: "But if one person [[harm principle|harms]] another intentionally, then [[criminal law]] ensures that the perpetrator is removed from society." to "harms another in violation of criminal statute." I've done this because intentional harms, as it was rendered before can still be torts, and are not necessarily criminal violations. I recognize that the change may appear somewhat redundant, but it was technically incorrect before. --[[User:ThaneofFife|ThaneofFife]] 01:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)ThaneofFife


=="My" recent edits==
:It's still technically incorrect:
:*someone who commits a crime is not necessarily convicted of it;
:*someone who is convicted of a crime isn't necessarily removed from society - discharges, fines and community sentences are all very common.
:[[User:Crebbin|Crebbin]] 18:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC).


Thanks for your note. I understand that you cannot verify this, but I did not make the edits in question. I suspect that my password had been guessed: I've changed it as a precaution. I'll try to be more vigilant about this. Thanks again for letting me know that this was going on-I truthfully had no idea. --[[User:Lkjhgfdsa|Lkjhgfdsa]] ([[User talk:Lkjhgfdsa|talk]]) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
== The force of law ==


== Question ==
As someone with a science background, I am interested in [[Isaac Newton]]'s formulation of the basic principles underlying Nature, the [[laws of nature]]. Thus I was struck by the apparent debt of the natural philosophers to the Law, as something even mass particles obey, including the mechanisms to which we are subject, such as [[force]]. Force was introduced by Newton, but he apparently selected the term from its use by the ancient Romans ([[Lex]]). Might there be a place for this in some article which bridges both Law and Science? This is a very enjoyable article, by the way. Good work. --[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] 04:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


Hi DoubleBlue, I noticed that you revert vandalism occasionally. Would you like me to grant your account [[Wikipedia:Rollback feature|rollback rights]] for you to use alongside Twinkle? Tell me what you think. Thanks. [[User:Acalamari|Acalamari]] 21:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
:If you click the link to the disambiguation page, I think there's something there about the word 'law' as applied to 'laws of nature', and perhaps there's already something about it? Your right though, it is an interesting topic. My understanding is that before about 1750 (David Hume being one of the first) most thinkers simply didn't make the distinction between sciences and social sciences. Have a look at the [[jurisprudence]] article, where there's a bit more about [[natural law]] and its tradition. Going right back to the Greeks, every aspect of human thought was meant to be part of an all encompassing grand narrative. [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 07:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:Rollback granted. I'm glad you understand that it's for reverting vandalism, and that abuse can lead to its removal. :) Good luck. [[User:Acalamari|Acalamari]] 23:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


== Thanks for correction at Delorimier ==
I must say I agree with Anceta Wis here. Law is in this article referring to the "laws of men" in "societies"; (really) abstract properties of political manifestations of "guiding principles" for human behaviour all loosely based on religious ethics. "Laws of nature" are (like the laws of men) constantly being reinterpreted to fit the sciences. "Laws", as imposed on other human creations, like computer science are bent and broken every day within the confines of systems that are loosely defined by "laws" that are a mere fiction of our perception. The "law of motion" (as defined by Newton) only applies in given circumstances (collapses under others) and "law" is often a really ambiguous statement when applied to the cooperation between humans (justice and egality (as pointed out by the article)).
The article is good, but it refers to a certain interpretation of the word "law" that is much to narrow for it to have any real quality. Why can't we split it up to make law a more general "etymological" and semantic definition of the concept and move the current "law" to "human law" (or something like that). [[User:skeldoy]] <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.157.241.8|193.157.241.8]] ([[User talk:193.157.241.8|talk]]) 17:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


I don't know if you caught my later comment as quickly as you caught the original edit. I did some more checking up myself and found out that "Delorimier" was in fact correct. I went back to change them all again (I think you noticed that, before me, some were one spelling and some the other), and found you had got there already. Quick work! [[User:Berkowit28|Berkowit28]] ([[User talk:Berkowit28|talk]]) 21:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:You need to do something on the disambiguation page, not here. The 'certain interpretation of the word 'law'' is the RIGHT one, because its what everyone knows, and it's what most people want when they type in 'law'! '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 13:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


== [[Template:Intrawest resorts]] ==
== Contract ==


Thanks for letting me know of the discussion. I've responded there. [[user:j|<span style="background: #222; color: #fff;">&nbsp;&nbsp;user:j&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[user talk:j|<span style="background: #fff; color: #222;">&nbsp;&nbsp;(aka justen)&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]] 01:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't know whether this had been discussed already, but I'm just considering the sentence "Some common law systems, like Australia, are moving away from consideration as a requirement for a contract". As an Australian law student, I've read and been exposed to nothing which suggests that Australia is moving away from consideration as an element in contract.


Am I just behind the legal times, or would this be appropriate to change? [[User:Smaug007|Smaug007]] 02:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


== Re. entry of external link in entry for "Brentwood College School" ==
:The case I quoted for this is Austotel v Franklins and there's another called ''Waltons Stores (Interstate) Ltd v. Maher'' (1988) 164 CLR 387 from the High Court about a dept store starting to be built without the dept. store co. and the developer having yet signed the contract; estoppel was used as grounds for the creation of a contractual obligation rather than an amendment of the way it worked, because the the High Court said that there was a reliance on expectations raised through the course of negotiations, which resulted in Walton's detriment (namely, they started demolishing an old building). "When these elements are present," wrote Brennan J, "equitable estoppel almost wears the appearance of contract, for the action or inaction of the promisee looks like consideration for the promise on which, as the promisor knew or intended, the promisee would act or abstain from acting..." This is a big change from the classic adage "estoppel is a shield but not a sword" which is what we in England hold on to. It's closer to, as in the article, the concept of culpa in contrahendo, which you find e.g. in the [[BGB|German Civil Code]]. I'm sure you're not behind in the times, but I hope that clears things up. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 07:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


== The FA passed me by ==


I tried adding a link to the site ourkids.net and you removed it. Ourkids.net offers pictures and other information unavailable elsewhere. Why is there no conflict of interest deletion for the link from the competing commercial site, topprivateschools.ca?
I was just mentioned[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests&diff=prev&oldid=110158291] as something of a primary contributor to bringing the article to FA-status and I thought it was appropriate to point out that I don't agree at all with being cited as a supporter.


It is obvious that users find our site useful as they arrive from all different sources, including wikipedia, and we offer them the opportunity to make contact with a representative from the school.
I had no idea that the article had been promoted; it appeared to me to have enough problems to get voted down (even if it seemed to be heading for great things at a later nomination). The only substantial criticism that I had was about how contrived the lead was. In my view it's still contrived, except that it now reads like the introduction to an academic paper and starts by confronting the reader with no fewer than 5 separate quotes that all could be summarized in much simpler words and without anyone complaining about not citing academics about it. And why cite the etymology at all? It's not going to be disputed and it's ridiculously easy to verify, even for someone who isn't an etymology nerd. I have nothing but praise for the editors that did a wonderful job of filling it with content, but I would never support an FA with this kind of lead and such a pedantic method of referencing.


All due respect -
[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 22:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
:Actually, I came here to make a similar comment. I was trying to write the main page blurb (so that this article can be the FA of the day) and I can't, because the first sentence (Law ... threat of a sanction) is just too convoluted. I'd like to request that someone distill this down into one or two concise sentences. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] 05:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


Jim H <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.229.148.229|99.229.148.229]] ([[User talk:99.229.148.229|talk]]) 19:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::When I saw the nomination over a month ago, I tried summarizing the first paragraph to the best of my knowledge of law (which is not terribly impressive). It was merely a rough draft, but I still feel that the gist of it would be better than the current intro:
:Replied at [[User talk:99.229.148.229#External links]]. [[User:DoubleBlue|<font color="darkblue">'''Double'''</font><font color="blue">Blue</font>]] ([[User talk:DoubleBlue|Talk)]] 04:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::''A '''law''' is a set of rules intended to govern [[society]], usually through the threat of some form of punishment or reprimand upon the transgression of such a rule. Laws can regulate a huge variety of aspects of human society. There are laws that regulate [[employment law|employment]], [[contracts]], [[property law|ownership]], [[company law|businesses]], etc. Laws may define how businesses are run through [[tort]]s. Laws create and regulate [[education]], [[medical care]] and [[public utilities]]. Laws can [[criminal law|remove people]] from society for their crimes, can [[public international law|create bridges]] between different societies and decide how [[election]]s for who represents society should be conducted. There are even laws about how to [[public law|make new laws]].''
::[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 09:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


==Help with infoboxes==
::::First of all, Peter, this diff does not say that you were a supporter, but that you helped with bringing the article to FA status with your contributions. These are two different things. Second, I agree that the first sentence is too long with many definitions, but, when I tried to trim it, including just one definition, there were reactions by Wikidea. Third, I agree that the lead must be rewritten, but I am not sure if Peter's version is the best alternative. Its flaw IMO is that it looks more as a bullet intro without bullets than as a proper summary as it should (I also count 8-9 times the word "law" in 5-6 lines). And in Peter's definition I would prefer a "system of rules" instead of a "set of rules".--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 11:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::By all means, please improve it, it wasn't meant as a ''fait accompli''. The point I was trying make was merely to write the intro as a summary of general fact statements rather than a long string of quotes.
:::::[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::I may try during the Weekend to work on the lead, but I would feel more comfortable if a native English speaker could undertake this task.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 19:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


I couldn't find anything about this so I thought I'd ask a highly decorated user.<br />
*I would like to note first of all that this is the ''only'' page on Wikipedia on a whole social science or humanities discipline that is featured. I think you would be hard pushed to get historians, philosophers, economists, etc to agree on some simple definition to be inserted at the start of their encyclopedia article, as hard as that might sound. So we '''must''' pay attention to the views in academic literature, not brush them aside. People are meant to read this page to learn something, not change it according to what they feel sounds good!
I want to use an infobox template, but I want to add a field that is not in the template.<br />
Let's say I'm using the [[Template:Infobox_Organization|organization infobox template]] and I want to add a field called former name (the name the organization was given at first), which the organization template doesn't provide<br />
If I was editing my own infobox, I would have done it like this | label1 = former name | data1 = Yoyoyo.<br />
How can I do that, if I can do that ? U can edit my [[User:Jadbaz/sandbox sandbox]] if it makes it easier, I prepared it for this purpose, Thanks.<br />
--[[User:Jadbaz|JB]] ([[User talk:Jadbaz|talk]]) 20:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


:How did u do that ? Did u edit the template infobox organization ?<br />
Second, I refer everyone in the discussion, again, to the topic of jurisprudence, which asks "what is law" as its core question. This is precisely the debate over definitions. It isn't simple. Raul567/Peter, what you put in is the Austin definition (i.e. law is commands backed with the threat of a sanction) which unfortunately is quite wrong for any philosophers in the twentieth century. Also, I personally don't think punishment or reprimand is at all the right way to talk about things - in criminal law a lot of people don't agree with the idea that people should be punished, and not for instance rehabilitated. A lot of people will want to throw in a dictionary definition about law being some kind of "system of rules" or law being something that "governs people" - note first this is Hart all over (without the careful explanation that Hart avoids) and note second that it's [[Tautology (logic)|tautologous]] (e.g. what's a system of rules/governing people? Law!). Note third that the most prominent legal philosopher of late, Ronald Dworkin, completely disagrees with this.
--[[User:Jadbaz|JB]] ([[User talk:Jadbaz|talk]]) 20:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


::Yes, I did [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_Organization&diff=232354225&oldid=229745568 here]. [[User:DoubleBlue|<font color="darkblue">'''Double'''</font><font color="blue">Blue</font>]] ([[User talk:DoubleBlue|Talk)]] 20:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
<blockquote>Law is an interpretive concept. Judges should decide what the law is by interpreting the practice of other judges deciding what the law is."- Dworkin, Law's Empire, 410</blockquote>


== DCB updates ==
Dworkin's view is that you can't put law down into some simple system of positive rules, because it's also about what people believe the most just and appropriate actions are.


Thanks for noticing. Regrettably, much plodding remains. --[[User:Big iron|Big_iron]] ([[User talk:Big iron|talk]]) 12:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's an olive branch, though:


==Liberal Party candidates, 40th Canadian federal election==
<blockquote>"Law", in common parlance, means a rule which (unlike a rule of ethics) is actually capable of enforcement through institutions created for that purpose. But "law" in the phrase "international law" does not automatically have this quality: it has no police force or bailiffs, and its courts lack the capacity to punish for contempt or for disobedience to their orders." - Robertson, Crimes against Humanity, 90</blockquote>


I have now commented on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liberal Party candidates, 40th Canadian federal election|deletion discussion]]. As for my edits, I was attempting to provide sources to unsourced content that had been deleted in an attempt to clean up the article.[[User:Mr. No Funny Nickname|Mr. No Funny Nickname]] ([[User talk:Mr. No Funny Nickname|talk]]) 17:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
All I can think is that I put in some kind of cavaet, like "Law in common parlance means da da da".


**I have also commented on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liberal Party candidates, 40th Canadian federal election|deletion discussion]]. I appreciate your comments about notability. I would be more than happy to provide adequate reliable sources for a fair and balanced article but Bearcat has blocked my access to the original article on Heather Carter. I must admit that I am quite a novice here and I am uncomfortable with Bearcat's bullying. Heather Carter's article has been on Wikipedia since February, 2007, and, I thought, had been approved for content by IrishGuy. Without warning, Bearcat redirected the article with a comment to the effect that unelected candidates were unworthy of an article. I undid his redirection. He threatened me. Later Mr. No Funny Nickname also undid the redirection. And, again, I was threatened. I do not know Mr. No Funny Nickname nor have I collaborated with him prior to this incident. I also object the Bearcat's involvement in editing Liberal party candidate's articles. He is a strong supporter of the NDP and as such I feel he should have the sense to recuse himself. Your help and guidance in helping to resolve these issues with Heather Carter's article would be very much appreciated. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Johncaron.ca|Johncaron.ca]] ([[User talk:Johncaron.ca|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Johncaron.ca|contribs]]) 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
But I expect that even if I rewrite it someone will want to change it, because maybe they take a Hart view, if there's a Dworkinian intro. Or maybe they take an Austin view if there's a Hartian intro. Or maybe they take a.... [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


== Orlondo Steinhauer ==
:For crying out loud... This isn't an academic forum! I'm perfectly aware that academics often debate the meaning of terms are quite intuitive to laypeople and that they have their reasons for doing so. This is very appropriate for their purposes, even. But the lead of an encyclopedic article is not the place to try to summarize such contrived discourse. The primary meaning of "law" is not that complicated as long as you're not trying to write a paper. If you want to present the finer details of the view of academics, do so in a separate section or something.
:[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 17:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


I think offering a suggested interpretation of the reasons for his release is too subjective for the header. I'll compose a new version - I hope you agree.
::There's no need to start crying, out loud or anywhere, mate. Isn't it surprising that the first sentence is the one that causes the most controversy?! I'm changing it primarily because your definition, Peter, is misleading. There is a separate section for detail, called Jurisprudence, and it is important, not academic. And I'm happy to keep the sentence simple. But I'm not sure you looked at everything I wrote in my reply: [[reprimand]]s and [[punishment]] are criminal law concepts. That's not what the vast majority of legal subjects are about - there's compensatory, restitutionary and punitive aims. [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 22:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
[[User:Dorrellc|Dorrellc]] ([[User talk:Dorrellc|talk]]) 02:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


== Thank you ==
::I think that as it is now the lead is OK: a brief definition in the first sentence, and further academic views in the relevant note.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 17:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
FYI - In reply to ''I would like to note first of all that this is the only page on Wikipedia on a whole social science or humanities discipline that is featured. '' - [[economics]] is a former featured article. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] 01:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Original_Barnstar.png|100px]]
:Sorry, you're right, it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economics&oldid=4976400 was]. [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 02:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you so much for the clean-up work you did on [[Weston, Ontario]]. [[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
|}


:I'm too late for the main page though apparently - it really is a mistake to talk about reprimands and punishments. Can it still be changed? Or maybe I should stop worrying so much. It's only fun, after all. Thank you to everyone! [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 03:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


I don't usually ask other people to fix articles that I could have fixed myself, but I've been down with a cold for several weeks, and just not feeling up to a big review and edit today. Thanks again for your help. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
::If you have an adm like me looking at the article, it can be changed at any moment! Well, I changed it according to this last version, which I hope that it will really be the last one! After all, IMO it is not such a big deal.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 10:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


== AfD nom of [[Chris Avenir]] ==
== Comments ==


I've nominated [[Chris Avenir]] for deletion; please offer your comments [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chris Avenir|here]]. Thanks! --[[User:Alinnisawest|Alinnisawest]],<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Alinnisawest|<font color="black">'''Dalek Empress'''</font>]]'''</sup> ([[User talk:Alinnisawest|<font color="#cf0021">'''extermination requests here]]'''</font>) 22:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The article looks good, but I think I might have objected to the FAC. Since that's passed, thought I'd nevertheless propose a few thoughts:
# Would it be reasonable to include a centralized section on sources of law? "Legislature" isn't mentioned until Legal Institutions, and "jurist" occurs only in the See Also section. Legislators and judges are of primary importance, yes, but what about regulators and jurists (outside of abstract philosophy)?
:Constitutional and administrative law do an okay job of mentioning these things. Perhaps you can have a closer read. [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
:*After all, it is difficult to speak about "Sources of law" in general in this article. You have to specify and speak about sources of law in each branch (international, administrative), and in each system (civil, common); something that is done. I'm afraid that the creation of a "Sources of law" section because of this fact (that its branch and system has its own particular sources) will cause more confusion.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 10:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
# The Legal Institutions section seems a little unencyclopedic to me, or perhaps it just looses focus on the Law. In order to properly understand the law, do we really need to know that most legislatures are bicameral or the differences between parliamentary and presidential executive systems? Worse, why does Executive focus only on the highest levels of government (heads of state and of government and their cabinents) but (almost completely) omit regulatory agencies, consigning them to a rambling discussion of "bureaucracy" its own subsection? I can kind-of-sort-of see a subsection for military and police separate from Executive, but it's still kind of weak and bifurcated as it stands. (Is it meant to discuss the history of militaries and police or the monopoly-of-force theory of the state?) In short, the discussion of "legal institutions" seems more appropriate to [[Government]] rather than Law. This isn't to say that some discussion isn't important, but the section needs more focus on The Law.
:Perhaps you can add to the Bureaucracy page, on regulatory agencies; that's what they are, aren't they? [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
# It seems like the classical order of introducing the branches of government would be legislative (which makes the law by and large, after all), executive (which enforces the law), and judicial (which interprets the law and moderates between the other two and the people). Niggling point, I know, but it would follow with the plans established by Locke and Montesquieu.
:Classical order? I'm not sure there's really an order. The reason though, is that the military and bureaucracy follow on from the executive; they're under its control (usually). [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
# Other niggling, pigheaded points: the European Parliament can't initiative legislation, only review and revise. It would be better methinks to have an image of a real legislature, like the [[Bundestag]]. Why Hu Jintao? Why not [[Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva]] or someone from a country actually under the rule of law? The Law is only beginning to have any real power in China, and otherwise is disregarded or used as a political weapon.
:You're right, it's niggling. But the EP does legislate. I put it there mostly because it's a better picture. By the way, does the Bundestag legislate by itself? Doesn't it need the [[Bundesrat]]? It sounds like we should keep discussion of bicameralism in after all! [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
--[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 02:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
:I'm being cheeky with you, but you don't raise bad points. Perhaps there's a lot of stuff you can help to add in the main pages on government? I did myself wonder whether legal sources might be a good way of doing it, but then decided, because of the civil/common law discussion above, that it's largely covered already. The institutions also are important because these are the most crucial sources of law, and the most important institutions for its being upheld. [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
:*I'll answer just to the last point for the time being: The EP cannot initiate legislation (only the Commission does), but it is a part of the legislation procedure, and most European legislation is not nowadays adopted without its approvemen. So, I don't think that there is a problem with the picture, since the EP is a real legislature with legislative powers.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 11:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
::It's no big deal about the EP--personal preference I suppose. But since the purpose of the section is to explain legislature's role in crafting the law, it seems a lit—[[User:OtherDave|OtherDave]] 01:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)tle odd to feature a body with hobbled powers.--[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 19:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


== Replace this image ==
::I'll defer on most of the points, but would there be objection to my replacing Hu with Lula? That aside I really think the Legal Institutions section weighs down the article. I'm not fond of so prominently featuring the term "Bureaucracy" in this sense: it seems to be a derogatory (or at least loaded) term, especially when coupled with "red tape" and the quote from de Grimm. Again, I can see how the content of "Bureaucracy" relates to, well, bureaucracy, but I'm less sure how it relates to the Law. The word "law" doesn't even appear in the subsection, nor does "regulation" or "administrative courts" (which, in the U.S. at least need not be courts under Article III). Would it really harm the article to trim Bureaucracy and Military/Police and merge them into Executive? Or at the very least make them sub-subsections of it? As for the ordering of the institutions, Locke treats first of the legislative then the executive, and Montesquieu establishes first the legislative, then the executive, and then the judicial, and this ordering is followed at least in the U.S. Constitution. Anyway, as for sources of law, I guess I'd just like to see discussion of the historical importance of jurists, which overlaps judges' opinions and legal practice today. Ah well. And bicameralism doesn't apply the EP: it's inferior to both the Commission and the Council (tricameral?), and I believe the Bundestag can make its will prevail over the Bundesrat. ;) --[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 15:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Hi, as you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Image_placeholders&diff=prev&oldid=211759736 added the conclusion to] [[Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders]], would you mind commenting on [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AmeliorationBot 2]]? Thanks, <span style="font-family:tahoma;font-size:80%;font-weight:bold;">~ [[User:Ameliorate!|<span style="color:black;">User:Ameliorate!</span>]]</span> <sup>(with the !) ([[User talk:Ameliorate!|talk]])</sup> 16:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
:::No, the Bundestag cannot always prevail on Bundesrat. Bicameralism does not refer to the EP. EP is pictured as an example of legislature; not as an example of bicameralism. After all, the section speaks also about unicameralism. And it is wrong to compare the Commission with the EP, because the commission may have the legislative initiative but has limited decisive powers (mostly regulatory and not legislative), while the EP has more decisive legislative powers compared to the Commission.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 16:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


:: Thanks much for passing along the heads-up on this issue! My comments on the bot discussion page. Hope all's well with you. -[[User:Peteforsyth|Pete]] ([[User talk:Peteforsyth|talk]]) 21:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Oh! And "bureaucracy" as a term is not deragotary at all. "Bureaucracy" is a whole sector of public administration established by Weber, and as a scientific discipline is much much much broader and important than what we call nowadays "red tape". That is why I insisted during the article's review to make clear this distinction. Weber and other theoriticians regarded bureaucracy as a necessary and helpful system in a developped country. I'm very reluctant to see this section removed or even trimmed. And it related to the law, because the main branch of executive, public administration and its institutions are built on the bureaucratic system.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 16:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


:::Thanks for sending word of this. Sorry, I didn't see your message in time to comment on the bot discussion page, but it looks like there was a healthy discussion there. I learned a lot from that (exhausting) debate -- I hope not to get myself involved in something like that again, but if I do, I'll be smarter about it. best, [[User:Northwesterner1|Northwesterner1]] ([[User talk:Northwesterner1|talk]]) 09:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Yannismarou, the Bundestag comment was in response to Wikidea's comment. I had hoped the emoticon would have weakened the import of the statment, but I suppose I was deceived in that hope. I'm not pushing the point anyway. This is not the place for a debate on the merits or nature of the EP in general or in relation to the image: we disagree, and I can live with that. As for "Bureaucracy." Yes, it is a field of study and can be a scientific term: it's the title of a major text in public economics. But, when the header of the subsection is taken together with the de Grimm quotation (in short, "the state exists to serve the welfare of bureaucracy"), the use of "Cynicism" and "officialdom," and the [http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=bureaucracy popular, negative connotation of the term "bureaucracy"] as opposed to "civil service" or "regulatory/executive/administrative agencies," I'm left with a negative impression. And I ''know'' how executive agencies are related to the law: they enforce the law by force, execute it by order and grant, and expand it through rule and regulation. I ''would like to know'' why this is not succinctly and clearly stated. Must I burrow through de Grimm and Weber to divine the relation to the law? The closing sentence of the subsection, "Bureaucracy can play a negative role with ever more 'red tape', or a positive one, by organising public services such as schooling, health care, policing or public transport," is ambiguous (a role in what exactly?) and has only indirect relation to the Law. What I'm asking, and I don't think it's unreasonable, is that the relationship between the topics of these subsections and the Law be clarified and brought more to the fore. This need not entail trimming or removal--though I'd be much happier if Military/Police and Bureaucracy were made sub-subsections of Executive. I see you have some thematic elements in the sublead of Legal Institutions setting up the existing structure, but I still think it's better to defer to Locke and Montesquieu: the military power and civilian agencies are not generally co-equal branches in their own right.--[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 19:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


== Monarchy of Canada ==
::::I understand that the question was for Wikipedia, but don't I have the right to express my mind? And my mind is that, in this case (EP, Bundestag, Bundesrat), Wikidea is right and that your comparaison of EP with the ECouncil and the ECom is wrong (And by the way, if we want to categorize the system of the EU, then it is bicameral, because the decisive legislative power is shared between the ECouncil and the EP). I must point out that the structure in the "Institutions" section is of Wikidea and not mine. Therefore, although I agree that the prose could be "more to the point" than it is now, I wouldn't like to take initiatives without having heard his opinion. But you can also take initiatives (especially, if you are a native English speaker, and since you have already nominated and promoted a FA), by initiating prose improvements that would address the concerns of yours as I did during the article's FA review.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 20:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::And why do you prefer Lula instead of the Chinese premier?!!! Hmmmmmm ?????--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 20:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Perhaps my knowledge of EU institutions is a little out of date. The reason I haven't taken much initiative (although I have tweaked some text here and there) is that I wanted to see if there were any compromises I would be undoing or if I'd be flying in the face of sound reasoning. And also to get other's opinions on the matter. :) As for Hu vs. Lula: No government is perfect, but the Chinese regime, represented by its president, is just a little too nasty for my tastes in this regard. Many regimes avoid the moral odium of the Chinese regime, but I suppose we don't just want to draw from Europe and North America in terms of images, so Brazil and its well regarded president leapt to mind. Lula, [[Néstor Kirchner]] (Argentina) or [[Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono]] (Indonesia) would all be better, methinks. We could also select a head of government instead of head of state.--[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 21:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


DoubleBlue, though I'm sure your intentions are good, your last couple of edits to [[Monarchy of Canada]] have created large blank spaces in the article. Were you trying to fix something? --[[User:G2bambino|G2bambino]] ([[User talk:G2bambino|talk]]) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
==Clearer opening?==
:I've responded at my talk. Cheers. --[[User:G2bambino|G2bambino]] ([[User talk:G2bambino|talk]]) 02:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


==200K==
I don't want to add to the burden of fixing all the spam that FA status "conveys," so I'm NOT being bold. I'm suggesting that this language:
I so need a life... [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 18:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
:When mortgaging or renting a house, property law defines people's rights and duties towards a bank or landlord. When earning pensions, trust law protects savings....
Is convoluted as well as ungrammatical (property law doesn't rent houses; trust law doesn't earn pensions). Why not keep the format of the preceding and following sentences? Something like:
:Property law defines rights and obligations related to buying, selling, or renting real property such as homes and buildings. Trust law applies to assets held for investment, such as pension funds...
I'm not conversant with the subject matter, so these are only examples of possible rewrites. —[[User:OtherDave|OtherDave]] 01:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


== [[Soundtrack for Scenario]] ==
:I changed it. [[User:Lesgles|Lesgles]] (<small>[[User_talk:Lesgles|talk]]</small>) 17:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Just letting you know that an article on the band still hasn't been created. I don't think the sources support notability either way, though. [[User:TenPoundHammer|<span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>]] and his otters • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Broken clamshells]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|Otter chirps]] • [[:User:TenPoundHammer/Country|HELP]])</sup> 02:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
== '''''Small''''' numbers of countries '''''still''''' . . . ==
*I moved that sandbox to an article. You might want to inform the AFD nominator. I'm going to bed now. [[User:TenPoundHammer|<span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>]] and his otters • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Broken clamshells]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|Otter chirps]] • [[:User:TenPoundHammer/Country|HELP]])</sup> 03:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


== Region restricted external link ==
'''. . . base their law on religious scripts.'''


Hi, the problem is that the link I removed is only viewable in Canada (and possibly the US). [[WP:ELNO]] states: ''Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users'' should be avoided. I hope that's clearer. Cheers, --[[User:JD554|JD554]] ([[User talk:JD554|talk]]) 17:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I am somewehat concerned about the use of these two words, which don't really seem NPOV, and also don't necessarily seem accurate in the sense of being supportable with references. I would suggest a rewrite to:
:I don't think there is an easy way as it would be down to the website in question putting the information somewhere on their site. The only way to be sure is when someone (like me) notices they can't use the content. --[[User:JD554|JD554]] ([[User talk:JD554|talk]]) 05:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
<blockquote>
Some countries base their law on religious scripts.
</blockquote>


== Thanks! ==
The word '''''small''''' is fairly meaningless in this context, especially without a reference, though the implication seems to be that such countries are clearly backward, since they are so heavily outnumbered by countries that ignore their people's religious beliefs in making law. Is that even accurate? Or, are the countries with legal systems originating in religion actually in the majority?


Thanks for your message, I will be exploring the editing links in full over the next few days. Thought I had been signing my messages and adding editing summaries to my edits, but this is often late-at-night (2 am) work for me, so the occasional blank edit summary may slip by :)
The word '''''still''''' seems even more troublesome. Is this suggesting that most countries that once had a system of law based in religion have abandoned their old system? Is it suggesting that no new religiously-based systems of law have been constructed in modern times? I can't believe that either of these suggestions even approaches an accurate representation of reality.


[[User:BeeArkKey|BeeArkKey]] 05:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[[User:Guinness323|Guinness323]] ([[User talk:Guinness323|talk]]) 15:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


== Lady Law Pic ==
== HEY ==


I ONLII ACCIDDENTLI USED DA CAPS LOCK SO DON''T DELTETE IIT! DATS NOT FAIR MAN, PUT IT BAK!
The picture of Lady Law seems to have changed. I find both representations of her pretty awful. Can someone find a picture that has less emphasis on female sexuality (weird perky breasts or exposed legs)? It's an article on law! --[[User:345Kai|345Kai]] 10:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Tosh and Balderfibble, lets have a picture of a statue of law from a better angle, sexuality be damned, take your prudishness elsewhere. [[User:LordFenix|LordFenix]] 13:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


it might be a better representaton of law if we went with somethig other that a outmoded symbol, perhaps a pic of a courthouse or a court room [[User:Boatman666|Boatman666]] 15:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


LATERZ <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/62.56.112.43|62.56.112.43]] ([[User talk:62.56.112.43|talk]]) 18:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Personally, the photo I like most is the one in the lead of [[Justice]] article, but we can't have it in the lead of both articles, can we? Second best, IMO, is the current photo. And I also do not care about sexuality. After all, this is the article about law, isn't it? Where is then the respect for human rights?! Doesn't Lady Justice have the right to be sexy?!! Let's not make discriminations! But I am open to ideas like the one of Boatman, if there are other good photos.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 15:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


== Signing ==
Kai, would you rather be judged by a sexy lady or a haggard old crone? [[User:Vranak|Vranak]]


Hi! Thanks for signing, thats 5 now, and one step closer to [[World domination]]! --'''[[User:Climax Void|<font color="red">Climax</font>]] [[User talk:Climax Void|<font color="gold">Void</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Climax Void|<font size="3"><font color="red">☭</font></font>]]. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 20:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
how about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:STL_oldcourthouse-2.jpg#file [[User:Boatman666|Boatman666]] 03:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


== Thanks ==
I commend you on taking that picture of the dome Boatman, but honestly I think we should leave it as it is. It'd be even better if everyone helped edit the main articles in the page! [[User:Wikidea|Wikidea]] 08:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AKnownot&diff=242677450&oldid=242677340 this] revert on my user page =) -[[User:Knownot|Abhishek]] <sup> [[User talk:Knownot| Talk]] </sup> 05:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
== Why... ==


== Re ==
... is there no section titled 'Criticisms' in this otherwise fine article? There's certainly plenty that can be drawn from Nietzsche's works. [[On the Genealogy of Morals]] springs to mind. [[User:Vranak|Vranak]]


You're welcome! :) [[User:Pinkadelica|Pinkadelica]] ([[User talk:Pinkadelica|talk]]) 06:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:I partly agree with you. I don't think that a "Criticisms" section is necessary, but in "Philosophy of law" we could have these critics, and also more about the Marxist approach.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 17:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


== Re: Prod ==
::I included Nietzche's conception of law in "Philosophy of Law".--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 19:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Hi DoubleBlue. Sure, didn't realize the edtsum contraction prod, for producer, could be taken to be mean [[Wikipedia:Prod]]. That would be a sticky wicket. Thanks [[User:Petersent|Petersent]] ([[User talk:Petersent|talk]]) 05:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Good job.


== Notre Dame Regional ==
::: I also recall a few other things Nietzsche said about law... he postulated a future where a man would dictate his own punishment, and of one where a man would not be bound by any laws unless he himself agreed to them a priori. Also, there's the classic "Distrust he in whom the impulse to punish is strong".


Thank you for keeping an eye out for a false entry '* Antonio Caso. - Defenseman - National Hockey League - Montreal Canadiens - Hockey'.
::: Also, I recall a lengthy discussion by Nietzsche, criticizing the notion that criminals have 'free will' to either commit a crime or abstain from it, and that by failing to abstain they must be punished.
I never entered this name & I'm not familiar with it. I'm an alumini of this school & I coach there also, and the names I've entered are well known in our trophy cases and I've made links to other areas of wiki, where possible, and external websites to prove their existance.[[User:Iota 9|Iota 9]] ([[User talk:Iota 9|talk]]) 14:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


Thanks doubleblue. I love you. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ciyean|Ciyean]] ([[User talk:Ciyean|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ciyean|contribs]]) 06:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::: Nietzsche also systematically discusses the reasons a society has for punishing lawbreakers. [[User:Vranak|Vranak]]


==Bureaucracy and Monocrat's objections==
Monocrat said:


== Stockdale ==
"As for "Bureaucracy." Yes, it is a field of study and can be a scientific term: it's the title of a major text in public economics. But, when the header of the subsection is taken together with the de Grimm quotation (in short, "the state exists to serve the welfare of bureaucracy") and the [popular negative impression of the term "bureaucracy" http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=bureaucracy] as opposed to "civil service" or "regulatory/executive/administrative agencies," "Cynicism," and "officialdom," I'm left with a negative impression. And I ''know'' how executive agencies are related to the law: they enforce the law by force, execute it by order and grant, and expand it through rule and regulation. I ''would like to know'' why this is not succinctly and clearly stated. Must I burrow through de Grimm and Weber to divine the relation to the law? The closing sentence of the subsection, "Bureaucracy can play a negative role with ever more 'red tape', or a positive one, by organising public services such as schooling, health care, policing or public transport," is ambiguous (a role in what exactly?) and has only indirect relation to the Law. What I'm asking, and I don't think it's unreasonable, is that the relationship between the topics of these subsections and the Law be clarified and brought more to the fore."
Hey: could you read the explanation in the Talk page before blindly reverting the article? The removed quote screams "Urban Legend" rather than real facts, and is presented with scant evidence (A post on a random message board remembering Stockdale when he died). Stop putting it back until there's facts behind it! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Crock1701|Crock1701]] ([[User talk:Crock1701|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crock1701|contribs]]) 06:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


==AfD nomination of Beta Omicron Iota==
I think that these thoughts should be taken into consideration. Although I disagreed in other matter with Monocrat, I'm afraid that here he may have a point.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 12:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Ambox warning pn.svg|48px|left]]An article that you have been involved in editing, [[Beta Omicron Iota]], has been listed for [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deletion]]. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beta Omicron Iota]]. Thank you. <small>Do you want to [[Template:Bots#Message notification opt out|opt out]] of receiving this notice?</small><!-- Template:Adw --> [[User:Unschool|Unschool]] ([[User talk:Unschool|talk]]) 05:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


==Thanks==
:I've moved the para about a bit, to try without adding anything to get across what I meant better - and that wasn't at all that we should be cynical about bureaucracy! Hopefully there's less ambiguity now. More generally, it occured to me, perhaps something about administrative law is worth mentioning in there (or even tort, as it relates to public sector stuff) since that's usually focussed entirely on holding the state's apparatus to account. On the de Grimm quote, it's simply something I found randomly and thought was a witty and illuminating intro to what "bureaucracies" are, as well as being a very early use of the word. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 08:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Useight&diff=244072049&oldid=243040837 this piece of vandalism] left on my talk page. That was one of the more fun ones, I put it at [[User:Useight/Complaints]]. Thanks again for your help. [[User:Useight|Useight]] ([[User talk:Useight|talk]]) 05:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


== Length of Article ==
== Input ==


There is a [[Wikipedia:Administrators's noticeboard#Aggressive tendentious edit warrior - community ban/sanction proposal|post]] on [[WP:AN]] that you may or may not wish to comment on. [[User:PrinceOfCanada|Prince of Canada]]<sup>[[User talk:PrinceOfCanada#top| t]] <small>|</small> [[Special:Contributions/PrinceOfCanada|c]]</sup> 07:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This article is getting rather long. Has anybody given any thought as to how to "tighten it up" a little? At a glance, it seems like the opening section could be more pointed, and maybe some of the material under history, philosophy, and economics of law could be trimmed? [[User:BeeArkKey|BeeArkKey]] 14:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


== hey guy ==
:While some trimming here and there might be reasonable, the topic is broad enough that I don't think it's necessary to worry much about the size limit. At least until some of the major subarticles are grown sufficiently. In fact, I think some sections need to be increased modestly.--[[User:Monocrat|Monocrat]] 20:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


Saw you moved western alienation to "mid Importance" Well I don't dispute the move, it wasn't really necessary, the only reason I commented was because it seemed "low" priority for western alienation in a canadian wiki project, basically summed up the crux of western alienation, ie that our interests are treated as low priority. [[User:TotallyTempo|TotallyTempo]] ([[User talk:TotallyTempo|talk]]) 02:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, the article is long, but it's one of those ones that is important to have as a long article. Also, what makes it appear long in KB size is the referencing and the pictures, which aren't actually article length itself. What I would really really like is if people looked at this and then went on to the sub articles to edit those. I'm trying to figure out how to put a box at the top of this page to point people in that direction - I think a lot of topics for broad academic pages could well use the same kind of thing. <font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font> 01:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Yes, count kbs of prose and not the total length of the article. And I agree that its scope is broad, so such a lenght is expected. After all, he article already makes use of [[WP:SS]] and no section is too long.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 16:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


==Football infobox==
Some parts do seem to go into excessive detail, such as the detailed example of self-defense under "Criminal law". The sections "Contracts", "Tort law", "Property law", and "Trusts and equity", could be significantly compressed without removing anything essential to an overview. They could be combined into a "civil law" section (as opposed to criminal law) or simply added to the list of "disciplines". They could also be trimmed in place by removing or shortening the specific examples which go on for multiple sentences (the wordiness of which is reminiscent of a judicial ruling, and is perhaps somewhat excessive for an encyclopedia). The contents of these sections might make good additions to the introductions or bodies of the sub-articles, though. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 05:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I know we've had some conflicts about the use of [[Template:Infobox NFLactive]] on CFL player articles, and I was wondering if there was anything that could be done to the template that would satisfy you to the point where we might be able to use it for both NFL and CFL players. I believe in the past you've said it was very "NFL-centric" or something to that effect, and you're right. However, I don't think there are any such features that cannot be altered. For one, I think we can change the NFL debut section to say "Professional debut" so that it could be used for any league, no matter where a guy started. We can also make CFL stat sections and a CFL link that will show up ''in addition'' to an NFL one if we want, instead of being replaced by the NFL one. Just let me know if this is a something we can work on. Either way, I am going to do some work on the template to make it more league-neutral. Despite its name, I always intended it to be usable for any league.►'''[[User:Chrisjnelson|<span style="color: #005e6a">Chris </span><span style="color: #DF6108">Nelson</span>]]'''<sup>''[[User talk:Chrisjnelson|Holla!]]''</sup> 22:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


:Well actually, the NFLActive one was the only one that was my idea. Banned user [[User:Jmfangio|Jmfangio]] created both, but the active one was really only mine and that's the one I primarily work with since I'm focused on updating current players.
== Section on Roman law and its contribution to 'Western' law ==


:I'm going to have [[User:Pats1]] unblock the template so I can make some of these changes. I'm going to do all the stuff I've said above, though if you have any other suggestions on changes or necessary additions to accompany other leagues, let me know.►'''[[User:Chrisjnelson|<span style="color: #005e6a">Chris </span><span style="color: #DF6108">Nelson</span>]]'''<sup>''[[User talk:Chrisjnelson|Holla!]]''</sup> 22:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
<blockquote>As a legal system, Roman law has affected the development of law in most of [[Western civilization|Western civilisation]] as well as in parts of the [[Eastern world]]. It also forms the basis for the law codes of most countries of continental Europe ({{cite encyclopedia|title=Roman law|encyclopedia=Encyclopaedia Britannica}}).</ref></blockquote>
Can another encyclopedia be used as a reference?!--[[User:Mrg3105|Mrg3105]] 08:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


::Hey, just wanted to let you know that I made the changes I mentioned. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Chrisjnelson/Sandbox&oldid=244495674 Here] is what it looks like.►'''[[User:Chrisjnelson|<span style="color: #005e6a">Chris </span><span style="color: #DF6108">Nelson</span>]]'''<sup>''[[User talk:Chrisjnelson|Holla!]]''</sup> 02:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
== Larry Sanger's Citizendium ==


==CFL==
I thought that some users might be interested in this, which I find quite comical, to be found on the new [[Citizendium]] website, where this law page has been copied verbatim as a start:
So hey, do you follow the CFL closely?►'''[[User:Chrisjnelson|<span style="color: #005e6a">Chris </span><span style="color: #DF6108">Nelson</span>]]'''<sup>''[[User talk:Chrisjnelson|Holla!]]''</sup> 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

<blockquote>"This article, a typical Wikipedia article, attempts to sum up every major area of the law in one article, and as a result simply cannot succeed in providing a clear exposition of any of them. Why should an article about discipline X take the form of a list of definitions of all the subdisciplines of X? It shouldn't. See Biology for a different approach. The topic of the article is not "categories of law," but instead, law. Hence (I think) it should dwell quite a bit on the philosophical question, "What is law?" and introduce some of the problems and subdisciplines of law as part of an interesting narrative about the law. This is difficult, but it's only such an article that will actually satisfy a demand for an article with the title "law." The function of this article is not to act as a table of contents to the rest of law-related articles, but to introduce the topic named in the title, for people who presumably need an introduction. Imagine, for instance, trying to explain what law itself is to a college student who is considering studying the law. I don't have any specific suggestions as to how the article might be structured, but I do think that at present it lacks anything like an interesting, cohesive narrative that might make someone actually want to read it from beginning to end. --[[Larry Sanger]] 17:29, 23 February 2007 (CST)"</blockquote>

The link is [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Law here]. Since I (among others) wrote the vast majority of this page, I'd just like to say for the record that Larry's got it a bit wrong. If he wants an explanation of "what is law" then he needs to look at the [[Jurisprudence]] page, which actually, the section on Jurisprudence on the law page explains quite well! (But maybe he didn't read, and just wanted to criticise!) I just came across this as a result of reading a [http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article2409783.ece newspaper article] today. I wanted to post a message on their page, but I have to register first. That I don't plan to do for the moment, which is why I'm doing it here. There's also talk there of splitting the articles in some way on their page. How funny! The great irony is, that on Citizendium there doesn't seem to be enough expertise yet to know what to do. Hence nothing has happened for 7 months. Why don't their editors just help to improve this page (or not make assumptions about the qualifications of people on Wikipedia)? For the record, I (personally) welcome all the work, from everyone who wants improvement, and all the comments I continue to see here. The good thing about Wikipedia of course is that even if there can be a tendency for "mob rule" in some cases, in most it's also makes content more accountable to what the "mob" might want to know. And no hard feelings on Larry. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

:Wikidea, why do you feel the need to apologize? The article is revered here in Wikipedia, it has gone through a tough FAC with success, and IMO it is the best encyclopedic article around on its topic (although my structure may indeed have been a bit different than yours). The fact that Citizendium first copies it, and then criticizes it is also another medal for your efforts, and for the efforts of all of us who worked to make this article FA. The best way Mr. Sanger and Mr. Scott Dubin can prove that this article is not good is to write a better article, and not just copy ours (I mean our Wikipedia Community's)! Go for it Mr. Sanger!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] 11:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

== Head section ==

I re-inserted the socialist and customary law material because I feel it's incomplete to mention civil law and common law as basic distinctions as I believe that those without much background knowledge might assume that all counties fall into one of these two categories. If there's a way to reword the paragraph to convey the meaning I suggest we should express, please feel free. I also was curious about why "religious scripts" was used, but if there's sufficient justification, that would be different. Thank you. --[[User:24.211.242.80|24.211.242.80]] 14:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

==Property law==

I removed following sentences from the section: "The idea of privately owned property is still contentious. French philosopher Pierre Proudhon once famously wrote, "property is theft"." First section (unsourced by the way) gives undue weight to extremely fringe views. Second is also misleading, since Proudhon also said that property is liberty. For more information read [[Property is theft!]]. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision Thing --]] 21:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
:For more information, read the book itself! I think you need first of all though to understand the nature of property, with all its shades and degrees. "Private property" is not all as common as you might assume. If your house is heritage listed and you can't change it, is it still really "private"? If a health care company is not allowed to distribute drugs without testing, is it private? Don't tell people that the concept isn't contentious, when your next election is about to be fought on what extent HMOs are allowed to claim that health care is their business and their private property. And if you've got something to add, then find a citation! '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 08:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
::You need to find citation for claim that private property is still "contentious". As for Proudhon, he is an obscure philosopher, and to mention him together with John Locke gives undue weight to his fringe views. Not to mention that his views can not be condensed into "property is theft" phrase. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 11:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
:::What do you suggest then, other than deleting material, and sticking up silly tags? Proudhon might be obscure to you. I think it's you who isn't neutral. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 11:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
::::Since I know anarchist thought pretty well, I'm aware of Proudhon and his writings. However, he is obscure for the public and mainstream thought. Only other solution that I see is to say that the idea of privately owned property is still contentious in some socialist or left-leaning circles. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 11:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think you're looking at this the wrong way, it's not just tree hugging pinkos - take a look for instance at Article 14 of the German Constitution - "Property obliges"; or I think it's mentioned in the article itself, Adolf Berle and Gardiner Means book on the Modern Corporation and Private Property - they say that the traditional concept of property has been destroyed. There's a huge strand of people who say the same - which is why that sentence isn't referenced (it's as clear as the day). It's also ironic to contend a statement saying something is not contentious, when to prove your point you are in contention! But I tell you what, taking your suggestion, how about we put up "Private property has remained contentious in the view of a number of thinkers. For example" - that also puts things more in the past tense '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 12:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
::::::Maybe "has ''been'' contentious" is better solution because Proudhon wrote his book in 1840. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 12:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Deal. But I think you'll find that people even today contend these things more than you think. If you want an American example, look up Paul Sweezy, ''[[Monopoly Capital]]. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 12:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

== NPOV and UN ==

The article says "The United Nations, founded under the UN Charter, is the most important international organisation, established after the Treaty of Versailles's failure and World War II." This sounds like an opinion rather than fact. I, for one, would argue that NATO is and has been far more important in setting international law because the UN has so little power to enforce (and enforcement is part of the definition of law given in first sentence of article) so that in practice it is NATO that has more to decide what international law is than the UN. But to maintain NPOV, I would just change this sentence to say something like "The United Nations, founded under the UN Charter after the Treaty of Versailles's failure and World War II, is seen by many as the most important international organisation due to its inclusion of nearly all nations." [[User:Readin|Readin]] 01:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

:It is opinion - you're free to change it as you see fit. I suggest something like "is an important international organisation". [[User:John Smith's|John Smith&#39;s]] 20:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

==Bastiat==
Why is Bastiat not mentioned in this article, especially considering this article falls within the scope of wikipedia's philosophy project. Is not the purpose of the law to prevent injustice. Injustice defined as encroachment of life, liberty, and property? --[[Special:Contributions/67.11.21.94|67.11.21.94]] ([[User talk:67.11.21.94|talk]]) 03:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

:The simple reason is that Bastiat isn't as significant as the people already on the page, and there's limited space, because this is necessarily a summary article. By all means, write something about him on the [[Philosophy of law]] page or some of the sub articles! It would be great of you, if you know about the man (the [[Bastiat]] article isn't in great shape either!). '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 13:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

==Law vs. Morality, Ethics==

Where is the distinction between morality, ethics and legality?<br />Can something be one and not the others? legal but immoral? moral but illegal?<br />--[[User:Dwarf Kirlston|Kiyarr]]<nowiki>lls</nowiki>[[User Talk:Dwarf Kirlston|ton]] 04:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)<br />PS and does this discussion/question have any place in this article?

:I think you'll find some basic discussion under the [[Philosophy of law]] section, and a bit more in the main article. The "positivists" say that law and morality are independent concepts. The "natural lawyers" and human rights activists would generally argue that law and morality are interdependent. The discussion gets very complicated. If you take a common sense approach, of course law can be immoral, but then again, what is morality? People have different moralities, and law is a form of morality of its own. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 12:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

::Maybe a bit belated as a comment but anyway... For example, a code of ethics is a collection of non-legally binding principles, often used as guidelines for people within the same trade (e.g. code of ethics for journalists). Morality is a subjective perception of what is right or wrong and is often influenced by religion or other philosophical beliefs (e.g. to cheat on one's wife is immoral according to Christian standards). Legality refers to what the law states (e.g. it is illegal to steal because theft is a crime punished by penal law). For the relation between legality and morality see the above comment. [[User:Pel thal|Pel thal]] ([[User talk:Pel thal|talk]]) 16:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

==Questionable quotation==

There seems to be a problem with the following quotation in the introduction:

"In its majestic equality", said the author Anatole France in 1894, "the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."

But if you check the source, the original text is as follows:

"The poor must work for this, in presence of the majestic quality of the law which prohibits the wealthy as well as the poor from sleeping under the bridges, from begging in the streets, and from stealing bread."

Is there a problem with the translation or something? [[User:Firewall62|Firewall62]] ([[User_talk:Firewall62|talk]]) 18:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

:Mai oui, parce que c'est francais! I hope you don't mind, but my French is better than the translator's. If you read the actual words in French it sounds fluent and concise. Hopefully this is what good translators do. :) '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::Do you have the original French text, mon ami?--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:::C'est dans la text, n'est pas? Or it at least it was there in the footnote before... Yes, it is. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Recent changes ==

I introduced following changes to the article:

1) I changed caption under picture of Lady Justice per source I gave.
:You're welcome to put back in that footnote (although I expect there's something a little less obscure), but I didn't see the point of rephrazing. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::Change was not only in rephrasing, symbols were described differently in accordance with the source I provided. If you have other explanation from "less obscure" source... [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

2) I removed following quote from the intro: "In its majestic equality", said the author [[Anatole France]] in 1894, "the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." It is a POV view that is not balanced by other views, such that poor and rich are truly equal under the law. Also, per [[Wikipedia:Lead section|Wikipedia guideline on lead section]], lead should summarize the rest of the article. I don't see what that quote summarizes. It is not even repeated in the rest of the article. Same goes for the unsourced sentence that precedes it ('' The study of law raises important questions about equality, fairness and justice, which are not always simple.'' – this stinks of OR).
:The comment is designed to show that thing's aren't simple! Not that it's true. It gives the reader something to think about, and nobody else who's read it has complained. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::That comment is presenting only one side of debate. Anatole France is a socialist author (not even a law scholar) who is arguing in favor of egalitarianism. So that quote needs to go or it needs to be balanced with another quote so that both sides of debate are presented. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

3) I added fact tag for caption under South Sea Bubble image. It is stated that South Sea Bubble led to strict regulation on share trading, what is a source for that claim?
:The [[Bubble Act]] (to find out click on the South Sea Bubble: corporations were banned until the 19th century as a result of that episode) and ''[[Keech v. Sandford]]''. This is another example, my friend, of you trying to fix thing's before you're informed. You are not the first and certainly not the only one, but you must learn to exercise a little deference. The whole following section talks about the case. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::[[Bubble Act]] states that the act was passed to prevent other companies from competing with the South Sea Company for investors' capital, not to prevent further speculations and crashes as current caption indicates. [[Keech v. Sandford]] doesn’t mention South Sea Bubble. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

4) I added sourced claim that Proudhon argued that property is not only theft but also freedom.
:You didn't check what I'd done, I'd put the extra reference in the footnote. But really I was nice to do that. If Proudhon said property is freedom (and I believe you if you say he did) then really you should be citing that passage of one of his pieces of work, not a secondary source. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::As far as I know, secondary source if enough, especially because some Proudhon's works haven't been translated. However, maybe I'm not aware of some Wikipedia policy on this. If that is the case please direct me to it. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 22:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What are the reasons for reverting these changes? [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 18:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:Ok, you presented your arguments. Now, wait for Wikidea's response (which I hope will be more civil than his edit summaries). I'll just comment on point 2 where I see no POV. It is a nice quote that makes the narration more vivid and taking for the reader. Personally, I'm fed up with all this POV-madness. As far as the "The study of law raises important questions about equality, fairness and justice, which are not always simple", I must say that it looks to me a bit like a verbalism, and it could be rephrased or even go, but asking for a source for such a general statement?! I do not think so! About Proudhon I do not know! About the captions: what was wrong with the previous caption of Lady Justice? About the South bla bla image, if the caption's assertion is contested or questioned, then yes a source should be provided.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::NPOV is one of core Wikipedia's policies. What do you mean by "POV-madness"? Quote is given undue weight by its place in the introduction. [[WP:LEAD]] states that: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources." Is importance and fame of that quote such that it merits a prominent mention in the lead? I don't see how. That quote is not even discussed within ''this'' article. Explanation of Lady Justice's attributes was different than the one I found in the source I gave. And if I understand Wikipedia's polices correctly, sourced claims are superior to unsourced claims. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 19:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:::I do not agree with "undue weight". What I do believe is that when speaking generally about the law (which is what the particular lead should do), this quote looks to fit fine in the prose, and illustrate the previous clause (the one "stinking of OR per your opinion"). So, the quote is for illustrative reasons there, and in order to make the prose more vivid. In this sense, personally I don't feel bad having it in the lead, and I do not see why it should be discussed in ''this'' article. But I do agree that the previous sentence could be rephrased so that it gets more encyclopedic, and less weasel. About the caption: If Wikidea's description is inaccurate, you are correct, but I want also to read his comments.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::::And finally, it's a vexatious, disingenous method of editing to shove up some tag other and try to use it as a bargaining chip to make people do what you want to see happen. I view it as bad manners. The better method - the constructive method, is simply to pick up a book and help out that way. And come to the talk page. I'll look forward to an improvement. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

==What is Property?==
According to [http://www.gutenberg.org/files/360/360-h/360-h.htm Proudhon],
:II. '''Property''', in its turn, '''violates''' equality by the rights of exclusion and increase, and '''freedom''' by despotism. The former effect of property having been sufficiently developed in the last three chapters, I will content myself here with establishing by a final comparison, its perfect identity with robbery.

So I'm afraid you're going to have to find the quote that Clarke-Linzey have used, and then you have to show what it was they were referring to; maybe they were just wrong. You, VThing, certainly are for stubbornly persisting with the same as before when you were already told. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 21:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure here is exact quote:

"In my first memorandum, in a frontal assault upon the established order, I said things like, Property is theft! The intention was to lodge a protest, to highlight, so to speak, the inanity of out institutions. At the time, that was my sole concern. Also, in the memorandum in which I demonstrated that startling proposition using simple arithmetic, I took care to speak out against any communist conclusion.

In ''the System of Economic Contradictions'', having recalled and confirmed my initial formula, I added another quite contrary one rooted in considerations of quite another order – a formula that could neither destroy the first proposition nor be demolished by it: Property is freedom."

I would ask you to return the favor and quote a relevant passage from the JSTOR on Bubble Act. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 22:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:That's fine, but why is it such an effort to get this out of you VT, especially when you're demanding citations from me? On this article you need to take special care. It is not enough just to say "Proudhon said property is theft and also freedom" without explaining what that means. Otherwise it's incoherent to the readers. It also appears that we simply don't need the secondary source. Now that you have it, why don't you put (in a short clause) what he was referring to when he said property is theft (the above quote I gave shows that: by excluding others from the fruits of the earth or something) and then say what he meant (which I haven't got from the extracts you just put in) when he said property is freedom. You need to put in the name of the article or book where that comes from.
:You should also recognise that I'm being nice to you. This page is not for a discussion on philosophy. It's meant to raise questions in enquiring minds and send them on to the sub-pages to find out more; I think that you should be putting this stuff on the [[property law]] page.
:As for the Bubble Act, the first page of that article states it: strict controls on promoters, no companies without a charter. The Bubble Act itself says the same. Again, I find you're being deliberately contrary, and my estimation of you has once again deteriorated. I don't know if you do this for fun, but I don't find it funny. Just bloody annoying. And as for your antics on the [[competition law]] page, you're doing the same. You just reverted a passage which '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Competition_law&curid=666256&diff=230499305&oldid=230495397 again]''' has spelling and grammar mistakes. You are now officially a [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F troll], and I wish you would go away. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 23:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Explanation of he meant by "property is theft" and what by "property is freedom" is too complicated and too long for such short section. It would give undue weight to his opinion on property. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 19:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:That is why we have the footnotes.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

::Proudhon basically said that property is like a coin, whose two sides cannot be separated:
::"In respect of property, as of all economic factors, harm and abuse cannot be dissevered from the good, any more than debit can from asset in double-entry book-keeping. The one necessarily spawns the other. To seek to do away with the abuses of property, is to destroy the thing itself; just as the striking of a debit from an account is tantamount to striking it from the credit record."

::According to [[Albert Meltzer]] (even though he is a partisan source on this) in '' Anarchism: Arguments For and Against'': "It is true that, in a competitive society, only the possession of independent means enables one to be free of the economy (that is what Proudhon meant when, addressing himself to the self-employed artisan, he said "property is liberty", which seems at first sight a contradiction with his dictum that t was theft)." According to [[Colin Ward]], Proudhon considered property a theft when it was derived from conquest or exploitation and maintained by property laws and police, and he consider it a freedom when it was derived from natural right to a home and to the tools of a trade.

::However, I don't see how we could present Proudhon's views on property in any detail and preserve neutrality without presenting other, just as notable, views. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 15:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Yeah, you're right. Which is why the article was fine in the first place, and why you're just wasting everyone's time: mine especially, and why I wish you would just go away. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 16:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

{{POV-section|date=August 2008}}
::::No, article was not fine in the first place because it distorted Proudhon's view on property, presenting just one side of his argument. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 17:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

...and I wish he would go away. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 10:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

== Should views on economics go in the law intro? ==

[[User:Vision_Thing]] has again added the view of [[Friedrich von Hayek]] in the introduction that equality before the law is not the same as material equality, and that they contradict. He does this, as he says above, because he thinks the quote from Anatole France ("the law in its majestic equality...") is not neutral. He therefore apparently wants balance.
VisionThing has been pushing the views of Hayek on three pages, this, [[competition law]] and [[history of economic thought]], because he says that they are underweighted. I say that it should not be in the introduction because it is unnecessary, and Vision Thing is simply trying to promote his ideological standing.

The reason for the Anatole France quote is that it is as a counterweight to that by Aristotle. Aristotle says the rule of law is the best thing, France says it is complicated. The article itself says "it is not so simple", which does not endorse anyone.

Moreover, Hayek is not talking about law. He is talking about economic equality. The quote which Vision_Thing inserts is engaging in a complex argument which cannot be concluded there. I think there is a place for this, and it is the [[Law and economics]] page. It has a place, but not ''this'' page which is necessarily a summary. Vision_Thing has not been involved in editing that yet.

This is an introduction. It is in summary style. This article was approved by a very rigorous FA protest, and nobody has thought it was unbalanced, until Vision_Thing, who as I say, is pursuing the same agenda across three pages (perhaps more, where I'm not involved).
So that's why I'm explaining, again, removing the quote, again, and saying, again, that I wish he would go away. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 12:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

:Standards change during years and what once was FA today doesn't have to be. Anyway, Anatole France's quote can't act as a counterweight to that by Aristotle because they don't talk about same concepts. Aristotle's quote says that "the rule of law is better than the rule of any individual". Anatole France doesn't dispute that, he doesn't dispute benefits of the [[rule of law]], he disputes benefits of the [[equality under law]]. And those are different things. You can have the rule of law without the equality under law. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 14:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

::You aren't saying why Hayek is necessary. This is a general introduction. It is not about equality of resources. You can make your specific contributions to the Law and Economics page, or, in fact, the [[Jurisprudence]] page. What you haven't made any effort to do anything there? What? You haven't read Law, Legislation and Liberty? What? You just filch random quotes without understanding their contexts? What? You're just an ideologically driven pest? Yes, I wish you would just go away. I'm not interested in hearing your response. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 15:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Hayek's quote is necessary to balance France's quote, which is presenting the equality under law in a negative light. If you have some other quote that could do the same job, I'm open to suggestions. [[User:Vision Thing|-- Vision]] [[User_talk:Vision_Thing|Thing --]] 15:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

== Citations needed ==

Copied from the review: Although I see a few omisions of citations, this could have been handled on the talk page and would not require a review. Now, for the things that should be cited:
* 1) "The United Nations, founded under the UN Charter, is one of the most important international organisations. It was established after the League of Nations failed to prevent the Second World War." and the lines following.
:*Done. I also rephrased a bit. Wikidea should have a look! It would be interesting to deal about the issue of legal liability of persons for committing crimes against humanity (a modern and very interesting aspect of public international law) and the controversy over the International Criminal Court (or the role of the ad hoc International Criminal Courts for former Yugoslavia etc), but I don't know how we could talk about everything in this article! I see some mentioning of the International Criminal Court in another section.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 10:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::Reads fine to me. Thanks. :) '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 11:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
* 2) "This increases the number of disputes outside a unified legal framework. Increasing numbers of businesses opt for commercial arbitration under the New York Convention 1958."
:I'm sure I can get you a quote for this. It's such a broad statement though, that's it's virtually impossible to not be true! A good book (though I'm not a conflict of law's person) is Goode, McKendrick and Burrows (I think Burrows, or someone else), ''Transnational Commercial Law'' (OUP, 2007) in one of the later chapters, but I'll need to double check next time I'm at the library. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 00:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
* 3) "The leading judge, Lord Camden, stated that," {{done}}
* 4) "Lord Coleridge, expressing immense disapproval, ruled, "to preserve one's life is generally speaking a duty, but it may be the plainest and the highest duty to sacrifice it."" and what follows. {{done}}
* 5) "The boy sued the goldsmith for his apprentice's attempt to cheat him. Lord Chief Justice Pratt ruled that even though the boy could not be said to own the jewel," and what follows.
:I don't have an internet link for the case. But the case citation is there, and that is sufficient for any interested reader to find it in the library. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 11:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
* 6) Law#Further disciplines section should have some links, or one reference at the top to show where this list can be found, etc.
* 7) Law#Legal systems would need a source at the end, all though it is general, it would be nice to link a general source or a couple provided later. After that, there are only a few scattered spots. Less than 20 total citations needed, which is easily fixed.
: I don't quite understand these two. Did you mean that we should have footnotes to say the subjects exist, or for what they are about or both? I just wrote these from what I know. I could provide a reading list, but it'd be quite long and tedious, and rather Anglo-centric. I think that it might be a case of footnoting for the sake of footnoting to add any more, though of course I welcome any (non-idiotic) additions anybody else wanted to make. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 11:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:*I mainly agree. What I'll do is to link any special issues I think it is interested to be added and sourced as I did with the EU's Human Rights Charter.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 11:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::The lists just need either one general source for the definitions, or individual sources for the definition, so we know where the definitions come from. Otherwise, people could alter them every which way. See below for some more. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 13:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:I hope this helps. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 18:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
::Cheers. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 11:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Some more:
* 1)"Nevertheless, Israeli law allows litigants to use religious laws only if they choose. Canon law is only in use by members of the clergy in the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Anglican Communion."
* 2) "Common law and equity are systems of law whose special distinction is the doctrine of precedent, or stare decisis (Latin for "to stand by decisions"). Alongside this "judge-made law", common law systems always have governments who pass new laws and statutes."
* 3) "Christian canon law also survives in some church communities. The implication of religion for law is unalterability, because the word of God cannot be amended or legislated against by judges or governments." Find a quote. Also, Canon law is still a major thing within the Catholic Church, which is 1.3 billion people.
:*Yes, but it is in use only by members of the clergy. The orthodox canon law (600,000,000 people) the same!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 17:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::Quite incorrect. The Catholic Church has lay lawyers. The canon law is also used in determining marriages in certain situations, annulments in many situations, and certain removals/joining the Church among other things. There is a Canon Law school for the Catholic Church at Catholic University of America that trains clergy and lay lawyers. There are many other Canon Law schools. Its a very important field. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Hmmmm ... The canon law is used in determining marriages within the Catholic Church's life I think, but in most Catholic countries the state has its own legal provisions about marriage, divorce etc. (sometimes influenced indeed by Catholic Canon Law as in Italy or Ireland) But this is no "official law" (a Catholic in France can take divorce and marry again - now if he wants the approval of his church, he will hire a great canon law lawyer and he will try to prove that his marriage should be annulled by the Church - but this is a church issue!). In Greece there are also many (run by both the state and the Church) Orthodox canon schools training priests, and there are also many lawyers specialized in canon law (and a post-graduate program in law school I was admitted but never went!). But this does not change its limited competence. Canon laws are important within the life of a religious group, but they get less important at a state law level (Islamic law is a different story).--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 10:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Depends, because Canon lawyers are used when a government official wants to make a political stance and not be kept from communion. Biden and Pelosi right now have been told that they aren't to receive communion for their stance on abortion, and if they wanted to appeal they would have to go to a Canon lawyer. It is just something not widely known outside of the Catholic Church. Regardless, I just wanted to make sure that you realize that it isn't a dying practice. :) [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 13:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Of course, I understand! Don't forget that I live in a country where the influence of the church is also very important, and in the past threats for not receiving communion have been also articulated (e.g. against the director [[Theodoros Angelopoulos]]) or even implemented (against [[Nikos Kazantzakis]]); they have been also articulated between ecclesiastical leaders as well (Bartholomew against Christodoulos of Greece or Alexios of Russia against Bartholomew of Constantinople).--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yannis is right. Canon law is almost entirely irrelevant, a relic of the past, not important in anyway whatsoever to anyone in a country with a Christian population. The church has had no power to enforce canon law on anyone since the Reformation. Religious "laws" are essentially a matter of contract, so people can opt into a particular regime, say for divorce disputes, the same as companies might do in commercial arbitration. If we were going by weight of who these things mattered to, then religious law would be about two sentences out of the whole page. Canon law might make a comma in the sentence! '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Islamic law is however indeed a more complex law. It is characteristic that even in countries trying to modernize themselves, such as Egypt, courts are constitutionally obliged to examine the adherence of state laws to Sharia!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I'm sorry, Wikidea, but I have already proven that horribly ignorant and wrong. Furthermore, this page has to deal with Law as a history, not just the modern era, per Wikipedia policies, so your claims about it is even more ignorant. Please, don't speak where you really don't have a clue. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Ottava, you are wrong about canon law. This article has partly to deal with law as history and it does that in the relevant section. It also refers to canon law in the religious law section, but its scope is really limited nowadays. Even in the catholic church it is a law having to do with the priests and with the relations between the members of the religious community. That is all! That is all with all canon laws. Constitutions, laws etc. are not interested in canon law in western societies, and they have ceased to apply it.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 08:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not arguing for more inclusion into the page. I'm just trying to make it clear that its not some old, minor topic. Its still a living, breathing field, and it would be best if people acknowledge that. Anyway, this is off topic, obviously.[[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 15:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

* 4) First paragraph in history of law in legal theory.
:*Done.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 17:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
* 5) "The philosophy of law is also known as jurisprudence."
:*This is a generally known fact. Adding a citation here gradually leads as to overciting.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::Its a definition. If you don't add in a cite, someone may change it to fit their needs. Use a common law dictionary. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I think this might be an example of slight overkill. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
* 6) You forgot to mention Adam Smith as a theorist on Jurisprudence (he had some important theories).
:*Economic law is not my strongest faculty, but I had in mind Smith basically as a major economist; not legal theorist. Maybe, Wikidea has a better knowledge on this issue.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::No, Adam Smith isn't really anything to do with jurisprudence. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::With that one statement I almost want to oppose this being an FA, because it shows that you don't have a clue about Law. Please, if you are going to make such blatantly ignorant claims, just... don't. Okay? Adam Smith's lectures on Jurisprudence happen to be one of the most influential for modern Democracies, almost as influential as the ''Federalists Papers''. A collection of these lectures fill over 500 pages, and have been discussed in countless books on the nature of Jurisprudence. Seriously, you need to add in Adam Smith, and you need to stop acting like you know everything if you are going to make such blatant errors like that. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::It is your right to oppose Ottava, but try not to do it for the wrong reasons! About Smith: Admitting my ignorance, I did some google searching about Smith as a law professor. He never presented a comprehensive legal theory (and he never published the ambitious jurisprudence work he intended to), but he was indeed at his time an important jurist. I think that it is an exageration to argue that he was as influential as the ''Federalist Papers''. He was definitely not as influential as Locke, Hobbes, Kelsen or even Schmitt (whose theories present nowadays so many similarities with the neocons' theories), but he was indeed important and I think that it is no harm for this article to mention him. I just don't know yet what exactly to keep from his analyses&mdash;I did not find this striking theory that will impress me, but the good thing is I am still studying him!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::Sorry if I get a little too passionate about Smith. You have to keep in mind that his ''Theory of Moral Sentiments'' is a companion piece to works like Locke, Hobbes, etc, and that his works on Capitalism, combined with his works on Jurisprudence, defined the role of the government in a capitalistic society (i.e. when the government has the right to break up trusts, etc). I just think he needs a mention. :) [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 14:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
* 7) First paragraph of legal institutions and the end of the second paragraph.
:*Done.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
* 8) Second paragraph of Judiciary
:*Done.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
* 9) Beginning of first paragraph and second paragraph of Legislature
:*Again, I really don't know what to cite here. This is general knowledge, and particular and more specific arguments at the end of the first paragraph are cited. I'll add however a citation at the end of the second paragraph (although I am once again not convinced about its necessity).--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::You may think its general knowledge, however, it is a broad topic and would need a source. There should be a law intro somewhere that discusses this. Remember, if its not cited, people can argue about it or easily change it because they think that general knowledge says whatever else. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 19:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
* 10) Beginning of first paragraph and second paragraph of Executive
* 11) End of military and police
:*Done.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
* 12) "The word "bureaucracy" derives from the French for "office" (bureau) and Ancient Greek for "power" (kratos)."
:*Done.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 09:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
* 13) First and second paragraph of Legal profession, which makes 20 spots total.
:Okay, now [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law#Jurisdictions this] section needs to be worked down into the bottom. Why? Because of printing problems and that we keep those template boxes all the way at the end. If you want to have a summary section about it, write up a little paragraph and link to pages that are important. Just don't use those templates there. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 13:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
::I remember arguing for the templates to be there in the FAC. People said it was only WP:Style that said they should go down. I didn't know about printing. Are you sure it creates problems? What sort of problems? How many printers? I've not tried printing the page off myself. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Yeap, I remember your response to Sandy who raised the same issue! I don't have a clear opinion on the matter, and, in any case, I do not think it is a major issue. But if there are many concerns, you may think about implementing Ottawa's proposal.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

*Just generally, I think that it's nice of you to try being so helpful Ottava, but I do think it's slightly overdoing it, don't you? I mean, for things like the word "bureaucracy", isn't it a little ironic that we should officiously give a citation for a plain Greek translation? Yannis is doing an awful lot here, but I'm not certain he should need to go to so much trouble. I think that Wikipedia is not so untrustworthy that everything needs to be cited. And of course, if citations are just about trust, then how do you know whether to trust the selection of the citations, or the citations themselves, if anybody ever will double check them? Sometimes, it's reasonable for readers to look things up alone. That's what pisses me off so much about idiots like Vision Thing. They don't. You see this sort of hyper-footnoting on some of the politics and political figure pages (the latest example is John McCain's page) where virtually every sentence seems to be cited. It doesn't necessarily solve debate. In short, quantity is not quality. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 17:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:*I basically agree, but I think it was good I went on citing some parts Ottava proposed (and I thank him for that), because while searching for citations I had the chance to go through the bibliography, and add to the article (tweaks in most cases but an excellent "nutrition for thought") valuable things and information: good governance, modern aspects of the rule of law, civil society and its components etc. etc. Some of these were already covered, but I think that now the article is even more comprehensive&mdash;citing is my obsession, but I never do it just for the sake of citing, but in order to add to the main article' substance through this boring for most people research. Even Vision Thing's remarks about Islamic Law were useful, because I think that my rewriting of the relevant paragraph gives a more accurate overview of the modern status of the aforementioned law in Muslim countries (as well as the additions concerning the judiciary is China and Muslim countries). I said from the first moment that IMO this was not a good faith FARC, but some of the remarks led however to improvements.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::Oh yes, it's always ''definitely'' helpful to have advice about what might look a little scruffy. On China, so far as I understand, they're in the process of modernisation, which has meant taking on a mixture of German law (or 'rediscovering' it, partly inspired by Japan, which copied Germany's civil law too) with a relatively heavy influence from the States for corporate law. But it's really not yet a fully functioning legal system, in "rule of law" terms. What happened in the communist dictatorships was essentially that public law swamped private law; through the authority granted to officials there was always an inordinate amount of discretion (and therefore no security of contract or personal property or civil liberties) in the name of "public interest" (determined by anyone ''but'' the public!) over the individual. The problem still is that because a country's institutions are so riddled with unwritten deference to the powers above - corruption - that even though you put something down in legal substance, legal procedure is a very, very different issue. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold">[[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 00:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

== Improvements ==

Improvements are making the article look a lot stronger. I knew that this would quickly be accomplished. Keep up the good work. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:43, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
==Comments to Ceoil's copy-editing==
*"In some countries, [[religious law|religion]] informs the law." Because of my poor English I am not sure of the meaning of "inform" here, so I don't know how close it is in terms of meaning to the previous version: "Some countries continue to base their law on [[religious law|religious texts]]."
:'Base' is more accurate. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
*"[[Public international law]] concerns relationships between sovereign nations." It may concern relationships of more than two nations, of more that 190 nations (UN)! So, I don't know if "among" or "between" is better. The same question about "practice and treaties between sovereign nations".
:No openion. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
*"Civil law is the legal system used in most countries around the world today. In civil law the sources recognised as authoritative are, primarily, legislation—especially [[codification]]s in [[constitution]]s or [[statute]]s passed by government—and custom." You removed "secondarily"; however, it is important to note that&mdash;especially nowadays&mdash;custom is a secondary source not equal in importance with the primary one: the legislation.
:See below; unhappy with this whole section. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the rest of Ceoil's edits (until now!).--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:You wont offend me by disagreeing or reverting Yannis! I'm doing as best I'm able; which aint much....[[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

==Questions==
Sorry if these cmts are blunt and badly worded but I'm just after my ''third'' "please come back to wikipedia later" loss of a full 20 minute edit; so I'm just going to post my brief notes here, and wade back in to the ce. Eek.
:*The military and police of a state are sometimes referred to as "the long and strong arm of the law". --> stray sentance; neither 'long' nor 'strong' are explained. Probably best deleted.
::*Deleted.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:*''used as an instrument to underpin civil obedience, politics, economics and society'' --> is this exhaustive.
:*I''n general, legal systems can be split between civil law jurisdictions and common law and equity. The term civil law should not be confused with civil law as a group of legal subjects, as distinct from criminal or public law. A third type of legal system'' --> Imprentiable. Knowing nothing, I took the first sentance to define three types: civil, common and and equity. Why jurisdictions?
:*Each sub section should begin with a tight defintion, not a characteristic; eg "In civil law, the source is primarily legislation—especially codifications in constitutions or statutes passed by government, or accepted by custom.[1] Civil law is the legal system used in most countries around the world today" is unhelpful to the general and clueless reader. [[User:Ceoil|<font color="green">Ceoil</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ceoil|<font color="E45E05">sláinte</font>]]</sup> 23:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::*How can I define civil law! I can only present its characteristics and its differences from common law. Something the article does indeed.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Looking for the HTML error ==
I asked Dr pda if he knew what might be causing the error in the page that is bombing out his scripts: [[User_talk:Dr_pda#Foiled_script|he couldn't find anything]].

So, I moved the text to my sandbox, and started systematically deleting page elements until the scripts came back to my tool box. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox&diff=244329952&oldid=244329917 This is the deletion] that restored the scripts, so there's something wrong in the sources section. Next I restored the refs, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox&diff=244330489&oldid=244330342 tried only deleting the "2";] didn't work. Then I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox&diff=244330708&oldid=244330489 removed ref begin and end;] still doesn't work, so the problem is in the actual cite templates. Then I put everything else back, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox&diff=244331457&oldid=244331228 removed the sources only] to confirm; scripts work, so it's definitely in the cite templates. I couldn't identify it any further than that, but once I remove the citations, I can see that the readable prose is 7942 words and the scripts work. I've not had a problem with Dr pda's script on any other article, so there's something goofy going on here.

So, this page has some element that isn't working in IE7. I wonder if it's coming up against [[Wikipedia:Template limits]] or some other such strange thing. Nothing else I can do, but it could be causing other problems elsewhere, whatever it is. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 08:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't get it! I don't understand you, so I can't help! What you're writing is just Greek to me!!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 18:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Summary: there's some kind of problem somewhere in the article coding, it bombs out scripts and could be causing other problems we aren't yet aware of (on IE7), I've narrowed it down to the sources and can't take it any further, Dr pda may have more ideas, but if anything ever comes up in the future, the info above gives you as far as I was able to get on troubleshooting. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 18:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Problem solved. The URL in the reference
:::*(German) Savigny, Friedrich Carl von (1803). "Zu welcher Classe von Rechten gehört der Besitz?", Das Recht des Besitzes.
:::towards the end of the ''Printed sources'' section was broken; it should contain two double quotes ("), but the last one was missing. Spotting this was complicated by the fact that the first of these quote marks was already URL-encoded as %22. As to why this affects IE7 but not other browsers I have no idea; possibly the others have some sort of check for unmatched quotes. [[User:Dr pda|Dr pda]] ([[User talk:Dr pda|talk]]) 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:49, 11 October 2008



I generally check in every day or two.

Please leave a message, or, for more urgent issues, e-mail me.




Archive 1 25 March — 10 August 2005
Archive 2 10 August 2005 — 31 December 2006
Archive 3 2007
Archive 4 January — June 2008

Vote at Fête nationale du Québec (Saint Jean Baptiste Day)

Hi, I've set up a vote to try and resolve this here. As you've commented on the issue already, I wanted to ensure you take the opportunity to vote. Gabrielthursday (talk) 01:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've asked the dissenting editors to acknowledge the Wikipedia naming conventions that emphasize that article titles should be the ones that are most recognizable to English-speakers[1]. If they do not, I think we should ask for a Request for comment as the next step in solving this dispute, as such a refusal could constitute bad faith. It will require at least two editors to start the process. Thank you. --soulscanner (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Bishop

I'd talk to User:Chrisjnelson about that. He (and other WP:NFLers) are quarterbacking (no pun intended!) page moves from (football player) to (American football) or (gridiron football) if it's also a CFL player. Pats1 T/C 01:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I wasn't too descriptive in my AWB title. Since a User:Crash Underride added the parent cat American Football League players to a bunch of AFL player pages, I informed him that such a practice (see Category:National Football League players) is not usually done, and instead just the sub-cats (essentially) of Team X players is used. He added it to a bunch of articles, so I AWB'd it. Pats1 T/C 01:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's UNDERRIDE, and it's not USUALLY done, is there a rule saying that it's illegal? No, ok. Besides, why is there a category Category:National Football League players to begin with then??? Crash Underride 05:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Chill. Pats1 T/C 13:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Military history of Canada

Military history of Canada has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

"My" recent edits

Thanks for your note. I understand that you cannot verify this, but I did not make the edits in question. I suspect that my password had been guessed: I've changed it as a precaution. I'll try to be more vigilant about this. Thanks again for letting me know that this was going on-I truthfully had no idea. --Lkjhgfdsa (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Hi DoubleBlue, I noticed that you revert vandalism occasionally. Would you like me to grant your account rollback rights for you to use alongside Twinkle? Tell me what you think. Thanks. Acalamari 21:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rollback granted. I'm glad you understand that it's for reverting vandalism, and that abuse can lead to its removal. :) Good luck. Acalamari 23:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for correction at Delorimier

I don't know if you caught my later comment as quickly as you caught the original edit. I did some more checking up myself and found out that "Delorimier" was in fact correct. I went back to change them all again (I think you noticed that, before me, some were one spelling and some the other), and found you had got there already. Quick work! Berkowit28 (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Intrawest resorts

Thanks for letting me know of the discussion. I've responded there.   user:j    (aka justen)   01:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Re. entry of external link in entry for "Brentwood College School"

I tried adding a link to the site ourkids.net and you removed it. Ourkids.net offers pictures and other information unavailable elsewhere. Why is there no conflict of interest deletion for the link from the competing commercial site, topprivateschools.ca?

It is obvious that users find our site useful as they arrive from all different sources, including wikipedia, and we offer them the opportunity to make contact with a representative from the school.

All due respect -

Jim H —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.148.229 (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replied at User talk:99.229.148.229#External links. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Help with infoboxes

I couldn't find anything about this so I thought I'd ask a highly decorated user.
I want to use an infobox template, but I want to add a field that is not in the template.
Let's say I'm using the organization infobox template and I want to add a field called former name (the name the organization was given at first), which the organization template doesn't provide
If I was editing my own infobox, I would have done it like this | label1 = former name | data1 = Yoyoyo.
How can I do that, if I can do that ? U can edit my User:Jadbaz/sandbox sandbox if it makes it easier, I prepared it for this purpose, Thanks.
--JB (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How did u do that ? Did u edit the template infobox organization ?

--JB (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did here. DoubleBlue (Talk) 20:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DCB updates

Thanks for noticing. Regrettably, much plodding remains. --Big_iron (talk) 12:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Liberal Party candidates, 40th Canadian federal election

I have now commented on deletion discussion. As for my edits, I was attempting to provide sources to unsourced content that had been deleted in an attempt to clean up the article.Mr. No Funny Nickname (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I have also commented on deletion discussion. I appreciate your comments about notability. I would be more than happy to provide adequate reliable sources for a fair and balanced article but Bearcat has blocked my access to the original article on Heather Carter. I must admit that I am quite a novice here and I am uncomfortable with Bearcat's bullying. Heather Carter's article has been on Wikipedia since February, 2007, and, I thought, had been approved for content by IrishGuy. Without warning, Bearcat redirected the article with a comment to the effect that unelected candidates were unworthy of an article. I undid his redirection. He threatened me. Later Mr. No Funny Nickname also undid the redirection. And, again, I was threatened. I do not know Mr. No Funny Nickname nor have I collaborated with him prior to this incident. I also object the Bearcat's involvement in editing Liberal party candidate's articles. He is a strong supporter of the NDP and as such I feel he should have the sense to recuse himself. Your help and guidance in helping to resolve these issues with Heather Carter's article would be very much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johncaron.ca (talk • contribs) 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Orlondo Steinhauer

I think offering a suggested interpretation of the reasons for his release is too subjective for the header. I'll compose a new version - I hope you agree. Dorrellc (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

The Original Barnstar
Thank you so much for the clean-up work you did on Weston, Ontario. A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I don't usually ask other people to fix articles that I could have fixed myself, but I've been down with a cold for several weeks, and just not feeling up to a big review and edit today. Thanks again for your help. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AfD nom of Chris Avenir

I've nominated Chris Avenir for deletion; please offer your comments here. Thanks! --Alinnisawest,Dalek Empress (extermination requests here) 22:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replace this image

Hi, as you added the conclusion to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Image placeholders, would you mind commenting on Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AmeliorationBot 2? Thanks, ~ User:Ameliorate! (with the !) (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much for passing along the heads-up on this issue! My comments on the bot discussion page. Hope all's well with you. -Pete (talk) 21:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for sending word of this. Sorry, I didn't see your message in time to comment on the bot discussion page, but it looks like there was a healthy discussion there. I learned a lot from that (exhausting) debate -- I hope not to get myself involved in something like that again, but if I do, I'll be smarter about it. best, Northwesterner1 (talk) 09:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Monarchy of Canada

DoubleBlue, though I'm sure your intentions are good, your last couple of edits to Monarchy of Canada have created large blank spaces in the article. Were you trying to fix something? --G2bambino (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've responded at my talk. Cheers. --G2bambino (talk) 02:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

200K

I so need a life... Bearcat (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Soundtrack for Scenario

Just letting you know that an article on the band still hasn't been created. I don't think the sources support notability either way, though. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 02:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Region restricted external link

Hi, the problem is that the link I removed is only viewable in Canada (and possibly the US). WP:ELNO states: Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users should be avoided. I hope that's clearer. Cheers, --JD554 (talk) 17:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is an easy way as it would be down to the website in question putting the information somewhere on their site. The only way to be sure is when someone (like me) notices they can't use the content. --JD554 (talk) 05:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!

Thanks for your message, I will be exploring the editing links in full over the next few days. Thought I had been signing my messages and adding editing summaries to my edits, but this is often late-at-night (2 am) work for me, so the occasional blank edit summary may slip by :)

Guinness323 (talk) 15:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HEY

I ONLII ACCIDDENTLI USED DA CAPS LOCK SO DONT DELTETE IIT! DATS NOT FAIR MAN, PUT IT BAK!


LATERZ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.112.43 (talk) 18:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signing

Hi! Thanks for signing, thats 5 now, and one step closer to World domination! --Climax Void ☭. —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Thanks

Thanks for this revert on my user page =) -Abhishek Talk 05:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re

You're welcome! :) Pinkadelica (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Prod

Hi DoubleBlue. Sure, didn't realize the edtsum contraction prod, for producer, could be taken to be mean Wikipedia:Prod. That would be a sticky wicket. Thanks Petersent (talk) 05:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notre Dame Regional

Thank you for keeping an eye out for a false entry '* Antonio Caso. - Defenseman - National Hockey League - Montreal Canadiens - Hockey'. I never entered this name & I'm not familiar with it. I'm an alumini of this school & I coach there also, and the names I've entered are well known in our trophy cases and I've made links to other areas of wiki, where possible, and external websites to prove their existance.Iota 9 (talk) 14:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks doubleblue. I love you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciyean (talk • contribs) 06:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Stockdale

Hey: could you read the explanation in the Talk page before blindly reverting the article? The removed quote screams "Urban Legend" rather than real facts, and is presented with scant evidence (A post on a random message board remembering Stockdale when he died). Stop putting it back until there's facts behind it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crock1701 (talk • contribs) 06:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AfD nomination of Beta Omicron Iota

An article that you have been involved in editing, Beta Omicron Iota, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beta Omicron Iota. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Unschool (talk) 05:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Thanks for reverting this piece of vandalism left on my talk page. That was one of the more fun ones, I put it at User:Useight/Complaints. Thanks again for your help. Useight (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Input

There is a post on WP:AN that you may or may not wish to comment on. Prince of Canada t | c 07:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

hey guy

Saw you moved western alienation to "mid Importance" Well I don't dispute the move, it wasn't really necessary, the only reason I commented was because it seemed "low" priority for western alienation in a canadian wiki project, basically summed up the crux of western alienation, ie that our interests are treated as low priority. TotallyTempo (talk) 02:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Football infobox

I know we've had some conflicts about the use of Template:Infobox NFLactive on CFL player articles, and I was wondering if there was anything that could be done to the template that would satisfy you to the point where we might be able to use it for both NFL and CFL players. I believe in the past you've said it was very "NFL-centric" or something to that effect, and you're right. However, I don't think there are any such features that cannot be altered. For one, I think we can change the NFL debut section to say "Professional debut" so that it could be used for any league, no matter where a guy started. We can also make CFL stat sections and a CFL link that will show up in addition to an NFL one if we want, instead of being replaced by the NFL one. Just let me know if this is a something we can work on. Either way, I am going to do some work on the template to make it more league-neutral. Despite its name, I always intended it to be usable for any league.►Chris NelsonHolla! 22:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well actually, the NFLActive one was the only one that was my idea. Banned user Jmfangio created both, but the active one was really only mine and that's the one I primarily work with since I'm focused on updating current players.
I'm going to have User:Pats1 unblock the template so I can make some of these changes. I'm going to do all the stuff I've said above, though if you have any other suggestions on changes or necessary additions to accompany other leagues, let me know.►Chris NelsonHolla! 22:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, just wanted to let you know that I made the changes I mentioned. Here is what it looks like.►Chris NelsonHolla! 02:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CFL

So hey, do you follow the CFL closely?►Chris NelsonHolla! 04:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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